Do Men Want Relationships?

[verhrzn]

I've been pondering this question while reading two books I picked up, "Unnatural Selection" and "Challenging Casanova." The first book discusses the potential issues of a world is which men significantly outnumber women (resulting in men not having marriage opportunities, increasing sex trafficking, bride kidnapping, and overall violence) and the second book discusses how 75% of men would prefer a stable romantic relationship over being a "player."

 

Now I just want to be clear: I do think men want relationships. But from my personal experiences and what I've read, it seems like men want relationships with specific kind of women. In order to want a relationship, a man must be absolutely nuts about the woman, so she must be smart, independent (but not too career-oriented), "feminine" but not naggy/needy/clingy/too passive/other-negative-"feminine"-qualities, and above all, gorgeous.

 

Obviously there aren't enough women to fit this description, since those are some high standards, and most of us are, ya know, average.

 

So in the face of demand not meeting supply, it seems a lot of guys "go their own way" and just forego commitment/relationships in favor of either celibacy or casual sex with women who aren't "enough" to date.

 

Here's my question: if a guy isn't nuts about a woman, why would he want a relationship? What is the appeal of commitment to guys?

 

Is sex the big deciding factor? If the majority of guys could get sex easily (prostitution was legalized, sex bots invented, what have you) would most guys forget marriage altogether?

 

I keep reading "Unnatural Selection" and thinking, yes, it's sad about the female fetuses being aborted, but is there really a larger impact on the world? Is it really that big a deal if a lot of men can't find women to marry?

[Drseussgrrl]

Really? Another self-deprecating thread?

[verhrzn]

Really? Another self-deprecating thread?

 

Um... how is this self-deprecating? I don't mention myself in it at all. It's not "do men want relationships with ME." It's a general question based on what I'm reading. LIKE, for example "Is it really a big deal if a lot of men don't have marriage prospects?"

 

But.... way to read my post without jumping to conclusions.

[carhill]

But from my personal experiences and what I've read, it seems like men want relationships with specific kind of women. In order to want a relationship, a man must be absolutely nuts about the woman, so she must be smart, independent (but not too career-oriented), "feminine" but not naggy/needy/clingy/too passive/other-negative-"feminine"-qualities, and above all, gorgeous.

 

I was just posting about a younger lady I had dated in the age gap consolidated thread and noted, markedly, that my description of her outlined a lot of what you quoted, with one glaring exception; that she was conventionally 'gorgeous'. What I did note, over time (months), was that she appeared to become more gorgeous.

 

I think this underscores that each person's psychology is unique, though repetitive observations/experiences/anecdotes can cause one to form general conclusions, such as those you've formed in the quote above. That's reasonable.

 

Relevant to the topic of the thread, as well as the anecdote I offered, at that time I wanted to get married and have a family, so that is one anecdote of a man wanting a relationship. Other men and their anecdotes may or may not be similar. Apparently, your experiences indicate marked differences. That's valid.

[verhrzn]

Perhaps the question should be: if men had to settle for "lesser" women (however you qualify that; intelligence, looks, whatever), would they do so to attain a relationship?

 

It seems like a lot of women are told to lower their standards and "settle" in order to get married and have a relationship.... and they do it. I have yet to hear of a man who considered a relationship itself more important than who he was in the relationship with.

[Emilia]

I don't mention myself in it at all.

 

only a matter of time, you have already used the word 'gorgeous' so the comparison is going to come up in 5... 4.... 3.... 2..... 1....

[MrCastle]

I don't see how you can enter a relationship with someone you're not nuts about. That's doomed to fail in my opinion.

[verhrzn]

only a matter of time, you have already used the word 'gorgeous' so the comparison is going to come up in 5... 4.... 3.... 2..... 1....

 

How bout until I do, you stop jumping to conclusions and actually address the damn topic.

[tman666]

I have yet to hear of a man who considered a relationship itself more important than who he was in the relationship with.

 

They're out there, but I think most self confident, centered, normal adults don't think this way.

[ThaWholigan]

Each man has his own balance that he prefers. It is usually specific, but where the mistake is is that the specific is always the exact same specific that every other guy wants (the same mistake that guys here make when talking about women). There may probably be greater similarities in terms of looks (i.e. weight), but even then there are a clutch of men who, while they may not prefer it, probably won't care all that much if they really like you.

 

Regarding the question, yes men do want relationships. I would like one. But as you said, it is likely to be with a specific woman. That encompasses more than looks for some, and probably not for others. It's a wider spectrum than often thought.

[verhrzn]

I don't see how you can enter a relationship with someone you're not nuts about. That's doomed to fail in my opinion.

 

So is it an issue if a large majority of men cannot find women to marry? There are lots of predictions of China, India and Eastern European falling into chaos because the sex ratios are so skewered, but judging by what I see and hear about from guys (here in America, granted) I wonder if it's really a big deal for men to not marry.

[ThaWholigan]

So is it an issue if a large majority of men cannot find women to marry? There are lots of predictions of China, India and Eastern European falling into chaos because the sex ratios are so skewered, but judging by what I see and hear about from guys (here in America, granted) I wonder if it's really a big deal for men to not marry.

It's an issue if the guys who aren't getting married make it one.

 

I hold no guarantees that I will marry and have children. I may not. I don't think it is right for people to settle unless they are happy enough with that decision that they can comfortably do so without harboring resentment or misery at their decision. A lot of men would at least like to be sexually attracted to the women they marry, that seems to be very important.

[Drseussgrrl]

But we all know, based on your past threads and how you feel about yourself, that you're internalizing all of these answers because you, yourself, don't feel gorgeous and therefore think that a man will eventually have to "settle" for you instead of being nuts about you.

[dasein]

I started off seeking to have a full relationship with every woman I dated. I got endlessly abused, cheated on and mistreated, despite never being the archetypical nice guy. It took me a long time to realize that "you are really sincere" was a veiled insult by women of my generation.

 

So I started just dating and playing, did so for years, and then when again deciding to look for a relationship, dated over 100 women, and was faced with either 1. depression, insecurity and low self-esteem, if not full-blown personality disorders or 2. obvious materialism and "agenda fitting." The "1s" were too self-absorbed in their own issues to be in any kind of fulfilling relationship. The "2s" were demeaning, demanding and started bad, hostile behavior when it became apparent that I would not quickly supplicate and submit to their insta "relationship-marriage-mcmansion-children" agenda. I learned through experience that relationships today are not supposed to be a consensus, but a unilateral decree. I'd love to find some "3s," and may get out and look again some day, just not today.

 

Now, I just meet a woman, am the same person I've always been but a little wiser, treat them well, and enjoy the sex and companionship until the inevitable blowup that accompanies "1" "2" or both in combination. I wanted marriage, children and commitment, but not dictated unilaterally, so in time didn't care about any of those things any more. Am much happier now alternating between the peace and quiet of being alone, and the drama, stress, noise, and demands that seem to necessarily accompany companionship and sex. I commiserate with my married and divorced friends who were not as lucky and blessed as I was to avoid the ordeal.

 

Other than those 1:5 in happy marriages I know, and sometimes envy, they tell me how lucky I am several times a week, and I have come to see that they are right.

[TheBigQuestion]

Perhaps the question should be: if men had to settle for "lesser" women (however you qualify that; intelligence, looks, whatever), would they do so to attain a relationship?

 

It seems like a lot of women are told to lower their standards and "settle" in order to get married and have a relationship.... and they do it. I have yet to hear of a man who considered a relationship itself more important than who he was in the relationship with.

 

A lot of men who post here about their dating woes are often (erroneously) assumed to be chasing after only really hot women. Most of the time, that isn't the case. However, I see them getting advice to lower their standards (primarily physical, but others as well), in order to maximize their dating success.

 

I've heard of men who consider a relationship more important than the person. It was usually desperate men who really wanted anyone, just anyone, to take away their virginity/be their first girlfriend/be the love of their life, etc. It's a very strange way of thinking that in my experience is common in young, inexperienced, physically unattractive men, but virtually unheard of in any other male demographic.

[verhrzn]

But we all know, based on your past threads and how you feel about yourself, that you're internalizing all of these answers because you, yourself, don't feel gorgeous and therefore think that a man will eventually have to "settle" for you instead of being nuts about you.

 

Orrr I am ALSO interested in the idea that an excess of men will cause a global revolution. That Western governments encouraged population control and forced sterilization in the 60's and 70's in developed countries out of racist principles, in hopes that it would both cause social unrest (toppling communist governments) AND severely lower the number of non-Whites in the world.

 

Nope. I must only have ONE thought process and ONE interest.

 

I absolutely love how you folks chastise me for being so focused on looks and ME ME ME drama queen, and then when I come up with a completely relevant and not-at-all-me thread, you immediately chastise me because you just KNOW I am going to make it about me IN THE FUTURE.

 

Really can't win with you folks, can I?

[verhrzn]

A lot of men who post here about their dating woes are often (erroneously) assumed to be chasing after only really hot women. Most of the time, that isn't the case. However, I see them getting advice to lower their standards (primarily physical, but others as well), in order to maximize their dating success.

 

I've heard of men who consider a relationship more important than the person. It was usually desperate men who really wanted anyone, just anyone, to take away their virginity/be their first girlfriend/be the love of their life, etc. It's a very strange way of thinking that in my experience is common in young, inexperienced, physically unattractive men, but virtually unheard of in any other male demographic.

 

But that goes back to my original question.... is it all about the sex?

 

If unmarried men in China/India/America had access to easy sex (with no strings attached), would relationships/marriage have any value?

[carhill]

If unmarried men in China/India/America had access to easy sex (with no strings attached), would relationships/marriage have any value?

 

To those men who do want stable, intimate and satisfying relationships and marriages, sure. Is that every man or even many men? Absolutely not, IMO.

[verhrzn]

To those men who do want stable, intimate and satisfying relationships and marriages, sure. Is that every man or even many men? Absolutely not, IMO.

 

So how many is that? That's the fundamental question. Is it even a concern if there are 3 or 4 men to every 1 woman? It is demographically, certainly... it's a very fast way to halve the population within a few generations, since women can only carry so many offspring.

 

For example, if you stuck 1 man and 10 women on a desert island, excluding all other factors, within 9 months you could have 10 offspring.

 

If you stuck 10 men and 1 woman on a desert island, within 9 months you would only have 1 baby.

 

So it's a fast way to decrease human numbers, but is it important on an individual/emotional level? How many men would this actually effect negatively?

[TheBigQuestion]

So I started just dating and playing, did so for years, and then when again deciding to look for a relationship, dated over 100 women, and was faced with either 1. depression, insecurity and low self-esteem, if not full-blown personality disorders or 2. obvious materialism and "agenda fitting." The "1s" were too self-absorbed in their own issues to be in any kind of fulfilling relationship. The "2s" were demeaning, demanding and started bad, hostile behavior when it became apparent that I would not quickly supplicate and submit to their insta "relationship-marriage-mcmansion-children" agenda. I learned through experience that relationships today are not supposed to be a consensus, but a unilateral decree. I'd love to find some "3s," and may get out and look again some day, just not today.

 

As I settle into my mid-20s, I'm starting to hear more and more about the "2." women you've encountered. One of my good friend's psycho ex-girlfriend made it an essentially non-negotiable requirement that she have her first child by age 26. She wanted to move into a condo with him before then as well. They broke up for other reasons (more closely tied to her being a prime example of "1.") College educated, gainfully employed, but still lording her ridiculous expectations over a guy who would have to pool 90%+ of the resources required for her to achieve her goals in the first place.

 

I have other similar stories but they'd just get repetitive. It certainly appears to me that at my age, women are more likely to have a sequential plan detailing the exact points in their lives when they MUST have a certain house or live in a certain neighborhood. They will insist on taking steps to achieve those goals as soon as humanly possible rather than waiting for a time when doing so would actually be fiscally prudent.

 

I applaud you and anyone else who does not fall into the trap of a pre-fabricated life at the urging of a relationship partner.

[GorillaTheater]

If you stuck 10 men and 1 woman on a desert island, within 9 months you would only have 1 baby.

 

And if the example of the Bounty mutineers is any indication, only one or two men.

 

So yes, I'd say social upheaval in the event of the kind of disparity you're talking about is a very real possibility.

[ThaWholigan]

So how many is that? That's the fundamental question. Is it even a concern if there are 3 or 4 men to every 1 woman? It is demographically, certainly... it's a very fast way to halve the population within a few generations, since women can only carry so many offspring.

 

For example, if you stuck 1 man and 10 women on a desert island, excluding all other factors, within 9 months you could have 10 offspring.

 

If you stuck 10 men and 1 woman on a desert island, within 9 months you would only have 1 baby.

 

So it's a fast way to decrease human numbers, but is it important on an individual/emotional level? How many men would this actually effect negatively?

 

That's impossible to speculate, let alone answer. I'm guessing that quite a few of them would be affected negatively, depending on how one is able to reconcile their mental and emotional stability regarding companionship. Maybe about 75% of them?

 

What about if there's nobody else who wants to be in a relationship with you? If you only had the choice between being single forever or going in a relationship with someone who isn't too bad, would you stay single?

 

Yes.

[carhill]

So how many is that? That's the fundamental question. Is it even a concern if there are 3 or 4 men to every 1 woman?

 

Amongst my social group of males, perhaps just north of 50, there are two single men; myself and one perpetual bachelor. Everyone else is either married or with a long-term girlfriend. Some of the guys have gotten divorced while I've known them but were in a new relationship generally under a year from the breakup.

 

However, given the parameters you applied, meaning easy access to no-strings sex, I strongly suspect that ratio would change. Throw in a little companionship, even if transitory, perhaps more markedly so. Nearly everything in life includes some sort of compromise. To have relationships, both men and women compromise. Friends like my perpetual bachelor friend perhaps compromise less, but they are also single and their sexual and companionship dynamics vary markedly.

[verhrzn]

That's impossible to speculate, let alone answer. I'm guessing that quite a few of them would be affected negatively, depending on how one is able to reconcile their mental and emotional stability regarding companionship. Maybe about 75% of them?

 

Ah, but speculation is the whole point of this thread. I joked in a different thread that maybe we should send all of the single-and-over-30 women to China, since they'd have a better chance of finding men to marry.

 

I was just curious about this because the books talk about it as SUCH a devastating situation, both socially and individually. I see tons of guys swearing off relationships here in America (see: dasein), so I wonder if it can really be that big of a deal.

[Lonely Ronin]

That's impossible to speculate, let alone answer. I'm guessing that quite a few of them would be affected negatively, depending on how one is able to reconcile their mental and emotional stability regarding companionship. Maybe about 75% of them?

 

This, I mean this is an unanswerable question. The best your going to do is get a handful of opinions from LS male members. And we seem to fall into pretty much two groups.

 

1. those who treat women as people, ie the ones that want relationships.

2. the ones who see women as less than a man, and only want sex