Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[Furious]

 

No, a BS does not directly cause the affair. Nor does the BS make the WS choose to cheat. But...the BS does have control over making the marriage more desirable than an affair..

 

The WS also has control over making the marriage more desirable than an affair. I can guarantee you many a betrayed spouse has been hit on by the opposite sex, and could have become a WS in a drop of a hat.

[JamesM]

The WS also has control over making the marriage more desirable than an affair. I can guarantee you many a betrayed spouse has been hit on by the opposite sex, and could have become a WS in a drop of a hat.

 

Very true. And many bad marriages survive to become good marriages without any affairs happening.

 

It IS all about a bad choice that was made. many WS regret the decision and move on to never cheat again...even if the marriage fails.

[BetrayedH]

BUT... The BS does NOT have control over making the M more desirable than an A AND M.

 

Well said.

[96nole]

 

No, a BS does not directly cause the affair. Nor does the BS make the WS choose to cheat. But...the BS does have control over making the marriage more desirable than an affair.

 

Ahh, the old, "it's the BS's fault". But how can a BS know to make the marriage more "desirable" if they don't know anything is wrong?

 

It reminds me of my ex. When I asked her why she didn't tell me anything was wrong, her answer, "why do I have to start the conversation?" My answer of "because you were the one that felt that way" fell on dumb deaf ears.

[Realist3]

Ahh, the old, "it's the BS's fault". But how can a BS know to make the marriage more "desirable" if they don't know anything is wrong?

 

It reminds me of my ex. When I asked her why she didn't tell me anything was wrong, her answer, "why do I have to start the conversation?" My answer of "because you were the one that felt that way" fell on dumb deaf ears.

 

Maybe... maybe because she felt that it was pointless, and that if you couldn't sense it that was telling in and of itself?

 

Some people are not comfortable coming up to their SO and telling them what they detest about them, or what is driving them away. You may not agree with that type of handling of a situation but it certainly is a fact in many R's and M's.

[BetrayedH]

96Nole is so stupid he doesn't even know how to read minds. What an idiot! You so deserved to be cheated on for that alone. Talking to you about it might have made her uncomfortable; it's now clear how insensitive you were and why she cheated.

[Furious]

Ahh, the old, "it's the BS's fault". But how can a BS know to make the marriage more "desirable" if they don't know anything is wrong?

 

It reminds me of my ex. When I asked her why she didn't tell me anything was wrong, her answer, "why do I have to start the conversation?" My answer of "because you were the one that felt that way" fell on dumb deaf ears.

 

 

Hey 96

 

Accept the fact your wife preferred an unemployed broke man who lived with Mommy as the man of her dreams. How can you have compared to such a prize, while you were employed and cared for her when she was in and out of hospitals.

 

It's astounding that she had the nerve to blame you as the reason she cheated.

[Realist3]

96Nole is so stupid he doesn't even know how to read minds. What an idiot! You so deserved to be cheated on for that alone. Talking to you about it might have made her uncomfortable; it's now clear how insensitive you were and why she cheated.

 

You don't have to read minds. You should be able to read your spouse and their reactions and concerns. It doesn't always have to be verbal cues.

 

Who said it was that alone? I think you are taking a very myopic view.

[carhill]

Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

 

Each choice we make presents infinite potential results and consequences.

 

Using a fictional example I forwarded in another thread, if I strike my wife during an argument, an infinite number of potential results and consequences can obtain. Did I 'cause' them by striking her? In the example I used, I used the potential result of her seeking solace for her pain in the arms of another man. Did I 'cause' that by striking her. Had I not struck her, would she have still sought similar/congruent solace?

 

Hard to know. Life is like that.

 

I use such examples as stated physical and/or emotional abuse were often 'causes' for MW's to seek out 'solace' with myself as an OM. Was it 'real'? Unknown. More of the grey of life. Was seeking such solace their sole remedy/course of action/potential choice? Absolutely not. They made specific choices and those choices 'caused' results and have consequences and so on and so forth, all the way down the line, to the end of life and the end of time.

 

Here's another question: Can a WS cause a BS to make choices which cause the WS to react to those choices by cheating? IOW, can the WS create an environment to suit their end game simply by the choices they make? Then, reverse the roles.

 

Human relationships and interactions are complex.

[Realist3]

And there is also the real possibility that the concerns were brought up and ignored. In my own experience that has gone both ways.

[BetrayedH]

You don't have to read minds. You should be able to read your spouse and their reactions and concerns. It doesn't always have to be verbal cues.

 

Sure sounds like mind reading to me.

 

Since we're talking about what one "should" do, I would submit that the WS should keep their vows. Very myopic, I know.

[Realist3]

Sure sounds like mind reading to me.

 

Since we're talking about what one "should" do, I would submit that the WS should keep their vows. Very myopic, I know.

 

Whether they should is not the point.

[BetrayedH]

And there is also the real possibility that the concerns were brought up and ignored. In my own experience that has gone both ways.

 

There is also the real possibility that the WS failed to bring up concerns (by their own admission). You simply cannot discount the number of cases where the fact of the matter is that the BS was giving more and receiving less and yet they are the ones that were betrayed by a WS for whom nothing and no one would ever have been enough.

[GG2W]

I have a male friend who was happily in love with his wife and family of kids.

 

After the last kid, she totally shut off the sex. He tried for years to get her to change her mind, she only half heartedly attended some counciling, just to save face, but nothing would change her stand.

 

He is still young and was facing a long life without sex. She did not work, and after consulting with an attorney, divorce was not an option as he would be stuck turning over most of his pay check for her, the house, and child support. And he would not be able to watch his kids grow up, as he would be lucky to see them on the weekends.

 

After much agonizing, he began to seek relief outside his marriage.

[BetrayedH]

Whether they should is not the point.

 

You said the BS should read the non-verbal cues. I said the WS should not cheat. I think the conversation is exactly about what should be done. The WS should fix the marriage or leave and if they fail to do that, they can blame no one but themselves.

[BetrayedH]

I have a male friend who was happily in love with his wife and family of kids.

 

After the last kid, she totally shut off the sex. He tried for years to get her to change her mind, she only half heartedly attended some counciling, just to save face, but nothing would change her stand.

 

He is still young and was facing a long life without sex. She did not work, and after consulting with an attorney, divorce was not an option as he would be stuck turning over most of his pay check for her, the house, and child support. And he would not be able to watch his kids grow up, as he would be lucky to see them on the weekends.

 

After much agonizing, he began to seek relief outside his marriage.

 

I sympathize with your friend's marital struggles. I hope he was honest with his wife.

 

Unfortunate that divorce was not a reasonable option. That was not my experience. Did it suck? Sure. Was it as fair of a division of assets, liabilities and child custody as possible? Yep. Maybe I was lucky. I find it very sad that some cannot get a fair shake but it seems to be improving; most states seem to know how to make a divorce happen. Some definitely don't and I've seen some people get screwed.

[carhill]

After the last kid, she totally shut off the sex. He tried for years to get her to change her mind, she only half heartedly attended some counciling, just to save face, but nothing would change her stand.

 

This is classic; however, IMO it becomes more interesting when one reverses the gender roles to something converse to classic. I think it would be interesting to work out the psychology of those dynamics relevant to gender.

 

Further, and this ties in to my 'end game' question prior, it is possible for the potential BS in this situation to 'cause' the timeline of potential results to begin with an overt choice to withhold sex/become asexual within the M? If is is, what is that person's responsibility in the causality scheme? Did it truly begin with their choice or was that choice an effect of another cause within the M resulting from a choice their spouse made? On and on.

 

Lastly, relevant to this example and 'vows', does becoming asexual in a marriage constitute a violation of the marital vows? Did it 'cause' a new door to become opened by the act of violation, if extant? What potentials obtain? What consequences?

[Nyla]

Life is about choices. The WS chooses to cheat; nobody is to blame for the WS spouse's selfish and underhanded choice but the cheater.

 

I will say that the BS can contribute to the WS infidelity, but the BS is still not at fault. There is always a better choice than being unfaithful in a marriage.

[96nole]

Maybe... maybe because she felt that it was pointless, and that if you couldn't sense it that was telling in and of itself?

 

Some people are not comfortable coming up to their SO and telling them what they detest about them, or what is driving them away. You may not agree with that type of handling of a situation but it certainly is a fact in many R's and M's.

 

And here he is everyone!!!

The Champion of the cheaters

The laymen to the liers

He brings the "Dis" to the "honorable"

 

IIIIIIIt'sssssss Realist3!!!!

 

Look, I get it, you are going to defend every WS because you are one. Tell us, what do you detest about your wife?

 

Back to my original point that you are commenting on, how can anything be fixed if you don't know about it? Sorry but I failed Mind Reading 101. The only thing she was complaining about was her job. She said nothing about me or us. And I am not going to begin to entertain the idea that I should just sense a much bigger problem. It's called open your f*cking mouth and say something.

 

After I threw her out, one of the things she complained about was that we didn't have "conversations". That we don't stay up and talk all night long like we did 15 years ago when we first started dating. That's when I mentioned it would have been a good conversation to have and she replied with the "why do I have to start them".

 

She took the cowards way out. One I'm sure you are familiar with. And then she tried to throw the blame at me. I think that chapter one of the cheaters handbook.

[BetrayedH]

This is classic; however, IMO it becomes more interesting when one reverses the gender roles to something converse to classic. I think it would be interesting to work out the psychology of those dynamics relevant to gender.

 

Further, and this ties in to my 'end game' question prior, it is possible for the potential BS in this situation to 'cause' the timeline of potential results to begin with an overt choice to withhold sex/become asexual within the M? If is is, what is that person's responsibility in the causality scheme? Did it truly begin with their choice or was that choice an effect of another cause within the M resulting from a choice their spouse made? On and on.

 

Lastly, relevant to this example and 'vows', does becoming asexual in a marriage constitute a violation of the marital vows? Did it 'cause' a new door to become opened by the act of violation, if extant? What potentials obtain? What consequences?

 

I honestly believe that every marriage has marital problems. ALL of them eventually do. There are a myriad of scenarios that can play out. My marriage was pretty much non-sexual for about 7 years. We csn go back and forth about who is to blame for that. I tried everything I could think of to improve this facet of our lives, including restoring an "emotional connection" for months at a time before suggesting sex. It didn't matter what I tried; it remained a begrudging once a month scenario and sometimes much longer. Would it have been my wife's fsult if I had cheated? No, and I didn't cheat. My obligation was to fix the marriage or leave it. I understood our agreement.

 

Are there other dealbreakers in a marriage besides adultery? Absolutely. I certainly lean towards the "better or worse, til death" thing since I valued that kind of commitment but I believe there are plenty of valid reasons to divorce - sexless marriage, abuse, failed M after sincere efforts at counseling, etc. but there are no valid reasons for cheating. The WS causes that particular decision on their own.

[carhill]

There are no valid reasons for being asexual

 

There are no valid reasons for abandoning a spouse

 

There are no valid reasons for being abusive/violent

 

 

On and on.

 

Validity is a completely separate and interesting subject to discuss; fidelity as well, as a basis for human interactions. Are we faithful to those whom put their trust in us? Think about that. Look beyond one's spouse to any agreement we make in life as humans. What's our track record? What has our choices in life 'caused'? Is our life path relevant to the causality of our prosecution of relationships? How?

 

Accepting that a WS makes a fully independent and proactive choice to be unfaithful, does that exist in a vacuum? Would they be unfaithful forever, from birth to death. Were they borne that way? Prosecuted all their life relationships with deception? If not, why only some? Why only one? If there was no one else relevant to 'cause', why is their choice selective and not global?

 

I find the subject fascinating mainly because of my work in MC to better understand manipulation, a word I routinely brought up within our therapeutic work. I had to abandon linear thinking to better understand how humans manipulate each other, whether overt or covert; whether purposefully or incidentally. The end result was that there are no easy answers regarding the process. Yes, one should have boundaries and I think that's what's being alluded to in this thread; essentially, no matter what the 'cause', no matter how abusive/violent/unhealthy the relationship, one 'should' always maintain the boundary of avoiding infidelity, whether overt or covert. Get out. That assertion is a social and moral judgement of value, essentially raising infidelity above all other 'causes', to reign supreme as the boundary without peer.

 

Hope it works out.

[JamesM]

Ahh, the old, "it's the BS's fault". But how can a BS know to make the marriage more "desirable" if they don't know anything is wrong?

 

It reminds me of my ex. When I asked her why she didn't tell me anything was wrong, her answer, "why do I have to start the conversation?" My answer of "because you were the one that felt that way" fell on dumb deaf ears.

 

 

No, once again, my post is being construed as "the BS is the ONLY one to blame. I never said that nor will. However, the reverse cannot be true either. If it is, then only one person can be responsible for a happy marriage. We should know that this isn't true.

 

Knowing what is wrong is not enough. Doing something about it is most important. It is amazing how often the BS will say that he or she never knew there was a problem, and yet the WS says he or she said the problems. Whom do we believe? I think both are believable. The problems may have been communicated to the person, but not enough or in the right language. And the one who was told chose to ignore them thinking that in time they would be solved as no one who break the trust...despite he or she essentially not honoring his or her own vows by making the marriage right.

 

If a marriage takes two to work, then it takes to to break.

 

Sure sounds like mind reading to me.

 

Since we're talking about what one "should" do, I would submit that the WS should keep their vows. Very myopic, I know.

 

Agreed. The question is...am I responsible for my marriage if it breaks or only if it is a happy one?

 

 

After I threw her out, one of the things she complained about was that we didn't have "conversations". That we don't stay up and talk all night long like we did 15 years ago when we first started dating. That's when I mentioned it would have been a good conversation to have and she replied with the "why do I have to start them".

 

She took the cowards way out. One I'm sure you are familiar with. And then she tried to throw the blame at me. I think that chapter one of the cheaters handbook.

 

With all due respect and understanding that you are still dealing with the pain and anger, she may have already said that we should talk more, but she chose the wrong times. She may have tried to start a "how is your day" conversation, but you may not have been interested in talking. I know...I have been there. I have chosen my movie or book or computer when I should have listened to her.

 

A cheater is definitely to blame for his or her decision to break the marriage vow, but the one who was betrayed needs to look within him or herself and ask why. This does not mean that the BS accepts all of the blame, but he or she cannot say that this had nothing to do with me or accept NO blame.

 

By taking the route of saying that "I am not to blame for any part of the WS's decision to choose an affair," the BS says that "I had not control over my marriage or life while with that person. He or she was the one who either made the marriage happy or sad."

 

I for one would like to think I have control over the outcome of my marriage.

[96nole]

Ah, yes. Reading the mind of a cheater. SO easy! They lay bare their soul so how COULD you have missed the clues 96? They tell you EVERYTHING, after all.

 

And they are so honest about everything also.

[BetrayedH]

@ James,

 

I respect your continuous attempts to be a well-balanced poster. in many parts of your posts, I fully agree. I fully own my share of responsibility for marital problems and the scenarios that you posed are certainly within the norm (should have talked to my wife more, etc). I certainly had an influence over the marital happiness and/or discord. But I had no vote in her decision to cheat and so I will accept no responsibility for her choice to do so. Marital problems don't cause cheating. What leads to cheating is a decision to book a hotel room, drive there, check-in, remove your blouse, and do it six ways from Sunday. These are all conscious choices with plenty of stop signs along the way and many make the same choices repeatedly for years when more ethical and healthy choices are right in front of them. I won't own my wife's bull**** decisions and I don't think other BSs should do so either. The WSs can own that crap.

[BetrayedH]

You are going under the mistaken asssumption, however, that it ALWAYS takes an unhappy marriage for some people to cheat.

 

Plenty of WS got exactly what they asked for and more out of their BS and it was never going to be enough. Many posters here can attest to the fact that their WS was certainly getting the better end of the bargain. Sometimes (many times) the WS was just a plain ole sucky ass person at the time. I am always amazed at how many BW come on here and talk about how they supported their H through all kinds of hospitalizations and surgeries, took care of everything at home, worked two jobs, had sex whenever their husband asked and they still got crapped on. Yet some people will continue to insist that the BS must share some responsibility for the affair. Nonsense.