How did the Holy Spirit "conceive" Jesus?

[M30USA]

Based on the title of this thread, you might think I'm doubting it's possible that a "spirit" conceived Jesus. However, I fully believe it happened. What I'd challenge you all to consider is HOW it happened.

 

We know all humans have 46 chromosomes in their cells. When a new person is born, 23 chromosomes from the mother and 23 chromosomes from the father join together to form an embryo with 46 total--which becomes a human.

 

Based on all that we know in biology, it would be impossible for Mary to have contributed any more (or less) than 23 chromosomes into the man who became Jesus.

 

This leaves us with a problem: where did the other 23 come from? Scripture says Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. How does a Spirit contribute 23 chromosomes into the embryo which became Jesus? This would necessitate that the Holy Spirit, even if not a visible entity, still managed to have a PHYSICAL effect on the PHYSICAL world.

 

Obviously God chose to bring Jesus into the world through the genetic route, through the lineage of mankind--instead of just going "puff" and making him magically out of thin air. So God is using his own physical laws in biology. Which means you can't just magically create 23 chromosomes out of thin air.

 

Here is the problem clearly stated. You have to make a decision about the whole "Spirit" issue. There are only 2 choices: 1) They are either magical phenomenon which just operate outside of natural laws or 2) They are real entities which obey natural laws just like you and I.

 

You cannot evade this issue! This is the interface where spirit meets physical. There becomes less and less of a distinction. Otherwise how does a "spirit" complete a human embryo in the same manner that a male sperm cell would? You HAVE to reconcile the two. How does a "spirit" which you CANNOT see make a change in the biological world which you CAN see?

Edited November 26, 2012 by M30USA

[KathyM]

Through a miracle. I mean, He made the entire world, with all of its intricacies, through His power alone. He healed the blind, fed the multitudes, brought the dead to life, etc., etc. Miracles defy logic. God has the power.

[BetheButterfly]

Based on the title of this thread, you might think I'm doubting it's possible that a "spirit" conceived Jesus. However, I fully believe it happened. What I'd challenge you all to consider is HOW it happened.

 

We know all humans have 46 chromosomes in their cells. When a new person is born, 23 chromosomes from the mother and 23 chromosomes from the father join together to form an embryo with 46 total--which becomes a human.

 

Based on all that we know in biology, it would be impossible for Mary to have contributed any more (or less) than 23 chromosomes into the man who became Jesus.

 

This leaves us with a problem: where did the other 23 come from? Scripture says Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. How does a Spirit contribute 23 chromosomes into the embryo which became Jesus? This would necessitate that the Holy Spirit, even if not a visible entity, still managed to have a PHYSICAL effect on the PHYSICAL world.

 

 

I believe God used 23 chromosomes from Joseph, even though Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary until after she gave birth to Jesus.

 

The reason I believe this is because it is vital for the Messiah - Anointed One - promised by God to King David (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89), to be from the line of King David and King Solomon. Joseph is from the line of King David and King Solomon, whereas it seems to me that Mary is from the line of King David to his son Nathan, who never was king.

 

Below are verses that cause me to think this:

 

Matthew 1 (I boldened some.)

Matthew 1 NIV - The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah - Bible Gateway

 

"6 and Jesse the father of King David.David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,

7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

 

12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah."

 

Luke 2 (I boldened some.)

Luke 2 NIV - The Birth of Jesus - In those days - Bible Gateway

 

"In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register. 4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child."

 

 

Luke 3

 

 

"23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,

the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,"

 

 

Luke and Matthew list 2 different genealogies. They are not the same. The one in Matthew lists a genealogy with King David on to King David's son Solomon who became king. Luke, however, lists a genealogy with King David on to his son Nathan (who is older than King Solomon but was not king after David.) Personally, I believe both genealogies are accurate, and that Matthew's is Joseph's line whereas Luke's is Mary's line. Luke mentions in Luke 2 that Joseph is of the line of David. That means the royal line, which is why Joseph went to Bethlehem. David had many sons (due to all the wives he had) and Nathan is of a different mother than Solomon, the son of Bathsheba.

 

Because I believe that God can create a human without the sexual reproduction taking place (like Adam and Eve) so I believe God can take the DNA of Joseph and use it while creating Jesus in the womb of Mary.

[M30USA]

Through a miracle. I mean, He made the entire world, with all of its intricacies, through His power alone. He healed the blind, fed the multitudes, brought the dead to life, etc., etc. Miracles defy logic. God has the power.

 

Read "Miracles" by CS Lewis. He makes the same point I am. Miracles do not break the natural laws of bio or physics. They use the natural laws, but in a way which is higher than our understanding.

[M30USA]

 

 

Because I believe that God can create a human without the sexual reproduction taking place (like Adam and Eve) so I believe God can take the DNA of Joseph and use it while creating Jesus in the womb of Mary.

 

Butterfly, you bring up a good point about the possibility of it not being Mary's chromosomes but Joseph's.

 

But your other point (above) I will comment on...

 

God couldn't just create the person of Jesus in the same manner than he did Adam and Eve (ie, out of dust) for the following reasons:

 

1) Jesus was to be of the "seed of the woman" (Eve), the Son of David, and the root of Jesse. In other words, he had to use what was already there.

 

2) Jesus also had to be "god in the flesh". If you create something, it cannot be God. God has always existed. This implies that WHATEVER provided the other 23 chromosomes to Mary must not have been any thing (or person) who was created. It/he must have always been. Thus we have the person of the Holy Spirit. It was not "created".

 

I just want to restate the point of this thread: how the spiritual world has REAL effects in the biological and physical universe. And it's not just this "magical" realm where god kind of just taps his magic wand.

[BetheButterfly]

Butterfly, you bring up a good point about the possibility of it not being Mary's chromosomes but Joseph's.

 

I believe God used both Mary's and Joseph's chromosomes.

 

But your other point (above) I will comment on...

 

God couldn't just create the person of Jesus in the same manner than he did Adam and Eve (ie, out of dust) for the following reasons:

 

1) Jesus was to be of the "seed of the woman" (Eve), the Son of David, and the root of Jesse. In other words, he had to use what was already there.

Understood, but my point was that both were miracles. Adam and Eve were both created as adults, so yes I agree that God didn't create Jesus in the same manner, but I meant that Jesus is a miracle same as Adam and Eve...

 

Jesus was created in the womb of Mary without the process of sexual intimacy between Joseph and Mary taking place.

 

2) Jesus also had to be "god in the flesh". If you create something, it cannot be God. God has always existed. This implies that WHATEVER provided the other 23 chromosomes to Mary must not have been any thing (or person) who was created. It/he must have always been. Thus we have the person of the Holy Spirit. It was not "created".

Jesus is the Messiah. The Messiah has to be human, of the royal offspring of King David.

 

Jesus died. Dying is what humans and other created beings do. However, God rose Jesus from the dead, Jesus was seen by his followers who talked with him, Jesus rose into Heaven, and is coming back someday. I believe Jesus is the Word of God, who God created in human flesh. The shell He used however, is 100% human - and fulfills the requirements for the Messiah, who is called son of God (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89).

 

I just want to restate the point of this thread: how the spiritual world has REAL effects in the biological and physical universe. And it's not just this "magical" realm where god kind of just taps his magic wand.

I agree with that.

[M30USA]

I think we're in agreement on most of this.

 

Jesus is truly a paradox. Unlike all human beings who are born entirely of phyiscal mothers and fathers, Jesus was born of a physical mother but had no "physical"(as people perceive it) father. The "father"--if you want to use that term--was a spirit. Which keeps bringing me back to my point: spirits are evidently real enough to either possess (or engineer) 23 chromosomes which became half of Jesus. I suggest they weren't engineered or created, but rather were actual chromosomes of a "spirit body" which was the Holy Spirit. After all, we are made in Gods image and if we have chromosomes, how do we know he doesn't? And Paul even said that we will have real, physical bodies--even though they are spiritual. My point is that spirits are not "less real". They are physical and even MORE real--even if you can't see them.

[BetheButterfly]

I think we're in agreement on most of this.

 

Jesus is truly a paradox. Unlike all human beings who are born entirely of phyiscal mothers and fathers, Jesus was born of a physical mother but had no "physical"(as people perceive it) father. The "father"--if you want to use that term--was a spirit. Which keeps bringing me back to my point: spirits are evidently real enough to either possess (or engineer) 23 chromosomes which became half of Jesus. I suggest they weren't engineered or created, but rather were actual chromosomes of a "spirit body" which was the Holy Spirit. After all, we are made in Gods image and if we have chromosomes, how do we know he doesn't? And Paul even said that we will have real, physical bodies--even though they are spiritual. My point is that spirits are not "less real". They are physical and even MORE real--even if you can't see them.

 

We are spirit too. I believe people are the human body (shell), spirit, and soul. Some people think our spirit/soul is too close to separate.

 

Also, when God's Holy Spirit so desires, those who are filled with His Spirit can do things that are considered miraculous. It's really cool. However, it's not for people to become famous or anything, which is why I don't appreciate when some Christians say they can heal others and want money for it. It's not to make people rich. Also, I think the medical field is in itself a blessing from God because many Christians have learned how to heal those who are hurting, using physical elements, many times teamed with the spiritual element of prayer/faith.

 

God is the Father of us all, really. He is the one who breathes life into us.

God is Spirit, as Jesus so clearly says:

 

John 4 (I boldened some.)

John 4 NIV - Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman - Bible Gateway

 

"21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” 25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

[M30USA]

It's amazing to keep up with cutting edge physics and quantum mechanics. I watched this video which proved that the physical (observable) world is inseparable from the cognitive/psychological (perceptive) world.

 

They proved that certain electrons, when fired through a two-slot barrier, actually duplicated themselves and went through BOTH slots! Yet when they were filmed on a special camera, it only APPEARED to travel through one slot (and not both). This is the reason why you've heard that the mere act of observing and measuring ANYTHING actually changes the result. When physicists start seeing this, they realize they aren't dealing with "cold hard facts" anymore. It's scaring them. Our own minds are actually CHANGING the result of what we observe.

 

This is why I don't believe in an absolute distinction between spirit and body.

[BetheButterfly]

 

This is why I don't believe in an absolute distinction between spirit and body.

 

If I understand correctly, when the body dies, the spirit doesn't. The spirit is the part of us that lives on even after the body no longer functions.

[AlexDP]

Based on the title of this thread, you might think I'm doubting it's possible that a "spirit" conceived Jesus. However, I fully believe it happened. What I'd challenge you all to consider is HOW it happened.

 

We know all humans have 46 chromosomes in their cells. When a new person is born, 23 chromosomes from the mother and 23 chromosomes from the father join together to form an embryo with 46 total--which becomes a human.

 

Based on all that we know in biology, it would be impossible for Mary to have contributed any more (or less) than 23 chromosomes into the man who became Jesus.

 

This leaves us with a problem: where did the other 23 come from? Scripture says Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. How does a Spirit contribute 23 chromosomes into the embryo which became Jesus? This would necessitate that the Holy Spirit, even if not a visible entity, still managed to have a PHYSICAL effect on the PHYSICAL world.

 

Obviously God chose to bring Jesus into the world through the genetic route, through the lineage of mankind--instead of just going "puff" and making him magically out of thin air. So God is using his own physical laws in biology. Which means you can't just magically create 23 chromosomes out of thin air.

 

Here is the problem clearly stated. You have to make a decision about the whole "Spirit" issue. There are only 2 choices: 1) They are either magical phenomenon which just operate outside of natural laws or 2) They are real entities which obey natural laws just like you and I.

 

You cannot evade this issue! This is the interface where spirit meets physical. There becomes less and less of a distinction. Otherwise how does a "spirit" complete a human embryo in the same manner that a male sperm cell would? You HAVE to reconcile the two. How does a "spirit" which you CANNOT see make a change in the biological world which you CAN see?

 

 

So you think that 46 chromosomes are necessary for a human being and that either party should bring 23 chromosomes to the table, but you also believe that a spirit conceived Jesus?

 

Look. Either you decide that it was a miracle and none of this chromosome thing matters or you decide that science knows best and you don't believe. You can also choose to put trust in our science, but say that there are miracles which sometimes transcend the truths of this science. Trying to reconcile the two the way you are doing now will be very frustrating and futile.

[M30USA]

If I understand correctly, when the body dies, the spirit doesn't. The spirit is the part of us that lives on even after the body no longer functions.

 

Kind of. But only THIS body will die. Paul clearly states we will be raised in new bodies that are "incorruptible". He clearly states we will have bodies in heaven. But this won't be until Jesus has redeemed the physical world. He has already redeemed us spiritually. The redemption of the physical world (including our bodies) will not be until the second coming. So there is TEMPORARILY a rift between body and spirit. This was not always the case and it will not always be the case.

[M30USA]

...And the point I've ALWAYS tried to make when you bring up "The Secret" or "Laws of Attraction." But I get ignored.

 

Dude, I hate those books! They are satanic. At no point have I espoused their ideas. I never said we can create reality, I said we can create/alter how we PERCEIVE it.

[AlexDP]

Dude, I hate those books! They are satanic. At no point have I espoused their ideas. I never said we can create reality, I said we can create/alter how we PERCEIVE it.

 

Thereby changing our reality. It's how religion works. If you believe in miracles, you start to see miracles. What you perceive as reality is reality.

[M30USA]

Thereby changing our reality. It's how religion works. If you believe in miracles, you start to see miracles. What you perceive as reality is reality.

 

So then why bother arguing against God.

[AlexDP]

So then why bother arguing against God.

 

I don't argue against God.. I just don't argue in favour of the guy either.

[OpenBook]

Whatever His geneaology, I'd love to know what Jesus actually looked like in person. :love: Did He have dreamy Kevin Costner eyes? Did He have a big schnozz? Dark skin/dark hair? Beard? Was He tall or short or in-between? What were His hands like?

 

I find it odd that none of the disciples recognized Him on the road to Emmaus after the Resurrection. Why?

[skydiveaddict]

Here is the problem clearly stated. You have to make a decision about the whole "Spirit" issue.

 

Let me guess. The Holy Spirit was cruising around in a ufo and stopped on earth to participate in the conception of Jesus.

[El Brujo]

A lot of that biblical terminology is just allegory, or maybe based on hallucinations.

 

Personally, I think most of the people in the ancient Middle East had some sort of brain condition which prevented them from telling the difference between what was real and what wasn't.

[M30USA]

Whatever His geneaology, I'd love to know what Jesus actually looked like in person. :love: Did He have dreamy Kevin Costner eyes? Did He have a big schnozz? Dark skin/dark hair? Beard? Was He tall or short or in-between? What were His hands like?

 

I find it odd that none of the disciples recognized Him on the road to Emmaus after the Resurrection. Why?

 

Quite the contrary.

 

"He [Jesus] had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him." (Isaiah 53:2)

 

Ain't that the nature of God from the perspective of sinful, lost man? I don't believe this verse refers merely to his physical appearance, but to his entire personage as well. In the natural, we find nothing about God that is attractive and to be desired. It takes a rebirth by the Holy Spirit to see him for who he is and to desire him and his will.

[M30USA]

Let me guess. The Holy Spirit was cruising around in a ufo and stopped on earth to participate in the conception of Jesus.

 

LOL, "cruising".

 

Well...remember the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as an angel. Secondly, remember that so-called UFOs are not necessarily "ships"--as we know them. It is a human projection to view these UFOs (whatever they are) and assume they are ships for the purpose of transportation. While they fly, they might not do so in the same manner OR for the same purpose that a ship does. Additionally, it's entirely possible that UFOs, themselves, might be the angels and they aren't even flying "inside" anything.

Edited November 27, 2012 by M30USA

[AlexDP]

A lot of that biblical terminology is just allegory, or maybe based on hallucinations.

 

Personally, I think most of the people in the ancient Middle East had some sort of brain condition which prevented them from telling the difference between what was real and what wasn't.

 

No, they didn't. They did try to understand the world with whatever knowledge they had at that point.

[M30USA]

Fast forward 500 years:

 

"Yeah that poor Einstein. He tried to explain the world the best that he could."

[AlexDP]

Fast forward 500 years:

 

"Yeah that poor Einstein. He tried to explain the world the best that he could."

 

It is more than likely that Einstein's world vision will not be up to par with contemporary science by that time. It wouldn't mean his discoveries have not helped us however.

 

It is the same with atoms. Once thought to be the smallest particles on the Earth, we know now we can in fact divide them. It doesn't mean that the atomic theory has not helped us.

 

But I'm guessing that this train of thought is reserved for a different public.

[M30USA]

Some people lack the ability to see past language and culture.

 

"Yeah, man, the Bible cant be true because it doesn't mention dinosaurs!" (I've actually heard that one numerous time.)

 

"UFOs aren't in the Bible because it doesn't mention them." (Even though it uses the word chariot dozens of times and its clearly not a ground chariot.)

 

So basically...because the Bible doesn't include a 1000 page treatise on quantum mechanics, it can't be true. That's what their argument boils down to.