I used to think the whole "alpha male" stuff was made up... till recently

[Imajerk17]

Interesting discussion! My take:

 

(1) When women say they want a nice guy, what they really mean is that they want the guy they are attracted to, to be nice. Meaning that they are attracted to him due to his confidence, alpha qualities, and leadership, and then they hope that he is also a good person who has his life together (although some women connect to dysfunctionality--we see it in this very forum).

 

(2) What women actually go for, versus what they say they want, is different. But what women go for is also pretty different from what the PUAs say they want either. Women say they want a nice guy who has his life together. PUAs say that women want a non-needy guy who masters "active disinterest" and "push-pull" and usually who is also into "self-improvement". Women have actually gone for something different from either though--guys who have issues, guys who are needy, and yes, these guys aren't even that good-looking.

 

(3) Women respond to male leadership. When you think about how that seems to go against so much of what women are being told about how they should be, it's not so surprising that many women have trouble admitting this. Consider this: Women grew up being told that they could do everything their brothers could do. Hell their moms and aunts fought for them to have access to opportunities that were previously open to males. And about every "self-help" book out there, where most of the readers are women by the way, promotes taking responsibility for yourself. After all that, a woman still responds to the man to make the moves, plan the dates, and do the driving?? She might not get why that is true about herself either.

 

One more thing: Women don't care about LOOKS so much as PHYSICAL PRESENSE.

[dreamingoftigers]

Nobody cares about outliers, just because some men are chubby chasers doesn't make it a good idea to tell little girls weighing 300 won't reduce their chances of finding a man.

 

Oh no, anything but no strings attached sex with a variety of women. The horror, the horror.

 

That'll really make those non alpha guys feel better. Sure the girl you're into is out having her vagina serviced by all of these other guys, but she doesn't really care about them, she's just having sex with them.

 

Aka once her breasts start sagging you get to have a go at her 100,000 mile odometer body. Have fun with the missionary position, sure she swallowed everything that came out of those dildos when she was 21 but now she feels it's degrading so you're just going to have to ejaculate into some kleenex. You remember kleenex, right?

 

Listening to and catering to what women say is the #1 way to ensure that you won't be taken seriously.

 

You can throw in the towel all you want, as long as we got some good use out of you while you were here ( an opportunity we only got because we didn't listen to what you said, had we been the kind of man that does listen we never would've gotten past a peck on the cheek ).

 

Don't let the door hit you in the cellulite.

 

I really couldn't give a **** about your "dating" life. LOL

 

Really, as if any of that stunned or hurt. OMG....another bitter man-slut on the internet said CELLULITE.:eek:

 

Anyways, the reason I quoted the above for the rest of y'all....

 

This is EXACTLY the bitter attitude that kills marriages.

 

Whatever short-term "usership" "alphas" are able to get from women, well, yay.... have "fun."

 

But at the end of the day, if it's an LTR or a marriage you want (and if you don't, I really couldn't care less) than modelling the above attitude will slices those chances into really really small pieces.

 

And really? Does this dude sound happy or fulfilled to anyone?

 

Furthermore.... take it or leave it.... slutty women and slutty men randomly hook up all of the time. Non-slutty people have healthy starts and continuances to their relationships. You want non-slutty, be non-slutty.

 

You want slutty, chances are you are already having it.

[PJKino]

So these good looking alphas get "used" for sex and turning women on so much that theyre willing to let someone they hardly like inside of them while average dudes get used as emotional tampons their wives are not as attracted to as much as these alphas which is why married women are flirting with these alpha guys heavily as the op stated

 

Hmm id wonder which id rather be "used" for

[ThaWholigan]

I really couldn't give a **** about your "dating" life. LOL

 

Really, as if any of that stunned or hurt. OMG....another bitter man-slut on the internet said CELLULITE.:eek:

 

Anyways, the reason I quoted the above for the rest of y'all....

 

This is EXACTLY the bitter attitude that kills marriages.

 

Whatever short-term "usership" "alphas" are able to get from women, well, yay.... have "fun."

 

But at the end of the day, if it's an LTR or a marriage you want (and if you don't, I really couldn't care less) than modelling the above attitude will slices those chances into really really small pieces.

 

And really? Does this dude sound happy or fulfilled to anyone?

 

Furthermore.... take it or leave it.... slutty women and slutty men randomly hook up all of the time. Non-slutty people have healthy starts and continuances to their relationships. You want non-slutty, be non-slutty.

 

You want slutty, chances are you are already having it.

 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment, indulge me

 

The way I see it is that there is little comfort for the relationship minded man against the supposed Alpha who can have who or what he wants from what is perceived to be the majority of women. So even though he may be used for sex, he will still be getting the lion's share of the attention and romantic interest rather than the average, relationship minded man. It would then seem as though one is having to settle for being the 2nd choice, the uninspiring, unexciting safe choice who perhaps doesn't instill the sexual spark that the Alpha does.

 

Obviously I still think the whining is perhaps exacerbating their issues, but when your reality infuses doubt you have to wonder. Personally, it really comes down to the women you choose and how well you control your own reality, to the point where you are "alpha" in your own right, and have a firm acceptance of who you are, how you perceive the world and everything else. That will probably bring you more comfort, and actually you will find that the woman will be more comfortable with you as a result.

 

More word about the sex with alpha vs. relationship with normal guy. Many guys will continue to be insecure about that, as though they could even be cheated on at any point with such a guy. It's a real possibility, cuckoldry happens. Also considering the kind of guys that a woman "used" to have sex with before getting with the average guy in a relationship. Women will say "but we only used him for sex" but the man will not take solace in that at all - in fact it will make him more paranoid! It takes a secure man, secure in his own presence, sexuality and emotions to be able to deal with that. Ironically, that will make the woman even less likely to cheat, and in fact will indeed bring a sexual spark to the table to rival any spark felt with the stereotypical Alpha man.

[Lonely Ronin]

The way I see it is that there is little comfort for the relationship minded man against the supposed Alpha who can have who or what he wants from what is perceived to be the majority of women. So even though he may be used for sex, he will still be getting the lion's share of the attention and romantic interest rather than the average, relationship minded man. It would then seem as though one is having to settle for being the 2nd choice, the uninspiring, unexciting safe choice who perhaps doesn't instill the sexual spark that the Alpha does.

 

Obviously I still think the whining is perhaps exacerbating their issues, but when your reality infuses doubt you have to wonder. Personally, it really comes down to the women you choose and how well you control your own reality, to the point where you are "alpha" in your own right, and have a firm acceptance of who you are, how you perceive the world and everything else. That will probably bring you more comfort, and actually you will find that the woman will be more comfortable with you as a result.

 

I see this a lot of this as a weak minded defeatist mentality in general. I mean all the guys crying "O but the Alpha", probably cry about 50 other things in their lives. Someone is better than me at this, or I failed at that... get up off your ass and do something about it. I mean Michael Jordan was cut from the varsity team his sophmore year in high school, this is how he reacted.

 

I think that not making the Varsity team drove me to really work at my game, and also taught me that if you set goals, and work hard to achieve them—the hard work can pay off.

[ThaWholigan]

I see this a lot of this as a weak minded defeatist mentality in general. I mean all the guys crying "O but the Alpha", probably cry about 50 other things in their lives. Someone is better than me at this, or I failed at that... get up off your ass and do something about it. I mean Michael Jordan was cut from the varsity team his sophmore year in high school, this is how he reacted.

I see it as weak-minded myself to be honest. Not to sound horribly elitist, but that kind of mentality I view as beneath me. It's one thing to be aware of these things and another to dwell on it, and use it as an excuse to ignore my own shortcomings in a given scenario.

 

But maybe not everybody can cultivate something with such a foundation for themselves. I spend so much of my time believing that anybody can just because I can, but so many deny it and label me an outlier for being able to cultivate it for myself. Are they right? Or are they just being.....well, weak-minded?

[HopelessRomantic76]

They were attracted to him the whole time, but didn't want to make their husbands insecure and jealous.

[fortyninethousand322]

I see this a lot of this as a weak minded defeatist mentality in general. I mean all the guys crying "O but the Alpha", probably cry about 50 other things in their lives. Someone is better than me at this, or I failed at that... get up off your ass and do something about it. I mean Michael Jordan was cut from the varsity team his sophmore year in high school, this is how he reacted.

 

Oh please. Stop confusing "defeatism" with "realism". There are high quality men and low quality men. Most people know which side of the aisle they're on by early adulthood.

 

As far as Michael Jordan goes, I'm sure you're aware that lots of people get cut from their varsity teams and never end up in the NBA. It's like pointing to Jim Abbott and saying every one handed guy can play professional baseball.

[PJKino]

Has nothing to do with alpha its about his LOOKS

 

I know men are thought of as horndogs who cant control themselves around good looking women but i think women are even worse

 

Ive see women act creepy and weird as hell around good looking guys they are just thought of as the weaker gender so they get away with things men would be called out for

Edited November 26, 2012 by PJKino

[Lonely Ronin]

Oh please. Stop confusing "defeatism" with "realism". There are high quality men and low quality men. Most people know which side of the aisle they're on by early adulthood.

 

As far as Michael Jordan goes, I'm sure you're aware that lots of people get cut from their varsity teams and never end up in the NBA. It's like pointing to Jim Abbott and saying every one handed guy can play professional baseball.

 

Actually you missed the largest group, average quality. lets also assume some exceptional men exist, as well as some complete garbage ones.

 

so we have 5 groups.

 

1. garbage

2. low

3. average

4. high

5. exceptional

 

If we assume a typical 68-95-99 distribution then the break down by percentage is the following.

 

1. garbage - 2.1%

2. low - 13.6%

3. average -68.2%

4. high -13.6%

5. exceptional - 2.1%

 

The remaining 0.4% are extreme outliers and not really statistically relevant. realism is understanding that almost 70% of the population is withing a standard deviation of the mean and thus average. Defeatism, is the crap i read so much of on LS. The I'm not in the upper echelons so I must be garbage BS.

 

About Jordan,

 

Yea lots of people fail at something at some point in their life. How you move forward from that failure is what's important. Jordan could have easily went home sulked & whined like so many here on LS do, instead he said F that nothings going to hold me back.

[kaylan]

I never bought into the fact that these so called alpha males had magical powers over women like some people claimed i always thought it was just an excuse to why somebody cant attract women and while i still dont buy its the end all be all lately ive seen it does have some merit

 

My friend who was recently divorced and became single was the so called "alpha" of the group good looking sucessful guy always leading setting places up to go etc

 

Married women in my social circle claimed he was arrogant full of himself etc they seemed to be put off by his "alpha" aura then he becomes single lightly jokes around and flirts with these women add in a little alcohol and these married women who bad mouthed him before are know coming close to crossing the line in flriitng and touching him telling him how hot he is.

 

Is it possible these traits really do have a spell over women where they are off put by his arrogance but at the same time animally attracted because of female wiring? or maybe they were just attracted to him the whole time and badmouthed him in front of people including their husbands to mask feelings they had deep down?

 

 

Ladies can you see how if your mans friend was this type of guy that you could posisbly be seduced in a weak moment?

Its simple.

 

Low quality woman + settling on their husband/husband not fulfilling needs + Attractive new guy = your OP

 

Lets be real though. Im not surprised women are attracted to an attractive bloke at the ages you all are at. Especially when you consider how most people let themselves go as they enter their 30s.

 

I told you this before when you brought this guy up...the bad mouthing is simply a facade to hide their attraction. They dont really believe much of the crap they say. They merely want to keep up appearances for everyone else.

 

Lets stop with this alpha nonsense. The guy is an attractive dude...and thats why the girls like him. End of story (the successfulness helps too...but its mainly his looks when compared to his peers.)

Edited November 26, 2012 by kaylan

[fortyninethousand322]

Actually you missed the largest group, average quality. lets also assume some exceptional men exist, as well as some complete garbage ones.

 

so we have 5 groups.

 

1. garbage

2. low

3. average

4. high

5. exceptional

 

If we assume a typical 68-95-99 distribution then the break down by percentage is the following.

 

1. garbage - 2.1%

2. low - 13.6%

3. average -68.2%

4. high -13.6%

5. exceptional - 2.1%

 

The remaining 0.4% are extreme outliers and not really statistically relevant. realism is understanding that almost 70% of the population is withing a standard deviation of the mean and thus average. Defeatism, is the crap i read so much of on LS. The I'm not in the upper echelons so I must be garbage BS.

 

About Jordan,

 

Yea lots of people fail at something at some point in their life. How you move forward from that failure is what's important. Jordan could have easily went home sulked & whined like so many here on LS do, instead he said F that nothings going to hold me back.

 

I'm more into praxeology than treating human beings as atomistic robots. Standard deviation is meaningless as value is subjective and not quantifiable. There are men women want to date, and men women don't want to date. The market is pretty clear about revealing preferences.

 

What I meant about Jordan was that while he failed one time before making it to the NBA, he still had a pretty decent body type and set of skills to help him get where he wanted to be. He's hardly an example of "overcoming adversity".

[kaylan]

I think thats a good point women dont want to think they can easily be swayed or maniuplated..Bottom line is women as a whole tend to be a little more naive then men and can be manipulated by words and seduced..

 

Imo thats even more dangerous Men who might just get tempted to stray physically but try to resist a women can grown infatuated with seducers because of how he made her feel even if he was bs'ing

 

I think women are emotional conenction/bond junkies and if you can tap into that and at the same time also bring the physical attraction its a dangeorus situation for any women married or not..

With the way woman manipulate men with ANYTHING to do with sex....Id say men are by far the more naive and emotional gender.

 

Lust is an emotion, and most men have terrible control over their sexual urges. And you greatly underestimate a mans ability to bond with a woman hes very physically connected with.

[AD1980]

Its simple.

 

Low quality woman + settling on their husband/husband not fulfilling needs + Attractive new guy = your OP

 

Lets be real though. Im not surprised women are attracted to an attractive bloke at the ages you all are at. Especially when you consider how most people let themselves go as they enter their 30s.

 

I told you this before when you brought this guy up...the bad mouthing is simply a facade to hide their attraction. They dont really believe much of the crap they say. They merely want to keep up appearances for everyone else.

 

Lets stop with this alpha nonsense. The guy is an attractive dude...and thats why the girls like him. End of story (the successfulness helps too...but its mainly his looks when compared to his peers.)

 

I agree with you completely the thing is it almost every married women in my circle whos been infatuated with him and on the surface they seem like great quality women who love their husband...ive become good friends with some of them and they dont come off like that to me..

 

The thing is he is arrogant and full of himself so maybe they mean what they say but maybe women are even more horny then dudes and as long as a guys hot they cant help themslves?

 

I mean youd think youd be able to at least control your hormones with a husbands friend beasue it can get you in trouble..

 

My budies have good looking wives and id never think to hit on them or touch them inappropriately..

 

it makes me shudder at the thought of how theyd react around a really good looking guy who has no connections to their husband..

[AD1980]

 

Lust is an emotion, and most men have terrible control over their sexual urges. .

 

I dont know about that..i dont see many men in my circle trying to bang their friends wives i see it more the other way around

 

AS i said my friends wives are very good looking but i dont lust for them at all because they are off limits to me

[kaylan]

I agree with you completely the thing is it almost every married women in my circle whos been infatuated with him and on the surface they seem like great quality women who love their husband...ive become good friends with some of them and they dont come off like that to me..

 

The thing is he is arrogant and full of himself so maybe they mean what they say but maybe women are even more horny then dudes and as long as a guys hot they cant help themslves?

 

I mean youd think youd be able to at least control your hormones with a husbands friend beasue it can get you in trouble..

 

My budies have good looking wives and id never think to hit on them or touch them inappropriately..

 

it makes me shudder at the thought of how theyd react around a really good looking guy who has no connections to their husband..

Surface doesnt count for much. Unless you truly know these women, then you dont know them at all. And when I say "know" I mean like being a close friend who they share intimate details about themselves with.

I dont know about that..i dont see many men in my circle trying to bang their friends wives i see it more the other way around

 

AS i said my friends wives are very good looking but i dont lust for them at all because they are off limits to me

Your circle isnt indicative of the entire world. Just look at stories online...or ask guys if theyve ever encountered a guy who would make a play at a girl they are seeing. I had a "friend" who tried that, and we arent friends anymore.

 

Id say a great portion of men are good about staying about from the women their buddies are with. But there are still plenty of scumbags out there who only think with their private parts.

 

In regards to your OP, it seems your guy friends picked low quality women whos only redeeming quality is their looks.

Edited November 26, 2012 by kaylan

[ThaWholigan]

Surface doesnt count for much. Unless you truly know these women, then you dont know them at all. And when I say "know" I mean like being a close friend who they share intimate details about themselves with.

Your circle isnt indicative of the entire world. Just look at stories online...or ask guys if theyve ever encountered a guy who would make a play at a girl they are seeing. I had a "friend" who tried that, and we arent friends anymore.

 

Id say a great portion of men are good about staying about from the women their buddies are with. But there are still plenty of scumbags out there who only think with their private parts.

 

In regards to your OP, it seems your guy friends picked low quality women whos only redeeming quality is their looks.

I'd also speculate that his frustrations at his own lack of romantic attention fuels his perception of this.

[kaylan]

Surface doesnt count for much. Unless you truly know these women, then you dont know them at all. And when I say "know" I mean like being a close friend who they share intimate details about themselves with.

Your circle isnt indicative of the entire world. Just look at stories online...or ask guys if theyve ever encountered a guy who would make a play at a girl they are seeing. I had a "friend" who tried that, and we arent friends anymore.

 

Id say a great portion of men are good about staying away from the women their buddies are with. But there are still plenty of scumbags out there who only think with their private parts.

 

In regards to your OP, it seems your guy friends picked low quality women whos only redeeming quality is their looks.

Bolded is a fixed typo

[Lonely Ronin]

I'm more into praxeology than treating human beings as atomistic robots. Standard deviation is meaningless as value is subjective and not quantifiable. There are men women want to date, and men women don't want to date. The market is pretty clear about revealing preferences.

 

Wanting and getting to are two different things. The same bell cure holds for women, hence the reason as others have said, people usually end up with some similar to themselves.

 

 

What I meant about Jordan was that while he failed one time before making it to the NBA, he still had a pretty decent body type and set of skills to help him get where he wanted to be. He's hardly an example of "overcoming adversity".

 

He wasn't though, he was only 5'10" as a high school sophomore, and by his coaches and his own admissions was sub par defensively and average at everything else. he is the perfect example when it comes to overcoming the adversity many people have in their own minds.

[AD1980]

Surface doesnt count for much. Unless you truly know these women, then you dont know them at all. And when I say "know" I mean like being a close friend who they share intimate details about themselves with.

 

One of em im pretty close with..i consider her and her husband like a brother and sister..she doesnt seem like the type..i mean she grabbed my ass once and played footsie when she was drunk but shes a frnedly playful women..

 

I know for a fact by the way she looks and talks about her husband that shes in love with him which is why this is weird

[AD1980]

I'd also speculate that his frustrations at his own lack of romantic attention fuels his perception of this.

 

Possibly..i cant say im not worried that if i actually get a girl shes gonna lust over my friend:D

[ThaWholigan]

One of em im pretty close with..i consider her and her husband like a brother and sister..she doesnt seem like the type..i mean she grabbed my ass once and played footsie when she was drunk but shes a frnedly playful women..

 

I know for a fact by the way she looks and talks about her husband that shes in love with him which is why this is weird

Well possibly you may be reading too much into it if she's as playful as you say. Again, it's your own perception that may be deceiving you.

 

Possibly..i cant say im not worried that if i actually get a girl shes gonna lust over my friend:D

 

I get that, I even addressed that earlier. It's something you have to reconcile.

[AD1980]

So these good looking alphas get "used" for sex and turning women on so much that theyre willing to let someone they hardly like inside of them while average dudes get used as emotional tampons their wives are not as attracted to as much as these alphas which is why married women are flirting with these alpha guys heavily as the op stated

 

Hmm id wonder which id rather be "used" for

 

Yeah i do kinda feel like my friend has the best of both worlds because its not like my friend can get into a relationship either if he doesnt want to..

 

I just think its revisionist history to save their ego for these women to claim they played the player when they slept with one..

 

Chances are if he wanted to commit at the time they would..

[peytondoll]

Stop listening to womens' responses... they are full of crap and youre going to see the majority here disagree with this

 

If a lady talks about a guy and calls him, arrogant, *******, crazy, jerk, etc ... its a compliment because that guy is stirring her "emotional" pot

 

 

Huh...guess I am a weirdo then. The last 3 guys I dated- I stopped seeing them due to these traits.

 

I am not into jerks-immature girls are though and honestly, this works both ways. I could write a book on how acting like a bitch makes you more attractive to a guy even to the guys that say they want a "sweet natured" girl

[PJKino]

Its simple.

 

Low quality woman + settling on their husband/husband not fulfilling needs + Attractive new guy = your OP

 

Lets be real though. Im not surprised women are attracted to an attractive bloke at the ages you all are at. Especially when you consider how most people let themselves go as they enter their 30s.

 

I told you this before when you brought this guy up...the bad mouthing is simply a facade to hide their attraction. They dont really believe much of the crap they say. They merely want to keep up appearances for everyone else.

 

Lets stop with this alpha nonsense. The guy is an attractive dude...and thats why the girls like him. End of story (the successfulness helps too...but its mainly his looks when compared to his peers.)

 

I agree average looking or belwo average looking dudes who are in relationships just have to accept their nothing more then a emtional tampon to their wife/girlfriend and theyll always secretly lust for the hot guy