Gaslighting

[MissBee]

Tenacity I can understand you being lied to hurting you' date=' gaslighting is after all manipulative lying. I think to an extent everyone does it, sometimes not to hurt people sometimes just to keep the status quo. I think I may have done it myself. It isn't always evil. My MM is gaslighting his wife, but she has known him 33 years, she will be reading him like a book. I can tell when he is manipulating me too and maybe I let him. But I can manipulate him with his own methods Use it as a positive and you will be aware of it happening again.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry but gaslighting is always "evil" and any relationship where you have to think "Maybe he's manipulating me...but I can manipulate him too" is a problem. This isn't normal behavior and thinking. A relationship of mutual manipulation is really pointless and unhealthy.

 

We all lie. Telling white lies or lies once in a while is very different than gaslighting which is making this other person think they're crazy by how deep and manipulative it is. Everyone who has had it done to them can attest to how horrible that is. Tenacity explained it perfectly. I have never been gaslighted to that level but have been involved with a guy before who attempted to do that to me...I put a stop to it though because it made me sooo uncomfortable and fortunately I had my wits together and was only just starting to date him so I was able to differentiate the truth from his crazy bullshyyt and told him: "This isn't true, I'm not crazy, you're an effing liar! Leave me alone!" And ended it. But from even just that minor experience I can only imagine how someone, esp someone you love/trust doing that to you for extended periods is nothing short of wicked.

 

I don't think you're understanding gaslighting versus mere lying to maintain status quo or whatnot.

Edited December 23, 2012 by MissBee

[Tenacity]

YES! Yes yes yes. Everything clicked into place. Thing is he wasn't even doing it on purpose. But he was seeing me and our life differently and subconsciously gaslighting me.

 

Getting over it is another thing. I have zero self-esteem now. I burst into tears earlier today when I realised we were going to visit a friend on the 30th - she and her H are the most together and energetic people I know. I can't face them. H did that to me. Makes me so angry.

 

You have my sympathy tenacity x

 

Thank you. I am so sorry for what you are going through. Reading your post made me want to cry.

 

I suspect you will get the self esteem back and then some. You seem like a very strong woman. I wish I could do something to change what you are going through. You did not deserve any of it.

[Tenacity]

I assure you, it's happened to me and I wanted to share with you the solution that worked for me going forward, making it much less likely to happen again. That's all.

 

I am truly sorry if I misunderstood your post. I'm all ears for any solution moving forward. My solution has been - and likely will continue to be - not to trust anyone like that again.

[buckeyeblue]

 

To the others -- I have learned a lot from this thread. From those of you who posted from the BS perspective with such respect, I thank you - I will admit that most of my thinking about this has frequently been from the more selfish perspective of how it affected ME. While I always try to understand as much as possible how A's affect the BS - because I hate and regret the pain that I caused - I honestly didn't think it through in this way before. Just thinking about the fact that the BS was gaslighted while not being aware of the A - just makes me ill. To think that my ex-MM did that to me but also to HER at the same time is horrible. And yes, it was horrible that he did it to me, but I was there by choice. The BS's reality was being defined by her without her even knowing it. It is the true definition of gaslighting.

 

Tenacity - Thank you. Thank you for trying to understand the horror that a BS goes through. I am living every day with so much hurt and pain. My life (and the lives of my children) were ripped out from under us, without our knowledge or consent. I appreciate that you are sensitive to our pain.

[ComingInHot]

For me the whole gaslighting (that started long before his A), was one of the main reasons I was SO happy to be told of his affair. I AM NOT CRAZY!!! Husband was a crazy manipular that most times began believing his own bs!

Because I experienced it, I can now see it coming/happening and can call Foul. I am the last person I doubt now because I live a genuine life. And some may think that's made me untrusting BUT the truth is, I'm able to trust myself first allowing me to still trust others yet know when to call a spade a spade*

[Yasuandio]

Tenacity:

 

Non naive and non needy people with healthy self esteem are not susceptible to gaslighting.

 

This post is a prime example of gaslighting.

[alexandria35]

Yeah you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think

 

I said, and it was taken out of context as a post had been deleted, that some people do gaslight to an extent!!!! If we all went telling the truth all the time, life would be unbearable

 

You are comparing tact and diplomacy with gaslighting and manipulation. They are not the same thing in any way shape or form.

[todreaminblue]

todreaminblue - I am not sure how your example is gaslighting. What you describe is most definitely not a healthy state of mind to be in but it doesn't seem to involve your husband lying to you.

 

Gaslighting is very hard to deal with when anyone does it! I am sure we have all had that friend or family member who will just lie and tell stories for no reason. You question everything that is said. It is one thing to have it at this level, where it is more arm's length, compound that with someone who's life is intertwine with you. There are children who grow up with a parent(s) that do this and they deal with many issues as they get older.

 

Sorry Tenacity for what you went through. Hopefully the one silver lining of all of it is that your perception of your life, thoughts, truths, etc. are solidified and prioritized now and no one can cause you to question it.

 

 

I dont think it was gas lighting, did i get lied to constantly, did he give me the silent treatment and make me wonder what i did yep, did he seem to be pissed at me i had no clue as to why he was pissed before he would use the excuse he needed to get out yep,did he find fault with everything I did, told me not to think so much I would just turn mental and if I had done something three times over to make it perfect did he notice that and not what I didnt do or hadnt gotten to because I was distracted by trying to perfect something that was for him....of course he noticed what i didnt do........

 

 

 

.from what i can see "gas lighting" is a possibility i have many more examples......a therapist called it projection....the desire to twist a situation to alleviate feelings of guilt or shame...he felt that..... my therapist also said i was prone i hate that wrod by the way....prone to being abused.Prone to me is unconsciously alive someone on here used thatwor d in regards to me a long time ago and it triggered something hthat sent me fruity on here.....now i can write it and feel nothing but a dislikE for the word....PRONE

 

 

 

 

I once asked for a lift back from court for me after my son was denied bail, i was in the middle of a breakdown, i felt i had failed my son, i had to get more community support letters, , he was at work nearly finished, i had missed the bus,i was dog tired had to get home and cook dinner, he was ropeable that i had asked for a lift saying i was too needy, i couldnt do anything by myself, i was hopeless,he was really angry......the car ride home had started otu with him steaming, eyes narrowed silent....i begged him to tell me what was wrong that i could take it and that i just wanted to know why he was so angry....

 

 

 

to tell teh truth i should have just stayed silent myself(poor judgement skills on my behalf) and then i wouldnt have got what was wrong......he was living a double life that was wrong, affairs are just wrong all round they cause negative emotions and situations to happen because they are negative to a relationship.....my ex was coming apart himself....

 

 

 

i dont know if you call that gas lighting or not i know it as projection now....after he had told em hwo he felt abotu me....i dont think i have ever felt lower, because i knew i was sick i knew i was failing and that was my fault..........it was my fault that i kept trying and trying till i couldnt until he told me what was wrong...normally i do this and it workds...i fix things.......so i am partly responsible...and i dont blame him anymore for what he didnt say or said or what he did or didnt do.......i am just glad to have moved on...whether or not he gaslighted me or projected on to m e...it doesnt matter..that is what my first post was trying to say...what good does it do to give something a name...projection , gaslighting, guilt it is just a label not a solution ..it happened its over not going back....knowing its name doesnt help.....thats only my opinion though.....deb

Edited December 23, 2012 by todreaminblue

[Tenacity]

Tenacity - Thank you. Thank you for trying to understand the horror that a BS goes through. I am living every day with so much hurt and pain. My life (and the lives of my children) were ripped out from under us, without our knowledge or consent. I appreciate that you are sensitive to our pain.

 

I don't feel like I deserve a thank you - but thank you.

 

Honestly, it really hit me like a brick when I read the posts about this in terms of the BS being betrayed. I had not thought about the BS situation in this way at all. Knowing what it felt like, knowing it had to be so much worse when it hit you out of the blue and you had no part in its making - really gives me a completely different perspective on that kind of pain and what it must be like. It's the worst thing in the world. Now I get a glimpse of how you felt and how your life was taken from you. I am not communicating this very well.

 

Please do not think I am trying to say I understand your level of pain. I never will. I never want anything to do with being involved in an A ever again.

 

I am so sorry for what you are going through. You - specifically you - will be in my thoughts on Christmas. I wish that next year will be much different - better - for you and your children and family. Thank you for your post.

[Tenacity]

what good does it do to give something a name...projection , gaslighting, guilt it is just a label not a solution ..it happened its over not going back....knowing its name doesnt help.....thats only my opinion though.....deb

 

It does, though, at least in my opinion. It's not just giving it a "name". This isn't interchangeable with 'guilt' or anything else. The point is to understand what has taken place and be able to put it in perspective when moving forward.

[Decorative]

This post is a prime example of gaslighting.

 

Oooooh.

 

That is an excellent point!

[Tenacity]

Oooooh.

 

That is an excellent point!

 

Honestly - that is exactly how it struck me when I read it. It was just that same feeling.

[buckeyeblue]

 

Please do not think I am trying to say I understand your level of pain. I

never will. I never want anything to do with being involved in an A ever again.

 

I am so sorry for what you are going through. You - specifically you -

will be in my thoughts on Christmas. I wish that next year will be much

different - better - for you and your children and family.

 

Tenacity, you made me cry. You - specifically you - have helped me know that there are some OW who have a good heart and are truly sorry for the hurt they helped cause. Your compassion goes a long way in helping me get past my pain and move on. I wish you a great year next year as well.

[todreaminblue]

it is a fools game,

some else is to blame,

its not being able to look within,

and see where you begin

or to see an end in sight,

its a fools game,

played under the cover of night,

its just a game won or lose,

with hearts just trying to prove,

 

 

why that heart should count and be the only one,

when they never were and the scars are already done,

it never was just about her her,or her heart,

through from her reason and logic did depart,

caught in the ideal of softness awareness and truth,

misguided dream of an even more misguided youth,

well the eyes they age, the heart moves on to just another stage,

and the scars they do heal,you can learn again how to feel

to know that time it was game whether you did win or you did lose,

its your heart that wants and that is out now out to prove,

that even though the you can fall and you lost the game,

that because you can love again you should not feel shame,

you cant convince someone to love when they dont feel,

you can only move on and find love thats right and real,

you are never PRONE to fail and fall and endlessly repeat,

a failed love with a battered car and no one in the drivers seat,

so maybe take time and work on that battered car repairs,

next time will be the time you find someone who cares,

its a game if you let it be that way,

only and always you ARE THE ONE who can turn night into day,

sometimes hard knocks are a gift and you survive and yeah you will be okay

they make you feel strong and ready for love and you to discover,

the softness, the truth and the respect of a fortunate lover

gaslighting, guilt, abusive, projection and many more labels and names,

doesnt matter if you weren't the one who was playing the game

that game was out of your control and not played by your rules,

and the people who play them, well, they are the fools......deborah....

 

,

Edited December 23, 2012 by todreaminblue
shoudl read gas lit lovers at heading cant change it

[MissBee]

Ok here goes MM talking, "hi BS, going out with the lads tonight, don't wait up." OR Hi BS, i cannot stop seeing this woman that I love, i hate that i feel this weak and want to see her more than you, i hate that maybe it is destroying our marriage (or maybe it was bad before), i feel guilt, i feel bad, i don't know what to do right now, but lying is the only way to deal with it at the moment... ok _ i don't know how i feel about our marriage, about anything, it is killing me but I have to see her".

(this is how I believe my MM feels)

 

Which do you prefer? ): gaslighting???

 

What???

 

I'm really confused.

 

I prefer the truth, even when it hurts, over being lied to, especially in serious matters. If you tell me I don't look fat in a dress, that's a white lie that doesn't do much harm. Although I'm someone who has no need for empty compliments. If I had on clothes that were unflattering I'd like my man to say so, in a gentle way.

 

In any case, you are conflating gaslighting with ANY kind of untruth or lie when they are not the same things. Everyone lies, everyone doesn't gaslight. It's like saying everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. No...being an alcoholic is a very different state than having drinks socially. Gaslighting is a very different, systematic and deliberate thing that occurs for an extended period of time versus telling a one-off lie. One can even be in an A and not gaslight, depending on the nature of it.

 

The definition of the term gaslighting is:

 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

 

Gaslighting isn't just lying. It includes lying but is a whole series of other behaviors. I don't think a lot of MM go that far. A lot do...but some just do the more simple lies and denials but don't actually try to make their wives/OW believe they are crazy. Tenacity's MM definitely did though!Her case is the definition of it and it is psychological abuse. Denying something is one thing...but denying then trying to make another believe they are crazy, even when the evidence is not in your favor, and using their trust to manipulate them is gaslighting.

 

The term actually came from an old movie called Gaslight, in which a man wanted his wife to believe she was losing her mind so did little things everyday to make her feel that way and he was also a bigamist. You should check it out, it's on Youtube. Perhaps watching that movie and seeing the context of where the expression came from will help you to understand what it is and how it differs from the examples you've given.

Edited December 23, 2012 by MissBee

[seren]

There is a whole world of difference between someone saying one thing to hide what they are doing and gaslighting. Lying to cover their tracks isn't the same as the drip, drip effect of telling the other person that things aren't how they really are. It isn't about naivety, or complacency and the BS is as likely to be gaslighted as the AP, no one knows if it is reality or not, until it becomes clear that gaslighting is or has taken place.

 

Using trust and belief in you (general) to manipulate a situation to your advantage is more than telling lies, it twists the others sense of what is, it might not be done intentionally, but the end result is the same. If you believe and have experienced nothing to persuade you otherwise, that the person you love and trust has your back, that when you ask something and are told emphatically that what is, isn't, you begin to think that your perception is skewed.

 

It isn't always huge, noticeable events, in fact, it is the small, almost unnoticeable things that eventually tip reality into self disbelief. It can be that you are a few minutes late, ordinarily it wouldn't matter, it may have become a standing joke between you, then suddenly it becomes an irritation, the irritation is made known, it might be subtle, sigh's or small comments, over time this becomes a pattern so that the person almost panics at the thought of being late and a pattern is set where anxiety around a certain time becomes the norm. Or, you might ask over and over if something is wrong and are told not, so, you begin to question if you are seeing things that aren't there (not hallucinations) and are being over sensitive, deep down you know you are not, but the other is telling you differently and so it also adds to the drip, drip effect.

 

These are just a tiny few examples, added together it makes for a world that has shifted slightly, you know it has tilted, but until everything falls off the table, you think you are not seeing straight. It is a world away from telling lies, TBH, no one in an A situation can be truly confident they are being told the truth, other than the WS. Gaslighting can effect anyone, I have read here of BS and AP's who believe and hang on and are manipulated in order for the WS to have a relationship that suits them. I don't think that all WS do this to be cruel, nor do I think AP's (most anyway) even give a thought to how the gaslighting affects the BS. It is difficult to see the effects of gaslighting until it is apparent it has been happening.

 

It does not make a person naive or that they have low self esteem, TBH it says far more about the person gaslighting than the one who has it done to them. It is a relief to finally know the truth, in all instances, to think otherwise is truly naive. The long term effects are that blind faith, total trust are often lost. It doesn't mean that it effects all aspects of a person's life, but it often means that they guard their heart more. I would say that until you have lived it, you really have no idea how destructive it is.

Tenacity, I hope you find peace and resolution, you sound to have had a really rough time, it is trite perhaps to say, but time does heal, your compassion is admirable. Take care x seren

[waterwoman]

J'adore, if your mm is really thinking that she would much rather have the truth. What he us doing is simply lying and making their entire marriage a lie. But not gaslighting. Poor woman.

[angie2443]

And with this statement you have just completely invalidated everything I said as well as everything all the other posters relayed about their own experiences. You have turned it around to blame the person who was gaslighted instead of the manipulator, saying that it's their fault they were in this situation to begin with.

 

Do you have any idea how destructive and damaging that statement is? It's like telling a victim of physical abuse that they were at fault and somehow "invited" the abuse.

 

There is a difference between being "naive" and "trusting". If being naive means that you should not trust the person you love and that you are so paranoid and suspicious that you would dismiss more likely explanations for these behaviors than to believe your partner is deliberately screwing with your mind - then call it naive if you will. These action are not overt or obvious to hit anyone in the face - that is the entire point of it. The "drip- drip" effect over time. Most people trust the person they love in a relationship -- that's the way it's supposed to be.

 

I would suggest that you read more on the topic, because you don't have to read very much to verify that ANYONE is vulnerable to being gaslit by someone they love and trust. Anyone. It has nothing to do with "self esteem"... actually, the fact that it does not is the very definition of it.

 

You seem to think that lack of self-esteem is the explanation to everything. You are entitled to your opinions, but I am asking you to please in the future not post to me and tell me I lack self-esteem. If you have said this to me once, you have said it a dozen times, and I'm not dense so I got it the first time. Your opinion is noted. There is no need to keep repeating it, and I would prefer you stop.

 

I'm so glad for this post- especially the bolded part. I have seen plenty of people with intelligence and self confidance get hurt by gas lighting. One of the things that aids the one who is gas lighting (abusing, in my mind) is the many, many people who want to blame the victim for what happened to them or is happening to them. I guess it makes some feel safe to say "it wouldn't happen to me because I'm to strong (smart, or whatever)" The sad truth is that the "frog in the boiling water" effect is very real.

[freestyle]

Oh , I've been gaslighted before. Once by my SO, regarding an emotional affair---and more recently by an old friend who turned on me, and is now trying to turn others against me. (because I had the audacity to warn her about getting involved with a former colleague of mine, who I knew to be dishonest & abusive...) (I guess that makes ME the 'bad guy'????) She managed to re-write over a decade's worth of friendship history, to justify throwing me under the bus. She actually said, "We were never *really*that close anyways.." This immediately after me spending every moment of my free time, helping her out of a crisis situation. For six months.....

 

I found out (after the fact) that at the same time I was helping her---she was bad-mouthing me behind my back (with distortions & outright fabrications) to anyone & everyone who would listen-painting me as "the villain". But smiling to my face to ask me for favors...:eek:

 

I was wondering why the heck I was getting cold shouldered by a large portion of my social circle...having no clue about what was being said behind my back. I wasn't aware the well was being poisoned. So I was second-guessing myself , left & right--wondering what must be wrong with ME.

 

I went from being a strong, self-assured, reasonably intelligent woman--to wanting to curl up in a ball, and pull the covers over my head.

 

Feeling like you can't trust your own judgments, and perceptions CAN reduce even the strongest person to emotional sushi.

 

And then the realization that someone actually WAS deliberately lying---feeding you a false version of reality---brings a whole 'nuther layer of crap to contend with.

 

First--there's the relief that "no, I'm NOT crazy, after all...".

 

(and how sad & twisted is it---to be relieved to discover that someone was lying to, or about you?)

 

Then comes the shock , & inevitable anger when it sinks in that you were being played..........Being fed a sh*t sandwich, disguised as true bond. From someone you thought you had emotional safety with.

 

I view it as one of the most horrific forms of psychological abuse there is.

 

for anyone who wishes to read further--we had a thread about gaslighting in the infidelity section a few years ago...

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/241532-gaslighting-3.html

[Yasuandio]

 

Non naive and non needy people with healthy self esteem are not susceptible to gaslighting.

 

This post is a prime example of gaslighting.

 

Right. In other words, if one were not deficient to begin with, the results of "gaslighting" would not be an issue.

 

Oooooh.

 

That is an excellent point!

 

Ooooooh. Ooooooh. It's creepy, isn't it? First the lights start dimming. Then, they start to brighten up again. Ooooooh. Ooooooh.

 

 

Honestly - that is exactly how it struck me when I read it. It was just that same feeling.

 

Yeah, that strange sensation that "strikes" when someone may be gaslighting you.

 

 

 

Hey, Pierre...

 

Try not to gaslight people that are really wanting to understand what gaslighting is. Here is a great Xmas flick suggestion for your holiday cheer: I think Netflex has "Gaslight" (The Movie) for instant viewing! Check it out! Merry Christmas, you guys! Yas

Edited December 24, 2012 by Yasuandio

[synes]

Gas lighting....I didn't realise there was a name for it.

I spent 9 years of my 13 year marriage with this going on.

I really did believe I was stupid, incompetent, even my children believe the false me that has been created as a method of control and abuse.

 

Loss of confidence, self doubt, feeling you need that other person because you cant cope/manage on your own, you cant trust your own decisions/beliefs/memory when someone is always so convincingly contradicting them... altered reality believing your version/memory of events is fabricated, my stbexh rewrote history to fit his agenda, to make his actions justified...he wanted me to believe I was the the liar..not him.

 

A good friend once told me to always look for the common denominator...

[skylarblue]

To me, there are differences between lying, manipulation, and gaslighting. Lying means telling an untruth. Manipulation means purposefully trying to influence a person's thought or belief. Lying or manipulation can stand on its own; one doesn't have to include the other and/or gaslighting. Also, neither has to include a victim of harm. Lying can apply to something as innocent as hiding a surprise party. Manipulation can apply to the wording and structure of a speech.

 

Gaslighting means purposefully and systematically using lies AND manipulation to control a person, situation, and/or person's free-will by creating ongoing doubt/dismissal of one's correct intuitions and/or sense of reality/truth through (false) pretenses (false appearance or action intended to deceive; feigned reason or excuse; outward appearance) for the benefit of the gaslighter. Gaslighting implies a very devious and deliberate victimization, and I would be hard pressed to think of any condoning reason that it would be used in a R.

 

A gaslighter uses the vulnerabilities of trust and position/relationship to employ his (or her) tactics, taking advantage of a person who is least likely to expect dishonesty and deception from him/her. Blame-shifting is a must as it is the channel to create doubt in oneself (how stealth and effective it is to have doubt come from within than having to be convinced from an outside source).

 

Gaslighting exploits all of the basic sincerities one must extend in order to have a genuine R with another.

[woinlove]

Then you have not read much......

 

It was not meant to be mean at all!!!!. I am not mimimising anyone's pain. I think being a sociapath is really quite serious and that is what people are really talking about It was not meant as a joke

 

Then why put a big grin symbol at the end if it is not meant as a joke? That symbol sure doesn't come across like empathy for the pain caused by gaslighting, which has been described so well on this thread, so I have no idea what your post meant.

[freestyle]

I find it sad and cruel that you would make a comment like that when some of the ladies have wrote posts that clearly are gaslighting examples, and you did it with a laugh at the end. You try to further minimize them and their pain. I think your post about takes the prize for one of the meanest I've ever read here.

 

 

I was offended, and saddened by that as well. My capacity for trust has been deeply damaged after going through what I've been through. It was even more painful to be gaslighted by a trusted friend of many years---that actually stings more than being gaslighted by a romantic partner. She wanted to publicly discredit me, because I knew the truth about her new boyfriend (he's an ex-con, for one, on top of being abusive...) So she smeared me to anyone who would listen. To save face for herself.

 

Actually for those who haven't done extensive studying into sociopathy---lying, manipulating,& gaslighting, are tools of the trade for them.Combined with a marked lack of empathy for the pain of others. It allows them to swindle, defraud others without an ounce of remorse.It's definitely nothing to laugh at.

[MissBee]

I was offended, and saddened by that as well. My capacity for trust has been deeply damaged after going through what I've been through. It was even more painful to be gaslighted by a trusted friend of many years---that actually stings more than being gaslighted by a romantic partner. She wanted to publicly discredit me, because I knew the truth about her new boyfriend (he's an ex-con, for one, on top of being abusive...) So she smeared me to anyone who would listen. To save face for herself.

 

Actually for those who haven't done extensive studying into sociopathy---lying, manipulating,& gaslighting, are tools of the trade for them.Combined with a marked lack of empathy for the pain of others. It allows them to swindle, defraud others without an ounce of remorse.It's definitely nothing to laugh at.

 

I think it's showing ignorance.

 

The definition of gaslighting has been laid out so the comment that what people are talking about is sociopathy is ridiculous.

 

In any case, as you pointed out, gaslighting is a tactic that sociopaths can use. Therefore they do not have to be mutually exclusive. Not everyone who gaslights is a sociopath but lots of sociopaths gaslight.