Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[woinlove]

Great post. I would like to further add, as regards the bolded, that there may also be an epiphany on the part of one or both R partners which could then lead to reparations of the M to the satisfaction of both. COMMUNICATION PEOPLE! There IS no communication where lying is involved.

 

Yes, communication! And lying is miscommunication.

 

Whenever I read of a WS who plans to "work" on the M while continuing to deceive the BS, I can't help thinking the chances of a happy M hover close to zilch. I don't understand how anyone can have a truly happy M without lots of open and honest communication. Some marriages fall down considerably in this department, and then if one spouse decides to have an A, that pretty well kills any chances for real communication unless the truth comes out. Both spouses could be the cause of the failing communication, but the one who lies, typically day after day, to have an A causes the communication meter to go negative.

[Decorative]

When someone does to decide to cheat, then the thrill of the affair takes over the lack of what was missing in the marriage. As you have said, lies and deception almost inevitably start.

 

One of those lies would be that everything is perfect, because to then admit that it is not would mean the possibility/probability of uncovering the affair. And at this point, the WS wants the affair more than the marriage...and yet does not want the marriage to disintegrate either. The affair provides a thrilling and secret life. The marriage (even if it is far from perfect) provides the "normal" life that the WS still needs.

 

Affairs are an addiction in many cases that are started to fill a need. Most are not about true love but about the love of how it feels.

 

And to be honest about why he or she is in the affair could destroy the now precious affair.

 

Once he or she goes down the road on the Affair Highway, there are few exits that will be honest and constructive until one hits the Wall of Reality at the end.

 

It's not about unmet needs in the situation where the wayward is the overbenefitted partner.

 

Because in that situation? The betrayed is the one giving more to the relationship, more invested, and is the one getting less back.

 

And yet they don't cheat.

 

The problem is that affairs are not one size fits all in their causation.

 

But as for the scenario of a wayward who insists that the betrayed wasn't a factor- there's a clear understanding of that dynamic, explained in books by Glass, Pittman and Fisher.

[sweet_pea]

James I see why both sides see it as justifying in a sense. I see the BS and my H as partly responsible and I see you agree with this! No wonder the betrayed spouses here take it out on you. Thank you for seeing it from our side. I agree. I see you as taking tw heat off me- I'm not the only one who caused this affair and the BS is not blameless!

 

Mourning,

 

In your case, what blame should the BS take? Why are they responsible for the affair you involved yourself in?

[Decorative]

I really don't understand the AP blaming the BS.

 

My spouse's affair wasn't about me. If it had been- then maybe my future behavior could act as insurance against infidelity .

 

It doesn't work like that. I can be the best me I can be. I can be loving and kind and respectful of my spouse.

 

And he can still choose to cheat.

 

Just like he did before.

 

I cannot control his behavior with mine.

[Spark1111]

James I see why both sides see it as justifying in a sense. I see the BS and my H as partly responsible and I see you agree with this! No wonder the betrayed spouses here take it out on you. Thank you for seeing it from our side. I agree. I see you as taking tw heat off me- I'm not the only one who caused this affair and the BS is not blameless!

 

And you demanded MC before your affair? You told your H unequivocally that if he did not meet need A, B, or C, you fully intended to seek it elsewhere?

 

No offense ML, and not meaning any smarminess, but the people I know IRL who ent on to have affairs seem to be chronic complainers, feel very sorry for themselves, and throw in the towel pretty quickly with Oh he or she will never change, without making any effort to seriously change anything, even though they perceive they have.

 

And I include my H in that group just prior and during his affair.

[frozensprouts]

I agree and my intention is certainly not to diminish your experiences. I do have a different view and it is from a different angle.

 

No question it would be different from your angle whether to a small or larger degree.

 

Please accept my apologies if anything I say hurts or angers you. I never want that to happen, nor do I want to cause pain or a reopening of your wounds with my words.

 

Mine is philosophical and yet it may be more objective, too. Hopefully it does help some and not anger all. One doesn't have to be a veteran in the trenches to understand how war kills, nor does one has to actually fight to know how to prevent or strategize in war. Yet that position will never be the same as one who has bled and died for their country.

 

while i can see your point, the reality is often far removed from the philosophical...

 

to use you example of war...i can watch documentaries, read books, talk to soldiers, etc., but unless i have been there myself, i have no real idea of just how awful it really is...

 

and, to take the war analogy even further, if one is asked "what caused the war", an outsider looking in may give a totally different answer than the soldier, from either side, who was there and saw for themselves the reality...

 

it's also somewhat simplistic to say which side is responsible, as maybe both sides are...but the war is not an okay solution

 

if we follow the example of "lack of sex" being a cause for cheating, then where does the responsibility lie? ith the person who wants sex or the person who doesn't? why doesn't the one spouse want sex? how did the marriage get like that? can one person be responsible for it being that way?

 

i do see value in addressing the "cause" of the cheating and correcting those issues, but that can not happen in a vacuum...the person who chose to cheat needs to figure out what is was inside of them that allowed them to make that decision, otherwise, the next time their marriage hits a rough spot, they may be very inclined to repeat the behavior...as the saying goes 'those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

 

( done being philosophical for the night..having an "end of the world " party tonight, so have to get some stuff ready...going to have some fun before the world ends next week:laugh:- anyone who really believes the world will end can feel free to send thier stuff to me since they won't need it anymore:laugh:)

[JamesM]

while i can see your point, the reality is often far removed from the philosophical...

 

to use you example of war...i can watch documentaries, read books, talk to soldiers, etc., but unless i have been there myself, i have no real idea of just how awful it really is...

 

and, to take the war analogy even further, if one is asked "what caused the war", an outsider looking in may give a totally different answer than the soldier, from either side, who was there and saw for themselves the reality...

 

 

Actually, using your analogy too. The soldier on the battlefield who is closely involved most likely cannot see the cause of the war, because he cannot objectively see the overall picture. The Russian soldier would see one reason, and the American would see it another way. But perhaps someone not involved could see a more balanced view...and give a better overall reason why it all happened.

 

The WS will see it one way. The BS will see it a different way. And the MC will be able to look at both sides and explain how it all really happened.

 

So it is entirely possible that the objective and philosophical analysis which is not emotional or one-sided, will be the most true one.

 

I don't say that my view is wrong. I say it s different. I see one side saying the WS is to blame for the affair. I read of WSs who say that the BS caused them to cheat. And then I read of a few who say that it is both the made the affair happen by letting the marriage fail or weaken.

 

I can see why my view may anger some. I can see why it may hurt some. And for that I apologize. I truly don't intend to do either.

[CantgetoveritNY]

I sometimes wonder how "sexless" some "sexless" marriages really are...( I'm not saying this applies to all situations, but maybe some of them)

 

I once read an article co-written by a husband and wife after an affair that addressed this topic...

 

seems that the husband cheated, and blamed his wife and said 'but we had a sexless marriage" ( much to the chagrin of his wife)...

 

turns out that during counseling, they discussed sex and it seems that the marriage was far from sexless ( they were having sex several times a week) but it wasn't sex that the husband found satisfactory...he never told his wife this, and she really didn't know...

 

from his point of view, that was a "sexless marriage", but to his wife, it wasn't...

 

this illustrates very well the need to communicate, even if it's about a difficult topic...maybe if he had told her how he'd been feeling, they could've talked about it and tried to find ways to improve their situation and make things better...but, for whatever reason, they didn't...

 

it would seem that t would have been far better to have had one difficult conversation that got the ball rolling on making things better than it was to do things they way they did and not talk about it

 

Wow. What a segway. This ties into what men say about being blind sided that their wives did not find their H satisfying emotionally.

[MourningLosses]

Oh never mind.

[BetrayedH]

Oh never mind.

 

LOL. Funny how difficult it is to get along with the other parts of the triangle. Hell, the BSs can't even agree with each other. Not sure I would want to wade in there either.

[woinlove]

So it is entirely possible that the objective and philosophical analysis which is not emotional or one-sided, will be the most true one.

 

I don't say that my view is wrong. I say it s different. I see one side saying the WS is to blame for the affair. I read of WSs who say that the BS caused them to cheat. And then I read of a few who say that it is both the made the affair happen by letting the marriage fail or weaken.

 

I can see why my view may anger some. I can see why it may hurt some. And for that I apologize. I truly don't intend to do either.

 

But who decides what view is objective? As a former OW, some might assume my status would put me on the side of cheating, but I believe no one can cause someone else to behave in an unethical way. Someone can influence them, but they cannot cause such a breach in conduct. Only the person who behaves unethically can make that decision and be the cause of their own deception. I know with certainty that I am that way. When I do something wrong, I am fully aware that it is me making that choice and no one else is the cause of it. They may have influenced me, but they did not cause me to do something wrong.

 

I feel there is tremendous benefit and comfort in knowing that one has been, and will be, the cause of any unethical behavior on one's part. To me, I would be worried if I felt others could cause me to behave unethically. That would mean I could not trust myself. Not a good place to be.

 

Again, remove the deception and lies, so there is no WS or BS, just out in the open complex relationships involving a triangle, and everything changes. It is the lying and deceit of affairs that not every person is capable of and some will willfully choose not to go down that path, perhaps because they have learned from other forms of bad behavior on their part and how it made them feel to behave badly.

[woinlove]

My "epiphany" came from learning to love more and deeper, both myself and others.

 

I think people who lack self-control will learn more by realizing the power lies within themselves, than by finding others to blame for the cause of their lack of self-control. While ito some it may seem like empathizing with people who chose to cheat, I don't think it ultimately does them any favors. If they want to stop cheating, they will need to look inward, not outward, for the insight and answers.

Edited December 15, 2012 by woinlove

[woinlove]

Guess you and all others who believe as you do, and don't think sex is a basic human need, need to brush up on your Maslow. The first level (most basic) of the Maslow pyramid of needs is:

 

1. Biological and Physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.

 

 

It never fails to astound me the extent to which people will unabashedly and proudly proclaim what is in effect blind ignorance of basic aspects of humanity, apparently they haven't learned or accepted this basic info either academically or by their own personal experience or even common sense.

 

You are correct that Maslow placed sex under the basic needs, emphasizing the physical aspect which can be satisfied with masturbation, a toy or whatever, and ignoring any emotional part of sex that actually requires another person. So, the way he placed sex has nothing to do with this thread unless you think another person can cause you to choose to not masturbate, just like some think they can cause you to choose to lie.

[nofool4u]

Oh snap

 

This is all a big game to you where you want everyone to believe that you are entitled to cheat. Ok, fine. I'll concede and let you have that, along with James' classroom session.

 

Like I said, its settled. The BS caused the WS to cheat. The thread can be considered done I would think.

 

But just so anyone knows, below is the mindset of someone who thinks just that.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/339889-e-mail-my-wife

 

An interesting read to say the least

 

So I understand your wife cheated on you too, and perhaps first? So then you caused your wife to cheat.

 

Like I said, end of discussion and this issue is now resolved.

Edited December 17, 2012 by nofool4u

[drifter777]

You are correct that Maslow placed sex under the basic needs, emphasizing the physical aspect which can be satisfied with masturbation, a toy or whatever, and ignoring any emotional part of sex that actually requires another person. So, the way he placed sex has nothing to do with this thread unless you think another person can cause you to choose to not masturbate, just like some think they can cause you to choose to lie.

 

 

Actually Maslow listed sex as "sexual intimacy" leaving the impression that he meant something more than simply cumming. To me me he meant satisfying closeness needs, emotional intimacy, and full-on nasty dirty sweaty sex.

[Spark1111]

Actually Maslow listed sex as "sexual intimacy" leaving the impression that he meant something more than simply cumming. To me me he meant satisfying closeness needs, emotional intimacy, and full-on nasty dirty sweaty sex.

 

Yes! And there is that famous experiment where given a choice of food or affection, the infant monkey chose affection and touch over food.

[woinlove]

Actually Maslow listed sex as "sexual intimacy" leaving the impression that he meant something more than simply cumming. To me me he meant satisfying closeness needs, emotional intimacy, and full-on nasty dirty sweaty sex.

 

Sexual intimacy was put under love/belonging, a couple rungs up his pyramid. The bottom was supposed to be just basic physical needs and he put sex there. In any case, his classification and the whole idea of a pyramid has been criticized. Some people might not even agree with separating sex and sexual intimacy.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Sexual intimacy was put under love/belonging, a couple rungs up his pyramid. The bottom was supposed to be just basic physical needs and he put sex there.

 

I understand that he put sex there because, since it is an absolute requirement for the continuation of the species, it had to be there. Not because it was a requirement for individual life. It's handily misconstrued in discussions like this one often.

 

Conversations that devolve into rants about women "denying" men the sex they believe they are entitled to because they're married make me sick. I know this is not always the case - sometimes a person shuts themselves off sexually and really is depriving their spouse. But when a man is on a power rampage and trying to smash his wife into a corner and to submit to his rage fueled will, she is going to hate the idea of having sex with him. It probably makes her throw up a little. Not to mention the likelihood that she is being "denied" plenty of things in the marriage that she may feel entitled to as a married person.

[JamesM]

It is one thing to demand sex. It is something else to deny it.

 

When a wife denies it to a husband because he demands it, then we would concede that it is all about power.

 

When a woman denies sex to her husband without any reason, then we can say that it still may be a power struggle.

 

But the fact remains....no matter why sex is denied by either spouse, the wedding vow states that we will remain faithful to each other. This implies (since most do not mention sex as equivalent to faithful) that each person will have sex only with the other.

 

When either one seeks sex elsewhere, we all know that this by commission is adultery.

 

But when one refuses the other, then this by omission is also a serious breach of the same vow.

 

If one were to have a revenge affair after her husband had his affair, many here would be understanding and not ask why reconciliation or counseling were first sought. Yet when a husband seeks to have sex in a "revenge affair" after his wife refused sex with him for a great length of time, then we cannot understand why he did not seek counseling, communication, or leave. Instead we blame him as a cheater with a character flaw.

 

Until you have been trapped in a marriage where your partner refuses sex daily, weekly and monthly while giving no answers as to why except "It is me and not you," then please do not sit in judgment about someone who decides that an affair is the only option.

 

Seeking a divorce that breaks up the family because a partner refuses sex is kinda frowned upon. Seeking a divorce because a partner seeks sex elsewhere is applauded.

 

And yet...both are for the same reason...a breaking of the wedding vow.

[aed]

It is one thing to demand sex. It is something else to deny it.

 

When a wife denies it to a husband because he demands it, then we would concede that it is all about power.

 

When a woman denies sex to her husband without any reason, then we can say that it still may be a power struggle.

 

But the fact remains....no matter why sex is denied by either spouse, the wedding vow states that we will remain faithful to each other. This implies (since most do not mention sex as equivalent to faithful) that each person will have sex only with the other.

 

When either one seeks sex elsewhere, we all know that this by commission is adultery.

 

But when one refuses the other, then this by omission is also a serious breach of the same vow.

 

If one were to have a revenge affair after her husband had his affair, many here would be understanding and not ask why reconciliation or counseling were first sought. Yet when a husband seeks to have sex in a "revenge affair" after his wife refused sex with him for a great length of time, then we cannot understand why he did not seek counseling, communication, or leave. Instead we blame him as a cheater with a character flaw.

 

Until you have been trapped in a marriage where your partner refuses sex daily, weekly and monthly while giving no answers as to why except "It is me and not you," then please do not sit in judgment about someone who decides that an affair is the only option.

 

Seeking a divorce that breaks up the family because a partner refuses sex is kinda frowned upon. Seeking a divorce because a partner seeks sex elsewhere is applauded.

 

And yet...both are for the same reason...a breaking of the wedding vow.

 

 

I disagree because: divorce because of lack of sex is honest and missing the lack of affecting in a marriage. At this moment you are being open and honest about your needs and expectations of the relationship. Your spouse can antisipate at the situation!

 

cheating is lying to your spouse. You keep someone in the dark and most people don't expect it. (and what I read here on LS most cheaters have excuses for their cheating and years later those who take responsability for their cheating al say they lived in a fog!!!)

 

So Wife is meeting interesting stranger and she feel chemestry, HB doesnt prevoke the same kind of chemestry and wife is putting effort in the connection with OM. Then they blame their HB for the lack of connection and affection. But they can't seem to understand what the source is for the lack of affection.

 

So if anyone who has an affaire would put that same amount of energy in their relationship they would have an amazing marraige. If that doesn't work then go for divorce, ask for open marraige etc.

 

Its al about honesty and true communication

[nofool4u]

It is one thing to demand sex. It is something else to deny it.

 

When a wife denies it to a husband because he demands it, then we would concede that it is all about power.

 

No, we could concede that its not a turn on to have anything demanded of them.

 

You really think if a guy demands and says "give me a blow job and swallow" that the woman, unless she has no self respect, is going to deny him based on "power"?

 

No, she is going to deny him because he is a disgusting pig and its a turn off.

 

 

But the fact remains....no matter why sex is denied by either spouse, the wedding vow states that we will remain faithful to each other. This implies (since most do not mention sex as equivalent to faithful) that each person will have sex only with the other.

 

When either one seeks sex elsewhere, we all know that this by commission is adultery.

 

But when one refuses the other, then this by omission is also a serious breach of the same vow.

 

I understand the whole "no sex" thing. I get it. But to say there is a breach of vows because one refuses the other? As if they have an obligation to drop the panties on demand? Come on. Its already been established by one of the resident cheaters on this site that if sex occurs "only" a couple times a week, then that is pushing the boundaries for causing the other to have an affair.

 

 

If one were to have a revenge affair after her husband had his affair, many here would be understanding and not ask why reconciliation or counseling were first sought.

 

Not me. She then becomes no better than her husband and, IMO, has lost all right to complain.

 

 

Yet when a husband seeks to have sex in a "revenge affair" after his wife refused sex with him for a great length of time, then we cannot understand why he did not seek counseling, communication, or leave. Instead we blame him as a cheater with a character flaw.

 

Not me. It doesn't matter what the gender. A cheater is a cheater, IMO.

 

 

Until you have been trapped in a marriage where your partner refuses sex daily, weekly and monthly while giving no answers as to why except "It is me and not you," then please do not sit in judgment about someone who decides that an affair is the only option.

 

Thanks for the permission then, because I have been in that exact situation.

 

 

Seeking a divorce that breaks up the family because a partner refuses sex is kinda frowned upon. Seeking a divorce because a partner seeks sex elsewhere is applauded.

 

I agree with the latter, but not the former.

[frozensprouts]

there are many ways to "trap" someone in a marriage, and sex is just one of them...

 

but if one is going to say that cheating is somehow understandable when it's because of sex, then why is it not just as understandable for other reasons?

 

everyone assigns a different value to things, and honestly, if someone wants to cheat, they'll find a reason...

 

 

( this isn't to say every man, or even most men, are like that...but some are, and if you were a woman married to a guy like that, what would you do to make sex better? what if your husband wouldn't listen? there seems to be a big assumption on here that only men have to deal with wives who don't want sex or are 'bad" at it)

[nofool4u]

My x-wife's lack of sex and attention CAUSED me to work out more, get some home improvement projects done, and rediscover the joys of masturbation

[woinlove]

The language of demanding/refusing sex sounds like a M that is failing. My H and I each don't always want sex when the other one does, although we mostly do. We've never seen this as a problem. And when I was very ill for a year and a half, we had almost no sex, and even though we are in an open M, my H was not with anyone else during that time. He was too focussed on me, concerned about my health. In a healthy M, there is no demanding or refusing of sex, alhough there may sometimes be requests and declines, and sometimes one just knows the other is not up to it whether due to health or other demands.

 

As someone pointed out, usually an ongoing lack of desire for sex in an M (if not due to health reasons) is a signal something is wrong in the M and likely both people contributed to get it to that stage. The answer is not to become a dishonest person and deceive one's spouse because of that. The answer is lots of honest and open communciation and if that is not possible, then seeking professional help or separating/divorcing.

 

Basically becoming dishonest is not an answer to anything, even to a spouse who is dishonest. I don't think so-called revenge affairs are justified; it is just addressing dishonesty with more dishonesty. If the revenge affair, is basically the BS telling the WS that the WS broke the marriage vows and so now the BS is going to feel free to pursue others and is open and honest about that - well, that is quite a different matter. Still not a way to contribute positively to the M, and probably not a good way to heal from the betrayal, but at least in that situation the BS is not choosing to become a dishonest person just because the WS was dishonest.

[BetrayedH]

Until you have been trapped in a marriage where your partner refuses sex daily, weekly and monthly while giving no answers as to why except "It is me and not you," then please do not sit in judgment about someone who decides that an affair is the only option.

 

I was in that situation and chose not to cheat. I will sit in judgment of those that decide an affair is the only option because it isn't the only option. James, with all due respect, you cannot see the forest for the trees as you are too close to your own situation. You have done far too much pre-affair rationalizing. I did the same thing. If you cheat, it's on you and no one else. Not happy? Fix it or leave. Decide to cheat instead? Own it.