it's all your fault!

[frozensprouts]

A question re: people who get involved in affairs...

 

something I have noticed since the first days when I came on this board ( was trying to work my through my husband having cheated) is that so many people who get involved in affairs ( be they married or other person) seem to almost be "swept along" with things and some even want to assign blame for their behaviors to the other person in the affair...

 

I can see if a married person lies to the other man/woman and says they are not married that they aren't really, in effect, responsible for their actions, as they made their decisions based on a complete lie ( i think there should be some special kind of torment for people who lie like that)...but I just don't get the lines like " it's his fault I am feeling bad right now" or " she made me do it"..it just seems so common...

 

I'm wondering what the reason is for this? Is it shifting the blame out of guilt over what happened, is it naivety, or is it that some people are just more easily influenced than others? Maybe a combination of the three?

 

I'm not trying to sound smug ( and I am sorry if it comes off that way), but I've been hit on by lots of married guys in my time, and I never give them a second glance. Even when I wasn't married I didn't, because they were married. I've also had married guys who were friends ( still do) , and few of them tried to turn it into something more ( you can kind of tell what's up when they start lamenting the state of their marriage:laugh:)...again, as soon as that happens, the friendship is over. The nice words just kind of bounce off...had I decided to get involved with one of the, that , and any negative fallout, would have been on me.

 

I was fortunate in that my husband didn't blame "the other woman" for what happened...but she did try and blame him, me and everyone else...still does, and I know that I'm going to hear about it all over again from her at the upcoming squadron holiday party...for some reason, her new thing is to try and convince me that "it was all his fault" or "it's all your fault" or " I didn't know what I was doing"...:laugh::laugh::laugh: come on, at 35 years of age you didn't know what you were doing?

 

it's so lame that it's funny, and I can actually find something amusing about it now ( i probably shouldn't, but finding it funny is better than finding it sad...she's supposed to stay well away from me, but I kind of let it pass at these functions, as it's just easier that way)...

 

I think I'm just trying to understand that mindset a bit more...for people like her, why is everything always someone else's fault?

[Spark1111]

FS, I think some people just enjoy all the sympathy they can evoke by being the perpetual victim.

 

The love the attention as they probably never got enough of it as a child, or are still licking old wounds.

 

it is ALWAYS someone else's fault, dontchknow?

 

personally, and after my childhood, I find such people fatiguing.

 

More interesting to me are those who respond to it; want to fix it; or somehow relish the role of rescuer.

 

What is in it for them to succumb to these damsels and dumsels in distress?

 

that's a whole other pathology; the need to be someone's hero (good!) but at the cost of their own family and reputation.

[Realist3]

I'm sure a good many people might play the blame game for justification for their actions, but that wasn't the case for me.

 

Over the course of our marriage and both us maturing, I realized there were things I needed from our relationship that she was just not capable of fulfilling. It wasn't her fault, it is just who she was, and I was smart enough to know that I was not ever going to "change" her. While 70% of our relationship was good to great, that last 30% nagged at me and made me feel incomplete.

 

I wasn't looking for an affair by any stretch. By happestance I met my MW at my kids elementary school. It started with 2-5 minute conversations at school pickup. Just innocent stuff, but the chemistry was very evident. I had no idea what would follow into an LTA. She friended me on Facebook after a conversation with several other school moms that I was FB friends with, and the rest is history, or history in the making.

 

I don't blame my wife for that in any way. It is all on me.

[Realist3]

FS, I think some people just enjoy all the sympathy they can evoke by being the perpetual victim.

 

The love the attention as they probably never got enough of it as a child, or are still licking old wounds.

 

it is ALWAYS someone else's fault, dontchknow?

 

personally, and after my childhood, I find such people fatiguing.

 

More interesting to me are those who respond to it; want to fix it; or somehow relish the role of rescuer.

 

What is in it for them to succumb to these damsels and dumsels in distress?

 

that's a whole other pathology; the need to be someone's hero (good!) but at the cost of their own family and reputation.

 

I don't know if I agree with all of that. Some people are hurt deep down in a marriage by evets over time. It can make them bitter and resentful.

 

My MW was deeply hurt by her H's own affair, and so for her it started out as a revenge affair for her.

[Furious]

There are real victims in this world, victims of abuse, poverty, and disease.

 

Then there's another group of victims, victims of their own making, who would rather blame anyone but themselves for the poor choices they make.

 

It's like stepping on a pile of sh*t and blaming the dog, instead of watching where they were going.

[Decorative]

FS, I think some people just enjoy all the sympathy they can evoke by being the perpetual victim.

 

The love the attention as they probably never got enough of it as a child, or are still licking old wounds.

 

it is ALWAYS someone else's fault, dontchknow?

 

personally, and after my childhood, I find such people fatiguing.

 

More interesting to me are those who respond to it; want to fix it; or somehow relish the role of rescuer.

 

What is in it for them to succumb to these damsels and dumsels in distress?

 

that's a whole other pathology; the need to be someone's hero (good!) but at the cost of their own family and reputation.

 

Is it comfy in my head? Can I bring you a beverage? LOL

 

This has been my experience , as well. And the OW in our situation is a perpetual victim. It's a stupid long story - but I had cause to look at her Pinterest and FB awhile back ( because she was crying victim again- and I had done nothing at all)- and she is a perpetual victim. At every possible opportunity .

[MissBee]

I really think it's about self-awareness.

 

Some people have more of it than others.

 

This comes up in all kinds of ways. There was another thread (might have also been yours) on the OW/OM board where there was a debate about knowing an A is wrong and feeling badly about it versus seeming to have no kind of awareness of how it's wrong. My opinion was that there is a difference in awareness that contributes to those mentalities. There was also a discussion about if the MP doesn't respect their marriage then why should the OW/OM do so and for me I also feel that mentality is this kind of deferring to another's feelings to determine your own....why do you need to do that? Their own feelings about their marriage should be a priori and have really nothing to do with you...so why does your choice always come back to pointing out how you were "invited" (this term always cracks me up, as I literally imagine a fancy invitation coming in the mail to be a part of an affair )? Like you said, you've gotten propositioned by married folks and chose to turn them down...that choice was solely yours. No other individual was implicated in it. You didn't care what was wrong with their marriage, as rightfully, that really makes NO difference in your choice. I do see it as a difference in accountability.

 

People who always make excuses or lay blame at the feet of everyone else have to lack a certain degree of self-awareness and accountability. My dad is a serial cheater who blames everyone else for why he does what he does, and he is also like this in general, where he always needs to be right and can never admit when he is wrong. When he makes mistakes he can never just say "My bad, I messed up", instead he literally grabs at straws, reaching for ANYTHING to say why it wasn't really his fault. It is a bit sad and childish to me. It is apparent to me that this is completely insane, but to him, it is reasonable.

 

While I was in an A, I have to say, I respect the fact that my former AP at least didn't blame anyone for what he was doing. He took full responsibility and did not need to berate, downplay or rewrite to make it ok. He acknowledged why he was doing it and lay that squarely on himself. It doesn't render his actions "good", but it at least makes it seem like he at least made a conscious choice versus my dad's stance of blaming other people or other people's stance of acting like they're helpless and are just swept away. The difference between my exAP and my dad for example, is that I don't think my exAP has any deep-seated psychological issues and break from reality in which he truly feels like the victim and that nothing is wrong with the A or has a pathological need to avoid accountability. My dad on the other hand acts that way. My AP is a lot more rational and less "dangerous" in that he owns up to and can admit and feel remorse for his behavior...but my dad does not and therefore never stops.

Edited November 29, 2012 by MissBee

[j'adore]

My H disconnected with me emotionally months or maybe years before I met MM,. I fell out of love with him because of that. I wish I hadn't. So in a way it was his fault, he tried to show feelings after he found out but i was already gone. Of course I am not perfect but I fell out of love with him.

[Decorative]

Miss bee-

 

Excellent point. Awareness. Exactly.

 

As an example-the OW in my sitch pinned a pin about karma, and made a statement about hoping it catches those who deserve it.

 

She is a serial OW.

 

And while I don't believe in karma- she apparently does, and just doesn't understand that she should not be inviting that concept into her life. It would not treat her well. if it existed.

[cocorico]

I think this is true of most people in every relationship. People don't want to own their stuff, and that's a problem whether it's an affair, a marriage, a parent/child relationship or otherwise. People would rather blame someone else for the way they are feeling rather than own their emotions and have to perhaps enact positive change.

 

This was certainly true of my H's xW! She blamed everything on someone else - usually the nearest male - and has never in her who.e life that anyone can recall accepted personal responsibility for everything. If she wanted to go out and the weather turned out bad, she'd find some way of blaming the weather on others.

 

By contrast, my H has always accepted responsibility for everything (yes,even the weather...) which I suppose he just had to do to try to keep the peace. Even now I sometimes have to stop him apologising for things that are no one's "fault", like heavy traffic or trains arriving late or sudden cloudbursts. And of course if his IC hadn't helped him to see what was his, and what was her, doing in the M, he'd probably still buy into her version that he is solely responsible for all the evil in the world.

 

Personally, I've never been one to try to push the blame elsewhere. I've never been a victim and have no intention of ever becoming one. I own my decisions and choices proudly, I'm happy with my life and the way I've lived it and would never seek to disempower myself by pushing any of that onto anyone else.

[MissBee]

FS, I think some people just enjoy all the sympathy they can evoke by being the perpetual victim.

 

The love the attention as they probably never got enough of it as a child, or are still licking old wounds.

 

it is ALWAYS someone else's fault, dontchknow?

 

personally, and after my childhood, I find such people fatiguing.

 

More interesting to me are those who respond to it; want to fix it; or somehow relish the role of rescuer.

 

What is in it for them to succumb to these damsels and dumsels in distress?

 

that's a whole other pathology; the need to be someone's hero (good!) but at the cost of their own family and reputation.

 

 

That's the making of many "true love" codepent relationships...

 

Loving your split-self MM for all eternity as he is the victim of his inability to free himself from a prison of his own making.

 

I got caught up in such a drama for a stint and also began making excuses for my ex at the time. I was like a mother with a wayward child, who instead of applying tough love, just coddled and coddled and tried to shield the child from the big, bad world. Them choosing to be delinquent was not their fault! It was the fault of the bad people...or the bad BS who can't love him well enough...or the bad society who forced his poor weak heart into marriage...

 

I have to admit, it is fatiguing to me as well, having succumbed to such a mindset for a short while. Now that I've recovered from such needs...I don't really buy it and it often does more harm than good.

[cocorico]

. There was also a discussion about if the MP doesn't respect their marriage then why should the OW/OM do so and for me I also feel that mentality is this kind of deferring to another's feelings to determine your own....why do you need to do that? Their own feelings about their marriage should be a priori and have really nothing to do with you...so why does your choice always come back to pointing out how you were "invited" (this term always cracks me up, as I literally imagine a fancy invitation coming in the mail to be a part of an affair )?

 

I think you are conflating two different issues here.

 

I do not respect M as an institution, so someone being M would not deter me in my consideration of whether or not they were a suitable prospective romantic interest. I'm happy to own that.

 

However, if *they* respected and valued their own M, then even if I hit on them, they would not consider participating. That much is on _them_. I cannot assume responsibility as the guardian of their M. That is their business, and if they choose to disrespect it by engaging in an A, that is their choice and their responsibility, not mine.

 

The two do not negate each other nor encompass each other. They are two entirely separate issues. Whether or not I respect M is not contingent on the respect or lack of shown by a particular MM towards their own M - that is my own choice. However, the respect or lack of that I may show toward a particular M will inevitably be influenced by the regard or lack thereof shown by the participants in that M toward it. If they treat it as a thing of respect and honour, I will regard it with due honour and respect. If they trash it and disrespect it and treat it as inconsequential, then I will regard it as inconsequential because to me a R is not a piece of paper, it is a living breathing enactment of practices and sentiments as given life and form by those in it. If the life and form they give to it is a smelly pile of rotting garbage, then that is how I will regard it.

[MissBee]

I think you are conflating two different issues here.

 

I do not respect M as an institution, so someone being M would not deter me in my consideration of whether or not they were a suitable prospective romantic interest. I'm happy to own that.

 

However, if *they* respected and valued their own M, then even if I hit on them, they would not consider participating. That much is on _them_. I cannot assume responsibility as the guardian of their M. That is their business, and if they choose to disrespect it by engaging in an A, that is their choice and their responsibility, not mine.

 

The two do not negate each other nor encompass each other. They are two entirely separate issues. Whether or not I respect M is not contingent on the respect or lack of shown by a particular MM towards their own M - that is my own choice. However, the respect or lack of that I may show toward a particular M will inevitably be influenced by the regard or lack thereof shown by the participants in that M toward it. If they treat it as a thing of respect and honour, I will regard it with due honour and respect. If they trash it and disrespect it and treat it as inconsequential, then I will regard it as inconsequential because to me a R is not a piece of paper, it is a living breathing enactment of practices and sentiments as given life and form by those in it. If the life and form they give to it is a smelly pile of rotting garbage, then that is how I will regard it.

 

You're speaking about your take on the issue, and have differentiated between M as an institution and a particular M...that's your breakdown. Your take on M is that in general you don't value it. I certainly get you and you're entitled to that view. I know others who don't believe in marriage...but who believe in relationships and whether you value a M or not doesn't take away from the fact that a married person is in a relationship with another person. Period. Marriage just explains what kind of relationship it is. But what marriage does is clue you in on the fact that this person is not single, and thus in some kind of relationship with another...and if you're in an A, obviously it is an active one, or else you'd not need to be in an A.In any case, I digress. Point is, not everyone in the thread I referenced , felt the same way you do. Other people gave different explanations and explanations that made no sense to me. Therefore you cannot speak as though every person in the thread felt as you did. The only way I would be conflating two separate things, would be if I was rebutting your specific position. I wasn't.

 

My point was exactly as you said, that one's choice to respect or not respect something is one's own choice and one need not defer to another person to know how they feel about that...as your own stance, hopefully, should have been developed way before meeting them and knowing their position.

 

Many OW come on LS who do value M and who do say As are wrong in their eyes....but who then turn around and rationalize it and say that they would never be in the A if they felt he was happy or if he didn't pursue them and invite them in. That mentality is what I'm thinking about and what doesn't make sense, and which seems to simply use another person's feelings or agency to explain your behavior.

Edited November 29, 2012 by MissBee

[TheCollector]

My H disconnected with me emotionally months or maybe years before I met MM' date='. I fell out of love with him because of that. I wish I hadn't. So in a way it was his fault, he tried to show feelings after he found out but i was already gone. Of course I am not perfect but I fell out of love with him.[/quote']

 

 

I'm sorry but your exactly what this thread is about....you are blaming him being distant for your affair....if you weren't happy with how he was being you should have told him and how to fix it....if he didn't fix it then you should've left....NOT CHEATED.

 

Nothing is wrong with falling out of love...it happens. But its no excuse for lies and causing pain.

[Spark1111]

That's the making of many "true love" codepent relationships...

 

Loving your split-self MM for all eternity as he is the victim of his inability to free himself from a prison of his own making.

 

I got caught up in such a drama for a stint and also began making excuses for my ex at the time. I was like a mother with a wayward child, who instead of applying tough love, just coddled and coddled and tried to shield the child from the big, bad world. Them choosing to be delinquent was not their fault! It was the fault of the bad people...or the bad BS who can't love him well enough...or the bad society who forced his poor weak heart into marriage...

 

I have to admit, it is fatiguing to me as well, having succumbed to such a mindset for a short while. Now that I've recovered from such needs...I don't really buy it and it often does more harm than good.

 

Well this is the point I think becomes obvious with the blamers, and the victims; it becomes oh so empowering to be the savior, the rescuer, the only one who's true love with have the Phoenix rising from the ashes...

 

Your love alone will make them happy, complete and whole! That's power like you have NEVER had and what a heady aphrodisiac that it, may be for the first time in your lonely, victimized life.

 

Mental health experts will assert that being overly consumed with the saving of another is truly a diversion for working on and saving yourself!

 

I learned along time ago that to refuse to be responsible for the happiness and actions of another. (Lots of therapy)

 

Everyone is responsible for their own life, choices and happiness after the age of maturity. I like stable folk, those who have already saved themselves.

 

They make ugh better partners. And I have had enough drama in my childhood, and therapy in adulthood, to avoid the needy, attention-seeking drama kings and queens.

 

It doesn't make me feel more alive, more vibrant, more sexual.

[cocorico]

Which it is why it is important as both the OW and the BS to concentrate on your own life and personal progress rather than obsess about the WS/MM. Your partner may have issues but they are his to deal with, not yours.

 

Absolutely! I agree completely! I would certainly never become anyone's saviour. Crosses look awfully uncomfortable, anyway, but I've never been the social worky type.

[seren]

Which it is why it is important as both the OW and the BS to concentrate on your own life and personal progress rather than obsess about the WS/MM. Your partner may have issues but they are his to deal with, not yours.

 

I agree that everyone, regardless has personal responsibility for their actions, issues and life, however, I would add that the 'marriage' as separate from the relationship of those in the marriage, includes a whole raft of other joint responsibilities, agreements. As in any joint agreement, business or personal, when the actions of one have the impact to change the dynamics or agreed norms for either, the right thing to do is to let that person know, so they can make an informed choice about whether they wish to continue with the relationship.

 

This might mean deciding not to support the other financially, emotionally or practically to enable them to (in this instance) continue with a relationship that is not part of the shared agreement. This might be, putting in extra hours to provide additional income for the benefit of both, taking on responsibilities that are shared, but shouldering the majority so the other can be free to do what they choose, even something as simple as paying their share for a mobile phone bill or internet connection. Marriage and all the intertwined connections is not simply about the needs and wants of one, its very nature is of a shared, agreed norm, when that changes without the knowledge of the other, they should surely concern themselves with that. Most of us simply want the truth to enable us to make informed choices, when someone makes those choices for you, it does, IMHO rob you (general) of a basic human right, that of self autonomy. When someone is telling lies or not giving the truth they know will effect the life of the other, it is only for their own benefit, truth costs nothing other than facing up to your (general) own actions and owning your own actions - nothing wrong with expecting and giving that to another.

Edited November 30, 2012 by seren

[woinlove]

A question re: people who get involved in affairs...

 

 

I notice you clearly posted your thread about people who get involved in affairs, later explaining the ones who were lied to and didn't know they were in an affair are different and you are not talking about them. And, yet, some insist on talking about the betrayed spouses not accepting responsibility or being responsible. Gives a direct example into what you are talking about - pointing fingers elsewhere, nothing to see here, where you want to look.

 

I think, as you suggest, it can be a combination of all 3, but it can also be what MissBee brought up in another thread, the mental state and support the person has. I think many people who get involved in affairs and then blame others are broken in some way and if they were in a healthier emotional and mental state, they may very well choose not to have an A or to get out of it quickly (whether by divorcing or ending the relationship with their AP/MP) and be interested in learning from their choices and behavior. Some are broken in such a way that they are closed off from change, others may be open to change with the right support. The fOW in your particular case sounds like she is not in a healthy mental state and likely could only be helped by a combination of very close family or friends and professionals.

Edited November 30, 2012 by woinlove

[frozensprouts]

I notice you clearly posted your thread about people who get involved in affairs, later explaining the ones who were lied to and didn't know they were in an affair are different and you are not talking about them. And, yet, some insist on talking about the betrayed spouses not accepting responsibility or being responsible. Gives a direct example into what you are talking about - pointing fingers elsewhere, nothing to see here, where you want to look.

 

I think, as you suggest, it can be a combination of all 3, but it can also be what MissBee brought up in another thread, the mental state and support the person has. I think many people who get involved in affairs and then blame others are broken in some way and if they were in a healthier emotional and mental state, they may very well choose not to have an A or to get out of it quickly (whether by divorcing or ending the relationship with their AP/MP) and be interested in learning from their choices and behavior. Some are broken in such a way that they are closed off from change, others may be open to change with the right support. The fOW in your particular case sounds like she is not in a healthy mental state and likely could only be helped by a combination of very close family or friends and professionals.

 

That is a good point.

 

The thing that I think some don't understand is that it's not the wayward spouse not wanting to be married anymore or "falling out of love" with their spouse that's the problem...it's the lying, the shifting of blame, and the avoidance of responsibility that is the issue....most people on here are adults, and from my perspective, if you are an adult, then don't try and pass the blame onto everyone else...

 

if a married person makes the choice to get involved in an affair, then accept responsibility for that choice...don't blame your betrayed spouse or the other man/woman. The same is true for the 'other person".

 

It's not even saying that anyone involved in an affair situation has to accept "blame", but rather there does seem to be quite a bit of " it's all someone else's fault" when it doesn't work

[frozensprouts]

I guess neither Neo nor I fit your description then, since we both take full responsibility for our choice to have a relationship with each other in spite of the fact that Neo is married.

 

actually, you both do fit the description.

 

the only difference is that you blame "split self" ( is this the same as dissociative personality disorder?), " the power of first love" or whatever else you can for the affair...then you go on to say that if his wife or you get hurt, that's not because of you or him, but rather his "split self personality" ( seriously, what the heck does that even really mean?) making him act the way he does...that's nothing more than an excuse with another name...accepting full responsibility would mean that you don't try to explain it away with psychobabble

 

you stick a label on it to excuse it, but that changes nothing. it is what it is.

[Decorative]

If neo truly took responsibility, he would tell his wife the truth. period.

[Spark1111]

That is a good point.

 

The thing that I think some don't understand is that it's not the wayward spouse not wanting to be married anymore or "falling out of love" with their spouse that's the problem...it's the lying, the shifting of blame, and the avoidance of responsibility that is the issue....most people on here are adults, and from my perspective, if you are an adult, then don't try and pass the blame onto everyone else...

 

if a married person makes the choice to get involved in an affair, then accept responsibility for that choice...don't blame your betrayed spouse or the other man/woman. The same is true for the 'other person".

 

It's not even saying that anyone involved in an affair situation has to accept "blame", but rather there does seem to be quite a bit of " it's all someone else's fault" when it doesn't work

 

yes, like supposedly it was my fault he had a two year affair relationship he described as "two lonely people who nobody wanted."..sigh...

 

WHAT?????????????

 

We wanted him! He just made himself unavailable from us to be with her, the drama queen victim.

 

I only wanted his paycheck apparently, as their affair progressed.

 

WHAT?????????????????????

 

I was working three jobs and did not know of a private expense account he used to squire her around.

 

He "forgot" how much I loved him...

 

WHAT?????? Imagine that? No one of the hundreds of friends, family and acquaintances we shared could even fathom that statement.

 

In therapy he learned he meshed his world view with her world view; parroted her beliefs and anger; and blamed me as she blamed her mean xH.

 

Hey! I guess it was something to bond over, being victimized by your own imagination.

[Spark1111]

Why are you screaming? Are you still this upset years after the EMR? Have you seen a counselor?

 

Who's screaming?

 

Caps to emphasize the preposterousness of shared self-delusion and projection based nothing in reality..... and those who claim or wish to believe it MUST be true, therefore, the need to blame others who are, or should be, blameless.

 

I should have included , or this:laugh: so all would get the intended irony you missed.

[frozensprouts]

just reading some of the responses on here really goes to show just how twisted affairs really are...

 

the feelings around them seem to chnage depending on who you talk to and what's going on...

 

the wayward husband, who may have had a truck load of "explanations" while the affair was going on that made his behavior seem okay to the other woman ( honestly, who would want to have much to do with someone who said " there's no real reason for me treating my spouse like a jerk , so he has to "explain' to his other woman and also to himself), but when the affair ends, his "explanation" that he gives to his spouse may suddenly becone very differnet than that which he gave his other woman...

 

I sometimes wonder what the differences in the story would be if the other woman and wife were to compare notes after the affair...what "explanations' would have been made, and who would the wayward spous have "blamed" for the affair?

[j'adore]

I'm sorry but your exactly what this thread is about....you are blaming him being distant for your affair....if you weren't happy with how he was being you should have told him and how to fix it....if he didn't fix it then you should've left....NOT CHEATED.

 

Nothing is wrong with falling out of love...it happens. But its no excuse for lies and causing pain.

 

UGH?? I didn't lie, I got divorced!!!

 

And if i had not fallen out of love, I would not have fallen in love, it is not an excuse it is a fact.