Satanism: what i learned

[M30USA]

(I skipped over most of the begets and a lot of the psalms)..

 

That's too bad. If you had read the "begets" you would realize they map out the lineage of every single male from Adam to Jesus.

[M30USA]

You crack me up, M30. I honestly wonder if this is an elaborate troll on your part.

 

I don't know why you laugh at so many things. The Hebrews were masters of record keeping and genealogy. Maybe it's because they knew God promised them a messiah which would be from their own lineage--so they had reason to keep track.

[M30USA]

Hey quickjoe, I came across this verse during my Bible reading today. Thought you might like it:

 

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Proverbs 29:9 ESV)

[BetheButterfly]

Hey quickjoe, I came across this verse during my Bible reading today. Thought you might like it:

 

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Proverbs 29:9 ESV)

 

I personally think wise people do not call other people "fools." Insulting people is not a wise thing to do.

 

Also, Jesus has very strong words to say about people who call another "fool."

 

Matthew 5 (I boldened some.)

Mat 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

 

"21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. 23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

 

 

It is interesting that when Jesus talks about hell, whether it is hyperbole or parables, it has to do mainly as punishment for people mistreating others. (Please also see Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 16:19-21.)

[M30USA]

Bethebutterfly,

 

My point is that, every single time I make reference to the Bible, quickjoe laughs and mocks. Doesn't matter what the verse is about--be it a verse about God's commandments, God's prophecy, or God's character/identity. He repeatedly laughs. I think my verse from Proverbs 29:9 was more than warranted. But I see that you as always seem to show partiality to those who mock the Bible while rebuking those who "hold fast" to it as the Bible instructs us. Have a happy holiday.

Edited November 23, 2012 by M30USA

[BetheButterfly]

Bethebutterfly,

 

My point is that, every single time I make reference to the Bible, quickjoe laughs and mocks.

 

Jesus was mocked, but from what I understand, he didn't hold it against the mockers. I get angry when people insult others and I don't like being insulted at all. However, I'm hoping that I'm learning little by little how to be like Jesus. It's hard to know exactly how far to take that... I'm not sure if it's ok to ignore people who I think are mockers and insulters of other people. Loving one's enemies or people who mock others isn't easy, that's for sure. I'm not perfect at all and struggle with this teaching of Jesus a lot.

 

Luke 23 (I boldened some.)

Luke 23 NIV - Then the whole assembly rose and led - Bible Gateway

 

" 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

 

 

It's hard not to get mad when people mock, but since Jesus forgave, he is a good example of loving one's enemies, which Jesus told us to do (accounted in Matthew 5:43-48 and Luke 6:27-38).

[BetheButterfly]

Bethebutterfly,

 

But I see that you as always seem to show partiality to those who mock the Bible while rebuking those who "hold fast" to it as the Bible instructs us. Have a happy holiday.

 

Jesus was and still is a friend of sinners. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I'm not better than anyone, which is why it's important to "show partiality" and to love like Jesus commands.

 

What do you think about the following in Proverbs 9?

 

"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insults;

whoever rebukes the wicked incurs abuse.

8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you;

rebuke the wise and they will love you."

Proverbs 9 NIV - Invitations of Wisdom and Folly - Bible Gateway

 

As for me, I've been rebuked before, plenty of times. Both Anela and QuickJoe have rebuked me before (at least, I consider them to have rebuked me) and I'm grateful for it. I have learned through their rebukes. Pureinheart has also sort of rebuked me, but I suppose she has more than rebuked just showed me that I was wrong for my assumption of her. People make mistakes. Rebukes help people realize their mistakes. Rebuking isn't bad at all. However, most people do not consider being called a fool to be a rebuke, but rather an insult.

 

Thankfully, my parents never rebuked me by calling me a fool, though they have told me I have done foolish things before (which I have) and also have been selfish. Those are areas in which I'm trying to grow out of in order to be wise and selfless. It's hard, but rebukes help guide. Rebukes don't always come from people who believe the same as me, but just because a person isn't a Christian (in the case of Quickjoe for example), that doesn't make his rebukes any less valid or less worth listening to and seeing what Jesus says, and striving to obey Jesus even when it's hard.

 

Obeying Jesus is a daily choice. I confessed to another poster I would have a very hard time loving my enemies and would possibly throw that command of Jesus' out of the window if someone physically attacked and enslaved me and my family. Now, it would be perfectly fine with me if other Christians rebuked me for that attitude. However, most Christians understand that many thing Jesus tells us to do is not easy and is a choice as far as what we will do. Will we love? All the time? Everybody? We all fail. However, hopefully we will grow more and more like Jesus. That is my personal desire, though only God knows how I will do in times of severe testing.

[The nihilst chick]

Huh? Where are you getting anti-semitism and child abuse??

 

 

 

We don't worship any deities. I was briefly involved with the Church of the Eternal Source - and a LOT of those people are also in the OTO - but the general philosophy is that most mythological deities have correspondences and similarities with others.

 

i.e., Jesus was born of a virgin. So was Horus. Jesus was the son of God. So was Horus (Osiris was his father). Birth was heralded by a star. Both births were witnessed by shepherds. Herut tried to murder Horus. Herod tried to murder Jesus. Neither were successful. Both had a break in their timeline (ages 12 to 30). Both were baptized at the age of 30. Both of their baptisers (Anup and John) were beheaded.

 

Again, we don't worship any deities. We study them to see how they are all very, very similar.

 

Ohhhh my bad. That is really cool. You guys value knowlege it seems.

[M30USA]

Quickjoe, don't even pretend to make the issue about my "interpretation" of the Bible. How would you even know enough about the Bible to make any well-informed "interpretation" when even you admit that you don't know that much about the Bible? Just a classic smokescreen. It's easy to say the Bible is all open to "interpretation" and just lazily brush it off without actually becoming well-informed on it. At least the Biblical issues I have chosen to openly discuss I have spent hundreds of hours researching (yes I probably have Aspbergers).

[skydiveaddict]

Quickjoe, don't even pretend to make the issue about my "interpretation" of the Bible.

 

Yea, but where did all the aliens and ufo's come from?

[M30USA]

Yea, but where did all the aliens and ufo's come from?

 

"Aliens"--as you know them--don't exist. The whole concept has been distorted into a lie.

 

But angels are real, they have been recorded in the Bible as visiting earth all throughout history, and it seems that they are the occupants of "chariots" which are undeniably associated with the clouds and the sky. To deny these facts is to deny Scripture. It's all there. You either have to take it as all one big, highly-descriptive metaphor (while ignoring the clearly physical descriptions)...or it means exactly what it says.

[skydiveaddict]

"Aliens"--as you know them--don't exist. The whole concept has been distorted into a lie.

 

You mean like Scientology? I suspect you are a follower of this "religion" but are unwilling to say so.

 

But angels are real, they have been recorded in the Bible as visiting earth all throughout history, and it seems that they are the occupants of "chariots" which are undeniably associated with the clouds and the sky.

 

Where does scripture say that angels have visited earth "all throughout history" and are the "occupants of chariots?"'

 

To deny these facts is to deny Scripture. It's all there.

Where?

 

Or more to the point, since I am catholic and therefore a part of one of the "false religions" as you have said; can you tell me which is the "true" religion?

Edited November 25, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[M30USA]

Skydiveaddict, I can point you in the right direction if you are sincerely prepared to dig in and find answers. Get yourself a biblical concordance (either a book or app) and do an exhaustive search for the following terms:

 

1) angel(s)

2) angel(s) of The Lord

3) son(s) of God

4) chariot(s)

5) chariot(s) of God

5) fiery chariot(s)

6) cloud(s)

7) pillar of cloud(s)

8) pillar of fire

9) whirlwind

 

If you make it through all those terms and can sincerely say to me straight-faced that the Bible does NOT say what I just said in the post above, then I would sincerely be surprised. The problem is people do NOT know what the Bible actually says on this subject and, furthermore, the Christian culture as a whole bases their view of this not on what Bible actually says, but their own perception. "Oh it just can't be! That's ridiculous!" All the while they refuse to consult scripture.

Edited November 25, 2012 by M30USA

[skydiveaddict]

Skydiveaddict, I can point you in the right direction if you are sincerely prepared to dig in and find answers. Get yourself a biblical concordance (either a book or app) and do an exhaustive search for the following terms:

 

1) angel(s)

2) angel(s) of The Lord

3) son(s) of God

4) chariot(s)

5) chariot(s) of God

5) fiery chariot(s)

6) cloud(s)

7) pillar of cloud(s)

8) pillar of fire

9) whirlwind

 

If you make it through all those terms and can sincerely say to me straight-faced that the Bible does NOT say what I just said in the post above, then I would sincerely be surprised.

 

Those words certainly exist in the Bible, but certainly not in the silly context in which you present them; ufo's and the like. Show me "straight-faced " where the Bible says anything like that.

 

The problem is people do NOT know what the Bible actually says on this subject and, furthermore, the Christian culture as a whole bases their view of this not on what Bible actually says, but their own perception.

 

No, the problem is you follow Scientology and are afraid to say so. That's where your theology comes from. Name me one Christian religion that teaches that ufo's and extra-terrestrials undoubtedly exist; and are "angels" and "sons of God."

[TheFinalWord]

Skydiveaddict, I can point you in the right direction if you are sincerely prepared to dig in and find answers. Get yourself a biblical concordance (either a book or app) and do an exhaustive search for the following terms:

 

1) angel(s)

2) angel(s) of The Lord

3) son(s) of God

4) chariot(s)

5) chariot(s) of God

5) fiery chariot(s)

6) cloud(s)

7) pillar of cloud(s)

8) pillar of fire

9) whirlwind

 

If you make it through all those terms and can sincerely say to me straight-faced that the Bible does NOT say what I just said in the post above, then I would sincerely be surprised. The problem is people do NOT know what the Bible actually says on this subject and, furthermore, the Christian culture as a whole bases their view of this not on what Bible actually says, but their own perception. "Oh it just can't be! That's ridiculous!" All the while they refuse to consult scripture.

 

The horses, don't forget the fiery horses...

 

"And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. "

 

Has anyone ever seen fiery horses and mountains of brass when they see UFO's?

[TheFinalWord]

This is my final word on the matter.

 

Was this a subliminal message or Freudian slip?

[skydiveaddict]

The horses, don't forget the fiery horses...

 

"And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. "

 

Has anyone ever seen fiery horses and mountains of brass when they see UFOs?

 

No one ever has and neither has he. I'm telling ya, its Scientology. They mix any various brands of Christian religions with the kooky notions of L. Ron Hubbard and his "Dianetics" book. A sci-fy novel that has become the Scientology bible.

Edited November 25, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[skydiveaddict]

And it all culminates with a movie involving John Travolta and giant codpieces. It's not pretty.

 

lol. I see your point. But really M30 is unwilling to admit that he follows Scientology. And He just makes himself sound more foolish because of that. If he would just admit it, we could have a good discussion about these issues. I mean I'm catholic, so everyone knows where I stand, good or bad. But I say so, he will not.

[M30USA]

I'm not a scientologist. I believe the Bible is the flawless, inerrant Word of God.

 

Thefinalword, you brought up the example of "fiery horses". If you believe there were actual horses flying in the sky, I disagree. Would you also say there were Egyptian chariots flying in the sky? Nope. There was no name for them. I challenge you: with the language of the ancients, how WOULD you describe UFOs (assuming they exist)?

 

Honestly, don't ignore my point. I want your very next post to give me a written description of UFOs using merely ancient language. (Humor me by assuming they do exist.)

 

Also, thefinalword, didn't you just admit that these "chariots" are demonic? Then why is EVERY case in Scripture of these "chariots" directly associated with angels of The Lord? Dude, don't get me wrong, I had your same view years ago. But then I realized it was entirely based on society's (and even the church's) view--while it completely flew in the face of Scripture.

Edited November 25, 2012 by M30USA

[M30USA]

lol. I see your point. But really M30 is unwilling to admit that he follows Scientology. And He just makes himself sound more foolish because of that. If he would just admit it, we could have a good discussion about these issues. I mean I'm catholic, so everyone knows where I stand, good or bad. But I say so, he will not.

 

I deny Scientology because I believe Jesus Christ was God in human flesh who was not created but coexisted with God for eternity. So your liberty of labeling my belief system is wrong.

 

By the way, forget UFOs. Most Christians--you will find--do not accept the full identity of Jesus Christ when you grill them and get down to details. I find it so hilarious that people even think I'm like a "cult" person when I talk about who Jesus was: Son of the Most High God who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, who was crucified and PHYSICALLY (not spiritually) ascended back to Heaven.

 

You know, most Christians views are all nice and safe and able to be packaged into a box, usable at their convenience...UNTIL IT BECOMES REAL. Then suddenly you get labelled extremist or a quack.

[TheFinalWord]

I deny Scientology because I believe Jesus Christ was God in human flesh who was not created but coexisted with God for eternity. So your liberty of labeling my belief system is wrong.

 

By the way, forget UFOs. Most Christians--you will find--do not accept the full identity of Jesus Christ when you grill them and get down to details. I find it so hilarious that people even think I'm like a "cult" person when I talk about who Jesus was: Son of the Most High God who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, who was crucified and PHYSICALLY (not spiritually) ascended back to Heaven.

 

You know, most Christians views are all nice and safe and able to be packaged into a box, usable at their convenience...UNTIL IT BECOMES REAL. Then suddenly you get labelled extremist or a quack.

 

I don't question your Christianity or your belief in Jesus. That's not my job. I do want to ask what right you have, biblically, to set yourself up a judge to "drill people". Training and teaching is the job of the Holy Spirit. If you are going to correct, rebuke, and exhort, it should be done with patience and love as Paul outlines.

 

"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

 

I do think you get attacked a lot in these forums, which is why I don't really care to engage in this UFO stuff with you. Honestly what I told CarrieT also applies to you too IMHO. If you are going to teach controversial doctrines (and this issue with UFOs isn't new, I heard about it in the 80s, and there is a reason the church denies it), you have to be prepared to patiently teach to those that are unfamiliar with your beliefs. I think this is even more true for more esoteric topics like satanism or UFO theology. Either that or just don't bother to save yourself the stress. Most of what we get from you is small tidbits, which don't provide a clear picture. In my humble opinion, the examples you provide to justify this UFO/angel/chariots theory is an extremely bizarre use of scripture, even to those of us that are Christians for a long time and are pretty familiar with the bible. It's an even more bizarre way to try to evangelize, which is what I think you are trying to do with this information. Either that or you're trying to teach us how satan operates? I guess as a fellow believer, I don't understand the non-stop opining of this doctrine. It's just not that important to focus on. Either way, it's confusing and strange to unbelievers. I think Paul's analogy with tongues and unbelievers applies in the same way.

 

"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? " - 1 Cor. 14

 

I say all this with much love. I think you are a very smart guy that argues well. But as soon as you go into this UFO stuff it completely undermines your strong evangelistic abilities.

Edited November 25, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

I just don't understand! LOL, seriously!

 

We Christians claim we believe the Bible. Yet in the very text we just pass right by the fact that angels have been visiting earth, they've eaten bread with Abraham while appearing as ordinary humans, they're the ones who were responsible for the manna in the desert (read how Psalms refers to manna as "food of the angels"), they fly around in the air above the Red Sea (inside the pillar of cloud) and part the waters, they collapse the Walls of Jericho, they break Paul out of jail (without the guards hearing, seeing, or waking up), and the list goes on and on.

 

Look, I'll be the first to say how ridiculous this all sounds. IT IS RIDICULOUS. Yet it's in the Bible.

 

You only have 3 options:

1) Throw the Bible out and consider it mythology.

2) View it all as "symbolic".

3) Accept it for what it says.

[TheFinalWord]

I just don't understand! LOL, seriously!

 

We Christians claim we believe the Bible. Yet in the very text we just pass right by the fact that angels have been visiting earth, they've eaten bread with Abraham while appearing as ordinary humans, they're the ones who were responsible for the manna in the desert (read how Psalms refers to manna as "food of the angels"), they fly around in the air above the Red Sea (inside the pillar of cloud) and part the waters, they collapse the Walls of Jericho, they break Paul out of jail (without the guards hearing, seeing, or waking up), and the list goes on and on.

 

Look, I'll be the first to say how ridiculous this all sounds. IT IS RIDICULOUS. Yet it's in the Bible.

 

You only have 3 options:

1) Throw the Bible out and consider it mythology.

2) View it all as "symbolic".

3) Accept it for what it says.

 

Bro, that's a fallacious set up and self-refuting. It's essentially saying that if I don't accept that modern UFOs are the same thing described in the bible, then I don't accept the bible for what it says. This is the same thing young earth creationists do and then will say you are "destroying the foundation of the gospel" for disagreeing about 24 hour days of creation. It's really quite aggravating b/c it takes a very minor denominational viewpoint and turns it into a full-on religious "all or nothing" dogma. In the case of UFO theology, it's even worse b/c there are no scriptures related to this stuff. It literally has to be superimposed.

 

For one, you haven't yet given any good evidence UFOs exist, so why even accept this line of reasoning in the first place? Secondly, the attempt to compare modern UFOs to angels is weak from a biblical perspective. In short, I could use the same argument against you; however, I don't have to ask you to assume UFOs exist or try to convince you fiery chariots are the same thing as flying saucers.

 

I do accept the bible for what it says about angels. What I don't accept is that the modern UFO phenomenon can be superimposed onto biblical passages pertaining to angels/chariots. I don't even know that UFOs (as we understand them here, i.e. space/spirit craft carrying around aliens/angels) exist. So why muddy a perfectly good biblical text, with wild conjecture that can most likely be attributed to natural phenomena or sleep paralysis. Chariots were a symbol of military might in the ancient world. There were also horses that powered the vehicles, which are also described with these visions of fiery chariots. So if you're going to say these fiery chariots are UFOs as we understand them today, i.e. flying saucers, you also have to account for the horses as well.

 

Also, angels manifested themselves to humans in the bible under very limited circumstances and only if directed by God to perform a specific task or carry a specific message. Angels don't just gallivant about the world, manifesting themselves at will. The vast majority of angelic visits make no mention of any type of vehicle at all (Daniel, Mary, Zechariah-John the Baptist father, Cornelius, women at the tomb, Hagar, etc). These beings operate in the spirit realm, and do not need any physical vehicle to carry them anywhere. They only appear when there is a direct message from God--consequently, angel means messenger. So again, I see no biblical need to superimpose modern flying saucers to angels.

 

Anyway, this is way off the OP.

[M30USA]

TFW, as I've repeatedly said, I don't accept the "modern UFO phenomenon". My entire premise is that the "modern UFO phenomenon" is a distorted falsehood, but that it CAN be explained by exactly what the Bible records. Little green men with laser beams, 1950s sci-fi movies, and all that is fiction.

 

But how much more "reasonable" are the descriptions of the Bible:

 

- Angel striking Sodomites blind (a neurological effect which modern humans are already being able to reproduce with technological devices)

- Angel striking Zecharias mute (a neurological effect similar to above)

- Angel hovering in air above Red Sea who parts the waters (think about how "rational" it is for a angel--which is typically considered a "spiritual" being--to be hovering in the air above the water and, more than that, to cross over from the "spiritual" realm and have a PHYSICAL effect on the waters of the Red Sea. There is no "rational" explanation for that. You have to accept the Bible is either total hogwash or it's related to spirituality and/or technology that is infinitely more complex than what we understand.)

[skydiveaddict]

TFW, as I've repeatedly said, I don't accept the "modern UFO phenomenon".

 

C'mon dude. You even started a thread on the undeniable exisrence of the "modern UFO phenomenon".

 

Here's part of what you said about it:

 

"We know undeniably that there is a phenomenon going on. There are proveably objects in the sky that should not be there--according to our understanding of the world."

Edited November 26, 2012 by skydiveaddict