Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[woinlove]

You know, it's interesting that this has been brought up because I've been analyzing my own RA and trying to determine my thoughts about it in relation to this question. I haven't commented on it because I want to be honest, not argumentative for an argument's sake.

 

Over time, I have assumed (internally) much more responsibility for my decision to have my own "balance" affair. Some may use words like character flaw, lack of character, or poor character. The word that seems to resonate with me is, broken. I think most people would say that cheating goes against their own standards. I think a person that violates their own standards is broken in a sense. Some are perhaps inherently broken since childhood. Some suffer a trauma. I suppose there are a myriad of examples. As for me, I was most certainly broken about six times over.

 

At the time, I had every rationalization in the book for having my own affair. In the end, none of them justify the decision I made. I, too, had an obligation to fix the marriage or leave it. In some bizarre fashion, I determined that having an affair was the best decision to fix my marriage - to get over it.

 

Upon reflection, I don't think my wife's cheating caused me to cheat. I think my own broken thought processes allowed me to make my own decision to do so. I made that decision on my own. I regret it and I own it. At the time? Not so much. I blamed her. She blamed herself. But at the end of the day, I know that I was the only one in charge of that decision. No one made it for me. No one caused me to make it. I used my own broken thinking to do somethig against my own values and it's no one's fault but my own.

 

Certainly, there can be contributing factors that we choose to weigh in the decision. We can have a bad marriage or a bad spouse. But these alone are clearly not enough to cause a person to cheat because we see people stay faithful in those scenarios all the time. We also see people that clearly did NOT cause their spouse to cheat, yet their spouse cheated anyway. And in all of these cases of "bad marriages," the BS was in the same marriage yet did not cheat. There must be another variable. What is clear as a necessary ingredient to cheating is a person broken enough (or with poor enough character, as some might say) to make such a decision. A healthy person decides not to cheat despite external influences; a broken person may decide to cheat even in the absence of such stressors. Ultimately, it is on the person making the decision to make the healthy one. If they don't, they can blame no one but themselves.

 

I think shifting the blame to the external stressors is simply an attempt to rationalize our broken decisions. It helps us to deflect the blame elsewhere. Again, I see it as blameshifting. I won't do it anymore and I wish other waywards would stop doing it, too. Regardless of external factors, the power was within us to make a healthier decision and we chose not to do so. My BS didn't cause me to cheat and neither did anyone else's.

 

A very moving post, BH. A lot is to be gained personally when one realizes the power for our own choices was, and is, within our own control.

 

The common factor for all WS is the willingness to choose to behave in such a way so as to have an A.

[BetrayedH]

BH says he had a revenge affair because he was "broken."

 

Who broke him?

 

My wife broke me. Doesn't absolve me of my choice to have an affair.

 

Duck, you're an angry guy. I suspect you believe your wife caused this condition. At what point is your wife no longer going to be responsible for that? When do you need to take ownership of your response? When does she stop being the cause of it? 5 years? 10? The rest of your life?

[JamesM]

Good morning, class!

 

Today's Word for the Day is:

 

CAUSE

 

Let us look at the definition and synonym that would be applicable in the situation we have here.

 

Definition of CAUSE

 

1

a : a reason for an action or condition : motive

b : something that brings about an effect or a result

c : a person or thing that is the occasion of an action or state; especially : an agent that brings something about

d : sufficient reason <discharged for cause>

 

2

a : a ground of legal action

b : case

 

3

: a matter or question to be decided

 

4

a : a principle or movement militantly defended or supported

b : a charitable undertaking <for a good cause>

Cause - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

Look at #1 the letter A. Note how cause can be used as another word for motive or reason.

 

Personally, THAT is how I have always defined it when we discuss how a BS can cause (or provide a cause) for a WS to cheat. The BS cannot directly make the decision for the WS, but he or she can certainly provide the motive for the person to cheat.

 

No, not all persons when given the motive will cheat, but anybody in a weakened emotional state is as capable as the next to choose to cheat. Just as some will choose a revenge affair out of anger at the WS who cheated, so an affair can be started because of seemingly impossibly unsolvable problems in a marriage. While we may not think we actually provided a reason for the affair, we certainly may have. The person we love despite the current anger and frustration may truly deep down not want an affair, but as vulnerable as he or she is at the time, the affair temptation was too strong to resist.

 

And do we want the person we love to be in a position where we have provided a motive to cheat?

 

Neither do I.

 

Can we look back at many situations where the WS was emotionally weakened by circumstances that provided a motive or reason or cause to choose an affair over his or her marriage, despite the fact that he or she was not one who we would suspect of cheating?

 

Quite possibly. Even though I have not chosen an affair nor has my wife, I can see how we may have had times that one would have seemed very attractive if the temptation was presented.

 

Enough said.

 

Thank you.

 

Class dismissed.

[JamesM]

So the lack of sex didn't "cause" you to have an A because you have integrity. So it doesn't take JUST that. It also takes a lack of integrity AKA character. Therefore, no - NOT caused by the BS.

 

Granted...it DOES take something else, and it may be a momentary lapse in character, but I would not say that it takes a character flaw which is only present in some people. I would still contend that it can be any one of us if emotionally weakened or vulnerable to one. There are times that we all have the temptation of an affair in front of us, but it isn't even attractive. Yet who are we to say that under the "right" circumstances, we might make the same stupid choice that others have made? We can't.

 

Gotcha.

 

Yes in a sense...you did. And you made me laugh when I read it.

 

P.S. Congratulations on your progress. I'm VERY happy for you!

 

Thank you. And I am still concerned it is a blip and am not thinking that we will live happily ever after. Enjoying the moments and working to keep it. But that will be another thread one day.

[JamesM]

Well, I am very relieved and happy to hear this James. I'm glad things are better in your marriage.

 

Thank you! We have both been happier too...weird how that is.

 

Since you understand a lot about being in the position of a man in sexless marriage, but have avoided the temptation of an affair, then why don't you use your powers for good instead of for, um, evil? I mean this kindly, of course!

 

Anything you say...I take kindly. In this thread, I am not defending an affair. I am simply explaining how an affair can be started. I think that too many times we blame ONLY the WS and then we are surprised when either we ourselves are in an affair or we see our spouse in an affair. We all MUST look at our marriage as strong but yet as very fragile. We must continually work to keep it strong and treat our spouse as an important part of our lives. As one who took my wife for granted many times, I can certainly see how I may have been to blame for some of our sexlessness.

 

And so I am trying to explain how we all contribute to the state of our marriage...and hence the possibility that the temptation of an affair is very attractive to our spouse. We should put up boundaries for ourselves and do our best to help our spouses feel loved.

 

NO, we cannot make the choice for our spouses, nor can we prevent the possibility of him or her choosing an affair. However, I believe that we do have some "say" and "power" in what our spouse may decide. And yes, if my wife were in an affair and I found out today, I would still say that while SHE made the decision, it was our state of marriage that made this affair more attractive. In order for reconciliation to happen, we would need to fix not only her AND me, but also US.

 

Perhaps use your experience with these types of situations to warn people away from an affair (yes, we have those types of posters here from time to time) or by trying to get someone to stop their affair? Particularly those who are in sexless marriages?

 

I have done that even when trying to show how I understand why they cheated. I think I CAN give a better answer to them than a BS who is still bitter and angry or who is misplacing some of his or her anger on the OP who may be a WS.

 

Honestly, I'm not telling you how to post. It's just that you're really good at explaining yourself but it seems like you're kinda defending cheating spouses sometimes!

 

You may tell me how to post...and I may even listen.

 

And you are right...I do defend cheating spouses sometimes. Defending them does not mean I think they are right. I defend them because I understand them.

 

Your posts are more balanced than many and come from a great position of one who has been betrayed. I try to also be balanced and yet show more understanding than some to the WS because I have been where many of them have been. I understand why they may have been motivated to do something that at one point they felt was abhorrent. And I try to point out how they might come back from that stupid decision and make their life better.

 

I try and hopefully may succeed at times even.

[woinlove]

My wife broke me. Doesn't absolve me of my choice to have an affair.

 

Duck, you're an angry guy. I suspect you believe your wife caused this condition. At what point is your wife no longer going to be responsible for that? When do you need to take ownership of your response? When does she stop being the cause of it? 5 years? 10? The rest of your life?

 

I think this is important. When we recognize an internal cause for our actions, we can accept that for a lifetime, having learned from it, and, if we are motivated, doing the work necessary to change, so that we can trust ourselves not to repeat the behavior.

 

If we think another person caused our behavior and we don't budge from that "explanation", then we would always be susceptible to another person causing such behavior in us again. Actually, I think this happens quite often to people who cheat. They may change partners and, yet, go on to cheat again.

 

To put the cause on another person is giving up a lot of power and control over ourselves.

[waterwoman]

 

And do we want the person we love to be in a position where we have provided a motive to cheat?

 

 

No! never in a million years. Thing is if the sex was an issue in our marriage (H denies anything I did was to blame - I keep trying to 'own my ****' as someone delightfully put it yesterday, but he keeps grabbing it off me and saying it's his, and sometimes it doesn't turn out to be **** at all - just a wrinkled up apple core someone left behind the sofa) - anyway I digress..... if sex was an issue you can't simply look at it as simply as:

 

1. I deny him sex (well once a week isn't exactly denial)

2. He has an affair because his manly needs aren't being attended to

 

You need to look further back. Why am I 'denying him sex'? Well anti-depressants tend to make you less than frisky in the bedroom. I was also hitting the menopause. I was also permanently pissed off with his utter inability to take responsbility for things around the home, and feeling like a skivvy.

 

And further back, why was he so helpless when it comes to doing things around the house? Perhaps he felt a bit emasculated being married to a fixer, a coper, someone who didn't NEED him all the time. And who felt a little pushed out by our children (note OUR children, not MY children). And who had a crappy upbrining with an absent father.

 

Who knows.... point is you cannot trace the beginnings of problems like these.

 

And to paraphrase what i quoted, he might perhaps have thought "do I want the person I love to be in a position where she doesn't want to have sex ".

 

And IF it was that bad (and beleive me it was at times) why didn't I turn to someone else to supply the love and tenderness I felt I was missing. It would have been perfectly possible.

 

Nothng but nothing in a relationship is a simple as A causes B.

 

I KNOW things were bad. I sometimes fantasised about him leaving but I wanted it acheived without any pain for anyone.... But neither of us were blameless - a lacklustre sex-life is no more a 'cause' for infidelity than the issues I had. Or the other issues he had. Somewhere the buck has to stop and the buck for the affair has to stop squarely with the WS IMO

[woinlove]

A lot of the posts that are arguing that a BS can cause a WS to cheat, focus on things such as lack of sex and/or affection. However, that still doesn't address why the WS chooses to lie and deceive. In another thread, a WS also mentions lack of sex in his M but also says he and his W agreed to tell each other if they were unhappy and instead of doing that he had an A. Can a BS make the WS break their promise to be honest?

 

For those who think a BS can cause a WS to cheat, how do you think they cause the lies and deception? What stops them from telling their spouse they are unhappy and want to or will pursue a relationship outside of the M?

 

To me, the unethical part of an A is the deception and betrayal in an M where the BS is led to believe they have a monogamous M. If everything if out in the open, even if one spouse doesn't like the fact that the other spouse is going outside the M, at least the spouse knows and can try to change things or divorce. I don't think the posts which put the cause on the BS address how the BS makes the WS act in this unethical way.

[JamesM]

A lot of the posts that are arguing that a BS can cause a WS to cheat, focus on things such as lack of sex and/or affection. However, that still doesn't address why the WS chooses to lie and deceive. In another thread, a WS also mentions lack of sex in his M but also says he and his W agreed to tell each other if they were unhappy and instead of doing that he had an A. Can a BS make the WS break their promise to be honest?

 

 

You missed my class on the definition of cause.

 

Cause does not only mean make. We can provide a motive while not making someone do something. We cannot make anyone do anything except by force, but we can provide a motive.

 

Since sex IS the reason most often given....we can "starve" someone sexually so that when sex elsewhere is presented to them, the "hunger" that he or she has overwhelms his or her mind and the wrong choice is made. We can "starve" someone emotionally so that when a close friendship with boundaries becomes closer than it should, the wrong choice is made.

 

We CANNOT choose for our spouses, but we can emotionally weaken them so that a stupid decision is made and what was once unthinkable now becomes perfectly "rational."

 

For those who think a BS can cause a WS to cheat, how do you think they cause the lies and deception? What stops them from telling their spouse they are unhappy and want to or will pursue a relationship outside of the M?

 

Cheating is wrong. It is composed of lies and deception. No one can make someone else choose deception and lies over honesty and faithfulness. What stops them? One immediate thought comes to mind...If we appear emotionally unavailable or closed to conversation, then someone else may fill that void and the communication that was once promised becomes very difficult while secrecy becomes easy.

 

To me, the unethical part of an A is the deception and betrayal in an M where the BS is led to believe they have a monogamous M. If everything if out in the open, even if one spouse doesn't like the fact that the other spouse is going outside the M, at least the spouse knows and can try to change things or divorce.

 

I agree...as would most who have cheated and have seen what destruction they did. However, at the time, this is not on the mind of the cheater.

 

I don't think the posts which put the cause on the BS stress how the BS makes the WS act in this unethical way.

 

This thread is not about how the WS chooses, but if the BS can actually provide a reason or motive for the WS to choose.

 

I think they can in many cases, but certainly not in all. I think the BS is not helpless in his or her marriage, but certainly cannot control the spouses. I believe that the motive of a bad marriage (ie sexlessness, closed communication lines, emotionally unavailable, separate lives) can lead a person to choose an affair. This does NOT make it right or good. This does not mean that the WS has no responsibility or blame for his or her CHOICES. In fact, he has all of the responsibility for his choices and should be held accountable. Yet we cannot avoid the fact that it is entirely possible...even probable... that without the motive or reason, he or she would never have chosen that affair.

[JamesM]

 

Nothng but nothing in a relationship is a simple as A causes B.

 

 

And that we agree on. For every situation, there are many possible choices.

 

But we should be able to agree that many of our choices in life are based on the situation.

 

It could be a combination of factors, or it could be just one that causes us to decide as we do.

 

Nothing in life is as simple as saying that A causes B. And yet we cannot deny that A certainly can provide a reason for B to happen.

[woinlove]

If we appear emotionally unavailable or closed to conversation, then someone else may fill that void and the communication that was once promised becomes very difficult while secrecy becomes easy.

 

Perhaps this is the big difference that creates the gulf in our views. I can't imagine it ever becoming easy to deceive my spouse. In 25 years of M and several serious Rs before M, I have not always been a great partner, but the lying and deception involved in an A is not something I have ever been capable of and I don't expect to become capable of. I think one is honest as much for oneself as for one's partner. It feels better to be honest.

 

From stories on LS, I think even many WS find the lies difficult - looking into their spouses eyes and keeping up the deception. Others, of course, do find it easy. In the end, these are the differences that can cause someone to cheat and once they understand that, they can work to make it much less likely they will cheat, independent of what their spouse does or does not do.

[waterwoman]

So the question, then, that many are focusing on is can someone cause their partner to want sex from another person. The answer would be yes. BUT - in order for it to be an A, there has to be sneaking and lying. Right? So the secondary question would then be can a person cause their partner to lie to them. Not no but HELL no!

 

Quite. That was H's undoing. He really struggled to tell lies to me. In fact the first time I seriously suspected his affair and asked him, he caved, admitted it and went NC. His lies were of omission - lies nonetheless of course - he couldn't stand in front of me and actually tell me words that weren't true.

[JamesM]

Then explain a cheater who tells everyone his/her spouse is perfect, but they cheat anyway.

 

When someone does to decide to cheat, then the thrill of the affair takes over the lack of what was missing in the marriage. As you have said, lies and deception almost inevitably start.

 

One of those lies would be that everything is perfect, because to then admit that it is not would mean the possibility/probability of uncovering the affair. And at this point, the WS wants the affair more than the marriage...and yet does not want the marriage to disintegrate either. The affair provides a thrilling and secret life. The marriage (even if it is far from perfect) provides the "normal" life that the WS still needs.

 

Affairs are an addiction in many cases that are started to fill a need. Most are not about true love but about the love of how it feels.

 

And to be honest about why he or she is in the affair could destroy the now precious affair.

 

Once he or she goes down the road on the Affair Highway, there are few exits that will be honest and constructive until one hits the Wall of Reality at the end.

[JamesM]

So the question, then, that many are focusing on is can someone cause their partner to want sex from another person. The answer would be yes.

 

And that desire when presented with a temptation can easily result in cheating.

 

BUT - in order for it to be an A, there has to be sneaking and lying. Right? So the secondary question would then be can a person cause their partner to lie to them. Not no but HELL no!

 

No, but the lies are needed to cover the affair which was motivated by (perhaps) the wanting of sex which may be motivated by the lack of sex in the marriage. (Using sex as an example).

 

So, while directly the BS did cause the lies, he or she may have provided a motive for the WS to take a trip down the Affair Highway which has many destructive paths.

[woinlove]

Many affairs seem to start during some crisis, loss of job, death of loved one, critical illness of spouse, or sometimes just a big change in life, such as pregnancy of spouse. One can say the illness or death or pregnancy caused the affair, and yet, so many people go through such challenges without cheating. Still seems just like an excuse to say the crisis or change caused the affair. Some people will cheat if their spouse catches the flu and some will cheat if their spouse has cancer. Seems one can point fingers at all kind of "influences", but one is not going to get anywhere on really understanding the causes without looking inside oneself if one decides to cheat.

[Spark1111]

A lot of the posts that are arguing that a BS can cause a WS to cheat, focus on things such as lack of sex and/or affection. However, that still doesn't address why the WS chooses to lie and deceive. In another thread, a WS also mentions lack of sex in his M but also says he and his W agreed to tell each other if they were unhappy and instead of doing that he had an A. Can a BS make the WS break their promise to be honest?

 

For those who think a BS can cause a WS to cheat, how do you think they cause the lies and deception? What stops them from telling their spouse they are unhappy and want to or will pursue a relationship outside of the M?

 

To me, the unethical part of an A is the deception and betrayal in an M where the BS is led to believe they have a monogamous M. If everything if out in the open, even if one spouse doesn't like the fact that the other spouse is going outside the M, at least the spouse knows and can try to change things or divorce. I don't think the posts which put the cause on the BS address how the BS makes the WS act in this unethical way.

 

 

This was the worst part for me too. This is the brick wall I always hit. And while I may have influenced, help to cause,whatever, his choice to have an affair, I did not cause him to lie to me, daily, to do so.

 

All anyone wanted to know, myself included, is why he did not tell me he had developed feelings for another and intended to pursue them?

 

We could have separated, maybe gone to counseling to see if there was a marriage worth saving. I, too could have also had the informed choice of whether I wanted to date others to see if their was someone out there better suited to meet my unmet needs.

 

See? There is something inherently self-serving and breathtakingly selfish about controlling my oppourtunities to do exactly what my spouse intended to do by not informing me.

 

He wanted the comforts of home, a dedicated and resourceful spouse, a strong family and a mistress on the side.

 

Ok. But what is the motivation of denying that very same scenario to me?

 

You just cannot have it all, not without consequences.

 

So, if actions of mine caused him to seek either an emotional or sexual connection elsewhere, why oh why would he lie and keep it secret from me?

 

Why not separate?

[nofool4u]

Good morning, class!

 

Today's Word for the Day is:

 

CAUSE

 

Let us look at the definition and synonym that would be applicable in the situation we have here.

 

 

Cause - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

Look at #1 the letter A. Note how cause can be used as another word for motive or reason.

 

Personally, THAT is how I have always defined it when we discuss how a BS can cause (or provide a cause) for a WS to cheat. The BS cannot directly make the decision for the WS, but he or she can certainly provide the motive for the person to cheat.

 

No, not all persons when given the motive will cheat, but anybody in a weakened emotional state is as capable as the next to choose to cheat. Just as some will choose a revenge affair out of anger at the WS who cheated, so an affair can be started because of seemingly impossibly unsolvable problems in a marriage. While we may not think we actually provided a reason for the affair, we certainly may have. The person we love despite the current anger and frustration may truly deep down not want an affair, but as vulnerable as he or she is at the time, the affair temptation was too strong to resist.

 

And do we want the person we love to be in a position where we have provided a motive to cheat?

 

Neither do I.

 

Can we look back at many situations where the WS was emotionally weakened by circumstances that provided a motive or reason or cause to choose an affair over his or her marriage, despite the fact that he or she was not one who we would suspect of cheating?

 

Quite possibly. Even though I have not chosen an affair nor has my wife, I can see how we may have had times that one would have seemed very attractive if the temptation was presented.

 

Enough said.

 

Thank you.

 

Class dismissed.

 

Ok then, we should all bend to the will of those that will put this on the BS in the form of "cause".

 

Now maybe the mods can close this thread and let the cheater apologists win.

 

Cheaters and their apologists are right, the betrayed spouses are wrong. Case closed

[JamesM]

Cheaters and their apologists are right, the betrayed spouses are wrong. Case closed

 

First of all, I didn't know this was an us versus them. I think that is part of the problem. When someone is so painfully hurt by another, he or she cannot perhaps see objectively. Assuming that those who see how someone else can provide a reason for another's decisions is not defending those decisions.

 

Second, saying that there may be a cause for the affair does NOT justify it, nor take the accountability or blame away from the WS.

 

Third, discovering WHY something happens helps someone heal from what happened.

 

Fourth, accepting no blame and shifting all blame on the WS will actually IMO be a damaging approach for the BS even when it feels less painful in the short term. Part of moving beyond the affair involves discovering why it happened. Blaming the WS and fixing them will not make for a happy marriage if the problem IS the marriage. Getting rid of the WS will not help the BS to avoid a similar situation in the future.

 

Fifth, discovering what in the marriage may have caused the affair can be helpful to both parties for future relationships or even the current one.

 

Sixth, many marriages are bad and there is a reason or motive for a person to cheat. This doesn't happen all of the time because: (1) the opportunity to cheat is not available even if desired, (2) the person who has the best motive doesn't because of the inward commitment to the marriage, or (3) who knows. Just as every person doesn't react to a situation the same way, so every person won't cheat when in the same type of bad marriage. Just as every person exposed to a virus won't get sick, so every person in a bad marriage exposed to the possibility of an affair won't cheat. And it is possible that one person who wouldn't cheat one time may do so at a different time.

 

 

What bothers me is that it is too black and white on this thread.

 

If I state that there can be causes for an affair which are provided by the BS, then suddenly I am defending cheaters. Simply because I UNDERSTAND why they do something? Does that mean I am justifying their actions? Of course not. Should they face the consequences for those actions? Absolutely. Does that mean that they have less blame for their actions? No.

 

What does it mean then? It means simply that what they chose to do was based on the information that they had at the time, and what they had at the time was a bad marriage (ie lack of sexual or emotional connection).

 

All I am saying is that an affair does not happen in a vacuum. It happens for a reason. And many times that reason is a bad marriage. And there are two people in a marriage. So, it stands to reason that a BS can provide the motive for an affair, just as the affair provides a motive for divorce.

[JamesM]

No. Directly the BS did NOT cause the lies. And the lies are what make it an affair.

 

No, the BS does not directly cause the lies, but the lies are used to cover the affair which may have resulted from a bad marriage.

 

Lies don't make an affair. A sexual relationship or emotional relationship that is outside of the committed relationship make the affair.

 

Lies hide the affair.

 

Voila!

 

Yes...but not quite as you said.

 

So what you're saying, then, is the "cause" is inside the cheater.

 

That's what I've been saying!

 

No, I didn't say that. And yet, the WS makes the decisions. The cause may be outside, but it may be inside also. Not all affairs are the result of a bad marriage (and yes, I said that before.) The question here is "CAN a BS cause..." And I say, yes, they can.

[nofool4u]

Mods, its been settled. The BS causes the WS to cheat.

 

Is the thread done?

[Spark1111]

First of all, I didn't know this was an us versus them. I think that is part of the problem. When someone is so painfully hurt by another, he or she cannot perhaps see objectively. Assuming that those who see how someone else can provide a reason for another's decisions is not defending those decisions.

 

Second, saying that there may be a cause for the affair does NOT justify it, nor take the accountability or blame away from the WS.

 

Third, discovering WHY something happens helps someone heal from what happened.

 

Fourth, accepting no blame and shifting all blame on the WS will actually IMO be a damaging approach for the BS even when it feels less painful in the short term. Part of moving beyond the affair involves discovering why it happened. Blaming the WS and fixing them will not make for a happy marriage if the problem IS the marriage. Getting rid of the WS will not help the BS to avoid a similar situation in the future.

 

Fifth, discovering what in the marriage may have caused the affair can be helpful to both parties for future relationships or even the current one.

 

Sixth, many marriages are bad and there is a reason or motive for a person to cheat. This doesn't happen all of the time because: (1) the opportunity to cheat is not available even if desired, (2) the person who has the best motive doesn't because of the inward commitment to the marriage, or (3) who knows. Just as every person doesn't react to a situation the same way, so every person won't cheat when in the same type of bad marriage. Just as every person exposed to a virus won't get sick, so every person in a bad marriage exposed to the possibility of an affair won't cheat. And it is possible that one person who wouldn't cheat one time may do so at a different time.

 

 

What bothers me is that it is too black and white on this thread.

 

If I state that there can be causes for an affair which are provided by the BS, then suddenly I am defending cheaters. Simply because I UNDERSTAND why they do something? Does that mean I am justifying their actions? Of course not. Should they face the consequences for those actions? Absolutely. Does that mean that they have less blame for their actions? No.

 

What does it mean then? It means simply that what they chose to do was based on the information that they had at the time, and what they had at the time was a bad marriage (ie lack of sexual or emotional connection).

 

All I am saying is that an affair does not happen in a vacuum. It happens for a reason. And many times that reason is a bad marriage. And there are two people in a marriage. So, it stands to reason that a BS can provide the motive for an affair, just as the affair provides a motive for divorce.

 

james I appreciate the points you make and yes, there is a lot of validity to what you are saying.

 

I think if you should ever happen to have an affair, it would be for reasons that you understand, issues you have tried to fix, and needs gone unmet and not responded to for a very long time.

 

That's good.

 

But the majority of BS here are not knee-jerk reacting to what is for you, basically, a philosophical argument since you have, to your knowledge, NEVER been betrayed by a spouse. I hope you never are.

 

We are knee-jerk reacting to anyone who tries to tell us how to feel, what the causes were, and how we may have contributed to our spouse's affair, because the majority of us have agonized over those very feelings and thoughts for months and years.

 

We have read voraciously, sought counseling, introspected, wracked our heads and our hearts, spoken and blogged with other infidelity survivors to examine all that led up to and caused the affair that shattered our world, and this is what almost all of us have concluded:

 

We were 50% responsibile for the state of our marriage. Some of our marriages were great, good, ok, and abysmal. The decision to cheat however, absolutely the poorest choice out there, is 100% the responsibility of the cheater.

 

It fixed nothing. It almost destroyed all. If it wasn't the sex, the mind-movies, the abherrent disrespect, and the constant lying to our faces to maintain the secret affair, it was the total loss of trust and respect we had for someone we revered and believed with all our hearts would keep us safe and have our backs for eternity.

 

Do not mean to negate your opinions, and for the most part, I do agree with the points you are making.

 

However, after reading here for years, I cannot think of one cheater who begged their spouse to go to MC to address unmet needs; who went to IC to learn how to communicate more eficiently with their spouse about sensitive issues; who honestly said, If A doesn't happen, then I will have no choice but do B.

 

Not one.

 

I do agree that people do not know how to do relationships well; that expectations of your SO are much higher than anyone else in your life and that can make honest communication very difficult between you and your spouse. It can also cause great dissatisfaction.

 

But when I hear a series of platitudes and philosophy spoken by one who has not been in the trenches, even though much of it SHOULD BE TRUE; it does make me feel like my experience, my research, my learning and healing and growth is being diminished.

 

It's sort of like talking war stories with a veteran who has actually seen combat.

 

And I find many of the posters here brutally honest in accurately assessing their role in their marriages pre-affair. Guess what? They are still devatated, because not one heard: "If you do not do A, I will have no choice but to do B.

 

That's my truth.

[JamesM]

 

But when I hear a series of platitudes and philosophy spoken by one who has not been in the trenches, even though much of it SHOULD BE TRUE; it does make me feel like my experience, my research, my learning and healing and growth is being diminished.

 

It's sort of like talking war stories with a veteran who has actually seen combat.

 

 

I agree and my intention is certainly not to diminish your experiences. I do have a different view and it is from a different angle.

 

No question it would be different from your angle whether to a small or larger degree.

 

Please accept my apologies if anything I say hurts or angers you. I never want that to happen, nor do I want to cause pain or a reopening of your wounds with my words.

 

Mine is philosophical and yet it may be more objective, too. Hopefully it does help some and not anger all. One doesn't have to be a veteran in the trenches to understand how war kills, nor does one has to actually fight to know how to prevent or strategize in war. Yet that position will never be the same as one who has bled and died for their country.

[woinlove]

 

Lies don't make an affair. A sexual relationship or emotional relationship that is outside of the committed relationship make the affair.

 

Lies hide the affair.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this. I am in an open M. My H and I discuss all our desires, needs, attractions, plans and we only get involved with a third party if we are both happy with that decision. It is a complex M that would quickly crumble in the absence of full honesty and openness. It works for us and it is the M we want. However, there is never a WS or a BS in our M. We do not cause each other pain, because the continual discussion and openness allows us to change plans and make sure both of us are happy.

 

Affairs with a WS and BS are completely different. It is the lies and deception that make them different. Remove those, and there would be no BS or WS with different views to discuss.

 

So, the question of what causes someone to decide to have an A is synonymous with what causes someone to decide to lie to and deceive their spouse so that they can secretly be with someone else. Had the WS chosen honesty, we would be discussing very different matters. In some cases, divorce would result, in some cases there would be no A after the other spouse responded to the honesty, and maybe in some cases there would be an open M. What there would not be is an A with a BS and a WS.

 

I still don't buy the idea that anyone causes another person to lie. Every time I have lied, it was because I chose to. There may have been influences here and there, but I was the cause of my own lies.

[MourningLosses]

James I see why both sides see it as justifying in a sense. I see the BS and my H as partly responsible and I see you agree with this! No wonder the betrayed spouses here take it out on you. Thank you for seeing it from our side. I agree. I see you as taking tw heat off me- I'm not the only one who caused this affair and the BS is not blameless!

Edited December 14, 2012 by MourningLosses

[waterwoman]

I think that very few people have said it's black and white James. I certainly didn't.