Don't believe it's the truth, but it might be...

[CantgetoveritNY]

OP, I think you are dwelling on something that makes no difference. Why does it matter at this point what he thought about her tattoo. I understand that it seems like it matters to you right now, but from where I'm sitting, it has no bearing on the cheating or attempt at reconciliation.

 

As much as I logically can see your point, I can emotionally see where he is coming from. I know something like the tattoo issue seems pointless to you. Silly. Minor. But things like this become larger than they should. Beyond all reason. I am feeling the pain of the OP that wants to know about the tattoo. But I thank you mamasita for reminding us both that we have lost our heads in a very bad place.

[CantgetoveritNY]

Here is the problem you will never know the entire truth and will still have to make a decision, base on your best estimation of your relationship with your wife. You can have her sit for a polygraph and she will answer a limited number of questions. This may help you to some extent, but it will never answer all your questions. Again, I’m sorry that you are in this position, my best wishes to you, no matter what you decide.

 

I don't agree with a lot of what you have said but your bottom line rings true. Neither he nor I nor anyone can read another's mind. At some point you have to just decide to go ahead or stop. There is no crystal ball that can guarantee your future. Live. Live and see where that gets you.

[Mr. Lucky]

Again, the trust she regains will be determined on what takes place on a daily basis going forward. Not re-living the past.

I may be in the BS minority but I have to agree with this. Once you've covered the basics - how many times, what positions, who did what, who said what, who enjoyed what - at some point it stops being productive. Enough has to be enough, not for the WS sake but for your own ability to move forward. I look at it this way - if 18 months post D Day I'm still asking my wife questions about her OM's manscape, then I have my own answer - time to exit the marriage because I'm not going ever got over the hump...

 

Mr. Lucky

[CantgetoveritNY]

[quote=Alice2012;4424923

 

Schedule and pay for the test and give her the date. My husband started spilling more information I asked as soon as he got forwarded the email confirmation for the test. He knew if he didn't take the test, I would serve him and if he failed he would get served.

 

If your wife has nothing to hide, she will welcome the test.

 

Do the test. As limited as the benefits are it is worth it.

[Cb3657]

I think what being said is

Nothing you find out from this point in the process should make any difference and is just going to be a small detail you can have in your ongoing nightmare replays of this betrayal, it can even be counterproductive by making it more and more detailed, soon you will be able to smell the sex.

If you really believe she continues to lie then you should leave it is the only leverage you have left and may be the only answer here. She may continue to try to satisfy your requests for information and go to the lie detector test but sooner or later you have to reset or leave.

My opinion the lie detector is not over the line considering what happened to you but I gotta ask if she is still lieing will it change anything for you? Will you say "that's enough you will never be honest" and leave or are you paying just to test, in other words is there any consequence to her if she is still lieing?

[CantgetoveritNY]

I agree ober. But I'm having trouble moving forward when I still feel like she's not being %100 honest. She has done eveything I could have asked for since dday, but it would all be meaningless to me if she has continued to lie. As I've read many times here, the lies and deception hurt worst than the physical part of the affair.

 

Seriously? Where is duck soup? Something hurt worse than knowing another man put his cock into your wife?! Are you serious?

[Decorative]

Seriously? Where is duck soup? Something hurt worse than knowing another man put his cock into your wife?! Are you serious?

 

The emotional attachment hurt me more than the sex acts.

 

The combination of the two is terrible.

 

I don't think that is an unusual feeling.

[2sunny]

Sure she lied.

 

You seriously think she's gonna tell some guy who's pounding her from behind that he's capable of reading hubby's name on her @ss while doing her?

 

No way.

[whichwayisup]

It may be the way he thinks is the only way, but is it truly the only way or even the best way?

 

I can't imagine any counseling professional suggesting digging into the deepest and darkest of wounds to re-open them as a successful means of moving forward.

 

The largest truth is out in the open. The how, when, and "what was everyone thinking/told" is pretty inconsequential at this point. Even Ray suggested the tattoo is irrelevant, it is his doubting her honesty.

 

The trust he is seeking will not be found in the past, but moving forward; if that is what he so chooses.

 

Instead of picking apart my replies, and focusing on what you think is helpful or not about what advice I give, why not just focus on your own replies to Ray? Thanks.

[2sunny]

He stated he doesn't know if it is the truth or not. Yet, you are making the judgement she is not telling the truth. That is a never ending fiasco.

 

You suggested he take her to a polygraph test. He finds out she is telling the truth, then what? Does that mean she will be forever telling the truth? NOPE! Is he going to run down to the police station everytime in his mind he has doubts? That is no foundation for a relationship.

 

Again, the trust she regains will be determined on what takes place on a daily basis going forward. Not re-living the past.

 

But to move forward - one must have a starting point, yes?

 

He wants to know her truth. Nothing wrong with that - she cheated, remember?

 

Cheaters lie.

[Steadfast]

First some observations, then a comment. Hopefully, both will help you.

 

-It sounds like your divorce was punishment, not to separate and go your own ways. That being the case, you're less 'divorced' than a lot of married people I know. There's healing in here somewhere, but you're ignoring it.

 

-Second observation: $4-500 for a polygraph? To determine if a liar is lying to you? That's just stupid. You need to be building on the facts you have, not chasing your tail. You'll go round and round endlessly.

 

-Seems to me what you want to know is; did she have a romantic connection with this guy? And if so, how was the subject of you, her husband and lover, brought up? Were you mocked, or did the 'presence' of your existence hinder their connection and enjoyment? See I wondered that too, with my cheating ex. Her answer: "I put you out of my mind."

 

Somehow, that didn't make me feel any better.

 

And that's the point. You can have every detail imaginable recorded, and still wonder where her head and heart is. Or wonder if she'll do it again. But even for people with no infidelity in their lives, there is no guarantee. For anyone. Her trustworthiness lies in her actions; both the ones you see, and the ones you don't. Does she want to be trusted, or does she just want you to trust her? Very different things. You must learn this truth.

 

Finally, I'll say this...and wonder if anyone else here sees it my way.

 

IMO, it may be impossible to discover her level of enjoyment during sex with him. Even though she may have thought it was great then, that enjoyment might now be viewed as too-high a price to pay for the pain it caused. Maybe I'm weird, but if someone asked me to describe in detail what happened the last seven times I was with a woman...I'd have a very difficult time recalling that verbally. The obvious things (do you or did you love her, did you enjoy it, did you regret it later) would be easy to answer, but I don't jot the play-by-play down in journal. Who does that? Seriously?

 

Get real with this situation friend. I know it doesn't seem like it now, but these are simple things to handle. Not easy things. Simple things. Do it.

[meandmyself]

First some observations, then a comment. Hopefully, both will help you.

 

-It sounds like your divorce was punishment, not to separate and go your own ways. That being the case, you're less 'divorced' than a lot of married people I know. There's healing in here somewhere, but you're ignoring it.

 

-Second observation: $4-500 for a polygraph? To determine if a liar is lying to you? That's just stupid. You need to be building on the facts you have, not chasing your tail. You'll go round and round endlessly.

 

-Seems to me what you want to know is; did she have a romantic connection with this guy? And if so, how was the subject of you, her husband and lover, brought up? Were you mocked, or did the 'presence' of your existence hinder their connection and enjoyment? See I wondered that too, with my cheating ex. Her answer: "I put you out of my mind."

 

Somehow, that didn't make me feel any better.

 

And that's the point. You can have every detail imaginable recorded, and still wonder where her head and heart is. Or wonder if she'll do it again. But even for people with no infidelity in their lives, there is no guarantee. For anyone. Her trustworthiness lies in her actions; both the ones you see, and the ones you don't. Does she want to be trusted, or does she just want you to trust her? Very different things. You must learn this truth.

 

Finally, I'll say this...and wonder if anyone else here sees it my way.

 

IMO, it may be impossible to discover her level of enjoyment during sex with him. Even though she may have thought it was great then, that enjoyment might now be viewed as too-high a price to pay for the pain it caused. Maybe I'm weird, but if someone asked me to describe in detail what happened the last seven times I was with a woman...I'd have a very difficult time recalling that verbally. The obvious things (do you or did you love her, did you enjoy it, did you regret it later) would be easy to answer, but I don't jot the play-by-play down in journal. Who does that? Seriously?

 

Get real with this situation friend. I know it doesn't seem like it now, but these are simple things to handle. Not easy things. Simple things. Do it.

 

I am sorry but I disagree... you can't beguine something new if you have not closed the past... and yes, I have realized by now too that is very possible that what Ray wants to know is if they were talking or laughing at him at that point... that would also be important for me... I could not go ahead with a person that not only cheated on me but mocked me while doing it...

 

Just because something didn't work for you it does not mean that it won't work for the OP.

 

He doesn't want to know the truth to the full extend that you describe... he just want to know the answers to the concrete questions that are bugging his mind... I can relate to that.

Edited December 3, 2012 by meandmyself

[CantgetoveritNY]

The emotional attachment hurt me more than the sex acts.

 

The combination of the two is terrible.

 

I don't think that is an unusual feeling.

 

Yes, but you are a woman, right? Read the thread "how a betrayed husband feels." I know the most important things are different from men to women. I'm just reminding the OP that he probably is not being honest with himself about the importance of this issue as compared to other issues that he does have her honest answer for. If he thinks about it he will realize he has the answers to the most important questions already. I'm not saying he does not need more answers but to characterize them as more important is fooling himself.

[meandmyself]

Yes, but you are a woman, right? Read the thread "how a betrayed husband feels." I know the most important things are different from men to women. I'm just reminding the OP that he probably is not being honest with himself about the importance of this issue as compared to other issues that he does have her honest answer for. If he thinks about it he will realize he has the answers to the most important questions already. I'm not saying he does not need more answers but to characterize them as more important is fooling himself.

 

I agree with you only partly... while as a man I recognize that the physical part of an affair tortures me more than the emotional... if I would find out that they cheating party was also mocking me while cheating that would be really a deal breaker for me...

 

I think OP just wants to understand how WS and OM used to talk about him... obviously he would have expected one of this possible conversations to beguine once OM asked about tattoo...

[Steadfast]

I am sorry but I disagree...Just because something didn't work for you it does not mean that it won't work for the OP.

 

Frankly, I fail to see how your disagreement helps anyone. Did Ray appoint you as his spokesperson? That's the position you seem to have taken.

 

It goes without saying that different methods of healing help different people heal. Nothing you wrote changes the fact that Ray can know or not know absolute details and ultimately, he will have to decide whether or not he chooses to trust his ex again. My experience may be personal and unique, but human nature and behavior is not. Post your advice. Leave mine alone.

[Realist3]

Instead of picking apart my replies, and focusing on what you think is helpful or not about what advice I give, why not just focus on your own replies to Ray? Thanks.

 

Maybe I was misreading, but I believe you were picking apart other people's advice they were giving the OP. Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

[meandmyself]

Frankly, I fail to see how your disagreement helps anyone. Did Ray appoint you as his spokesperson? That's the position you seem to have taken.

 

It goes without saying that different methods of healing help different people heal. Nothing you wrote changes the fact that Ray can know or not know absolute details and ultimately, he will have to decide whether or not he chooses to trust his ex again. My experience may be personal and unique, but human nature and behavior is not. Post your advice. Leave mine alone.

 

well since within your advice you where dismissing mine (without mention me or quoting me but still dismissing my advise stating yours like it would be the real truth..)... I felt I was in my right to respond (same way you just did...)

[Realist3]

Frankly, I fail to see how your disagreement helps anyone. Did Ray appoint you as his spokesperson? That's the position you seem to have taken.

 

It goes without saying that different methods of healing help different people heal. Nothing you wrote changes the fact that Ray can know or not know absolute details and ultimately, he will have to decide whether or not he chooses to trust his ex again. My experience may be personal and unique, but human nature and behavior is not. Post your advice. Leave mine alone.

 

Excellent post.

[Steadfast]

well since within your advice you where dismissing mine (without mention me or quoting me...)

 

Whatever. Bad advice dismisses itself upon application.

 

Ray, you'll never know everything. I understand you wanting to know, but do not let the search consume you. That's my advice. In time, you'll discover the answers you need are inside of you. Only you have them.

[meandmyself]

Whatever. Bad advice dismisses itself upon application.

 

Ray, you'll never know everything. I understand you wanting to know, but do not let the search consume you. That's my advice. In time, you'll discover the answers you need are inside of you. Only you have them.

 

Lol, thank you for enlighten us wise man . I don't know what it would be of us without your advises.

 

Ray, just do what you feel to do, if you feel you need more information, you are entitled to ask! Do you want to go to the polygraph? Then go!

 

You want to forget and move on, then do so...

 

At the end of the day here what counts is what you need to heal, some people prefer to think it never happened, some people prefer to acknowledge and get the full picture, is not black and white is just different by person...

[raykinsella]

Update: I discussed the polygraph with her. At first she was "insulted" and said it hurt her feelings. She said she would do it though. Then she said go ahead and ask me anything you want and I promise I will tell you the truth, even if I had lied previoulsy over the last 3 months. Without giving all the details, she did admit to lying about a few things. She originally told me she gave him oral once, last night she said it was twice. She had told me that she never verbally said "i love you" to him, only that she texted or emailed it. She admitted that she said it to him at least once in person and a few times on the phone. She had told me she never had an orgasm with him, and she didn't change her story but did say she got close one time. She swears the tatoo was NEVER mentioned. Still find it hard to believe, but I think I believer her. I asked her many many questions and most of the answers were the same, but a few did change. When she asked if I was all done with the questions she said "if you want me to take a lie detector test I will".

 

I have mixed emotions at the moment. Kind of feel like I did 3 months ago on dday. But I think I always knew the answers to some of these questions regardless of what her answers were. How do you ever know for sure if they are being honest?? You can't, you have to take that leap of faith. But how do you take that leap when you have so little trust and faith in them?

[meandmyself]

Update: I discussed the polygraph with her. At first she was "insulted" and said it hurt her feelings. She said she would do it though. Then she said go ahead and ask me anything you want and I promise I will tell you the truth, even if I had lied previoulsy over the last 3 months. Without giving all the details, she did admit to lying about a few things. She originally told me she gave him oral once, last night she said it was twice. She had told me that she never verbally said "i love you" to him, only that she texted or emailed it. She admitted that she said it to him at least once in person and a few times on the phone. She had told me she never had an orgasm with him, and she didn't change her story but did say she got close one time. She swears the tatoo was NEVER mentioned. Still find it hard to believe, but I think I believer her. I asked her many many questions and most of the answers were the same, but a few did change. When she asked if I was all done with the questions she said "if you want me to take a lie detector test I will".

 

I have mixed emotions at the moment. Kind of feel like I did 3 months ago on dday. But I think I always knew the answers to some of these questions regardless of what her answers were. How do you ever know for sure if they are being honest?? You can't, you have to take that leap of faith. But how do you take that leap when you have so little trust and faith in them?

 

Hello Ray, I am happy she has given you some more details... but it has been only after you threaten her with the polygraph... it is called trickle truth...

You can take what she has told you for valid and move on... but don't cheat yourself... you know she just gave you enough so you would let it go.

 

I think you should chose between move on and stop asking or keep asking and go to the polygraph but make no mistake, she hasn't tell you all the truth.

 

Your choice mate!

[Mr. Lucky]

Ray, you'll never know everything. I understand you wanting to know, but do not let the search consume you. That's my advice. In time, you'll discover the answers you need are inside of you. Only you have them.

Very well said. And, at least in my case, eventually very true...

Ray, just do what you feel to do, if you feel you need more information, you are entitled to ask! Do you want to go to the polygraph? Then go!

But when does it end? And I don't mean figuratively, I mean literally - when does it end? Are you going to put the polygraph guy on retainer? Move him into the guest room for easy access? Buy the iPolygraph app for your phone ???

 

Here's the simple truth if you're ever going to reconcile with and re-commit to a cheating spouse - at some point you realize that while the mental questions like Ray's tattoo thought will keep coming, the answers stop being important. If you can get there and forgive, you've made it. If you can't and won't forget, you haven't and should move on...

 

Mr. Lucky

[meandmyself]

Very well said. And, at least in my case, eventually very true...

 

But when does it end? And I don't mean figuratively, I mean literally - when does it end? Are you going to put the polygraph guy on retainer? Move him into the guest room for easy access? Buy the iPolygraph app for your phone ???

 

Here's the simple truth if you're ever going to reconcile with and re-commit to a cheating spouse - at some point you realize that while the mental questions like Ray's tattoo thought will keep coming, the answers stop being important. If you can get there and forgive, you've made it. If you can't and won't forget, you haven't and should move on...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Everyone has a different approach here... some people need to know and will keep asking till they feel they know enough truth to be comfortable to move on... some people prefer to forget and make like it would have never happened... who is right... both are because everyone has a different need.

Some people will not be able to let go and have always this questions in their head... for this people if they don't get the answers they need there will never be healing... Others don't want to know... they would not be able to forgive if they would know the details so they just make an exercise of self convincing about how the thing exactly happened (usually much soft than the truth) and are able to heal with that..

 

The only thing I am totally sure about is that Ray needs to do what he feels is right for him... It is clear he still love her and wants to forgive her... let him take his own steps to the healing

[Realist3]

Update: I discussed the polygraph with her. At first she was "insulted" and said it hurt her feelings. She said she would do it though. Then she said go ahead and ask me anything you want and I promise I will tell you the truth, even if I had lied previoulsy over the last 3 months. Without giving all the details, she did admit to lying about a few things. She originally told me she gave him oral once, last night she said it was twice. She had told me that she never verbally said "i love you" to him, only that she texted or emailed it. She admitted that she said it to him at least once in person and a few times on the phone. She had told me she never had an orgasm with him, and she didn't change her story but did say she got close one time. She swears the tatoo was NEVER mentioned. Still find it hard to believe, but I think I believer her. I asked her many many questions and most of the answers were the same, but a few did change. When she asked if I was all done with the questions she said "if you want me to take a lie detector test I will".

 

I have mixed emotions at the moment. Kind of feel like I did 3 months ago on dday. But I think I always knew the answers to some of these questions regardless of what her answers were. How do you ever know for sure if they are being honest?? You can't, you have to take that leap of faith. But how do you take that leap when you have so little trust and faith in them?

 

What positive are you doing to yourself with all of this focus on details? You have to ask yourself that question and answer it honestly.

 

Do you want to keep being hit over the head with a sledgehammer? What good does that do you, or your relationship moving forward?