Involved in the marriage?

[Decorative]

If you'd care to read my post I said it did impact but impact and involvement are two different things, not that an A exists in a bubble. A glass of water might help with the sarcasm going down a little better.

 

I did read your post.

 

My comment to Eleanor stands. Your reasoning is quite a step away from logical. The self centered nature of your comments surprised me- I just don't understand how a person can think like that.

[Summer Breeze]

No one is arguing the WS's ownership of their actions, but to say that the OW's hands are clean is absurd.

 

And yes, it is a convoluted reasoning and shows a self-centerdness to say that you would not tolerate a cheating husband and then involve yourself with a cheating MM.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you. As I've been accused of backing out when it gets touchy I'd like to say I'm happy to PM any real discussion of this if you, or anyone else, would like to. I don't want to take this thread OT any further.

[Summer Breeze]

I did read your post.

 

My comment to Eleanor stands. Your reasoning is quite a step away from logical. The self centered nature of your comments surprised me- I just don't understand how a person can think like that.

 

 

To me it's pue logic. One person can stop it or could have kept it from ever having happened. The WS. I don't understand how a person can not see that logic.

[Decorative]

To me it's pue logic. One person can stop it or could have kept it from ever having happened. The WS. I don't understand how a person can not see that logic.

 

yes. An affair doesn't happen without a WS.

 

But the WS cheats with someone. So someone else gets some responsibility, too.

 

Your logic fails.

 

Unless the WS just stands there alone, having an affair with an imaginary person. Then I guess they are the only party with blame. But in reality , where I live, the warm body they are cheating with, if they are aware of the marriage? bears some culpability.

[Furious]

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you. As I've been accused of backing out when it gets touchy I'd like to say I'm happy to PM any real discussion of this if you, or anyone else, would like to. I don't want to take this thread OT any further.

 

I believe this discussion on this thread is real enough.

 

I respect your point of view, regardless as to whether we agree to disagree.

[eleanorrigby]

To me it's pue logic. One person can stop it or could have kept it from ever having happened. The WS. I don't understand how a person can not see that logic.

 

And I don't understand how you can't see that 2 people could have stopped it. The OW/M could have backed away from the married person.

I resent her making that choice in a different way that I resent my husband making that choice.

 

There may be women walking around out there that told my husband "no!" and I send thanks out to the universe to them if they are there.

[Summer Breeze]

yes. An affair doesn't happen without a WS.

 

But the WS cheats with someone. So someone else gets some responsibility, too.

 

Your logic fails.

 

Unless the WS just stands there alone, having an affair with an imaginary person. Then I guess they are the only party with blame. But in reality , where I live, the warm body they are cheating with, if they are aware of the marriage? bears some culpability.

 

Where I live the person acting against their M is the culpable party. I could have cared less if my xH had 4 As or 1. He cheated and that was that. The act of betraying me and our M was done by him. My logic is perfect. I don't see any logic in placing any blame on any person other than the 1 who betrayed me.

[Summer Breeze]

And I don't understand how you can't see that 2 people could have stopped it. The OW/M could have backed away from the married person.

I resent her making that choice in a different way that I resent my husband making that choice.

 

There may be women walking around out there that told my husband "no!" and I send thanks out to the universe to them if they are there.

 

I do agree 2 people could have stopped it. But the damage is done because the WS had an A. He could go out and find someone else or have a series of ONS. The choice is the WS at all points and his choice is the one that matters.

[eleanorrigby]

I do agree 2 people could have stopped it. But the damage is done because the WS had an A. He could go out and find someone else or have a series of ONS. The choice is the WS at all points and his choice is the one that matters.

 

And (IMO) the damage of ONS, prostitutes, and/or OW/M that didn't know the MM/MW was married is different. Not less hurtful, but different.

[Furious]

Where I live the person acting against their M is the culpable party. I could have cared less if my xH had 4 As or 1. He cheated and that was that. The act of betraying me and our M was done by him. My logic is perfect. I don't see any logic in placing any blame on any person other than the 1 who betrayed me.

 

I was once bullied in sixth grade, the bully's best friend did not punch or kick me, just stood there and watched. The best friend's reasoning was that she didn't hurt me directly, and the bully was nice to her, so it didn't matter who the bully was mean to as long as she was nice to her best friend.

[Summer Breeze]

I believe this discussion on this thread is real enough.

 

I respect your point of view, regardless as to whether we agree to disagree.

 

Thank you Furious and I know it doesn't sound it but I do respect BS who have reconciled. I don't understand it any more than I understand giving blame to someone other than the cheating party but I do respect it. I couldn't and I don't know if that was because I was young and stupid or because I knew I was too weak. I have a different viewpoint to others as far as who should have the blame but that doesn't mean I don't understand the feelings.

 

 

Sorry OP I said I'd bow out and go to PM. I will do that now.

[eleanorrigby]

I have a different viewpoint to others as far as who should have the blame but that doesn't mean I don't understand the feelings.

 

 

 

That's what I've been trying to say, to me it's not which one is to blame. I blame them both for the specific things each one did that hurt me.

[Decorative]

Where I live the person acting against their M is the culpable party. I could have cared less if my xH had 4 As or 1. He cheated and that was that. The act of betraying me and our M was done by him. My logic is perfect. I don't see any logic in placing any blame on any person other than the 1 who betrayed me.

 

Sweet.

 

So if you are married, and your husband and his mistress stab you with a plastic spork, the only person who is guilty, in your book, is your spouse?

 

Huh.

 

I don't grasp that sort of " perfect" logic. Bad deeds done against another human being are bad no matter what the relationship is. I am no less on the hook for my bad behavior if I claim- well, I did not know the person, or I personally didn't promise to hurt them.

[Decorative]

That's what I've been trying to say, to me it's not which one is to blame. I blame them both for the specific things each one did that hurt me.

 

Yes. BOTH. *nods head vigorously*

[alexandria35]

If you'd care to read my post I said it did impact but impact and involvement are two different things, not that an A exists in a bubble. A glass of water might help with the sarcasm going down a little better.

 

Okay so you weren't involved in your MM's marriage, you just had a huge impact on the marriage.

 

Is that better somehow?

[Summer Breeze]

As I said, I'm happy to carry this on in PM.

[Summer Breeze]

Okay so you weren't involved in your MM's marriage, you just had a huge impact on the marriage.

 

Is that better somehow?

 

 

It's not better and it's not worse. It's an explanation. The OP brought up involvement and I explained that my xHs OW had no involvement in my M and I had none in dMMs. The As that each of them had impact on their Ms. What would have been better is if my xH and my dMM had chosen not to have As.

[eleanorrigby]

Yes. BOTH. *nods head vigorously*

 

OW/OM want BS to take responsibility for our 50% of the state of the marriage. And I do. So I listened to his excuses and justifications for why he entered into an affair and devastated me. I didn't buy them, but I listened, always hoping I could catch the real truth in between, above and below all the words.

 

But the OW? What excuse did she have for her part in causing me the worst pain I've ever felt in my life? None. She just didn't give a $hit. She didn't give a flying fluck what happened to my mental health health. She didn't give a fart in the wind about my kids crying at night. She didn't care at all. And I've got issues with her hatefulness towards me when I had never met her before in my life.

[woinlove]

While I agree impact and involvement can be different, not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. The AP impacts on the M while in the A and can impact on the M by telling or not telling the BS.

[Summer Breeze]

While I agree impact and involvement can be different, not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. The AP impacts on the M while in the A and can impact on the M by telling or not telling the BS.

 

The OP asked about OW/OM claiming not to have any involvement in the M. I simply put forward that involvement is hands on in the M and I never had experience of my xHs OW doing that or myself doing it. The A obviously impacted but there was never any involvement in the M itself. To me it's a clear difference and if an OW/OM decides to go tell the BS, at any given time, that is involvement. That's why I brought up the difference. To me it's two very different things but I'm sure not everyone will agree with that.

[eleanorrigby]

Involvement, impact, they both amount to the same thing to me.

 

I felt a "hidden hand" in my marriage. Everything from her work schedules to her dental appts affected me.

 

If my husband had an argument with someone at work, he could feel free to tell me about it and we could bitch together about what happened.

 

If he had an argument with her and came home in a crappy mood, I was left to wonder what the hell was his problem? What had I said or done lately that I must have forgotten about? It has to relate to me(i was thinking) because otherwise why won't he talk to me about it?

 

Same difference if he came home in a great mood and no explanation for it and no origin that I could discern. Even though I would be happy to see him happy, the question marks took a good measure of the good feelings away.

 

Later into the affair, her "pumping him up" to stand up to me and all my bitchiness. Me wondering why he just came home spoiling for a fight, but yeah, if you wanna fight, let's go!

 

Then the two of them later on discussing our fight, verifying that I really am a total bitch, and so and and so on....

 

Her hidden presence in my life totally affected my relationship with him, for the negative, because I was constantly adjusting myself with him based on unknown factors. That's crazy-making.

 

So, no, I'm never going to accept the idea that the OW had no affect on my marriage and was not directly involving herself in it.

[Decorative]

Yes. Exactly, Eleanor. The contrast affect between the spouse and the affair partner usually ends up hurting the betrayed spouse.

 

For all the times I found myself on the receiving end of a discussion that escalated into an argument I couldn't follow and he would leave the house for " space"- which was code for seeing her. I would be bewildered and confused and doubting my own reality. Because of his entanglement- which takes two people- with her.

 

I just cannot comprehend a position where it's asserted that there is not weight on the affair partner. If they know of the marriage, they are doing harm. They may not be a witness to all of the harm, but they are participating , nonetheless.

[beenburned]

ER & Decorative,

 

OMG! Were you at my house back then?

 

You BOTH described exactly how my H was acting!

 

D-day was almost a relief, as I then knew I was not crazy or imagining things!

Edited November 11, 2012 by beenburned
too many letters

[Decorative]

ER & Decorative,

 

OMG! Were you at my house back then?

 

You BOTH described exactly how my H was acting!

 

D-day was almost a relief, as I then knew I was not crazy or imagining things!

 

I agree! Then I knew I was not, in fact, going slowly insane.

 

I swear. There's a script in infidelity. You find so many things that just repeat in everyone's situation.

[Mme. Chaucer]

To me, for an ow to say that the marriage is separate and apart from her relationship with mm is like ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

Especially those who go so far as to identify themselves as "OW" and post on the Internet in areas specifically for OW.

 

If the marriage had not a thing to do with her, why doesn't she just hang out while it's happening and carry on with her life when he's otherwise engaged, and just treat what they have as a sort of relationship like any other? But, around here, anyway, there is a great deal of emphasis on the initials: O W. And what he is or isn't doing with his wife is a major point of interest and discussion. As is, often, the state of his marriage.