Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[JamesM]

Exactly, because there is no blame when one spouse decides to have an affair. Thats what this thread is about, CAUSING the WS to have an AFFAIR.

 

Again (as I have said again and again) the blame for the actual decision is upon the one who decides. The cause for what may have brought about the decision rests on who is most responsible. No one can be blamed for another's decisions.

 

This thread is not about blame. It is about cause.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides for the state of their marriage. Blame can be assigned to both spouses in that regard. It cannot be assigned to the BS as blaming them for their spouse's infidelity.

 

This thread is about cause...not blame.

 

Correct, each carries that burden for the health of their MARRIAGE, not one spouse's infidelity.

 

 

And the cause may be the health of the marriage. The cause may be the lack of emotional connection in the marriage. the cause may be the lack of sex in the marriage.

 

Stating a cause (have I said this before? ) does not assign blame.

[nofool4u]

This thread is not about blame. It is about cause.

 

 

This thread is about cause...not blame.

 

Oh come on now. I think there is at least one person here trying to not so subtly apply blame under the guise of cause. (and no, I don't mean you)

 

 

 

And the cause may be the health of the marriage.

 

Right, but the title of the thread is "Can a BS cause a WS to cheat". The health of the marriage is the responsibility of both spouses. Therefore it isn't the BS that causes the WS to cheat, but rather the state of the marriage, as you just said.

 

So basically the answer, based on what you said above, to the question of "Can a BS cause a WS to cheat" is "no" since you said it is about the health of the marriage being the cause.

 

So maybe the better way to put it is that the state of the marriage can cause someone to think cheating is the answer. Would you agree to that statement?

 

Stating a cause (have I said this before? ) does not assign blame.

 

It does if you are another poster here.

[woinlove]

Some use "to cause" to mean to be simply one influence, of which there may be several, while others use "to cause" to bring into existence the end result (which is in line with the dictionary meaning).

 

I think everyone will agree that there can be multiple influences on any particular decision a person makes and I think some think that someone who doesn't know about the affairs existence can not bring it into existence, while a few seem to think they can do that. I'm in the group which believes that the only people who can bring an affair into existence, and consequently be the cause of that affair existing, are the people who decide to have the affair. JMO.

[drifter777]

Many disorders are skillfully hidden. I think nearly everyone knows that. I would hope that your average lay person embarking on a R wouldn't be expected to have a degree in psychology and psychiatry.

 

I'm sure you are correct for many disorders however histrionic personality disorder is really not something one can hide very effectively. It's just too "in your face". People who marry someone like this are attracted to them because they are so sexy and always the life of the party and just plain exciting to be with. They are sure that the person will settle down when they marry, but a histrionic simply cannot tone their behavior down. It's who they are.

[nofool4u]

I believe in most situations the person who cheated is exactly the same person that the Bs married and never dreamed would cheat. An aspect of the WS's personality was overlooked or ignored, or something happened along the way to bring that personality trait to the surface.

 

Which coincides with what I said about character being a cause earlier on in this thread.

[woinlove]

Some WS cheat when the BS is severely ill. Say their spouse has cancer. For those who think a BS can cause a WS to cheat, do you think the BS may cause the infidelity in this case by being sick, or do you think the cancer itself causes the infidelity, or do you think the inability of the WS to deal with the critical illness and potential loss of their spouse causes the infidelity, or....?

 

I would say it is the latter, the WS is unable to deal with the situation in a more constructive and ethical way, and they decide to pursue a secret affair. The way I reason causes of affairs, it really doesn't matter if it is cancer, lack of sex, job loss, fear of aging... it all comes back to the WS and their own limitations and choices that causes the A.

[2sure]

I haven't read everything.

Saying A BS caused a WS to cheat...because they were mean or neglectful or withholding sex....

 

Is like saying to a spouse that Nags, gambles, or becomes fat..."You made me hit you".

[CantgetoveritNY]

Some WS cheat when the BS is severely ill. Say their spouse has cancer. For those who think a BS can cause a WS to cheat, do you think the BS may cause the infidelity in this case by being sick, or do you think the cancer itself causes the infidelity, or do you think the inability of the WS to deal with the critical illness and potential loss of their spouse causes the infidelity, or....?

 

I would say it is the latter, the WS is unable to deal with the situation in a more constructive and ethical way, and they decide to pursue a secret affair. The way I reason causes of affairs, it really doesn't matter if it is cancer, lack of sex, job loss, fear of aging... it all comes back to the WS and their own limitations and choices that causes the A.

 

One thing I hear a lot along these lines that strikes me as a bizarre reason to cheat is that the WH's wife is pregnant. What more inappropriate time to cheat and yet it seems to be not uncommon. I wonder, if they tell the OW, what the OW thinks about doing that to the pregnant BS. What the OW thinks about the kind of guy that would do that to his wife in that condition.

[2sure]

How many women have justified hitting their husbands because of something the husband said or did, and the woman got angry?

 

You're right. I hit my husband when I discovered the scope of his cheating. In fact, that is an understatement. Further, I felt he made me do it! I see your point, but really...

 

I've been hit. I've been cheated on. Sad to say. I'd rather be hit, I saw it coming you know? I didn't spend any time wondering if I was being abused or if I was crazy. Being hit, you know right away. Both abuse, one as horrible as the other.

[carhill]

That's a great example. At the moment of disclosure/discovery, a personal behavior occurred that was apparently uncharacteristic and completely tied to the moment and content of the interaction. Had the moment and interaction been different, would striking the spouse been a next action? Could it? Can it? Another person might have cried; another stood still in silence; another run out screaming. Would they have behaved in such manners had the disclosure/discovery not occurred? Could they? Can they?

 

This is not personal in any way. It's one of many great examples offered in this thread of how the process and timeline of action/effect/choice/action works.

 

Had you drawn your weapon and shot him dead, some could identify the act as justifiable/understandable, even perhaps sympathizing with your choice. Would you have just shot him dead while eating dinner without reason or provocation? Could you? Can you? Killing someone is pretty extreme. Many people consider it wrong. Some people feel the same about hitting, especially those who have been hit a lot. Still, people in real life and on this forum can sympathize and feel the action was 'justifiable' in this situation. Situational justification. Can it be applied here? Back to that 'can' thing again.

[BetrayedH]

I think your posts in this discussion have been right on target.

 

There seems to be a huge amount of folks in utter denial of even the possibility that the influences in a relationship, for good and bad, can flow both ways.

 

This coming from BSs who are absolutely destroyed by their WS's conduct.

 

Yet they disavow even the possibility that anything they did could ever negatively influence their WS?

 

Doesn't make sense other than as a defense mechanism.

 

WSs may have been "influenced" by external sources (I am really tired of the semantics game being played here) but ultimately made the decision all on their own to go f*ck someone else as the solution to their problems. The WS will go to great lengths to blame the external sources rather than looking inward at the decision. Asking a BS to assist the WS in looking outward instead of inward is the defense mechanism in question and the origin of this thread.

[BetrayedH]

How many women have justified hitting their husbands because of something the husband said or did, and the woman got angry?

 

And they would be wrong to assign the blame to anyone but themselves.

[carhill]

Cause, choice and responsibility are separate and discreet issues. The WS is responsible for their choices resultant to the causes. Identifying and working a cause does not in any way absolve the WS from the responsibility for their choice.

[JamesM]

Identifying a cause will help both the WS and the BS understand why the WS chose as he or she did.

[woinlove]

You're right. I hit my husband when I discovered the scope of his cheating. In fact, that is an understatement. Further, I felt he made me do it! I see your point, but really...

 

I've been hit. I've been cheated on. Sad to say. I'd rather be hit, I saw it coming you know? I didn't spend any time wondering if I was being abused or if I was crazy. Being hit, you know right away. Both abuse, one as horrible as the other.

 

The idea of acting in a moment of rage or uncontrolled emotions has come up in this thread. It is even recognized by law in most places. I think that is quite different that taking an action which includes identifying a willing AP and carrying on a deceptive affair. A very brief infidelity which is immediately confessed may come under the temporary uncontrolled emotions category, but I don't recall reading of such a case here. I recall one which started in a way that could be that, but then the person decided to hide it and deceive his W, so he choose to become deceitful, and then chose to extend it into an A.

 

I think an ongoing choice of dishonesty and deception cannot be excused by temporary rage.

[woinlove]

Cause, choice and responsibility are separate and discreet issues. The WS is responsible for their choices resultant to the causes. Identifying and working a cause does not in any way absolve the WS from the responsibility for their choice.

 

Typically they go hand in hand. You cause an accident and you are at fault. You cause a theft and you are charged. You cause a project to fail and you are fired. Several people may be the cause, in which case the share the blame or credit, depending on what they caused. If the damage is caused by the weather or by cancer, then no one is to blame because it is out of their control. Not sure why infidelity would be any different than anything else in this way. Usually you cause something and you get the credit or flack for it.

Edited December 19, 2012 by woinlove

[carhill]

Your family is hungry. You have no money. You choose to steal food. You get caught and are held responsible for your choice.

 

The hunger of the family and the poverty are the causes. The choice is stealing. The responsibility is for the choice.

 

We can go on and on regarding this, just as I did with our psychologist. Happy to continue.

[JamesM]

Typically they go hand in hand. You cause an accident and you are at fault.

 

Not necessarily. I can suddenly stop and turn. The guy behind me rear ends me. He is given the ticket. Truthfully, it was my abrupt stopping that caused the accident, but he is given the ticket for not paying attention. I am (rarely) at fault even though technically I am the cause.

 

You cause a theft and you are charged.

 

I can tell someone how I bought a rare gun and it is in my house. Someone overhears and breaks in and steals it. technically, if i had not mentioned the rifle, the person would not have stolen it. I gave that person a motive to steal the gun. I would of course never be charged. Yet I was the cause.

 

You cause a project to fail and you are fired.

 

Again, there are ways to cause a project to fail without actually being the one who did it. Perhaps I had a party at my house and the employees attended. One person became drunk and the next day made some stupid decisions that ruined the project. My party was the cause. Yet he made choices that ruined the project.

 

Several people may be the cause, in which case the share the blame or credit, depending on what they caused.

 

The root cause may never be discovered and the perp never charged. The true cause may not be what we think it is.

 

Usually you cause something and you get the credit or flack for it.

 

Yes, and yet we make choices all of the time in life that are based o n what someone else did. We get the credit or the blame for decisions we make that are motivated or caused by what someone else did. I can cause you to smile for the day by some kind acts and yet...I did not actually smile. You made the conscious effort to smile. You are asked why you are so happy, and yet I caused you to be happy. And I can cause you to be mad or sad the very same way.

 

Just another angle.

[woinlove]

Your family is hungry. You have no money. You choose to steal food. You get caught and are held responsible for your choice.

 

The hunger of the family and the poverty are the causes. The choice is stealing. The responsibility is for the choice.

 

We can go on and on regarding this, just as I did with our psychologist. Happy to continue.

 

If we are talking about countries where divorce is allowed and people have free will, then the analogy would be he stole instead of going to the food bank or some other legal means. Again, it was not the hunger and poverty that made him choose the illegal means over the legal means of feeding his family. That was just his excuse. Chances are he would steal under other circumstances as well, while many others under the same circumstances would choose the legal means.

 

I agree if one could come up with a situation where deciding to have an affair and deceiving one's spouse about that affair WAS the only way of surviving, then one could say the cause was the situation and it was a case of self-defence. The person would be blameless and the cause would be the situation. Much like harm done when necessary to protect oneself can be legal.

Edited December 19, 2012 by woinlove

[JamesM]

No, sometimes people make stupid decisions because of the desperate situation they are in. Hunger(as an example) can make someone respond in ways that they never dreamed possible. Anger as a response to a cause (such as discovering your spouse is cheating) can make us commit acts that we now think are abhorrent.

 

The fact that everyone would not give the same response to a cause does not make the cause not the cause.

[woinlove]

Not necessarily. I can suddenly stop and turn. The guy behind me rear ends me. He is given the ticket. Truthfully, it was my abrupt stopping that caused the accident, but he is given the ticket for not paying attention. I am (rarely) at fault even though technically I am the cause.

 

No, you didn't cause the accident. By law, we are required to drive so as to be able to stop under normal conditions. The other driver was following too closely at a speed that did not allow him to react to you stopping. He was at fault, and had he been driving as required by law, he would not have received a ticket, even if you stopped suddenly and turned. One could as easily say a drunk driver swerving and hitting another car would not have hit the car if the car was not there. The drunk driver caused the accident by not driving sober as required by law.

 

I can tell someone how I bought a rare gun and it is in my house. Someone overhears and breaks in and steals it. technically, if i had not mentioned the rifle, the person would not have stolen it. I gave that person a motive to steal the gun. I would of course never be charged. Yet I was the cause.

 

No you didn't give that person a motive. You gave him information, which is perfectly ethical and not in anyway hurtful or wrong. He gave himself a motive by wanting the gun and deciding he could steal it.

 

Again, there are ways to cause a project to fail without actually being the one who did it. Perhaps I had a party at my house and the employees attended. One person became drunk and the next day made some stupid decisions that ruined the project. My party was the cause. Yet he made choices that ruined the project.

 

No, your party was not the cause. The cause was the person deciding to become drunk the night before he needed to be operating at a high level. His own lack of priorities or stupidity caused him to ruin the project.

 

 

Yes, and yet we make choices all of the time in life that are based o n what someone else did. We get the credit or the blame for decisions we make that are motivated or caused by what someone else did. I can cause you to smile for the day by some kind acts and yet...I did not actually smile. You made the conscious effort to smile. You are asked why you are so happy, and yet I caused you to be happy. And I can cause you to be mad or sad the very same way.

 

Yes, you can cause me to smile, and even cause me to be sad or mad temporarily (I would likely choose not to hang on to those, as I'd prefer to be happy). But I can assure you that you cannot cause me to violate my values and behave in an unethical fashion over any extended period of time.

 

Responses in bold above.

 

James, we seem to have very different views on these things. My view comes from my personal perspective where I know that when I have behaved badly that I had a choice and I was the cause of and was responsible for my own bad choices. While I can be reactive momentarily (instantly respond poorly) over any period of time, I am aware of my own actions and choices. It adds a lot to my life to recognize that, and it feels true to me, so I am not going to start saying others caused my bad behavior. I don't think we will agree on this unless one of us changes.

 

To me, it makes all the difference that we are talking about dishonest, disloyal and hurtful behavior. I am happy to give others more credit than they deserve if we are talking about something good I did. I am happy to say they are the reason even if they were only one influence in me deciding to do something good. However, I have no inclination to give others more blame than they deserve when I do something bad. Who cares if they did it first? That is their problem, not mine. I always have a choice in how I respond, and I have learned that responding true to my own values is what makes me happier.

[nofool4u]

How many women have justified hitting their husbands because of something the husband said or did, and the woman got angry?

 

Doesn't matter how many. Its wrong and there is no justification.

 

Its clear to see what is going on with you, especially in this thread. "WOMEN" this, "WOMEN that". The misogyny is obvious, and you clearly have a problem with women.

[flattened]

When emotions are involved, logic goes out the window. I was really unhappy but I didn't really understand why. I had this sense that my marriage was not working. My wife and I are not the best communicators, so we didn't talk it through.

 

My wife was wrapped up in her job and the day-to-day activities in the house. She had no inclination to discuss the fact that we weren't really doing anything together anymore. She didn't even notice that I was depressed and unhappy.

 

I ended up involved with someone else, and that was the catalyst for me to understand how messed up my relationship with my wife had become. By then, of course, it was too late.

 

So, while my wife can't be a mind-reader, she certainly should have noticed that things were going off the rails. Even after I started discussing with her that I was really unhappy, and things weren't going well, she didn't clue in to how serious it was. She didn't make much effort to re-connect.

 

On the other hand, it's on me for what I did. Not making any excuses there, or pointing fingers at anyone else. All I can say is that I got into a place where I was completely lost and out of my depth emotionally, and, as luck would have it, someone turned up at just that moment.

 

That's my point - it's easy to criticize at an intellectual level, and when you're removed from the situation emotionally, but not so straightforward to function appropriately at the time.

[woinlove]

That's my point - it's easy to criticize at an intellectual level, and when you're removed from the situation emotionally, but not so straightforward to function appropriately at the time.

 

I can't tell if you are referring to yourself here or to your wife (or ex-wife). Did she not know how to communicate or did you not know how to or did both of you not know? Perhaps you are saying it wasn't easy for either one of you to communicate effectively.

 

On the topic of this thread, do you think your wife caused you to have an A and deceive her?

[buckeyeblue]

James - I sure hope that you are sitting on the jury when I am tried for killing my WH "because he had an affair". Good to know that I will have some support for my position that he "caused" his own death!!