Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[96nole]

No, once again, my post is being construed as "the BS is the ONLY one to blame. I never said that nor will. However, the reverse cannot be true either. If it is, then only one person can be responsible for a happy marriage. We should know that this isn't true.

 

Knowing what is wrong is not enough. Doing something about it is most important. It is amazing how often the BS will say that he or she never knew there was a problem, and yet the WS says he or she said the problems. Whom do we believe? I think both are believable. The problems may have been communicated to the person, but not enough or in the right language. And the one who was told chose to ignore them thinking that in time they would be solved as no one who break the trust...despite he or she essentially not honoring his or her own vows by making the marriage right.

 

If a marriage takes two to work, then it takes to to break.

 

 

 

Agreed. The question is...am I responsible for my marriage if it breaks or only if it is a happy one?

 

 

 

With all due respect and understanding that you are still dealing with the pain and anger, she may have already said that we should talk more, but she chose the wrong times. She may have tried to start a "how is your day" conversation, but you may not have been interested in talking. I know...I have been there. I have chosen my movie or book or computer when I should have listened to her.

 

A cheater is definitely to blame for his or her decision to break the marriage vow, but the one who was betrayed needs to look within him or herself and ask why. This does not mean that the BS accepts all of the blame, but he or she cannot say that this had nothing to do with me or accept NO blame.

 

By taking the route of saying that "I am not to blame for any part of the WS's decision to choose an affair," the BS says that "I had not control over my marriage or life while with that person. He or she was the one who either made the marriage happy or sad."

 

I for one would like to think I have control over the outcome of my marriage.

 

All marriages have some problems. That is a given. But again, if the BS doesn't know, nothing can be fixed.

 

Let me give you the example of when the ex and I were in MC. She said there were things about me she didn't like. I and the MC asked for examples. The only example she was able to give at that moment was about the dishwasher. After she loaded it, there may have been a few dished still in the sink. I would then move things around in the dishwasher to make room for the remaining dishes. She said she didn't like it because it made her feel inferior. I told her that I didn't mean to make her feel that way and that I wouldn't do it again. She was surprised at how easy that was. Oh, and I never did move the dishes after she loaded it again.

 

She also tried to use a lame excuse as to why she didn't communicate. She said that while she was growing up, her parents would never argue or "discuss" things in front of her. They would go into the bedroom and close the door. So as a result she said she didn't know how to communicate because she didn't learn from her parents. Obviously that's just more blame shifting.

 

By taking the route of saying that "I am not to blame for any part of the WS's decision to choose an affair," the BS says that "I had not control over my marriage or life while with that person. He or she was the one who either made the marriage happy or sad."

Ultimately, you have no control over someone's actions regardless if you have any blame or not.

 

If a marriage takes two to work, then it takes to to break.

I disagree. It does take two to make a marriage work. But only one can destroy a marriage.

[frozensprouts]

Realist3,

 

I think i can understand the idea that if a person loves someone enough,t hey should be able to somehow tell when something is wrong...the thing is that even if one spouse has a feeling something is wrong, what are they to do if their spouse won't tell them even when asked, what the problem is?

 

My husband was like that...we'd been through a rough time with our kids ( found out that two of them have life long health issues severe enough that at least our youngest, and maybe our oldest will never be able to live on their own, our middle kid had been diagnosed wot a rare condition with her optic nerve that may have been a precursor to MS, my husband was being deployed for at least six months and doing work ups where he'd be away a lot before that, he been a pall bearer for a friend who'd been killed by an IED while deployed, he was getting grief form his parents, money was tight, etc. )...so i knew he was troubled, but whenever I'd ask him if something was wrong or he wantd to talk, he'd say no, that everything was fine, that since I kept asking him what was wrong that I must have a problem, etc.

 

What else could I have done? I tried being kind and understanding, going out of my way to do "little things' for him to help him with his stress levels, etc., when he started spending more and more time online chatting with a "friend from work who understood how he was feeling" I tried to give him the space to do so without making him feel guilty because it was taking time away from me and our kids ( turned out the "friend' from work was the woman he was having an affair with)...I also tried doing lots of other things to get him to open up ( even asked his sister to talk to him and try and find out what was wrong...and i hate to admit it ,but I even asked his 'friend" - who stupid as I may have been, I believed him when he told me she was "just a friend:laugh:- to see if she could help me figure out what was going on....

 

what else could I have done? He didn't want to tell me ( didn't want to add to my "burdens' that i already had), and since I didn't have any sodium pentothal or a lie detector, how was I to know he was telling the truth when he told me " I'm just stuff at work"....?

[Realist3]

And here he is everyone!!!

The Champion of the cheaters

The laymen to the liers

He brings the "Dis" to the "honorable"

 

IIIIIIIt'sssssss Realist3!!!!

 

Look, I get it, you are going to defend every WS because you are one. Tell us, what do you detest about your wife?

 

Back to my original point that you are commenting on, how can anything be fixed if you don't know about it? Sorry but I failed Mind Reading 101. The only thing she was complaining about was her job. She said nothing about me or us. And I am not going to begin to entertain the idea that I should just sense a much bigger problem. It's called open your f*cking mouth and say something.

 

 

 

She took the cowards way out. One I'm sure you are familiar with. And then she tried to throw the blame at me. I think that chapter one of the cheaters handbook.

 

You are mistaken. Just because I show that there can be more than one side to a situation that involves an A does not mean I'm defending anyone.

 

 

How many hundreds of posts have you read here of people talking about their "GUT" feeling that their spouse was cheating? Well, a gut feeling sure seems like a non-verbal cue to me. You may call it mind-reading, but it is more like being attentive. Just because those cues were no slapping you in the face before the A doesn't mwan trhey weren't present. Likely they just got so bad you couldn't ignore them any longer.

 

Maybe she did take the cowards way out and maybe you were to blame. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

The problem is that too many here are unwilling to accept that there are two sides, and sometimes the BS can be a cause for a poor decision. Doesn't make the decision right of the WS, but it also does not invalidate the possibility that the BS was a contributor.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Realist3

[Realist3]

frozensprouts,

 

I don't know if there was anything you could have done. I certainly can't pretend to know that being a non-participant in your relationship. Each situation is very different.

 

There are a whole host of scenarios that are at play from both parties in an affair. All I have said is that this notion that it is always 100% the fault of the WS is not totally accurate. Yes, it was their decision to have the affair, but there are usually many factors surrounding that decision than just their own selfishness.

[Furious]

The problem is that too many here are unwilling to accept that there are two sides, and sometimes the BS can be a cause for a poor decision. Doesn't make the decision right of the WS, but it also does not invalidate the possibility that the BS was a contributor.

 

 

Interesting...

 

Your OW's husband cheats on her, did she cause her husband to cheat?

[96nole]

You are mistaken. Just because I show that there can be more than one side to a situation that involves an A does not mean I'm defending anyone.

 

 

How many hundreds of posts have you read here of people talking about their "GUT" feeling that their spouse was cheating? Well, a gut feeling sure seems like a non-verbal cue to me. You may call it mind-reading, but it is more like being attentive. Just because those cues were no slapping you in the face before the A doesn't mwan trhey weren't present. Likely they just got so bad you couldn't ignore them any longer.

 

Maybe she did take the cowards way out and maybe you were to blame. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

The problem is that too many here are unwilling to accept that there are two sides, and sometimes the BS can be a cause for a poor decision. Doesn't make the decision right of the WS, but it also does not invalidate the possibility that the BS was a contributor.

 

Yep, there are hundreds of posts about the GUT feeling their spouse is cheating. BUT, none of them are about the GUT feeling there is a problem that is not being communicated about. And generally the GUT feeling is because the WS has changed their patterns.

 

By the time the GUT feeling kicks in there may be cheating, it's too late.

[JamesM]

@ James,

 

I respect your continuous attempts to be a well-balanced poster. in many parts of your posts, I fully agree. I fully own my share of responsibility for marital problems and the scenarios that you posed are certainly within the norm (should have talked to my wife more, etc). I certainly had an influence over the marital happiness and/or discord. But I had no vote in her decision to cheat and so I will accept no responsibility for her choice to do so. Marital problems don't cause cheating. What leads to cheating is a decision to book a hotel room, drive there, check-in, remove your blouse, and do it six ways from Sunday. These are all conscious choices with plenty of stop signs along the way and many make the same choices repeatedly for years when more ethical and healthy choices are right in front of them. I won't own my wife's bull**** decisions and I don't think other BSs should do so either. The WSs can own that crap.

 

You and I understand each other quite well, and I feel for the pain your endured. We may have to disagree on some points.

 

I do agree that a person chooses to cheat. We have no control over that choice. All we can do is make it as difficult as possible to want to cheat.

 

My wife needs an emotional connection in our marriage. I need a physical connection. I know that when our emotional connection was weak, then it would (or may) have been attractive to her to start and EA with someone just as it has been attractive for me to start a PA with someone else. And the reverse is true...when the connection is strong, neither of us desire to go elsewhere for our needs.

 

All situations are not as cleat cut as that...no question about that.

 

But we cannot dismiss the marital problems with an "all marriages have problems" or "I know I didn't do everything right" followed by a "but I did not cause him or her to feel a desire to choose an affair."

 

Of course, we cannot control someone else's choices, but we certainly can influence them.

[Spark1111]

You are mistaken. Just because I show that there can be more than one side to a situation that involves an A does not mean I'm defending anyone.

 

 

How many hundreds of posts have you read here of people talking about their "GUT" feeling that their spouse was cheating? Well, a gut feeling sure seems like a non-verbal cue to me. You may call it mind-reading, but it is more like being attentive. Just because those cues were no slapping you in the face before the A doesn't mwan trhey weren't present. Likely they just got so bad you couldn't ignore them any longer.

 

Maybe she did take the cowards way out and maybe you were to blame. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

The problem is that too many here are unwilling to accept that there are two sides, and sometimes the BS can be a cause for a poor decision. Doesn't make the decision right of the WS, but it also does not invalidate the possibility that the BS was a contributor.

 

No one is unwilling to accept that there are two sides; that a BS may have contributed to problems within the marriage. Sure, it happens everyday.

 

But only one person decided to cheat, and while that may have selfishly taken care of the needs of one, it did not nothing to improve the marriage between the spouses.

 

If two people are in a supposedly loveless marriage, I often find it astonishing that two people did not both make a decision to cheat to have their needs met elsewhere.

 

That's called a conversation, and for the life of me, I never remember having that with my spouse, or he with me, prior to his affair.

 

How miserable could he have been if we never had a simple conversation about it? if he never said a word about it?

 

I think, not too miserable initially.

 

And why do all men think affairs are about sex?

 

The longest my spouse and I went without being physical in our ENTIRE 30 plus years of relationship was 13 days following HIS back operation.

 

I mean c'mon guys.

[JamesM]

Nopey. The decision to cheat is ONLY on the cheater. The decision to dislike a R situation MAY be on both parties, but it MAY be only on one. It could be on the one who is very happy in the R but has no concern for their partner. It could ALSO be on the one who is unhappy in that they may be causing their own misery by being a jackass to their R partner. There are also many situations where NO amount of effort on one of the parties will EVER be enough. SOME people just want a M and an A. Just like a male WS who used to post quite regularly. He had nearly identical views to another male WS who posts frequently now. He had a BS, an OW AND ANOTHER OW (who the first OW knows nothing about)! Hmmm.... I think I know wherein lies the problem in THAT marriage.

 

There are alot of "coulds" and no marriage is identical. No one says that the decision is made by anyone but the person who chooses an affair. What I will say is that the condition of the marriage can certainly influence what decision the WS decides. Yes, there are happy marriages where a spouse chooses an affair. Yes, there are bad marriages where no one cheats. And yes, the serial cheater may blame everyone but himself.

 

What happens too often is that the BS simply says "it is the cheater's fault and I have no control over what happened" and then moves onto another relationship where it happens again...and blames the cheater again...and moves onto another relationship where it happens again...and blames the cheater....

 

Meanwhile, if the BS had simply looked inward and realized how he or she may have contributed to the first affair, he or she could have avoided much heartbreak and pain.

[JamesM]

 

And why do all men think affairs are about sex?

 

 

Good question. And they aren't. But for many men the worst betrayal is the breaking of the sexual monogamy in a marriage just as with many women the biggest betrayal is becoming emotionally involved with another woman.

 

All affairs are not about sex, and many men choose a sexual affair because they actually are missing the emotional connection...which they feel is built through sex.

 

Women on the other hand tend to bond emotionally to the OM and then move on to sex.

 

Interesting question that would help many solve what went wrong with their marriage.

[Spark1111]

You and I understand each other quite well, and I feel for the pain your endured. We may have to disagree on some points.

 

I do agree that a person chooses to cheat. We have no control over that choice. All we can do is make it as difficult as possible to want to cheat.

 

My wife needs an emotional connection in our marriage. I need a physical connection. I know that when our emotional connection was weak, then it would (or may) have been attractive to her to start and EA with someone just as it has been attractive for me to start a PA with someone else. And the reverse is true...when the connection is strong, neither of us desire to go elsewhere for our needs.

 

All situations are not as cleat cut as that...no question about that.

 

But we cannot dismiss the marital problems with an "all marriages have problems" or "I know I didn't do everything right" followed by a "but I did not cause him or her to feel a desire to choose an affair."

 

Of course, we cannot control someone else's choices, but we certainly can influence them.

 

James, pre-affair, I would have agreed with you 100%, but what did I know then?

 

Now, I have to disagree with you 100%.

 

You are still amongst those who view an affair as a reasonable and rational response to having a need met by someone else that is not being met by the spouse or marriage.

 

I am hear to tell you, while that may be the case in some affairs, it is not the case in all affairs.

 

Sometimes, (shocker, I know) even the cheater has no idea why they are taking steps down the slippery slope except someone started harmlessly flirting one day, and damn that felt good.

[BetrayedH]

You and I understand each other quite well, and I feel for the pain your endured. We may have to disagree on some points.

 

I do agree that a person chooses to cheat. We have no control over that choice. All we can do is make it as difficult as possible to want to cheat.

 

My wife needs an emotional connection in our marriage. I need a physical connection. I know that when our emotional connection was weak, then it would (or may) have been attractive to her to start and EA with someone just as it has been attractive for me to start a PA with someone else. And the reverse is true...when the connection is strong, neither of us desire to go elsewhere for our needs.

 

All situations are not as cleat cut as that...no question about that.

 

But we cannot dismiss the marital problems with an "all marriages have problems" or "I know I didn't do everything right" followed by a "but I did not cause him or her to feel a desire to choose an affair."

 

Of course, we cannot control someone else's choices, but we certainly can influence them.

 

You and I can agree to disagree and I think it's mostly about semantics anyway.

 

But don't cheat on your wife 'cause I'll say it was all your fault.

[Spark1111]

Good question. And they aren't. But for many men the worst betrayal is the breaking of the sexual monogamy in a marriage just as with many women the biggest betrayal is becoming emotionally involved with another woman.

 

All affairs are not about sex, and many men choose a sexual affair because they actually are missing the emotional connection...which they feel is built through sex.

 

Women on the other hand tend to bond emotionally to the OM and then move on to sex.

 

Interesting question that would help many solve what went wrong with their marriage.

 

True! But it still supposes something went wrong with the marriage. Sometimes, something just is wrong with spouse who decides to cheat. maybe they didn't communicate clearly; maybe they didn't say, I need x, y, and z from you, and if I do not get it or you are truly incapable of giving it, I may need to seek it elsewhere.

 

Those needs can be anything from validation to appreciation to physical acts.

 

But trust me on this, those who cheat rarely communicate this to their spouse clearly, or as a dealbreaker; rarely seek counseling for themselves to gain the strength to communicate like this, or introspect to even determine what they need, why they need it, and tell their spouse.

 

Most BSs wake up on the worst day of their life to intercept a text or email or cell phone call to discover what the hell happened and where the marriage took a left and why did I have no idea it was this bad or he or she was that miserable.

[waterwoman]

Of course a less than perfect marriage can result in infidelity. So looked at in the round a BS can contribute to the situation in which an affair happens. BS still does not cause their partner to cheat.

 

The other issue being how can the BS guess that things are bad enough for infidelity to occur? When they ask again and again what is wrong? When they get treated like paranoid, suspicious idiots who are suffocating the WS with their constant questions so they vow to be less clingy and demanding and try not to irritate the WS with their needs and worries.. And when the BS is *just* as unhappy as the WS with the way things are but gives up trying to fix it when they get nothing back from the WS in return.

[Realist3]

No one is unwilling to accept that there are two sides; that a BS may have contributed to problems within the marriage. Sure, it happens everyday.

 

But only one person decided to cheat, and while that may have selfishly taken care of the needs of one, it did not nothing to improve the marriage between the spouses.

 

If two people are in a supposedly loveless marriage, I often find it astonishing that two people did not both make a decision to cheat to have their needs met elsewhere.

 

That's called a conversation, and for the life of me, I never remember having that with my spouse, or he with me, prior to his affair.

 

How miserable could he have been if we never had a simple conversation about it? if he never said a word about it?

 

I think, not too miserable initially.

 

And why do all men think affairs are about sex?]/b]

 

The longest my spouse and I went without being physical in our ENTIRE 30 plus years of relationship was 13 days following HIS back operation.

 

I mean c'mon guys.

 

Good post.

 

That is a good question. I know mine is certainly not about sex alone. Yes, we have great sex from time to time, but it certainly not the center of the relationship.

 

I did some counting for interaction the other day and for the past 2+ years we have averaged around 2700 back and forths a month. That includes texts, emails, chats; and they are not about sex or how wonderfully beautiful we think each other are. They are about everyday stuff, laundry, kids, vacations, gossip, workouts, car issues, normal situations.

[JamesM]

James, pre-affair, I would have agreed with you 100%, but what did I know then?

 

Now, I have to disagree with you 100%.

 

You knew what you knew and you may disagree.

 

You are still amongst those who view an affair as a reasonable and rational response to having a need met by someone else that is not being met by the spouse or marriage.

 

No, I don't think all affairs are reasonable and rational responses. I do believe that many are a reaction to a bad marital situation.

 

I am hear to tell you, while that may be the case in some affairs, it is not the case in all affairs.

 

Actually, I know that some affairs do happen which are not rational. They can happen for many reasons.

 

Sometimes, (shocker, I know) even the cheater has no idea why they are taking steps down the slippery slope except someone started harmlessly flirting one day, and damn that felt good.

 

Many of those that started down that slippery slope are like some here who say "I could never cheat" because they view cheaters as a lower class individual with a character flaw. I disagree and say that a cheater is no different than you or I except of the choice they made.

 

Affairs can start in a good marriage when the WS begins to get close to someone and doesn't set boundaries. While it is my responsibility to make it difficult for my wife to want an affair and hers to make it difficult for me to want an affair, it is also my responsibility to recognize that I could choose an affair. And as an action of love towards my wife, I need to set boundaries so that I do not put myself into a situation where I could "find myself" in an affair.

 

I am responsible for my decisions and she is for hers. I am responsible for the state of our marriage and she is also.

 

Good point and we disagree less than you think.

[Realist3]

Interesting...

 

Your OW's husband cheats on her, did she cause her husband to cheat?

 

I don't know for sure. It is none of my business. I do have some guesses. I think her childhood parental dysfunction issues made her look for a father figure and she got married to an older man way too early, 18. As she matured she became detached emotionally from a controlling H, and in return he sought some gratification elsewhere. Just my theory.

[aed]

To all the users who say that the BS has any attempt and responsability in the affaire of the cheating partner:

 

Is a victim of fysical abuse in a relationship also responsable for the beatings they get? Because you have influence someone's actions and behavours

 

right?

 

BTW: what does WS mean?

[BetrayedH]

BTW: what does WS mean?

 

Wayward (or wandering) Spouse.

[96nole]

True! But it still supposes something went wrong with the marriage. Sometimes, something just is wrong with spouse who decides to cheat. maybe they didn't communicate clearly; maybe they didn't say, I need x, y, and z from you, and if I do not get it or you are truly incapable of giving it, I may need to seek it elsewhere.

 

Those needs can be anything from validation to appreciation to physical acts.

 

But trust me on this, those who cheat rarely communicate this to their spouse clearly, or as a dealbreaker; rarely seek counseling for themselves to gain the strength to communicate like this, or introspect to even determine what they need, why they need it, and tell their spouse.

 

Most BSs wake up on the worst day of their life to intercept a text or email or cell phone call to discover what the hell happened and where the marriage took a left and why did I have no idea it was this bad or he or she was that miserable.

 

The night before D-Day 1, the ex came home and we got into the first fight we ever had. Later that night she was on the phone with a friend of hers, I heard the ex say "I've been miserable for the past year". That was the very first time I was hearing about it.

[Bittersweetie]

Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

 

In the midst of my A, I'd probably have said yes. My H was angry all the time, didn't listen, worked too much, I was unhappy and it was all his fault. Now, I realize the A was MY choice and MY action. Not my H's fault at all. I wasn't exactly fun to be around either at that time and he didn't do anything like I did. My thoughts then were to justify what I was doing: "My H isn't doing B so I'm going to do C." Yes, there were some things missing from our marriage that was on both of us. But I didn't make my dissatisfaction clear; I didn't have the hard conversation; I didn't try hard enough to fix it. Instead I chose the weak way out. Never again.

[Spark1111]

The night before D-Day 1, the ex came home and we got into the first fight we ever had. Later that night she was on the phone with a friend of hers, I heard the ex say "I've been miserable for the past year". That was the very first time I was hearing about it.

 

Hmmmm...and was she already in the affair by then?

 

Because the more enmeshed my H became with his AP, the more miserable he seemingly grew with me.

 

Amazing how that works out, no?

[Mr. Lucky]

The night before D-Day 1, the ex came home and we got into the first fight we ever had.

 

As a BS, I don't condone or justify cheating. But that you would make that statement makes me wonder how realistic a view of your marriage you had ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Spark1111]

Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

 

In the midst of my A, I'd probably have said yes. My H was angry all the time, didn't listen, worked too much, I was unhappy and it was all his fault. Now, I realize the A was MY choice and MY action. Not my H's fault at all. I wasn't exactly fun to be around either at that time and he didn't do anything like I did. My thoughts then were to justify what I was doing: "My H isn't doing B so I'm going to do C." Yes, there were some things missing from our marriage that was on both of us. But I didn't make my dissatisfaction clear; I didn't have the hard conversation; I didn't try hard enough to fix it. Instead I chose the weak way out. Never again.

 

In MC, that my fWH insisted on as I was walking out the door, he learned it is not what you are getting from the marriage, it is what you are giving to it that can determine how happy you are in it.

 

I remember thinking, wow! Had he called and texted and sent me cards and flowers and acted so interested in me as in the early days of our relationship...If he had devoted that time and attention to "us" as he did to her, we would have had one amazing relationship.

[Furious]

I don't know for sure. It is none of my business. I do have some guesses. I think her childhood parental dysfunction issues made her look for a father figure and she got married to an older man way too early, 18. As she matured she became detached emotionally from a controlling H, and in return he sought some gratification elsewhere. Just my theory.

 

So in essence she's the cause as to why her controlling husband cheats.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Furious