Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[flattened]

Just to add here. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm hurting from what happened. Based on all I've read the last few months, obviously not in the same way the BS might hurt. But my whole world fell apart just the same, including my own view of myself.

 

All I'm trying to achieve, on this thread anyway, is increase the understanding of how things can go wrong. Because we're all human, even us ugly WS's.

[BetrayedH]

I appreciate your neutral tone and hopefully you'll forgive my angry one; you haven't caught me on a good day.

 

I get the point that you are trying to make - that it is complex/complicated and not just some evil decision that waywards make.

 

Frankly, I also don't think it is as simple as, point the finger. Sometimes it is. As Decorative would say, do some research on overbenefitted partners and in many cases it was the wayward. In some cases, I suppose there are "bad" people (narcissists and the like). Probably not many.

 

Then you have the run of the mill affairs which I believe are the vast majority. We had problems, blah, blah, blah and someone came along... To be brief, I don't much believe there are "bad" and "good" people in the world. There are good and bad decisions and we all make a combination of those over our lifetime. For what it is worth, this means that I don't consider my wife (or you) to be evil and it's not as simple as pointing my finger and saying, bad wayward.

 

I certainly think there is merit to digging deeper than that. And I understand how a crappy life, marriage, or spouse can make a person feel more vulnerable to an affair. Just one read of, Not Just Friends, was very enlightening to see that there are patterns of behavior and few of them are linked to a wayward having the intent of going out and hurting someone. Again, they aren't evil.

 

But ultimately they made a very poor decision (many times a LONG list of very conscious choices) and this is something that happens internally and entirely within the wayward.

 

Some people have awful marriages/spouses yet they never cheat. Some have great spouses by their own admission and they cheat anyway. This would tell me that it's not the external forces that are the necessary ingredient to cause cheating. In fact, whether the marriage is good or bad, the necessary ingredient to get to cheating is a poor character decision. The cheating doesn't happen without it.

 

This thread originated because a wayward posited to a BS that the 'causation' of the cheating was the marriage/spouse. I find that both disingenuous and a HUGE distraction from what really needs to be looked at, which is what within the wayward allowed them to make such a destructive, unhealthy, and unethical choice that they, themselves, would likely say violated their own standards. If you don't like the terms, blame or blameshifting, I can get that. The problem is that it shifts the conversation/discussion/thinking away from where it needs to be (the waywards broken internal decision-making process) and places it on the betrayed spouse (which I also think is kinda insulting).

 

What needs to be analyzed is why a wayward decided to cheat. The external variables could have been up, down, diagonal or sideways but the decision is theirs and theirs alone. Your spouse didn't go into your head and cause you to do it. Typical reasons I have seen over time are: an excessive need for external validation, an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, or extreme conflict avoidance.

 

If a wayward digs deep enough to determine their "why," both they and the BS may be able to believe that enough introspection has been done to prevent a reoccurence. In the nuclear fallout of an affair, this needs to be the focus. If the wayward instead talks about the BS or the marriage, they simply don't "get it."

 

Want to discuss marital problems, too? In the case of a couple trying to reconcile, sure, both partners need to be in with both feet. But I rarely (if ever?) see a BS that refuses to go to MC following a Dday or to take ownership of what they could have done better in the marriage. We'll take 50% of the responsibility for the state of the marriage (if there actually was such a problem) but we take 0% responsibility for the decision to cheat; the wayward made that choice all on their own and in the wake of an affair, you better expect it's going to be THE thing to be dealt with before reconciliation is even on the table. Saying a BS caused a WS to cheat should be a non-starter because it's not even remotely remorseful.

 

So the question becomes, now that the WS has made some poor decisions, what will you do now? Make a good decision and take ownership of the poor ones or deflect the cause/discussion/blame to somewhere else. Making good decisions now (and being introspective about old poor ones) can lead to forgiveness in my book because I don't think waywards are inherently bad. But just continuing wayward thinking buys nothing with me whatsoever.

[Furious]

BH

 

I wish there was a brilliant button instead of a like button.

 

Your post made me cry, but in good way. Thank you for expressing such a complicated issue so eloquently.

[Spark1111]

BH

 

I wish there was a brilliant button instead of a like button.

 

Your post made me cry, but in good way. Thank you for expressing such a complicated issue so eloquently.

 

Me too! Bravo!

[BetrayedH]

My kids are highly irritated at me taking so much time to type it! They're right, of course. Off to dinner and shopping. Ho, ho, ho.

 

(Thank you, by the way).

[Decorative]

Perfectly stated, BH. perfectly.

[aed]

Cheating happens when you meet someone that you find attractive (this happens allot!) and you are open for it (this happens not so much )! Al the other things are excusses IMO.

[waterwoman]

Just to add here. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm hurting from what happened. Based on all I've read the last few months, obviously not in the same way the BS might hurt. But my whole world fell apart just the same, including my own view of myself.

 

All I'm trying to achieve, on this thread anyway, is increase the understanding of how things can go wrong. Because we're all human, even us ugly WS's.

 

You're not ugly. My H isn't ugly. Things happen that you don't mean to happen. As you say we are all human. And I can totally sympathise with how your actions have changed your view of myself. H's affair changed my view of myself - I am now that sad character of comedy 'The Betrayed Wife', the poor old cow that wasn't good enough for her H, the tragic loyal figure that takes back a cheater! Not nice, at all.

 

I don't think that anyone on this thread has said it's simply. We have all said that marriages are about give and take and when no-one is giving as much as they should infidelity becomes more likely. But most say that that isn't an excuse.

 

I took major issue with you blaming your wife for not recognising your depression. It's not easy to deal with. If she never experienced it before she won't know it's anything more than stress and tiredness. And I am sure she asked and you said 'it's nothing'. Depression is an illness, it needs to be treated as such - unless your w is a doctor I don't see she could do a great deal. I have been depressed more or less all of my adult life. If anyone should recognise depression it should be him! But he didn't - or didn't care enough at the time as he was on the verge of any affair. Bast*rd!!!!! And I have to say that most of the time when I am really depressed, starting any sort of new relationship would be way beyond me - keeping breathing is enough of a challenge.

 

Have you seen a doctor about your depression? It's a good starting point. Not everyone likes taking meds but they can help to stablise you.

[flattened]

I took major issue with you blaming your wife for not recognising your depression.

 

Just to clarify, FWIW. I wasn't depressed then. I won't argue that I'm depressed now. What I am saying is that things went bad in our marriage, it made me really unhappy, and that led to me getting involved with someone. I'm not blaming my wife for anything other than her contribution to our marriage getting into a bad state. And before you jump on me for that, my wife has her fair share of complaints about me, so obviously I contributed to that too.

 

I really believe that that's how most affairs start. Not in happy marriages. And the state of the marriage is a significant factor. And you can't fix the problem by saying it's the poor character of the WS, and if he just goes and works on himself and fixes himself, everything will be wonderful. Because the elephant in the room is that the marriage was in a bad state, and it has to get fixed by both parties at the same time as everything else.

 

What I hear here, and I'm trying to put a different view on it, because I'm on the other side of the fence to most here, is that 100% of the blame of having an affair is on the WS, and so 100% of the effort to fix things afterwards has to be on the WS, up to the point where the BS is satisfied that it's worth trying to work on the marriage. I just don't believe that. At least some of the blame is on the state of the marriage in the first place, and that has to be worked on at the same time as everything else.

 

Of course you all don't have to agree. So be it.

[CantgetoveritNY]

 

I really believe that that's how most affairs start. Not in happy marriages.

 

What I hear here, and I'm trying to put a different view on it, because I'm on the other side of the fence to most here, is that 100% of the blame of having an affair is on the WS, and so 100% of the effort to fix things afterwards has to be on the WS, up to the point where the BS is satisfied that it's worth trying to work on the marriage. I just don't believe that. At least some of the blame is on the state of the marriage in the first place, and that has to be worked on at the same time as everything else.

 

 

Your point about "not in happy marriages" is just not true. It is well documented that happily married people are just as susceptible to being drawn into affairs as anyone else.

 

I'm interested in seeing discussion on your second point. My marriage was troubled. My WS is like you, wanting to fix the marriage at the same time we deal with the affair. I'm thinking I need to see changes in her before I commit to even wanting to stay married. Why would I want to work on a marriage with someone that thinks cheating and lying to and severely damaging your closest partner is ok if there is something they are unhappy about in your partnership. It seems like the starting point is getting to trust that person that did that before you can begin to repair the rest of the relationship. I want to know the lying and cheating is over first before we talk about the rest of the problems. That seems fundemental. But I'm new to this. Maybe others know more.

[waterwoman]

Just to clarify, FWIW. I wasn't depressed then. I won't argue that I'm depressed now. What I am saying is that things went bad in our marriage, it made me really unhappy, and that led to me getting involved with someone. I'm not blaming my wife for anything other than her contribution to our marriage getting into a bad state. And before you jump on me for that, my wife has her fair share of complaints about me, so obviously I contributed to that too.

 

I really believe that that's how most affairs start. Not in happy marriages. And the state of the marriage is a significant factor. And you can't fix the problem by saying it's the poor character of the WS, and if he just goes and works on himself and fixes himself, everything will be wonderful. Because the elephant in the room is that the marriage was in a bad state, and it has to get fixed by both parties at the same time as everything else.

 

What I hear here, and I'm trying to put a different view on it, because I'm on the other side of the fence to most here, is that 100% of the blame of having an affair is on the WS, and so 100% of the effort to fix things afterwards has to be on the WS, up to the point where the BS is satisfied that it's worth trying to work on the marriage. I just don't believe that. At least some of the blame is on the state of the marriage in the first place, and that has to be worked on at the same time as everything else.

 

Of course you all don't have to agree. So be it.

 

I don't disagree. I haven't really seen anyone else doing so either. If there is a weak marriage infidelity is more likely. No **** sherlock :) I have admitted many time to H that I was partly to blame for the state of the marriage. Why wouldn't I? I'm not blind or stupid. And I am working on my part of that as well as I can. But unless you have been cheated on you cannot fathom the pain - it is unbearable at times - and trying to fix the marriage without healing the pain of the infidelity first it like trying to do major reconstructive surgery on one leg while the other leg has been severed at the knee and is pumping blood like a geyser. The one thing has to be fixed first.

[drifter777]

...

 

What I hear here, and I'm trying to put a different view on it, because I'm on the other side of the fence to most here, is that 100% of the blame of having an affair is on the WS, and so 100% of the effort to fix things afterwards has to be on the WS, up to the point where the BS is satisfied that it's worth trying to work on the marriage.

 

I've never seen a BS post anything like this - ever. If they did the BS's would come out of the woodwork to roast them and point out that reconciliation is impossible unless BOTH parties are willing to do a lot of hard work.

 

For the most part you are just stating the obvious like "a person is more likely to cheat if they are in a bad marriage". Your conclusion that cheating is a viable response to being in a bad marriage is where I have a problem. I think confronting your spouse and demanding that you work to fix your marriage or call it quits is a much healthier response and will end up being a much better way to resolve the situation. I acknowledge that this is a much harder path to take then cheating, but the right path usually is more difficult.

[flattened]

I've never seen a BS post anything like this - ever. If they did the BS's would come out of the woodwork to roast them and point out that reconciliation is impossible unless BOTH parties are willing to do a lot of hard work.

 

For the most part you are just stating the obvious like "a person is more likely to cheat if they are in a bad marriage". Your conclusion that cheating is a viable response to being in a bad marriage is where I have a problem. I think confronting your spouse and demanding that you work to fix your marriage or call it quits is a much healthier response and will end up being a much better way to resolve the situation. I acknowledge that this is a much harder path to take then cheating, but the right path usually is more difficult.

 

Just to comment on this stuff: Maybe you see things differently because of your position, but everything I've read on this thread and elsewhere here at LS (and I can tell you I've done a lot of reading the last several months), says exactly that - the WS is 100% responsible for fixing what they did wrong before the BS will even begin to contemplate whether to try reconcile.

 

For the most part I am stating the obvious, yes. I'm not sure where I stated that having an affair is a good idea or a viable response. Trust me, I will bear the scars for the rest of my life for that decision. What I have been stating is that given the right environment and the right circumstances, things can spiral out of control. Let's just agree to disagree there.

 

I don't know if this is going completely off-topic, but I guess someone will fix it if it is. In response to Cant and WW - of course I can only respond from my side of the fence, but I'm not stupid or lacking in empathy - I understand the pain you feel. I got a taste myself - I really really cared for the OW, I was willing to leave my marriage for her. Whatever motivated her, and I still can't think badly of her, she certainly didn't care for me. I was a good ego boost for her, and once she got what she needed, she moved on. I got the nuclear option - I wrecked everything and everybody dear to me.

 

That being said, here's where I am. I tried really hard in my marriage before. I did work at trying to make it good. My wife was certainly pretty happy with me and my efforts - you'll just have to take my word for that (if you put any faith in the word of a WS :-)

 

But it wasn't very good for me. Not going to go over that again. Bottom line is, the whole downward spiral of my marriage, the whole stress of the affair (and let me say, looking back, I got very little pleasure out of it), and the fallout from the ending and the introspection to go with it has worn me down. To have my wife say you have to do a whole lot work to regain my trust before I'll even start to work on the marital issues, and maybe even then I won't, is just too much. All I can come up with is, ok, I just can't do it, we're done.

 

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm not looking to start an argument here. I'm just stating what it looks like from this side. Of course, this is just my story. I've read how BS feel that the WS got off scot free, or had a bundle of fun while the spouse was holding down the fort at home. It's not always like that. I will certainly prefer to live the rest of my life alone in a dingy basement than ever go through that experience again.

 

I hope this contributes something to the discussion. Mostly, I know that when an affair happens, there's unbelievable hurt all around. It sucks. I hate it, and myself for that.

[waterwoman]

Well clearly you see your marriage as over and you care more for your is than your wife. In which case most of this discussion is redundant. For those of us who are reconciling it's worth making the effort. H apperas to think so anyway.

[Spark1111]

I wish you courage....and peace.

[BetrayedH]

Christmas shopping reminds you of your ex?

 

Wasn't sure how to spell it correctly. Is it hoe, hoe, hoe?

[Spark1111]

Wasn't sure how to spell it correctly. Is it hoe, hoe, hoe?

 

No, you spelled it correctly the first time.

[BetrayedH]

Since my ex-wife isn't here, I suspect that cheap shot was for my "benefit." Happy holidays to you, too, Duck.

[flattened]

I wish you courage....and peace.

 

Thanks. Courage I hope I find. Peace - seems unlikely.

[CantgetoveritNY]

 

the fallout from the ending and the introspection to go with it has worn me down. To have my wife say you have to do a whole lot work to regain my trust before I'll even start to work on the marital issues, and maybe even then I won't, is just too much. All I can come up with is, ok, I just can't do it, we're done.

 

 

 

I see what you mean. You were not that happy before the A so now you don't have motivation to do the heavy lifting needed. I still don't think the answer is to expect the BS to reconcile without that. Better to just agree the relationship is broken beyond repair and move on.

[woinlove]

I really really cared for the OW, I was willing to leave my marriage for her. Whatever motivated her, and I still can't think badly of her, she certainly didn't care for me.

 

To have my wife say you have to do a whole lot work to regain my trust before I'll even start to work on the marital issues, and maybe even then I won't, is just too much. All I can come up with is, ok, I just can't do it, we're done.

 

From the above statements, it really seems like the right decision to end your M. A good M takes commitment and desire, and that seems to be lacking. I hope all of you heal and that you learn enough from this experience to make less painful choices in the future. Good luck.

[BetrayedH]

I see what you mean. You were not that happy before the A so now you don't have motivation to do the heavy lifting needed. I still don't think the answer is to expect the BS to reconcile without that. Better to just agree the relationship is broken beyond repair and move on.

 

Conisdering the cowardice and selfishness it takes to have an affair, I sure would like to see waywards be willing to step up and do the hard work of helping their spouse heal and to put their own concerns on the backburner. Fsiling to do so really just seem to add insult to the injury.

 

Flattened, I do hope that you heal. Your situation is just too close to my own. My wife cheated and wasn't willing to repair the damage; she divorced me. She effectively just ran from the problems that she created and is still doing so. It's hard for me to empathize but I do also hope you find peace. Affairs typically do hurt all corners of the triangle and I don't wish that hurt on anyone.

[flattened]

To stay mildly on topic, the toll that an affair takes on people extends to the WS too. I like to think that I'm not a coward and I'm not running away from things, but who knows, maybe that's really what I am.

 

I've tried to go back to being the the caring, considerate spouse etc. I think I really do my bit in sharing the cares and day-to-day activities and chores in the household. But getting back to loving just seems beyond me. The irony is that I feel like I'm cheating when I hold my wife and try to be affectionate. Because my heart is not in it. Because I know what I did. Because what was wrong before is still wrong. I hope anything I say here helps someone else understand how to reconcile, forgive, move on, etc, because it's not working for me.

 

I find that I all I can do now is say sorry to everyone. Pathetic as that is.

[CantgetoveritNY]

To stay mildly on topic, the toll that an affair takes on people extends to the WS too. I like to think that I'm not a coward and I'm not running away from things, but who knows, maybe that's really what I am.

 

I've tried to go back to being the the caring, considerate spouse etc. I think I really do my bit in sharing the cares and day-to-day activities and chores in the household. But getting back to loving just seems beyond me. The irony is that I feel like I'm cheating when I hold my wife and try to be affectionate. Because my heart is not in it. Because I know what I did. Because what was wrong before is still wrong. I hope anything I say here helps someone else understand how to reconcile, forgive, move on, etc, because it's not working for me.

 

I find that I all I can do now is say sorry to everyone. Pathetic as that is.

 

Flattened - to have an exit affair and abandon your partner is cowardly in the extreme. Like the captain of the ship sailing off in the life boat while the crew drowns. But you did not do that. You thought about it but pulled back.

 

I see you are almost as new here as me. How long since you started trying to rekindle affection? My wife tried the exit affair too. When she could not go through with it, for whatever reason, she ended up back with me. The first few months she said all the right things and was NC with her OM. But I could tell her heart was not in it. I waited. I had heard that over time and with both NC and the desire to reconcile, that eventually her heart would return. It did. Our D day was mid July. Not until Mid November did I see real concrete evidence that her heart was beginning to return to me. It is still very much "baby steps" and the end result is far from certain. So be patient with yourself and hope you BS is too.

 

Anyone can fall in love with anyone. You fell in love with your AP who did dot deserve you. You fell in love with your BS before. If you give it time and if she gives you the chance, you could fall in love with her again. If you want. If you don't want that, don't cheat, just move on.

 

If my wife wanted to move on I'd be ok with that. I just don't want her to do that by way of an exit affair. I'm willing to give her a chance with to regaing my trust but if she'd rather move on I hope she'd just tell me. Not gaslight me. I don't know if I should believe my own eyes when I see signs that she is trying to win me back. I sure would be devastated if I trusted these signs and found out it was more deciete. What do you think? Should I be vulnerable and trust her?

[flattened]

Flattened - to have an exit affair and abandon your partner is cowardly in the extreme. Like the captain of the ship sailing off in the life boat while the crew drowns. But you did not do that. You thought about it but pulled back.

 

Not sure that it started as an exit affair. But the fact of falling in love with someone else has really mucked with my emotions. Firstly, it pointed out much more clearly what was wrong in my marriage. Secondly, I have no idea how I can get to being "honestly" in love with my wife. This seems crazy for someone who cheated, but it really feels dishonest to me to go back to my wife after having loved someone else. I can't make any sense of it.

 

I see you are almost as new here as me. How long since you started trying to rekindle affection?

 

Affair ended in Aug. NC is impossible. I work with the person. We're all in one big space with cubes (hi-tech org). Had to work closely on a project through the fall. Bit of karma there, having to face someone everyday who clearly moved on without much trouble... Been looking for another job, but it's not super easy at the moment, and I'm not exactly in the kind of emotional state that makes a good impression on prospective employers. More karma I suppose.

 

If you don't want that, don't cheat, just move on.

 

Only good that came from this - I'd sooner poke my eyes out with burning irons than go through this whole mess again.

 

I don't know if I should believe my own eyes when I see signs that she is trying to win me back. I sure would be devastated if I trusted these signs and found out it was more deciete. What do you think? Should I be vulnerable and trust her?

 

Everyone is different, I guess. I once prided myself on being completely and totally trustworthy. The most hurtful thing to me is that people I care about (my wife obviously, love or no love, I care about her) don't have trust in me anymore. I can't see that I'll ever get over that, even if my wife and others do. I'm a pretty private person, so having to be open and bare everything all the time is really hard. I would like to be able to say, "this will never happen again, so just trust me". But obviously that doesn't work.

 

I suppose I'm not the right person to say whether you should be vulnerable again or not. But really, what's the point of having a loving relationship with someone if you don't make yourself vulnerable to them? If you can't go there, I guess there's not much point in continuing the relationship.

 

Maybe the fact that it took her a long time to have her heart in it is the best sign. She's trying to be honest about where she's at. I think that's what's happening with me. I just can't pretend (lie?) to my wife that everything is cool and I'm 100% committed to do what it takes to make it right. I just don't want to lie about anything. It's better to be alone than go there.

 

Hope that helps, makes sense, whatever. Right now I'd be happy for the earth to open and swallow me up.