Shared her in an MMF, now I'm going crazy

[ottavit16]

I've been FWB with my exgf lately. In a many ways, it feels like an open relationship without a title. AFAIK, we've been exclusive for the last 6 weeks. But I suspect that's about to change... her "loyalty" was just tested the other night. Let me give some details.

 

Her and I "dated" over 6 months ago, started as LDR/FWB situation but she literally begged to be my gf. I had just come out of a really bad breakup (so had she) so I had real reservations, but decided to give it a shot. I thought I'd found "the one" - amazing cook, cleans, closer to my age (23 vs me, 2, and ****ing top notch sexually. Bisexual, anal, threesomes, BDSM, you name it, this girl's a freak. But between distance me going AFC (becoming too comfortable), she broke up with me. I realize that it was only infatuation, and I moved on.. or so I thought. I saw other women, I sharpened my game. 3 months of NC, then she moves to where I am, calls me to hang out, and before long we're ****ing.

 

We've been doing this for about 10 weeks. She always got hung up on the sex, attributing this mainly to having to hide it from her ex boyfriend before me - the "love of her life". He contacted her shortly after her and I broke up, and were planning to get back together. Two weeks ago she "broke up" with him (but remained in contact), and things definitely changed with her and I. Things got more intimate, less secretive, and she started coming over a lot more. The majority of time, she initiates contact/hangouts. Sex is getting better, and more frequent. I accept that like before, this is just a rebound and I should take it for what it is - companionship and sex.

 

I know that in the back of my mind I should not fall for her again. I'm trying to follow all this pua advice: respect myself first, let her bring 'what are we' up, don't get needy, give great sex... I had been trying to keep my emotions in check, and I've been pretty good at it until now... the events of last night have got me really thinking.

 

Long story short, we had an MMF threesome last night with a casual friend of mine (and hers lately). It was very weird for me at first seeing her penetrated by another guy, but after I got into it myself it was actually really hot. Well, to make things worse this is a guy she's had a big crush on (big blue eyes, and a big dick) so figuring she'd **** him sooner or later anyway, I decided to bring him in for the threeway. She's taking this as a green light to **** him on her own, although my actions have shown that this bothers me (the look on my face when she talks about it). The thing is, I'm really NOT okay with her ****ing him without me, and I'm not sure how to communicate this without coming off as insecure/jealous. Perhaps this is just a common fear people have in the aftermath of threesomes. How does this sound:

 

"Listen, what happened the other night was a lot of fun, but I'm really not okay with you and him ****ing around without me."

 

The stupid thing is, she should personally know better, since she was in my shoes once. In the past, she had a threesome with her then current boyfriend and a chick friend of his. Turns out that boyfriend broke up with her and started dating the other girl. Maybe I can use this to instill a bit of empathy?

 

Another thing she was talking about was this traveling friend of hers, another 3rd party we had considered for MMF. I asked her if she was planning to mess around with him, and shes like oh yeah, that's a possible relationship you know? This makes me think she's either a)trying to make me jealous or b)using me until someone with actual relationship potential comes along.

 

It made me feel physically ill. Sharing her with another guy, I admit was actually kind of fun. But aside from that, I want her all to myself. See, the biggest problem her and I had when we actually dated was the distance. I insisted to wait until it was a non-factor before actually dating, and we agreed to an "open relationship". Big ****ing surprise that failed. I turned into a chump and she found a new guy at work that she ended up dating over the summer (even bigger chump). Obviously now that distance isn't a factor, things are going pretty well. I never thought she'd ****can her other ex, considering their relationship, but she did.

 

Part of me wants to force the question, but I know better. You know.. "what are we"? On one hand, I think sometimes I am just being used. On the other, it seems she's genuinely quite fond of me, and getting very attached. The classic case of mixed signals. All I know is that at this moment, I've never wanted to be exclusive with her these last ten weeks as I do right now. I mean, it feels so much like a relationship already, right now it's like I wanna say "either **** this **** or we get back together and see if it works" but I know I can't. She dumped me, she has to bring it up. A female friend advised me that if I was serious about her, then to stop seeing other women... but from a PUA perspective, that seems counterproductive.

 

So I figure if nothing else, this is a good loyalty/trust test. If she starts ****ing the other guy, especially behind my back, she's getting the axe. I'll find out from him if I need to. Matter of fact, next time I see him I'm going to ask to see his text conversations with her. Then I'll know where I stand. In the meantime, I would really appreciate any encouragement/support/advice/critcism/insults on what I can do. It's really wracking my brain.

[NoMoreJerks]

I would just leave her at this point...

 

On a related note, now you guys know what it's like for a woman when a guy wants her to do a threesome with another woman. Is the desire to realize a fantasy really worth it? Anyway, sorry to hear that it's gone so badly for you. I would just walk away from this and try to move on, and find someone you can have a less hard time with.

[ls32ssibm]

lol, use her as a piece of meat, but don't get into any sort of relationship with this chick.

 

 

I doubt you'll listen, but it can only go bad places. Find a chick worth dating that you don't have a shady history with.

[ls32ssibm]

I would just leave her at this point...

 

On a related note, now you guys know what it's like for a woman when a guy wants her to do a threesome with another woman. Is the desire to realize a fantasy really worth it? Anyway, sorry to hear that it's gone so badly for you. I would just walk away from this and try to move on, and find someone you can have a less hard time with.

 

As a straight male, the only FFM I'd ever do is with two bisexual chicks so they can work each other over too. I don't want the pressure of FFM with two straight chicks. At least MMF can double as live-action porn.

[Els]

Since when did 'loyalty' and 'FWB's exist in the same sentence? You wanted a FWB/open relationship arrangement, and you're having one. End of story. If you're not happy with it, re-negotiate the terms, or leave your F-buddy.

[shayla]

I have to agree with this. You were owed no loyalty. You were not in a relationship. In a FWB situation, you are BOTH free to do who and what you want, or you just want to be the only one doing others?

 

That is insecure and selfish.

[ottavit16]

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies so quick. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

Perhaps I am delusional if I really think she's been exclusive with me for the last 6 weeks or so - about when she started directly booty calling me. But she's upfront told me about her desires and intentions for other guys. Several weeks ago I got into a FFM-type situation with her and her best friend, J. I haven't slept with J since (I don't even want to, but I could), but we've been pretty close otherwise and J doesn't think there's been anyone else either.

 

I agree with the piece of meat vs relationship thing. I just have to get all my different sources of thinking up to par with it. I believe this girl is the type to rarely/never be single, so she treats any guy she's ****ing like a boyfriend. Which is where the mixed signals are likely coming from.

 

The whole "loyalty during FWB" thing is to see if she's worth any more kind of investment or not. If she can maintain loyalty and honesty then there's a possibility of salvaging an actual relationship down the road, but more than likely not.

 

As far as more threesome talk goes, a few days ago her straight female friend suggested a FFM with us. Everyone's on board, it's just a matter of when. You'd better believe I'm going to be pushing for that to happen ASAP.

[ottavit16]

To be fair, the agreement was: we're free to **** other people, but we have to tell each other if it happens. That was made about 6 weeks ago. Aside from my threesome with her and J, I haven't slept with anyone else - I did tell her if I went to visit my friend in NYC something might happen. She had another friend who was supposed to visit but cancelled and told me the same.

 

I'd like to re-negotiate the terms, but it would feel selfish at this point because now she HAS a good opportunity, and knowing the guy it won't last too long anyways. He basically just left his girlfriend of 8 months to try something with a different girl, so during the transition where he was single I invited him to the MMF. So I'll let it play out, and I see one of a few things happening:

 

1)Nothing changes. Her and I keep doing our thing, considering bringing him or another guy/girl into the bed here and there.

2)They start hooking up, but don't hide it from me. Eh...

3)They start hooking up, and she hides it and he admits. Peace, bitch.

4)They start hooking up and both hide it. See #3, except malice towards my friend as well.

 

I could play the petty games and just start going after J, but I respect myself at least enough to not do that.

[Janesays]

You both sound so immature. Grow up and have an honest talk with her. She's a human being, not a chess piece that needs to be manipulated and judged by you. Talk to her or let her find someone with the balls to tell her how he feels and what he wants. Not a coward that wants her, but would rather seethe silently than to go after her.

[Negative Nancy]

now you guys know what it's like for a woman when a guy wants her to do a threesome with another woman.

 

very good point, any guy that asks for a threesome is basically asking for a permission to cheat and should be kicked to the curb.

 

Anyway, sorry to hear that it's gone so badly for you.

 

I don't feel sorry for him at all, he got what was coming to him.

[ottavit16]

First off, I agreed to the threesome because it was HER fantasy to be in one where the focus was on her. She's had several FFM threesomes in the past, most of which turned out badly especially the one I mentioned in my last post. I wanted her to be pleased and have a great time.

 

Second, how many of you read that until 2 weeks ago, she was planning on getting back with her ex-boyfriend? Anything beyond FWB was pointless, because she wasn't emotionally available, and probably still isn't.

 

I actually tried to have a serious discussion with her last night. Our arrangement came up on conversation, and she said that now that the threesome had happened she was free to sleep with him whenever she wanted. I said what about me and other girls and she said as long as you bring them into the bed with us first. I laughed, and restated how she was free to sleep with whoever as was I, as long as we didn't lie about it. Then, with a serious tone I said "I'm trying to be serious now. Does the idea of me sleeping with other women bother you at all?" and after a short pause, she said "Whatever." Then silence.

 

What I'm getting (especially from the females on here) is to just sit down with her and get it all on the table. Tell her exactly how I feel and what I want, and put the games aside. Like you say, we're having sex, we should be able to have an honest conversation.

 

I appreciate all the replies, even if some of them I don't want to hear.

[MrCastle]

Although I would never do a MMF under any circumstances, I hate your guts for having a MFF threesome and complaining about your situation.

 

Hint--Not many people are able to have no strings attached threesomes.

 

Stop falling for this girl and just enjoy it for what it is.

[pteromom]

You are FWB. It is not an exclusive relationship. She can sleep with whomever she wishes.

 

You say she treats anyone she sleeps with like a boyfriend, but that's a difference between men and women. Women (in general - there are always exceptions) enjoy all the things that come WITH sex too - the cuddling, the intimacy, the kissing, the connection. So just because she is enjoying ALL that stuff doesn't mean she sees you as her exclusive bf.

 

Men, on the other hand, are happy (in general - there are always exceptions) to just have sex without any of the other features of a relationship.

 

So you have a few choices...

 

- Keep doing what you are doing, enjoy the sex, and know that she's going to be sleeping with other people.

 

- Have "the talk" with her. Tell her you have feelings for her and want to be her boyfriend, not just her f*** buddy. See what she says.

 

- Walk away and find someone who wants to be exclusive (knowing you'll likely be giving up your threesomes.)

[ottavit16]

I'm not complaining at all about an MFF situation. It's the male MALE female threesome that's got me a little twisted. Like an above poster said, I put myself in the position of the female in an MFF situation. I think many of the women/girlfriends/wives that agree to these things do it for one of two reasons - they either want to experiment with another woman, or make their man happy and bring spice to the sexual relationship. Of course, a possible consequence of that is that their man has more fun with the other girl than her, and subsequently leaves her for the other girl. Watching your s/o in any circumstance have sex with someone else takes a lot of guts.

 

And the exclusivity that keeps being brought up - I am aware that neither of us are exclusive. That's really not the problem. The problem is that my feelings on the matter have changed to where I'd rather it be a "Traditional Open" relationship, where neither of us sleeps with other people unless it's in a threesome. Having "the talk" seems quite inevitable at this point. I'm just not sure how to go about it. I want it to come from a place of strength, and not weakness. My own insecurities are hanging me up. It's a pretty good arrangement otherwise, but I'm catching feelings. I've been trying to find someone else that would be more traditional/exclusive but with no real success. I also have the suspicion that any continued FWB with this girl is 'hanging me up' on her, and not allowing me to really pursue other women. See, I don't WANT anyone else.... let me quote something a psych major said to me recently:

 

"You shouldn't turn away from feelings that you have for someone. It will only make relationships less successful. Turning to others to fill a void is not the right way to go. Because no one will fit the standard you have already subconsciously set."

 

That's why I feel "the talk" is inevitable, and why I'm going to have to be the one to bring it up. If I'm really hung up on her, and still sleeping with her, I won't be able to find someone that fulfills what I really want because I'll keep comparing the new girl to her.

 

pteromom, of your choices it seems like the first two are my best options right now. In a way, I'd like to get this sexual adventure/experimentation stuff done now before I get into a serious relationship with someone else, or I'll always have that "what if" feeling, you know?

[dasein]

The operative fact in all this is that she broke up with you when you were first dating. Then after three months of NC, she comes back around and drops crumbs. This kind of situation is almost never going to end well for the dumpee. What changed in those three months? If it wasn't her coming back telling you she had made the worst mistake of her life, and that it eats at her every day, in an extremely convincing way, you are still the dumpee. Not just "hey lets hang out and f-ck." Still time to move on to other options.

 

All the sex/threesome stuff is just noise IMO. She dumped you before, she will do it again. Stop settling for crumbs. When they say "over" it's -over- until something fundamental has changed in you or in them. Outside of strong evidence of that, you have to move on and ignore attention seeking, back burner boomerang jive. Good luck.

[Balzac]

My read was the primary change was geographic proximity.

Total agreement from me on the "noise".

[dasein]

My read was the primary change was geographic proximity.

Total agreement from me on the "noise".

 

Exactly, and if that's all that changed, it's still DOA, no matter how dumpee feels and no matter what dumper says.

[NoMoreJerks]

very good point, any guy that asks for a threesome is basically asking for a permission to cheat and should be kicked to the curb.

 

 

 

I don't feel sorry for him at all, he got what was coming to him.

Oops, yeah, about the second bit, I was in a rush, and didn't read the whole post (as it was long), and didn't see that he wanted a FWB with her and then got pissed off / jealous during MMF. That's utter BS, and he deserves what he got. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. The whole thing reminds me of my ex: wanted a FWB, not a relationship; wanted a FFM threesome from me; when he was away, was always paranoid that I might be sleeping with other guys, and kept mssging me and saying "I hope you're alone in bed; unless it's a girl you are with." Uh, so I am only allowed to do what he fantasizes about? He wanted a FWB because he didn't want to be "controlled", but he wanted to control ME? And I was supposed to treat it as a relationship when it came to my desire to sleep with / date other men, but not when it came to his desire to socialize and sleep with whores in Thailand? What a dick.

Edited November 14, 2012 by NoMoreJerks

[ottavit16]

Yeah, the geographic change was the primary thing. Its also been more time since our respective breakups - remember, we were both fresh out of bad relationships. The other part of the breakup was me being an alcoholic partygoer who wanted to sleep with multiple women - I've been clean/sober for 5 months now, and she complimented me on it awhile ago "I like the sober you". I've also not slept with any other woman since she's been back, save for two incidents - a "threesome" with her and her friend, and another when she was away for a weekend (having sex with someone else as well).

 

Translation? I've never slept with another woman when she was available. Ever.

 

NoMoreJerks, why do I "deserve what I got" exactly? I didn't get jealous/upset DURING the MMF, but afterwards I did. Because I allowed it to happen? She could very well have just slept with him on her own, but instead wanted two guys at once. Now she's taken it as a green light to go bang him on the side, which is what makes me uncomfortable.

 

Dasein, you're probably right. FML... Btw, is your name a reference to Csikszentmihalyi?

[Balzac]

Congrats on 5 months of sobriety. That's a huge factor to leave out of your story.

[ja123]

I said what about me and other girls .... I laughed, and restated how she was free to sleep with whoever as was I, as long as we didn't lie about it. Then, with a serious tone I said "I'm trying to be serious now. Does the idea of me sleeping with other women bother you at all?" and after a short pause, she said "Whatever." Then silence.

 

2 things: What was said here that was a lie. What wasn't said here that was an omission.

 

1) "I laughed, and restated how she was free to sleep with whoever as was I"

 

I think you're lying to yourself (and her). Is this really what you want?

 

2) "Does the idea of me sleeping with other women bother you at all?" and after a short pause, she said "Whatever." Then silence."

 

So, why didn't you speak up when she went silent? Why didn't you say, "I'm developing feelings for you, and I'd like to explore the possibility of being in an exclusive relationship with you?"

[dasein]

Dasein, you're probably right. FML... Btw, is your name a reference to Csikszentmihalyi?

 

Heidegger made up so many words, I've no idea if that's one or not. Definite world class spelling bee word though! Gonna google it now.

 

EDIT: Oh, I see it's a person, sorry no, just a plain ole Heidegger fan.

[ja123]

Congrats on 5 months of sobriety. That's a huge factor to leave out of your story.

 

 

It is a huge factor to leave out of the story.

 

I went through a time of breaking an "addiction", and my attention for a period had turned to sex. I was a lone wolf-ess, though.

 

It isn't (the addiction, the multiple partner sex), ultimately, who I am at my core.

 

Like Dasein said, there's a lot of noise.

 

P.S. Congrats on being sober.

Edited November 14, 2012 by ja123

[ottavit16]

Thanks Balzac, about the sobriety. Appreciate it.

 

I've been thinking a lot about this (obviously) and here's what I'm thinking of saying in the talk:

 

"You're the only woman I want to sleep with, unless it's in a threesome." (This has been implied by me before)

 

"Do you ever see this being more than what it is?"

 

"As much as I like this arrangement, what I'm really looking for now is a girlfriend. That's the only reason I'm pursuing other women, because I don't think you'll want the same from me."

 

"I'm not in love with you, but I'm falling for you. If you can't say the same, then that's as far as we go."

 

"Any problems we had in the past, I think we could have worked out if we weren't so far from each other. Now that distance isn't an issue, we've been resolving issues and spending more and more time together. I don't know if it would work, but I think it's worth a try."

 

"I really like just hanging out with you. You're smart, beautiful, adorable and you make me laugh. I like making you smile, and being there for you when you need me. I get along with your friends. We both like to do the same thing on Friday nights. And as you know, I absolutely cannot keep my hands off you. You've got your flaws and issues, but everyone does, and I can accept them."

 

Not sure which of those statements to lead with, but some could be responses to what she says as well. Of course, I could just be patient... show my feelings through actions and not words, or just keep doing the same thing I've been doing seeing where it goes. But many of you on here enforce that a talk seems necessary at this point, based on my story. Like I said, I have a *suspicion* that she may want more or have feelings as well, but that's all it is - suspicion.

 

I think her actions of late show that she likes several different guys, and is trying to find one that will "fill the void" left by her main exboyfriend. I will admit, when she got here, she slept with at least 4 guys in the first month (that I know of) and chose me as the regular. I think some of this is due to convenience (I am financially well off, and have my own apartment - this is a college town you know)

[ottavit16]

I didn't see your post there before my last reply, ja123. The answer to your question? Fear, most likely. It was during a car ride, I was driving. I guess I was trying to gauge her behavior in the days following the threesome, and not sure if I wanted to directly bring it up. The replies on here have given me a bit more confidence in doing so.

 

I say to myself all the time "you could lose her any day. Be prepared for that." Spilling my guts will certainly put that to the test... in fact, I doubt that she'd want to stop completely even if I do have feelings and she doesn't. But I'm tired of not knowing where I stand.