Eve Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 If everyone wants some entertainment, anyone remember this era of Christian talk radio? That was interesting. I am wondering how easy it is to leave such (satanic) organisations? From the Youtube clip, it looks like image is very symbolic to their practice, which is not something easily altered. Also if that is where a person gets their sexual gratification from, that would be a hard bond to break. I have seen things on the internet about people finding it hard to leave or getting bumped off due to the criminal elements to their rituals - but it is hard to say whether any of it is actually true or if the ones coming forward are just a bunch of attention seekers. Take care, Eve x Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I have seen things on the internet about people finding it hard to leave or getting bumped off due to the criminal elements to their rituals - but it is hard to say whether any of it is actually true or if the ones coming forward are just a bunch of attention seekers. A very good friend of mine (a lawyer and a licensed, qualified forensic consultant) advises the police on supposed Satanic crimes because there are many self-styled Satanists out there doing really horrible things without being a part of any organized group, "church" or organization. They are into the shock value and rarely have a full understanding of the philosophy or the core values. They take aspects of it - or parts they think they understand - and commit crimes in the name of said religion. In the cases my friend has been involved with, 90% of the time the crimes that have been investigated have been caused by teenage boys who are exactly what you are describing: Attention Seekers. Hence the bad rap the religion gets. John Q. Public would be very surprised by the people involved in occult practices. We keep it hidden for exactly these reasons; it is misunderstood and maligned and we are often accused of crimes we not only did not commit, but are committed by those with no understanding of the forces they are attempting to unleash. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 That was interesting. I am wondering how easy it is to leave such (satanic) organisations? From the Youtube clip, it looks like image is very symbolic to their practice, which is not something easily altered. Also if that is where a person gets their sexual gratification from, that would be a hard bond to break. I have seen things on the internet about people finding it hard to leave or getting bumped off due to the criminal elements to their rituals - but it is hard to say whether any of it is actually true or if the ones coming forward are just a bunch of attention seekers. Take care, Eve x Yeah, it is interesting. It's been years, but if I remember the guitar player (his real name is Bruce Alan Breeding) left the group to join a neo-nazi organization...something to that effect. The singer was a priest for the church of satan, confirmed by LeVey. But I'm pretty sure he resigned as he didn't want to be a part of any organized religion. He's still a satanist though. Acheron is still a popular death metal band though... Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 A very good friend of mine (a lawyer and a licensed, qualified forensic consultant) advises the police on supposed Satanic crimes because there are many self-styled Satanists out there doing really horrible things without being a part of any organized group, "church" or organization. They are into the shock value and rarely have a full understanding of the philosophy or the core values. They take aspects of it - or parts they think they understand - and commit crimes in the name of said religion. In the cases my friend has been involved with, 90% of the time the crimes that have been investigated have been caused by teenage boys who are exactly what you are describing: Attention Seekers. Hence the bad rap the religion gets. John Q. Public would be very surprised by the people involved in occult practices. We keep it hidden for exactly these reasons; it is misunderstood and maligned and we are often accused of crimes we not only did not commit, but are committed by those with no understanding of the forces they are attempting to unleash. Still, there are specified rituals which encourage crimes, no?. That I find disturbing. Researching Crowley he is said to have been involved in child sacrifice and that to me is beyond anything that can be deemed as acceptable. This must all be a pain in the arse to investigate for child protective services in the US. The paperwork must be ****ing horrendous! All in all, I find the fact that the said rituals being hidden to be a massive indicator of harm. I mean, I asked you what the initiation involved and you straight up told me I could not know! I think this is part of the appeal of such practices. .. Anyhow, I have concluded that this is something white folk enjoy mostly, lol. Please, black people know to stay away from all that.. Hence the links to the Illuminati. But life goes on. it has been interesting to take a peek into what is only really depicted in horror films. Revelation and the concept of hell makes so much more sense now to me too! I am glad to be at greater peace with all that as previously I thought maybe God was being a bit harsh with the whole eternal damnation thing. Not anymore. The direction to destroy nations who called upon the same demons mentioned in this thread also now makes sense too. The cross over is meticulous and I had no idea just how much. Seriously. The WHOLE thing makes sense Scripturally. I so am shocked! I do consider myself above making fun of you or owt like that so the above comments are not directed at you personally. Just take care Carrie. Seriously. OP, you too. .. Boy oh boy! Anyhow, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here is on in a bit. So back to my little life I go. Take care, Eve x Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 It's a figure of speech: "You ought to get on your knees and thank the Good Lord...etc..." Bethebutterfly, you are so sympathetic to non believers and so "unbiased" with regard to your faith that it makes me wonder sometimes.., Jesus was called a friend of sinners. He was criticized by religious leaders for that. However, he did not demand anybody to get on their knees and thank him for anything. Rather, one lady of her own accord washed his feet with her tears, lovely perfume, and her hair, out of a thankful heart. (Luke 7:36-50). I consider myself to be like that lady. I am a sinner saved by grace, and that makes me sympathetic to people others disdain. If you don't think I'm a true Christian, that's fine with me. Feel free to think what you want. God knows my heart and He is the one I strive to please. Peace and God bless Back to the topic, I firmly believe God loves Satanists and I have heard of some people involved in Satanism, who are now ex-Satanists who have accepted Jesus because of God's great love. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) Still, there are specified rituals which encourage crimes, no? None that I know of. Researching Crowley he is said to have been involved in child sacrifice and that to me is beyond anything that can be deemed as acceptable. No. No, no, no... Crowley's version of a "child sacrifice" is a form of sex magick that involves spilling a man's seed. Taken in a literal sense, he is "sacrificing the potential existence of a child" by not germinating his semen in a woman and creating a baby. He never killed a living child. Ever. See? That is exactly my point of people who misconceive of someone's writing without fully investigating the intent or history behind it. Without extensive study into the subject, you misinterpret what was written and make assumptions. Wrong assumptions at that. All in all, I find the fact that the said rituals being hidden to be a massive indicator of harm. I mean, I asked you what the initiation involved and you straight up told me I could not know! I think this is part of the appeal of such practices. I never said you could not know. I said that I was sworn to secrecy and could not tell. Of course you can know: Go through the initiations yourself to learn the secrets. Anyhow, I have concluded that this is something white folk enjoy mostly, lol. Please, black people know to stay away from all that.. Hence the links to the Illuminati. But life goes on. it has been interesting to take a peek into what is only really depicted in horror films. Why are you making this a question of race? What is the point of that and why are you drawing that conclusion? Edited to add - Eve, isn't it interesting how even in reading MY words you are mis-reading what I am saying as I have pointed out the discrepancy in what you thought I said regarding an initiation and what I actually said? Don't you see how this happens ALL THE TIME in what is intended versus what is assumed? You assumed Crowley committed a child sacrifice because that is how you read it - versus investigating what was written about the entire subject matter... Edited November 18, 2012 by CarrieT 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 You'd think, given the frequency of complaining about their own holy book being taken out of context, that they'd be a bit more aware of the problems in prematurely jumping to conclusions. Holy? The books written by Crowley are termed as being for practical use and speak candidly about the sacrificing of male children. There is also mention of the eating of a eucharist made out of seemingly a biscuit type base mixed with childs's blood or menstrual blood and semen. To me that is pretty shocking stuff to be included in a text for followers! .. but I suppose your point will be that that is open to interpretations also? .. I don't think it is but hey.. Do you also practice thelema quickjoe? Take care, Eve x Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Eve, by definition "holy" is "specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority." So, for Thelemites, let US decide what is holy for our doctrine, please. Yes, we have what are considered holy books and they are classified: Class A - works not to be changed, even to the letter Class B - works of scholarship and enlightenment Class C - material that suggests things other than the obvious Class D - the official rituals and instructions Class E - manifestos, broadsides, epistles, and other public statements Please - I beg of you - stop reading and making assumptions. You keep saying "you don't know" but "think you know." Without immersing yourself in the subject matter, you will never fully comprehend and I don't have time (or the inclination) to continually explain how misguided your assumptions are. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 None that I know of. No. No, no, no... Crowley's version of a "child sacrifice" is a form of sex magick that involves spilling a man's seed. Taken in a literal sense, he is "sacrificing the potential existence of a child" by not germinating his semen in a woman and creating a baby. He never killed a living child. Ever. See? That is exactly my point of people who misconceive of someone's writing without fully investigating the intent or history behind it. Without extensive study into the subject, you misinterpret what was written and make assumptions. Wrong assumptions at that. I never said you could not know. I said that I was sworn to secrecy and could not tell. Of course you can know: Go through the initiations yourself to learn the secrets. Why are you making this a question of race? What is the point of that and why are you drawing that conclusion? Edited to add - Eve, isn't it interesting how even in reading MY words you are mis-reading what I am saying as I have pointed out the discrepancy in what you thought I said regarding an initiation and what I actually said? Don't you see how this happens ALL THE TIME in what is intended versus what is assumed? You assumed Crowley committed a child sacrifice because that is how you read it - versus investigating what was written about the entire subject matter... Carrie, thank you for your comments. However, I don't really trust what you are saying at all and cannot pretend any differently. I don't really want to get into a slinging match with you because really that is pointless. All I can do really is to make sure that my colleagues are aware of this practice (in real life), as I work to protect children. Maybe one day, as awareness grows we could have someone who practices thelema to speak to our team and explain the practices (good and bad) This is what is usually done in cases where there is lack of direct understanding of religious or cultural practices. Until then I remain sceptical to say the least and will be additionally cautious of persons who practice any dark art primarily because of the explicit references in the literatures; raising children to observe sex acts ect, ect ect. These things I honestly did not know about. I undertstand that you are free to do as you wish and I have no evidence that you have participated in such act/s and as such I bear you no malice nor want to shame you, perplex you or anything else of that nature. Sincerely, thank you for the information you have provided. Take care, Eve x Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Eve - many in our organization do exactly what you desire. They reach out to authorities and schools and try to allay the fears that exist. You would be shocked how many of our brethren are school teachers, child and adult psychologist, and the ilk. You are free to approach the organization for such outreach. But until - or if - you do, without FULLY UNDERSTANDING that which you are reading on the 'net, I beg you to stop repeating bits and pieces which, outside the context of how and why they were written, DO appear "dark." It is the perpetuation of such dogma that is harmful and you, more than anyone in this thread, have misquoted and misconstrued what has been written and said. Do you see that at all? YOU are ascribing all this to a "dark" side, thereby implying negativity and mistrust. It is exactly this type of rhetoric I am trying to fight. We are doctors and lawyers and school teachers and librarians and artists and accountants... We are not sinister or macabre or scary. Please stop painting us as such. Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Eve, let me put it to you in terms that you might be able to appreciate. Let's say I were to quote Jesus in Luke 19:27: And not mention that he was in the middle of a parable at the time, and not actually issuing any such command to his followers. This is so important and a very good point. It really bothers me when some people quote Jesus there and fail to mention that he was merely telling a story, a parable (earthly story with heavenly meaning). It so true that he was not giving that command to his followers!!! Would you think me dishonest? Yes Ignorant? Possibly Let's say that somebody pointed out to me my error, but I went right along repeating this claim. What then would you think of me? I'd be frustrated. Jesus didn't kill people. He healed people. Now some people don't think Jesus truly healed people and that's their right to think that. Thomas Jefferson, for example, cut out of his Bible every miracle of Jesus. A Founding Father's view of God - Los Angeles Times It is his right to do that. I personally believe the talk about Jesus healing people and rising from the dead is true. That's my right. Regardless, the historic figure of Jesus does not include a man who kills people or who commanded his chosen apostles to kill others. Rather, he told them to tell others about him, and they did, and they died (most of them) for telling others about Jesus. The chosen apostles and the disciples of Jesus didn't kill people; many were killed. That's just history. About Satanism, I personally don't know much about it. It doesn't interest me all that much, to be blunt. Buddhism interests me much more, as well as Sufism. However, I understand your point that it would be frustrating for sacred texts of both to be taken out of context. I experience that frustration when people take Jesus' words out of context, so I understand and agree to the point you are making. Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Thank you, QuickJoe. Very eloquently put.... Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Satanism seems to be, at best, an immature mockery of Christian beliefs; and, at worst, a dark and evil cult, to most Christians. But irregardless of the extent to which a group has based it's beliefs on the idea of Satan, they are still based, one way or another, on Satan. Satan is a Judeo-Christian concept. In a Christian's mind, Satan represents everything that is evil and bad. No matter how benign a follower of Satan may view his or her ritual/credo/lifestyle, a Christian believer does not view it that way. Even the smallest desire to invoke the "spirit" of Satan is extremely frightening to most Christians. Most Christians think that it is very dangerous to be involved in these practices. Not because children are being sacrifice or anything, but because Satanists are blinded to the path of destruction they are on (in Christians' opinions). In my opinion, if any Christian is speaking out against Satanism, it's because he or she is genuinely worried about those who follow that faith. If no one listens, well...ok. But Christians do have a right to voice their concerns and opinions about Satan and Satanists. The OP asked to understand more about the belief and, as Satanism is directly related to Christianity, Christians can offer some perspective as well. So yes, I don't know the in's and out's of these faiths...but I know enough about Satanism to know that it is the antithesis of everything I believe in. I shouldn't have to "immerse" myself in something to get the general idea. Yes, to fully understand ANY subject, you have to be fully immersed. But for a faith to be so ultra secretive seems rather suspicious to me. I'm thankful that most Christians I know will always take the time to explain any part of Christianity that they can when asked, and that nothing is kept secret. Edited November 20, 2012 by pie2 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I shouldn't have to "immerse" myself in something to get the general idea. Yes, to fully understand ANY subject, you have to be fully immersed. But for a faith to be so ultra secretive seems rather suspicious to me. Please understand that I stated early in this thread that I was familiar with those involved in Satanism. I am not - nor have ever been a Satanist. However, I am involved in an oft-miscontrued faith known as Thelema, which is not the antithesis of Christianity and is not remotely related to either Christianity or Satanism. It has been the misquoting and misinterpretation of THAT faith that I have been defending and suggesting that to understand it, full immersion would be beneficial versus people who cherry-pick parts for shock value without understanding what they are posting. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Please understand that I stated early in this thread that I was familiar with those involved in Satanism. I am not - nor have ever been a Satanist. However, I am involved in an oft-miscontrued faith known as Thelema, which is not the antithesis of Christianity and is not remotely related to either Christianity or Satanism. It has been the misquoting and misinterpretation of THAT faith that I have been defending and suggesting that to understand it, full immersion would be beneficial versus people who cherry-pick parts for shock value without understanding what they are posting. Hey CarrieT, Thanks for clarifying. I am totally confused with this thread lol I thought it was about satanism? I probably missed something. Trying to do this on a mobile can be a bit confusing. Can you please provide us with some accurate, educational links about your faith? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Please understand that I stated early in this thread that I was familiar with those involved in Satanism. However, I am involved in an oft-miscontrued faith known as Thelema, which is not the antithesis of Christianity and is not remotely related to either Christianity or Satanism. Yes, Carrie...I am aware that you are a Thelemite, not a Satanist. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hey CarrieT, Thanks for clarifying. I am totally confused with this thread lol I thought it was about satanism? I probably missed something. Trying to do this on a mobile can be a bit confusing. Can you please provide us with some accurate, educational links about your faith? Thanks. I am also on a phone (and traveling for the next week), and am unable to provide links at this time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I am also on a phone (and traveling for the next week), and am unable to provide links at this time. haha me too actually! No rush, just if you have time. I'd be interested in learning more. Not to rip it apart or anything, just self-education. Safe travels! Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 ...I'd be interested in learning more. Not to rip it apart or anything, just self-education... Maybe Carrie could even start a new thread about it, lol ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Maybe Carrie could even start a new thread about it, lol ! Good point, as usual Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Good point, as usual :o:o:o Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Let's say I were to quote Jesus in Luke 19:27 I can't copy it, but "Originally posted by Jesus"...that was so funny! I admit I'm curious about how you came to know the bible so well (No need to reply, especially if you don't want to reveal a secret love for bible study, ) Edited November 20, 2012 by pie2 Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Eve, let me put it to you in terms that you might be able to appreciate. Let's say I were to quote Jesus in Luke 19:27: And not mention that he was in the middle of a parable at the time, and not actually issuing any such command to his followers. Would you think me dishonest? Ignorant? Let's say that somebody pointed out to me my error, but I went right along repeating this claim. What then would you think of me? That's what I'm thinking about you right now. Seriously. Follow Carrie's advice, and stop proclaiming on things which you clearly know very little about. So, you are basically saying shut up because there is only one interpretation? Have you read the passages in the context of the said texts? Really, you are saying this? Why assume I haven't read the books in context? The books are pretty short and do not seem to come with any additional readings to clarify what is being said. Additional readings are usually the clearest indication of group meanings and is how many come to understand how the Bible can be interpreted by followers. Usually people will show the context of the verses as they are written and expand upon meaning. If Carrie can do that then fair enough. That would be good and is usually the direction such conversations follow anyway. Don't assume that I am here only to make backhanded comments. Historically, that is your place! I didn't offer myself as anything here. Carrie had no problem with my first two links, which to me were distrurbing enough. So, I looked deeper. Anyhow, yes, it would be interesting to hear how thelema is not satanic in origin and in deed and why. Take care, Eve x 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I thought about it overnight. I am not here to proselytize. In fact, this is a relationship site and not a religious discussions site so - no - I am not going to start a thread to explain Thelema. If someone really wants to know and understand, there are plenty of other discussion groups for that sort of thing. It is not my path in life to teach people about various faiths or the differences therein. I will say, however, that Eve is again wrong in stating the writings are "pretty short and do not seem to come with any additional readings to clarify what is being said." Yes, many of the core texts are short but the additional writings are voluminous. Heck, Crowley's Equinox is 14 volumes and that does not take into account the number of other writers who have written commentary (Lon Milo DuQuette, Don Michael Kraig, Israel Regardie, Rodney Orpheus, Kenneth Grant). Instead of finding shock sites to quote, I would recommend folks start with the basic Wikipedia page of Crowley. It is fairly level-headed and not sensationalized. Those in the Order are pretty good at keeping it up-to-date with even-thinking explanations. Was Crowley a saint or a sinner? Who cares? He exercised poor judgement, yes. But the core of the philosophy is to determine what one's True Will in life and work towards attaining that - and not to harm others in the path towards that Will. Eve claims to be "protecting children" but I would defy her to cite even ONE example of anyone ever being harmed in the name of Thelema. There will be no police reports or "child sacrifices" or murders because there are none. She is warning people needlessly of something that is rather benign. We are not sensationalists and tend to keep to ourselves in this regard. That is why we aren't walking door-to-door, handing out pamphlets or holding conventions to sway people to our religion. Those who are interested come to us of their own free will. They are free to leave whenever they desire. There is no coercion. So, instead of continuing in this religious rant, I am going to go back to helping people who are concerned their partners are having affairs, explain how an itch might be an STD, or help someone get out of a horrible marriage. This is a relationship site, after all. And I have learned when you have cooked something in a pot or kettle, it can only ever be used to cook that one thing because it can never be cleaned out enough to cook anything else and that burnt-on taste remains and flavors everything else that ever comes from it. I'm getting on a plane now... Happy Thanksgiving, all. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 No, I'm telling you to learn about something before you shoot your mouth off about it. And if you don't, don't act surprised when others put you in your place. A saying about pots and kettles is coming to mind. Nice to see you can rise above the sort of behaviour you whinge about. Oh, wait... Said with nothing about the subject matter at hand. Oh, well. Take care, Eve x Link to post Share on other sites
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