Why is suicide always seen as wrong?

[amaysngrace]

Society has lots of double standards that I don't understand.

 

Abortion ok, suicide a cowardly act. One is a choice of a living, breathing person, the other has no choice or say. My body my choice, but not when I want to kill myself, but killing my baby is ok? hmmmm......

 

Yeah I don't understand how some countries have close to no safe drinking water while we in America poop in ours.

 

Hmmm indeed.

[pteromom]

I havent lost respect for pteromom a phenomenal advice giver ,thoughtful , wise and sweet...this post wasnt thoughtful however and she admits she doesnt understand it....no one is perfick...love pteromom.....smilin atcha.....deb

 

I admit I don't get it. I went through a bout of depression when an ex-boyfriend passed away in my 20s. And another when my first marriage ended.

 

But it was short-lived and self-correcting. I have a very strong will to live, and a strong will to make the most of life.

 

Ross, I don't think that smelling a flower will turn things around. I only know what you share of yourself on here, so my perception of you is based on that, but I think you are smart and able to improve yourself. You said yourself that you've made strides toward that end. If you have a crappy therapist, you need to look elsewhere.

 

And insensitive or not, I do think that suicide is running away when you should be fighting, or in cases where you can't, allowing others to fight on your behalf.

 

There is a huge difference in ending a life when you are terminal and in constant physical pain, and ending a life when there are other options.

[Ross MwcFan]

I admit I don't get it. I went through a bout of depression when an ex-boyfriend passed away in my 20s. And another when my first marriage ended.

 

But it was short-lived and self-correcting. I have a very strong will to live, and a strong will to make the most of life.

 

Ross, I don't think that smelling a flower will turn things around. I only know what you share of yourself on here, so my perception of you is based on that, but I think you are smart and able to improve yourself. You said yourself that you've made strides toward that end. If you have a crappy therapist, you need to look elsewhere.

 

And insensitive or not, I do think that suicide is running away when you should be fighting, or in cases where you can't, allowing others to fight on your behalf.

 

There is a huge difference in ending a life when you are terminal and in constant physical pain, and ending a life when there are other options.

 

Sorry if I came off as harsh before peteromom, maybe losing respect wasn't the right way of putting it. I've always liked you and thought you were a really nice person, so when I read that post of yours it really surprised me, I never would've expected you to say something like that, it was really insensitive.

 

I have made progress, but it always comes back to me feeling like total crap again, most of the time I feel really bad, and it feels like it'll never end, because it feels like my life will never really improve enough.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Ross MwcFan

[HeavenOrHell]

I've been fighting for 40 years, I'm very tired.

 

I've asked for help until I'm blue in the face and have been turned away, again and again, I gave up asking, I have no fight left in me.

 

You have a very strong will to live, good for you, I don't.

 

 

I admit I don't get it. I went through a bout of depression when an ex-boyfriend passed away in my 20s. And another when my first marriage ended.

 

But it was short-lived and self-correcting. I have a very strong will to live, and a strong will to make the most of life.

 

Ross, I don't think that smelling a flower will turn things around. I only know what you share of yourself on here, so my perception of you is based on that, but I think you are smart and able to improve yourself. You said yourself that you've made strides toward that end. If you have a crappy therapist, you need to look elsewhere.

 

And insensitive or not, I do think that suicide is running away when you should be fighting, or in cases where you can't, allowing others to fight on your behalf.

 

There is a huge difference in ending a life when you are terminal and in constant physical pain, and ending a life when there are other options.

[pteromom]

Sorry if I came off as harsh before peteromom, maybe losing respect wasn't the right way of putting it. I've always liked you and thought you were a really nice person, so when I read that post of yours it really surprised me, I never would've expected you to say something like that, it was really insensitive.

 

I have made progress, but it always comes back to me feeling like total crap again, most of the time I feel really bad, and it feels like it'll never end, because it feels like my life will never really improve enough.

 

Ross, no worries. I did not take it personally.

 

I have had friends who committed suicide, and I am sorry if you think my opinion is insensitive, but I stand by what I said. In every case, they had people who would have helped them if we had known the extent of their pain. Instead of reaching out, they gave up.

 

I think suicide is selfish and... stupid. It isn't a judgment of YOU, because you haven't done it, and hopefully never will. You may be having a hard time in your life, but you continue to try. And you have my respect for that.

 

You have to keep trying, and celebrate small victories. Keep reading books on self-improvement. Keep reading websites that promote positive thinking and give you tools to accept and love yourself. Keep working on yourself and pushing yourself, even if it's just a tiny bit at a time. You'll get there. I have faith in you.

[pteromom]

I've been fighting for 40 years, I'm very tired.

 

I've asked for help until I'm blue in the face and have been turned away, again and again, I gave up asking, I have no fight left in me.

 

You have a very strong will to live, good for you, I don't.

 

Who have you asked for help from? How did they turn you away?

 

That is sad... I am so sorry you don't have a strong will to live.

 

Do you have anything in your life that brings you joy? Do you have anything that makes you laugh? Do you have anything that gives you meaning?

[HeavenOrHell]

I would have felt more guilty if I'd not got help for her and she'd died, but yes I know what you mean, I think in some (rarer) cases it would be kinder to not intervene, but then I'm aware my view is probably warped as I'm depressed myself.

 

I know many people are so thankful they did not go though with it, or 'failed' to die.

 

 

Hey HeavenOrHell, usually whenever I've imagined saving someone from commiting suicide, it feels as though it would make me feel guilty. It always feels as though I'd have no right to do it, unless I knew for a fact that their despair was just very temporary, and that they'd feel very glad that they didn't do it after all when they're feeling better.

[todreaminblue]

I admit I don't get it. I went through a bout of depression when an ex-boyfriend passed away in my 20s. And another when my first marriage ended.

 

But it was short-lived and self-correcting. I have a very strong will to live, and a strong will to make the most of life.

 

Ross, I don't think that smelling a flower will turn things around. I only know what you share of yourself on here, so my perception of you is based on that, but I think you are smart and able to improve yourself. You said yourself that you've made strides toward that end. If you have a crappy therapist, you need to look elsewhere.

 

And insensitive or not, I do think that suicide is running away when you should be fighting, or in cases where you can't, allowing others to fight on your behalf.

 

There is a huge difference in ending a life when you are terminal and in constant physical pain, and ending a life when there are other options.

 

 

I can only write what I know pteromom, I knwo that wrong people can sap the living will out of you, i know that circumstances out of your control make you want to control what happens to you...when you give up the will to live and yes i believe all people were born with the will to live.......but life takes it away...bit by bit ...scrap by scrap adn soem peopel get to the point its just gone.....when i have been at that stage....it manifests by my body shutting down walking is an effort, eating is effort...life is effort.....i have been extremely blessed with people who have pulled me through that..god puts them in my way...i truly believe that.some people dont have that blessing and some people end it on impulse.......I have survived for other people...teh guy who saved me who broke into my unit....I affected him, i asked him to forget me and leave me alone.......he got pretty choked up .......i looked at him, and resigned myself even though i didnt know him i couldnt affect him that way...and i began to fight.......and i got back my will to live.......random acts of kindness adn the showing of emotion acceptance caring understanding is what saves lives....it makes a difference...he was a random who always said hello never ignored me.......and he always smiled at me......he made me fight because he showed me there are people who care adn he didnt have to ...he could have said **** you when i told him to leave me alone(i wasnt nice about it)....he broke in instead...sometimes you have to break through even if it is for a random...its a validation of the highest order.....random act of kindness...deb

[TouchedByViolet]

when you give up the will to live and yes i believe all people were born with the will to live.......but life takes it away...bit by bit ...scrap by scrap adn soem peopel get to the point its just gone.

 

I know the feeling.

 

When I was young I had a lot of problems but was relatively happy because of one thing, hope. I instinctively had hope that when I was older I would do better and chart my own path. But sometimes life doesn't work out and after years it can be difficult to cope.

[KathyM]

Suicide is wrong because it hurts those who care about you. On a spiritual level, it is wrong because your life is a gift from God to use wisely and honorably. To trash that gift is an insult to God, and forever takes away the potential for good that your life could become.

[gaius]

It wouldn't affect anyone on here if I never appeared on the site again.

 

I'm surprised that I'm still posting on here to be honest because of all the bullies on here, maybe I'm a sucker for punishment.

I can't recall ever seeing you get bullied, unless the moderators keep deleting it before I get there. Usually it's you blowing up at someone over an innocuous comment you deem offensive. Mostly women posters from what I recall. Pteromom is just the latest.

 

I do agree with you Ross though about suicide. People should be allowed to end their lives for whatever reason they wish and not be considered disgraced or selfish for it. It takes an incredible amount of willpower to actually take an action you know for sure will end your life. There are an awful lot of people who think that because they've thought of suicide a few times, had bouts of depression, or maybe taken 10 aspirin that they can relate to those who put a gun to their head and pull the trigger. They're completely different levels of pain and despair.

 

My mother worked in a home for children with problems when I was growing up so I was exposed to the effects of therapy and medication at an early age. It was remarkable how often it was totally ineffective, even after 10-15 years in the system. After kids had been medicated to the point of drooling all day and not feeling any better inside. Calling one of those kids who's suffered for decades selfish or a disgrace because they finally decided to end the torment is an abhorrent attitude our society still clings to. Which is why I'm a big supporter of the Final Exit Network.

 

Final Exit Network | Ensuring Death with Dignity

[Radu]

I can see that it's selfish, in a way, to end your own life because of how it will affect others, but why should a person stay alive just to keep others happy?

 

I stopped my best friend from killing herself a couple of years ago, but still wonder if that was right or fair of me seeing as she lives every day in pain, agony, misery, and it's unbearable for her and I can't see things ever improving for her.

 

I've had depression/anxiety since I was 3, I have frequent thoughts about ending my life, it's a normal day to day thought for me, I cry most days, again this is normal for me.

 

I've never thrived in life and I'm in my 40's now, I doubt I will ever thrive, life is a daily battle. Some take to it, and even enjoy it, I don't.

 

I feel guilty as I have a far more wonderful life than millions of other people do, but that doesn't negate how I feel. I spend all of my time helping others, which does give my life meaning, but if I could die now by flicking a switch, or could die in my sleep I'd do it.

 

If you can't find a reason to live for yourself, can you find a reason to live for others ?

[amaysngrace]

My mother worked in a home for children with problems when I was growing up so I was exposed to the effects of therapy and medication at an early age. It was remarkable how often it was totally ineffective, even after 10-15 years in the system. After kids had been medicated to the point of drooling all day and not feeling any better inside. Calling one of those kids who's suffered for decades selfish or a disgrace because they finally decided to end the torment is an abhorrent attitude our society still clings to.

 

If a child has been in treatment for all those years and hasn't been able to learn new ways to view things, it shows how flawed our mental healthcare system is.

 

Children are pretty adaptable.

 

Of course they can't learn if they're being drugged to the point of drooling. Which is only more proof of how the system is broken.

[Ross MwcFan]

I can't recall ever seeing you get bullied, unless the moderators keep deleting it before I get there. Usually it's you blowing up at someone over an innocuous comment you deem offensive. Mostly women posters from what I recall. Pteromom is just the latest.

 

I only ever stand up for myself (or blow up as you like to see it), when someone is rude to me. If this has mainly been with women, than that will be because it's mainly been women who have been rude to me.

 

I've got no idea whether it's been mostly women, men, or an equal amount of both to be honest.

[HeavenOrHell]

It's not necessarily mental illness which causes depression, I find life depressing and stressful, always have and probably always will, life IS hard for many people, the world is f*cked up, society is f*cked up.

I don't thrive in life at all, I don't like it here, no amount of drugs or therapy has, or would, change that for me.

I wouldn't kill myself because of what it would do to my mother, she didn't kill herself when she was depressed (cos of my dad playing around with other women) because she knew what it would do to me.

 

You have to realise some people have more will power and strength than others.

 

Also, people who do end up killing themselves may have tried everything they possibly could to get better, they won't all be just giving up without a fight, you can't possibly know every person's situation.

 

How would it be possible for there to be nothing that could help them? Unless they've tried EVERYTHING, they don't know that.

 

Mental illness is usually able to be improved, if not cured. I know many many people who are very happy now who at one point attempted or considered suicide.

 

My reasons for suicide being wrong have nothing to do with how it affects others. It's just a cop-out. There is so much beauty and joy in the world. So many things to experience. So much to see. So much to do. Just saying "no thanks" or "I can't" and choosing to opt out of trying to get better is a pussy move. It's the ultimate in weakness. I think people should demand more of themselves than that.

 

And if they are truly in a place where they feel completely hopeless, they need HELP, not death. Find help. Call 911 and say you are thinking about killing yourself and let people help you if you aren't in a place where you can help yourself. Call a family member and let THEM help you. Call a hotline.

[HeavenOrHell]

Not true in my case, my doc didn't believe me when I said I was depressed (I'm good at hiding it), but when I went into detail and told her about my suicidal thoughts she said yes you are depressed. But still, no therapy for me, not enough to go around is always their answer. I've lost count how many times I've asked for help. So it's incredibly frustrating/infuriating that you say people don't try hard enough, or give up.

I've been offered other anti depressants to try but have had such bad experiences with some of them I am phobic about taking them, and they only mask how I truly feel underneath, they've never helped me for more than a few months.

 

Oh, I was offered a support group but my ex goes to it, so I can't, it's only the group here.

 

I find it patronising you say suicide is stupid, that totally belittles how I feel and how hard I try to get through it.

 

Crying with unbearable loneliness and desperation and wanting the pain to stop is really stupid of me isn't it, I must stop doing it.

 

 

Ross, no worries. I did not take it personally.

 

I have had friends who committed suicide, and I am sorry if you think my opinion is insensitive, but I stand by what I said. In every case, they had people who would have helped them if we had known the extent of their pain. Instead of reaching out, they gave up.

 

I think suicide is selfish and... stupid. It isn't a judgment of YOU, because you haven't done it, and hopefully never will. You may be having a hard time in your life, but you continue to try. And you have my respect for that.

 

You have to keep trying, and celebrate small victories. Keep reading books on self-improvement. Keep reading websites that promote positive thinking and give you tools to accept and love yourself. Keep working on yourself and pushing yourself, even if it's just a tiny bit at a time. You'll get there. I have faith in you.

[HeavenOrHell]

Sorry I got angry, it's a subject close to my heart.

 

I think it's quite odd to *not* get depressed in this society, especially if a person is compassionate and caring.

[BehindBlueEyes]

 

It is by far the most selfish act one can commit. Unless of course someone is terminally ill, or will experience physical pain for the rest of their lives.

 

 

Always an exemption to everything.

[BehindBlueEyes]

It comes down to this....

 

People who say committing suicide is selfish and cowardly, have no clue how it is, they have never been there, **** like that is easy to say and until they have been on the edge, STFU and get out of my face.

 

</end>

[Taramere]

I only ever stand up for myself (or blow up as you like to see it), when someone is rude to me. If this has mainly been with women, than that will be because it's mainly been women who have been rude to me.

 

I've got no idea whether it's been mostly women, men, or an equal amount of both to be honest.

 

I think the reality is that you tend to create drama and find all kinds of excuses to label other people as persecutors and bullies. It really doesn't take much to offend you. A woman failing to adopt a "nurturing you with kid gloves" approach towards you is probably all the excuse you need to go into the persecutor mode you blame others for. Such as you did with me some weeks back, when (after I suggested you don't show much motivation to change your circumstances) you came out with a barrage of how I'm widely disliked by people on this board who have often made derogatory comments about me to you in private, and how if ever I need support I needn't expect it from you. That's neither sensitive nor compassionate. I may sometimes be a bit curt in my tone here, but I don't think I've ever told anybody that they are hated by others or that I would turn my back on them if they needed support.

 

Splitting people into angelic helpers/rescuers or evil persecutors is an approach to life which is bound to contribute to the permanent high anxiety which contributes to depression. If you can move away from creating that kind of drama, and from blaming everybody else for it, you can probably start to seriously tackle your depression...but as long as you split everbody around you into evil persecutor or angelic rescuer, I think you will carry on struggling with an anxiety disorder.

 

They say it's cowardly and selfish, but it's my life, and if I don't see any good in it, why is it even in death I'm going to be ridiculed for the action?

 

I understand people have it worse; I understand there are children dying of starvation and disease. I understand all that and I think it's terrible.

 

But my life brings no joy, and honestly if it wasn't for my parents I probably would have done it years ago.

 

I feel like there is too much to change and the barriers seem too tall and numerous to overcome.

 

Why is wanting out such a bad thing?

 

My position is a combination of Spiralout's (eg that it's profoundly unethical for anybody to encourage a person to kill themselves) and Gaius's - that people should not be disgraced for wanting to take this way out.

 

I haven't read this entire thread, and it might be that somebody has already posted the following link (or you may have encountered it yourself).

 

Suicide: Read This First

 

Despite the stigma attached to suicide, suicidal ideation is far from uncommon. A lot of people have gone through a phase of feeling that way, and lived to tell the tale. I wouldn't disgrace somebody for feeling the way you feel, and nor would I sit in high moral judgement of those who have ended up taking that way out of life. However, it's an inescapable fact that such an action would have devastating consequences on your loved ones. There is no thing you can say or letter you could write that would change that.

 

Knowledge of the inevitable consequences on your loved ones would, I should imagine, be the hardest thing for you to bear in the final moments. It's a negative reason for living - ie the fear of the impact of your death on people you care about - but it probably keeps you alive until some more positive reasons come along.

 

One thing I say to clients in negotiation, who are at the point where they feel like walking away from the negotiation without reaching any agreement, is "I don't think you've seen the other side's bottom line yet. If you see it and you don't like it, then you're absolutely free to walk away, but if you walk away now you're never going to know what that bottom line is."

 

Similar thing with life. You haven't seen the whole thing yet. You can't predict with certainty that it's going to get better, but nor can you be sure it won't. Thinking about suicide is making you feel weak. It's perpetuating that sense of hopelessness and the notion that you don't cut. You've somehow got to move away from that to the point where you have a more "bring it on" approach to the world.

 

You need to surround yourself with inspiration to get there. I bet that at the moment you're constantly exposing yourself to the kind of music and movies that bring you down. That exacerbate your depression. It's a real condition, and usually triggered by circumstantial events that are beyond your control. You have to fight it, not help it worsen by ruminating over suicide and listening to depressing music as you probably are right now.

[amaysngrace]

It comes down to this....

 

People who say committing suicide is selfish and cowardly, have no clue how it is, they have never been there, **** like that is easy to say and until they have been on the edge, STFU and get out of my face.

 

</end>

 

Nope. Wrong.

 

I was suicidal just a few years ago. In fact numerous times in my life.

 

I went and got better.

[BehindBlueEyes]

Nope. Wrong.

 

I was suicidal just a few years ago. In fact numerous times in my life.

 

I went and got better.

 

 

So now you're going to spin around and say it's cowardly and selfish cause you got better? Bet you didn't think like that when you were in the "zone"

[amaysngrace]

So now you're going to spin around and say it's cowardly and selfish cause you got better? Bet you didn't think like that when you were in the "zone"

 

Sure I did. That's why I'm still here.

[BehindBlueEyes]

Sure I did. That's why I'm still here.

 

 

Obviously you spun things around, but what I am asking is, do you think it is a cowardly, selfish act? I really doubt you thought so while seriously "in the Zone"

[amaysngrace]

Obviously you spun things around, but what I am asking is, do you think it is a cowardly, selfish act? I really doubt you thought so while seriously "in the Zone"

 

No I wasn't thinking about it at all. Just the act itself. And how much I wanted to die.

 

I knew it wasn't normal to think that so I got help.