Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[JamesM]

You're not the least bit callous, James. No worries.

 

As for your other post, I appreciate the response and figured you had done such introspection already. Honestly, I feel I would have written it word for word...two years ago. I think the difference is that it's not hypothetical to me. Being "furious" doesn't scratch the surface.

 

I know and I understand that my perspective is different than if I were in your shoes.

 

In the immediate aftermath post Dday, far too many BSs are concerned with what they could've/should've done when what they need to be facing is what a liar and cheat they have on their hands.

 

It is folly to focus on the BSs marital imperfections after Dday, it's hurtful to stress it to someone that can barely stop crying, and it's absolutely counter-productive.

 

Well said. And while my answer to the question of this thread may be different than yours, in this we agree. The time for asking "What did I do wrong" is not during the time when the question should be "What do I need to do to get on with life?"

[Decorative]

When you are psychologically healthy and make good decisions that do not harm other people, it is hard to see the viewpoint of a person that is damaged enough to deceive another person on that level.

 

It's not a flaw of a betrayed spouse to not commiserate with a WS.

 

* and my comment excludes the waywards who immediately grasp the error and their bad choice

[BetrayedH]

 

BH that to me is no different than many WSs who have come here for advice (huge mistake)and then the BSs ....who really dont know this persons situation....start jumping all over the person with all kinds of interesting half caulked labels and lines...... "its ALL your fault", "You killed the marriage".....lol....same crap different pile

 

It goes both ways...

 

Funny how people here can see the same thing (essentially) one way but not another...

 

You've told me what irks you...but you still havent told me what you conclude from this? what you take from this? I'm still lost...

 

is it that you beleive that because the WS decided to cheat they never make an effort to address the problems in the marriage??...so WSs dont make an effort to address the problem?? Is that it??

 

If not please tell me

 

Maybe my last post helped make clear my intent with this thread. In case it didn't, I'll try to clarify.

 

When a relatively new BS comes here for counsel, I think the last thing they need to hear is how they caused the affair. Ultimately, the cheater chose that route instead of other healthier, less destructive choices. I find that choice to be significant and one that the BS needs to come to grips with.

 

In the thread that spawned this one, Ray was torn about a triggering hutch in his house that was installed by the OM. His wife was resistant to removing it. Ray needed to have confidence that if his wife were truly remorseful, she would remove the hutch herself. But instead, his wife is still focused on herself and has a MC telling Ray to get over it. At this point, does Ray need to hear from waywards telling to him to disregard the hutch and focus on his contributions to marital problems? No. He needs to focus on the fact that his cheater wife won't even let the guy remove a painful reminder of her affair. And his wife still needs to "get it." She's not owning her sh|t. And telling Ray to further own his sh|t is the LAST thing that needs to happen.

[StoneCold]

Maybe my last post helped make clear my intent with this thread. In case it didn't, I'll try to clarify.

 

When a relatively new BS comes here for counsel, I think the last thing they need to hear is how they caused the affair. Ultimately, the cheater chose that route instead of other healthier, less destructive choices. I find that choice to be significant and one that the BS needs to come to grips with.

 

Explain to me how the choice is significant to the BS

 

In the thread that spawned this one, Ray was torn about a triggering hutch in his house that was installed by the OM. His wife was resistant to removing it. Ray needed to have confidence that if his wife were truly remorseful, she would remove the hutch herself. But instead, his wife is still focused on herself and has a MC telling Ray to get over it. At this point, does Ray need to hear from waywards telling to him to disregard the hutch and focus on his contributions to marital problems? No. He needs to focus on the fact that his cheater wife won't even let the guy remove a painful reminder of her affair. And his wife still needs to "get it." She's not owning her sh|t. And telling Ray to further own his sh|t is the LAST thing that needs to happen.

 

explain to me how the WS needs to own their sh*t in a destroyed marriage but a BS doesnt..... Is what you are saying is that what we need to do is simply tell the BS what they want to hear? This is the helpful thing to do? and/or is it that in order for things to be fixed all a WS need say is "yes I decided to cheat"? and if so...how does that fix anything?

 

I am not following this at all

Edited December 12, 2012 by StoneCold

[carhill]

In the thread that spawned this one, Ray was torn about a triggering hutch in his house that was installed by the OM. His wife was resistant to removing it. Ray needed to have confidence that if his wife were truly remorseful, she would remove the hutch herself. But instead, his wife is still focused on herself and has a MC telling Ray to get over it.

What did the WW's action to proactively retain the hutch cause? The hutch is wood and wire and nails and screws. It's an inanimate object. In that circumstance, due to the psychology and actions of the parties, it apparently took on a greater meaning and importance. Both parties caused that otherwise innocent hutch to become an apparently pivotal point in their reconciliation.

 

I didn't read the 'hutch' thread. This thread isn't about that thread and discussions about that thread should be confined to that thread. This thread is about 'cause', not 'blame' nor 'responsibility'. Cause. Not determinative cause, since the OP used the word 'can'. Potential cause. Possible cause.

 

I read a quote in another thread which is relevant here, to cause:

 

"One other thing...your wife not being sexually attracted to you may be directly linked to how she's treated.

 

Being disrespected certainly doesn't make me want to have sex."

 

I won't comment on the relevance to the thread but rather will take that statement at face value. Did the husband (in this case) allegedly disrespecting his wife 'cause' her to not to want sex? *Can* it cause that response? Is that a valid and healthy statement? Why or why not. Interesting.

[StoneCold]

Everyone has stated ad nauseum that both need to own their part of the R. The WS needs to own their sh|t for cheating, lying, and sneaking around without the usual qualifiers attached.

 

Well BH just said that the last thing the BS needs is to have their feet held to the fire for their contribution.... and you endorsed that post...... now you say otherwise?

 

I'm just trying to make sense of his point because I dont follow

Edited December 12, 2012 by StoneCold

[BetrayedH]

I will feel free to cite the other thread as I am in OP in this case and referenced the other thread in my original post. The moderators are free to close this thread if they feel I am off-topic.

 

I started the thread because I felt another BS was being distracted by a ridiculous conversation about how he caused his wife to cheat. In my mind, he clearly did not cause his wife to cheat. Unless she is under his mind control, she caused herself to cheat. It's a choice and a piss-poor one at that. The entire premise of the distraction was ridiculous. The fact that she resists removing the painful reminder is further evidence to me that the BS should not be focused on the shortcomings of the BS but on the problems within the WS. They chose to cheat and they get to own that choice. Ray didn't need to focus on himself; he needed to focus on his broken and unremorseful wife, as is typically the case regardless of the resident cheaters wanting to deflect the conversation away from the cheating and somehow infer that the BS is responsible.

[waterwoman]

Well BH just said that the last thing the BS needs is to have their feet held to the fire for their contribution.

 

I'm just trying to make sense of his point because I dont follow

 

I guess the point is that the BS first comes in here in a state of shock, in so much pain. What they need first might well be comfort, reassurance and solidarity. Telling them 'Sorry but it's your own fault' won't really provide any of that.

 

Most BS I've seen on here are quite capable of blaming themselves sooner or later - some of us tend to do it almost immediately - they don't need to have it presented on a plate in the first moment of discovery. As time goes by they can process the whole situation, and come to their own conclusions regarding their marriage and what happened and what they did wrong as well as the WS.

 

But whatever they did they could not have 'caused' their spouse to cheat. WS are free agents with the ability to make their own decisions.

[StoneCold]

I will feel free to cite the other thread as I am in OP in this case and referenced the other thread in my original post. The moderators are free to close this thread if they feel I am off-topic.

 

I started the thread because I felt another BS was being distracted by a ridiculous conversation about how he caused his wife to cheat. In my mind, he clearly did not cause his wife to cheat. Unless she is under his mind control, she caused herself to cheat. It's a choice and a piss-poor one at that. The entire premise of the distraction was ridiculous. The fact that she resists removing the painful reminder is further evidence to me that the BS should not be focused on the shortcomings of the BS but on the problems within the WS. They chose to cheat and they get to own that choice. Ray didn't need to focus on himself; he needed to focus on his broken and unremorseful wife, as is typically the case regardless of the resident cheaters wanting to deflect the conversation away from the cheating and somehow infer that the BS is responsible.

 

I'm going to chalk this up to a difference of opinion/approach. Because I dont fully agree with what you're saying and we'll just end up going back and forth for 200 pages

[Snowflower]

BH that to me is no different than many WSs who have come here for advice (huge mistake)and then the BSs ....who really dont know this persons situation....start jumping all over the person with all kinds of interesting half caulked labels and lines...... "its ALL your fault", "You killed the marriage".....lol....same crap different pile

 

 

I get what you're saying here but that is probably a topic for another thread if someone wants to start one...

[BetrayedH]

I'm going to chalk this up to a difference of opinion/approach. Because I dont fully agree with what you're saying and we'll just end up going back and forth for 200 pages

 

Fair enough, StoneCold. I was getting there myself. I enjoy a spirited debate but it's fairly clear that we are not going to convince one another of much and probably don't disagree as much as it may appear.

[carhill]

I will feel free to cite the other thread as I am in OP in this case and referenced the other thread in my original post. The moderators are free to close this thread if they feel I am off-topic.

 

You can, and I will continue to assert the other thread's dynamic is irrelevant to this discussion. You asked a general question and the discussion proceeds on those terms. Further, you are not the OP of the other thread.

[StoneCold]

I'm sure you know the difference between the two. A fresh BS on a forum being lambasted by cheaters after telling of their cheating spouse; a WS who uses the R problems as an excuse to cheat.

 

lol and this is why I'll not proceed with a discussion with you on this....

 

Look at what you just wrote.... clearly your belief that the only victim in a destroyed marriage where cheating has happened is the BS ......and that.....is not correct. There is no difference Donna....hurt people are hurt people......period.

 

and note.... most destroyed marriages where cheating has occurred were more often than not killed long before the cheating occurs. Very few marriages are actually destroyed soley over cheating. Its usually a myriad of small to large varying problems to the point where even if you took the cheating out.....its still done. If it were as clear as you say....MCs would be without a job

[Spark1111]

I'm sure you know the difference between the two. A fresh BS on a forum being lambasted by cheaters after telling of their cheating spouse; a WS who uses the R problems as an excuse to cheat.

 

If someone comes to a forum with stories of R problems, feel free to discuss that. Cheating is on one person. R problems are on both. Even if only one of the R partners is contributing to the problems, the other party is choosing to accept it if they stay. Hence, no matter which way you slice it, a troubled R is on both parties.

 

Infidelity is considered such a devastating crisis in a relationship, one that can almost guarantee the end of the relationship, that counselor a deal with no other issue until the infidelity is dealt with first.

 

Why? There is a great likelihood there will not be a marriage TO SAVE if the MC can't get both spouses through the infidelity FIRST.

 

How I loaded the dishwasher, or some unkind remark I said five years ago will be months down the road after we address the daily lying and planning that allowed him to have sex repeatedly with another woman.....if we are not divorcing or I am not setting fire to his clothes on the front lawn.

[Spark1111]

lol and this is why I'll not proceed with a discussion with you on this....

 

Look at what you just wrote.... clearly your belief that the only victim in a destroyed marriage where cheating has happened is the BS ......and that.....is not correct. There is no difference Donna....hurt people are hurt people......period.

 

and note.... most destroyed marriages where cheating has occurred were more often than not killed long before the cheating occurs. Very few marriages are actually destroyed soley over cheating. Its usually a myriad of small to large varying problems to the point where even if you took the cheating out.....its still done. If it were as clear as you say....MCs would be without a job

 

SC, just because you were miserably married, just because you waited forever to divorce, just because you may have felt very, very, justified in cheating before you ended your toxic relationship, does not mean I, and other BSs are your xWife.

 

You are approaching this thread, like every other thread you participate in, as if affairs only happen because the BS soooo contributed to the toxicity of the relationship, they DESERVED to be cheated upon.

 

That was your sitch. It is not mine. I'm sure it happens but I doubt those people are posting at LS. If your xW ever decides to post here and claims she deserved it, we will respond graciously to her and try to help her.

 

I hope we can refrain from shoving blame down her throat.

[StoneCold]

 

How I loaded the dishwasher, or some unkind remark I said five years ago will be months down the road after we address the daily lying and planning that allowed him to have sex repeatedly with another woman......

 

LOL...um Spark.... is the dishwasher the only other problems aside from infidelity that you see in a marriage?? Do you beleive that infidelity is the only hurtful thing that could happen in a marriage?

 

The MC will focus on the biggest issues first..... it might be infidelity for one side but something totally different for the other. Take a guess how that MC session will go if the MC dismisses the major concerns of the other just to focus on the infidelity concerns of the other party? My guess is not so well

[StoneCold]

SC, just because you were miserably married, just because you waited forever to divorce, just because you may have felt very, very, justified in cheating before you ended your toxic relationship, does not mean I, and other BSs are your xWife.

 

lol...you should take your own advice regarding WSs

 

How ironic

 

You are approaching this thread, like every other thread you participate in, as if affairs only happen because the BS soooo contributed to the toxicity of the relationship, they DESERVED to be cheated upon.

 

That was your sitch. It is not mine. I'm sure it happens but I doubt those people are posting at LS. If your xW ever decides to post here and claims she deserved it, we will respond graciously to her and try to help her.

 

I hope we can refrain from shoving blame down her throat.

 

lol I dont say absolutes spark...you do... I'm talking probabilities.....given that this is the internet thats all I can do.

[woinlove]

I didn't read the 'hutch' thread. This thread isn't about that thread and discussions about that thread should be confined to that thread. This thread is about 'cause', not 'blame' nor 'responsibility'. Cause. Not determinative cause, since the OP used the word 'can'. Potential cause. Possible cause.

 

I read a quote in another thread which is relevant here, to cause:

 

"One other thing...your wife not being sexually attracted to you may be directly linked to how she's treated.

 

Being disrespected certainly doesn't make me want to have sex."

 

I won't comment on the relevance to the thread but rather will take that statement at face value. Did the husband (in this case) allegedly disrespecting his wife 'cause' her to not to want sex? *Can* it cause that response? Is that a valid and healthy statement? Why or why not. Interesting.

 

I think the fact that we are talking about infidelity is relevant, because for many people the dishonesty is wrong and unethical. Most people have a barrier against doing things they think are wrong and unethical. One question is can one person cause another person to act against their values and do something they consider wrong? I think that may be possible if you are pushing or manipulating them, but here the unethical behavior is being kept secret from the BS.

 

On the other hand, for those who have no ethical or values problem with deceptive infidelity, then I think analogies to other situations, such as not wanting sex, are more relevant.

 

One can go to the other extreme and ask if someone can cause someone to commit an illegal act. Legally, I don't think this can happen if the other person is completely unaware that the illegal act. The one committing it would be solely responsible and the most important cause of the act is the fact that they were willing to and decided to commit an illegal act. I think one's own values and ethics act in similar ways. I don't think anyone could cause me to act against my values. Some things may influence me, but I would always feel the cause of my behavior was my own free will.

[William]

Hello from moderation. Here's the topic:

 

Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

 

Short of the BS slowly waving their hand in front of the WS and saying, "These are not the droids you're looking for. And by the way, you should search for the solution to our marital problems within a nearby vagina," I tend to think that the decision lies solely with the wayward. Anything else is simply blameshifting.

 

Thoughts?

 

Comments, arguments and debate regarding this subject are welcomed. Off-topic commentary and editorial comments about other named and/or unnamed posters are not. Stage Two.

[BetrayedH]

As far as I'm concerned, the question has been sufficiently addressed.

[screwedovertwenty]

Yes I believe that a BS can cause a WS to cheat.

 

If the BS is outright physically, emotionally, verbally abusive, then maybe the WS feels they have no choice but to turn to someone else to deal with it.

 

Or, if the BS coldly denies the WS any sexual attention or physical and emotional connection--then that could cause the WS to look outside the marriage.

 

Having said that, it seems like most of the threads posted here by both WSs and BSs don't really involve those sorts of situations.

 

Is once a week, denying "any" sexual attention?

[Spark1111]

Yes I believe that a BS can cause a WS to cheat.

 

If the BS is outright physically, emotionally, verbally abusive, then maybe the WS feels they have no choice but to turn to someone else to deal with it.

 

Or, if the BS coldly denies the WS any sexual attention or physical and emotional connection--then that could cause the WS to look outside the marriage.

 

Having said that, it seems like most of the threads posted here by both WSs and BSs don't really involve those sorts of situations.

 

oh, PULLEAZE. those people are, not for the most part, posting here at LS are they?

 

Those cold, abusive, denying sex and affection people are not usually posting here at LS broken-hearted that they have been betrayed by someone they loved.

 

Cold and abusive spouses have made it completely the fault of their spouse, fully self- justified in their actions, and now seeking the next person they can abuse in the name of love while claiming their spouse drove them to it or made them cheat.

 

no, cheating is a choice, as is divorce, trying to fix,or leaving an I fixable relationship.

 

Cheating is just the most cowardly choice of all those available.

 

Not getting enough sex? Tell your spouse and get out.

[Spark1111]

Is once a week, denying "any" sexual attention?

 

Not if that was not directly, kindly and compassionately expressed to you by your spouse!

 

hinting or whining does not count. if he said, I love you and I need to express that more than once a week with you or I will grow so frustrated I may have to seek it elsewhere, which I do not want to do, so how can we solve this together?

 

Than yes! Once a week should have been fine.

[CantgetoveritNY]

Yes I believe that a BS can cause a WS to cheat.

 

If the BS is outright physically, emotionally, verbally abusive, then maybe the WS feels they have no choice but to turn to someone else to deal with it.

 

Or, if the BS coldly denies the WS any sexual attention or physical and emotional connection--then that could cause the WS to look outside the marriage.

 

Having said that, it seems like most of the threads posted here by both WSs and BSs don't really involve those sorts of situations.

 

Either door #1 or door #2 above I still see telling the spouse that you have had enough and are leaving is the honorable thing to do. If you are in danger, leave. How is engaging in an affair going to increase your safety? Cheating is NOT helpful. Telling the spouse you have had it give that person the notice and ability to change their ways. And even if you have really had to the point that it is too late for that at least you are not a CHEATER. You leave with dignity and self respect. I do not see how having an affair is the right of even a person is a situation that your describe above.

[Tainted love]

If I caused my SO to cheat, why is he so desperate to reconcile with me? Why do so many of them go running back home after their affair is exposed?

 

I don't this BS cause their partners to cheat...the action of cheating must be owned by the cheater because there are so many other solutions to fixing a relationship than going elsewhere for your sexual/emotional needs.