OM put up hutch in my house. It's a painful trigger. ??

[Ninja'sHusband]

Like I said the victim card is heavily played here. No matter what the WS is at fault and that is not necessarily the case. Yes, they made a bad decision in handling a problem, but it does not in and of itself mean they are the responible party for the problem. Surely you can understand that.

 

 

You know as a kid one of the most important lessons I had to learn was that no matter WHAT my sister did, if I hit her...I was at fault. I don't really think this is any different. People are responsible for their own actions. I don't care what the BS did that was so horrible, if what they did was that bad, DIVORCE THEM. Maybe the WS was a victim too, but it doesn't discount that now the BS is a massive bleeding victim from cheating. There's not a lot that's worse...only criminal type activities come to mind as being candidates for comparison and even then, it doesn't excuse anything.

[eleanorrigby]

Sleeping with someone is not the end all. Some of you do not get that. EA's are just as damaging in a real sense because they have given their brain/heart to someone else.

 

Really???? Wow. That's new and exotic info for most of us here on the infidelity board I'm sure!

[Realist3]

Please speak for yourself. Maybe you have the experience that someone sleeping with you is not the end all for them.

 

When a woman is truly satisfied with a man, having sex with him is generally considered to be quite a significant emotional as well as physical act. That is my experience and the experience of many other men and women.

 

If you regard sex and the people you have it with as not all very much significant, then it won't be, as appears you have found now.

 

You are putting words in my mouth. Sex is the icing on the cake for those involved in an emotionally satisfying relationship. There is no doubt about that.

 

As I'm sure you know some people have sex just for the heck of it.

 

What I am saying is that if her mind is with him that is far more important than romping in the hay.

[Realist3]

You know as a kid one of the most important lessons I had to learn was that no matter WHAT my sister did' date=' if I hit her...I was at fault. I don't really think this is any different. People are responsible for their own actions. I don't care what the BS did that was so horrible, if what they did was that bad, DIVORCE THEM. Maybe the WS was a victim too, but it doesn't discount that now the BS is a massive bleeding victim from cheating. There's not a lot that's worse...only criminal type activities come to mind as being candidates for comparison and even then, it doesn't excuse anything.[/quote']

 

 

Again, this is an overly simplistic view. You don't like something so you divorce???? That makes no sense.

[Realist3]

Really???? Wow. That's new and exotic info for most of us here on the infidelity board I'm sure!

 

Would you rather find out your spouse had casual sex with someone, ot that they truly loved someone else?

[Realist3]

Your spouse can fake enjoying sex with you, but they can't fake having their heart and mind into a relstionship.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Again, this is an overly simplistic view. You don't like something so you divorce???? That makes no sense.

 

Don't change what I said and then shoot it down. I said "if what they did was that bad"

 

You were implying that some things were so bad that cheating is justified. If something is THAT bad that it starts to make you think causing the greatest pain in someone's life and sabotaging your marriage is ok, then yeah maybe you should divorce.

 

Now let's take your new situation, if it's just something the potential WS "doesn't like". Then obviously you bring it up and talk about it. The point is cheating and lying is NEVER justified. It's the WS fault, they are to blame. Black and White. Try and squirm out of it... IT. IS. WRONG.

 

It's amazing to me how you could completely miss the point of that post. No...it's just that you are looking for anything to disagree with.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[whichwayisup]

Again, this is an overly simplistic view. You don't like something so you divorce???? That makes no sense.

 

I'm thinking once all measures of trying to fix things tried, and then it's divorce time.

 

yet, with that said ... So you *general you* don't like something, then having an affair is the answer?? That makes no sense.

[PratyekaYana]

Infidelity is simply unjustifiable. There are no appeals to circumstance, no mitigating factors, that one can invoke to twist the truth.

 

An example: Jane and John have been married for nearly a decade. Recent downturns in the economy have necessitated that John take a second job to help ends meet. As a result, he spends less and less time with Jane.

 

Perpetually lonely, Jane grows resentful of her husband and eventually allows herself to have an affair with Bob.

 

Is John partially responsible for the issues in his marriage, the distance between he and his wife and the failure to meet her emotional needs? Absolutely. Does that responsibility carry over to Jane's decision to have an affair? Absolutely not. Jane had two ethically sound options that she could have taken to solve her marital woes. She could have addressed her discontent with John and given him the option to become the husband she once knew...or failing that she could have left.

 

Maybe Jane was too afraid to take her complaints to John. Maybe she feared leaving and giving up the life that she helped to create at his side. Her reasons for not taking the more sensible route are irrelevant. What matters is that she cheated, and that decision is entirely hers to own.

[CantgetoveritNY]

Would you rather find out your spouse had casual sex with someone, ot that they truly loved someone else?

 

Are you serious? As a guy? You must have read the thread about the feelings of a BH. If my WW had just had an EA and not a PA but come back to me for reconciliation, in a month or two I'd be over it. As it is b/c of the PA, even if we can reconcile I will never be free of the pain and mental movies. I will never look at her again the same. I'm sure I'd feel the same about a ONS.

[Ninja'sHusband]

You are putting words in my mouth. Sex is the icing on the cake for those involved in an emotionally satisfying relationship. There is no doubt about that.

 

As I'm sure you know some people have sex just for the heck of it.

 

What I am saying is that if her mind is with him that is far more important than romping in the hay.

 

Realist, noone is arguing with you on this. We're only laughing that you think people don't realize it. The fact is that both types of As hurt, and the ones that involve deep emotions are the worst kind. But I should add the PA is what brings on risk of illegitimate children and STDs.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[road]

Sleeping with someone is not the end all. Some of you do not get that. EA's are just as damaging in a real sense because they have given their brain/heart to someone else.

 

 

EA's are just as damaging as a PA.

 

 

 

Like I said the victim card is heavily played here. No matter what the WS is at fault and that is not necessarily the case. Yes, they made a bad decision in handling a problem, but it does not in and of itself mean they are the responible party for the problem. Surely you can understand that.

 

 

It is only, and only the WS fault. No one put a gun to the WS's head and force the WS to copulate with their AP.

 

And, the WS can not claim the affair was an accident. The WS tripped and fell onto/into their AP.

 

Grow up and stop trying to bait people here.

 

This forum is not here for sport or to amuse.

[frozensprouts]

Realist3 ( hope I have your user name right, if not, I apologize)

 

think of it this way...

 

you you think it's okay for a man or woman to abuse their spouse? what if they feel "pushed" to do it? is it okay then?

 

to many people, cheating and lying to your spouse about it is a form of spousal abuse. it's every bit as hurtful. what on earth could a betrayed spouse ever have done that would make that kind of abuse okay? what could they have done to have unknowingly invited that kind of pain, heartache and "crazy making" into their lives, as well as risks to their health?

 

( before you respond, please consider the following)

> I sya the above based on my experience as a betrayed spouse...if you haven't been in that position yourself, then it's most likely very difficult to understand how bad it feels)

> I also know what it's like to be physically, verbally and emotionally abused in a ( different) romantic relationship...the cheating hurt much worse...

 

if you still hold that it is somehow the betrayed spouses fault, then what about the kids? surely they did nothing to have that kind of uproar inserted into their lives, yet there it is...at least with a divorce, there's a much better chance the spouses will part on amicable terms than if there was cheating involved...wouldn't that be better for the kids?

[2sunny]

Your spouse can fake enjoying sex with you, but they can't fake having their heart and mind into a relstionship.

 

Don't be ridiculous - people fake the "love" in their marriage all the time.arranged marriages - people pretend all the time!

 

Look around you!

 

And for some the cheater having sex with someone else IS the end all! Just ask my exH how his cheating ended everything good that he had in his life! POOF! All gone! 23 years of a happy life just disappeared!

 

Even 8 years later he still wants back - nope - THAT life ended the minute he cheated!

 

There are CONSEQUENCES for bad behavior. Does the cheating END some things - you bet it does!

[Realist3]

Realist3 ( hope I have your user name right, if not, I apologize)

 

think of it this way...

 

you you think it's okay for a man or woman to abuse their spouse? what if they feel "pushed" to do it? is it okay then?

 

to many people, cheating and lying to your spouse about it is a form of spousal abuse. it's every bit as hurtful. what on earth could a betrayed spouse ever have done that would make that kind of abuse okay? what could they have done to have unknowingly invited that kind of pain, heartache and "crazy making" into their lives, as well as risks to their health?

 

( before you respond, please consider the following)

> I sya the above based on my experience as a betrayed spouse...if you haven't been in that position yourself, then it's most likely very difficult to understand how bad it feels)

> I also know what it's like to be physically, verbally and emotionally abused in a ( different) romantic relationship...the cheating hurt much worse...

 

I appreciate your well thought out response.

 

Of course I do not condone abuse.

 

But I'm not going to agree with you that cheating is a form of abuse. Abuse is a willful attempt to cause harm to another person. Affairs are kept secret for a few reasons, and one of them is not to hurt the BS. So, I don't think the intent is ever to harm the BS. If I physically assault you or emtionally berate you, those are done with the intent to cause harm, and that is abuse.

 

That is not to say that an A may not in the end cause as much or more hurt/harm than real abuse; but just because something causes harm does not qualify as abuse.

 

if you still hold that it is somehow the betrayed spouses fault, then what about the kids? surely they did nothing to have that kind of uproar inserted into their lives, yet there it is...at least with a divorce, there's a much better chance the spouses will part on amicable terms than if there was cheating involved...wouldn't that be better for the kids?

 

I never said that an A is always the BS's fault. What I did say is that sometimes the BS's actions can be a contributor to the decision for the WS to have an affair.

 

In regards to the kids, yes that is always a concern, and another reason why AP's jump through 1000's of hoops to keep their R secret.

 

In terms of a divorce it is up to the adults to determine how their children will deal with the divorce. If one spouse is so bitter about it that they make their kids miserable in the process, that is on them.

[frozensprouts]

I appreciate your well thought out response.

 

Of course I do not condone abuse.

 

But I'm not going to agree with you that cheating is a form of abuse. Abuse is a willful attempt to cause harm to another person. Affairs are kept secret for a few reasons, and one of them is not to hurt the BS.

 

sorry, but that is very circular reasoning...if one spouse doesn't want to hurt the other, then don't cheat...very simple solution...

 

So, I don't think the intent is ever to harm the BS. If I physically assault you or emtionally berate you, those are done with the intent to cause harm, and that is abuse.

 

sorry, but that really does seem like you're just using semantics in this argument. Whether or not harm intended is irrelevant...the damage is the same. A cheating spouse knows that what they are doing will hurt their spouse ( unless it's an open marriage where both spouses know for sure upfront what is going on, then it really isn't cheating), so, when you look at it that way, there actually is 'intent' there...

 

That is not to say that an A may not in the end cause as much or more hurt/harm than real abuse; but just because something causes harm does not qualify as abuse.

 

again, that semantics. Ask the person who was cheated on, and see what they have to say...perception is nine tenths of reality...

 

 

 

I never said that an A is always the BS's fault. What I did say is that sometimes the BS's actions can be a contributor to the decision for the WS to have an affair.

 

I actually agree with you to an extent...however...this still doesn;t make the cheaters choice any more acceptable. If we follow your logic, then pretty much anything a a betrayed spouse could do to the wayward spouse would be okay...

 

In regards to the kids, yes that is always a concern, and another reason why AP's jump through 1000's of hoops to keep their R secret.

 

sorry, but from my point of view, the logic here is flawed. They wayward spouse is doing 'everything' to keep the children from being harmed? No, they are doing the one thing that they know will cause harm a high percentgae of the time ( just ask any adult who' parent had an affair and the situation blew up)

 

In terms of a divorce it is up to the adults to determine how their children will deal with the divorce. If one spouse is so bitter about it that they make their kids miserable in the process, that is on them.

 

kids aren't idiots. Unless they are too young to understand, they pretty quickly form an opinion of what's gone on, and that can really wreak havoc in their lives. A child doesn't care if "Daddy isn't sexually satisfied with mommy, so he went out and got that elsewhere"...a kid only cares that "daddy hurt mommy"...trust me, that is horrible for a child, and it's very difficult for a parent totally hide everything from their child...kids find stuff out, whether you want them to or not

 

 

please find responses in bold

[Realist3]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

What I stated is not semantics, but relates to the definition of the actual word you used. Cheating does not fall under the defintiion of abuse. You might be able to argue that serial cheating could come close to the defintion, but it is still kind of iffy.

 

I will give you an unrelated example so you can discern the difference.

 

Let's pretend I go to a bar one night and have too much to drink. On my way home I crash into someone and kill them. I'm sentenced to jail for 10 years. I have done a great deal of harm to my family. I also knew that driving drunk could possibly cause great harm to others and my family. Does that constitute abuse? No.

 

Intent is the crux of abuse. There is no getting around that and it is not semantics. You can label cheating as all sorts of things, but abuse it not one of them.

[Realist3]

I actually agree with you to an extent...however...this still doesn;t make the cheaters choice any more acceptable. If we follow your logic, then pretty much anything a a betrayed spouse could do to the wayward spouse would be okay...

 

I never claimed the cheater's choice was acceptable. We are talking about causation. What causes someone to act in a certain way does not necessarily have anything to do with what is "acceptable".

 

A BS has every right to act or react any way they so choose. What the BS must consider is whether that action promotes their further goals for the relationship. It may, or it may not.

[Realist3]

sorry, but from my point of view, the logic here is flawed. They wayward spouse is doing 'everything' to keep the children from being harmed? No, they are doing the one thing that they know will cause harm a high percentgae of the time ( just ask any adult who' parent had an affair and the situation blew up)

 

Where did I say they were doing "everything" to keep the children from being harmed? I didn't.

 

I said that they make an attempt to keep them from harm. Of course a discovered A may very well harm the children. But that does not mean there is an intent to hurt the children by having an A.

[Realist3]

If they didn't give a rat's arse they wouldn't make the attempt to keep it secret.

[Miky]

My WS worked at a kitchen remodelling business. The had a big hutch that was on display there. My WS asked if she could have it and they have it to her this summer. The man she cheated with worked there and he brought it here and set it up. I was not here. This happened before the physical cheating began. Everytime I see it it is a trigger. It reminds me of him. I asked her 2 months ago to get rid of it. She didn't say no, but was reluctant to do so. It's not been discussed since. I called our marriage Counselor, who is a woman and seems to take my WS side more often than not. She really seems to sympathise with her. Anyways I asked the Counselor her opinion and suprise suprise she said I should drop it and learn to deal with it. It wasnt a gift from him, so I should just let it go. Am I totally off base in asking to get rid of this? I called the male Counselor I am seeing individually to ask his opinion but haven't heard back yet. Just wanted some of your opinions.

 

 

Man, Burn that darn thing and Fire this MC what is this

[Ninja'sHusband]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

What I stated is not semantics, but relates to the definition of the actual word you used. Cheating does not fall under the defintiion of abuse. You might be able to argue that serial cheating could come close to the defintion, but it is still kind of iffy.

 

I will give you an unrelated example so you can discern the difference.

 

Let's pretend I go to a bar one night and have too much to drink. On my way home I crash into someone and kill them. I'm sentenced to jail for 10 years. I have done a great deal of harm to my family. I also knew that driving drunk could possibly cause great harm to others and my family. Does that constitute abuse? No.

 

Intent is the crux of abuse. There is no getting around that and it is not semantics. You can label cheating as all sorts of things, but abuse it not one of them.

 

Infidelity is deliberate abuse, and one of the worst kinds. People don't "accidentally" have sex. Even if was an accident(impossibly), where does it say "abuse" has anything to do with intent?

Abuse | Define Abuse at Dictionary.com

 

I'd quote books and articles that have said this as well, but I have a feeling they'd just be discounted...

 

 

Hahahaha, it says masturbation is self abuse...well I'll be! hahahaa sorry, off topic...

[BetrayedH]

I never claimed the cheater's choice was acceptable. We are talking about causation. What causes someone to act in a certain way does not necessarily have anything to do with what is "acceptable".

 

A BS has every right to act or react any way they so choose. What the BS must consider is whether that action promotes their further goals for the relationship. It may, or it may not.

 

The cause of the cheating was the cheater's decision to cheat.

[Realist3]

The cause of the cheating was the cheater's decision to cheat.

 

The decision to cheat for sure. The cause for that decision, not so much.

[BetrayedH]

Where did I say they were doing "everything" to keep the children from being harmed? I didn't.

 

I said that they make an attempt to keep them from harm. Of course a discovered A may very well harm the children. But that does not mean there is an intent to hurt the children by having an A.

 

They took a calculated risk with their children's well-being as the thing at risk. That isn't protecting the children. That's placing your own needs above those of your children.

 

Go ahead and keep spinning your rationalizations. They all fall short of the simple truth.