Consolidated 'looks' discussion and society's standards of beauty for men vs women

[JuneJulySeptember]

A poster made a response in another thread that caught my eye.

 

They said that even though women know they might be attractive to some men that they still feel ugly because they have to measure up to the standard of beauty society sets for women. I know this is a consensus view because you see so many websites, facebook pages, and organizations encouraging young girls to stand up strong and not be forced into thinking they need to be stick thin and gorgeous like on the cover of Vogue, Cosmo, Vibe, whatever to impress men.

 

But at the same time I think it's hypocritical.

 

Women have admitted they are pickier about looks. All you ever hear about on this forum is men saying they are too ugly and unattractive to get women who go for the best looking guys. And on top of that, guys who are furiously trying to work out in a desperate attempt to get buff so maybe he can have a shot with a cute gal he likes. Some guys here have self esteem that is shot so bad, it will never be recovered. They outnumber the women badly.

 

Where is society's pity for them?

 

Double standard?

Edited January 5, 2013 by JuneJulySeptember

[ThaWholigan]

I think a lot of those men pity themselves more than enough - that is not what they need or should get from society. What they do need is the same thing that women need - encouragement. Encouragement not just to accept their body and face, but encouragement to explore all the ways they can augment themselves and their appearance according to their core person, their already attractive features and the style with which they wish to be perceived to complement those other things .

 

This might not be very coherent, its 7am and I'm typinng on my phone in my bed loool

[JuneJulySeptember]

I think a lot of those men pity themselves more than enough - that is not what they need or should get from society. What they do need is the same thing that women need - encouragement. Encouragement not just to accept their body and face, but encouragement to explore all the ways they can augment themselves and their appearance according to their core person, their already attractive features and the style with which they wish to be perceived to complement those other things .

 

This might not be very coherent, its 7am and I'm typinng on my phone in my bed loool

 

Well, everybody should do that. But you're circumventing the question.

 

Society actively tells young girls that they don't need to look like Stephanie Seymour and Cindy Crawford (excuse my use of models, I'm old and don't keep up with all the Victoria's Secret crap), when in reality looks matter more for men than they do women (in a holistic sense).

 

Women are pitied in the media when they hate what they see in the mirror, but men rarely if ever are. When a woman looks at her face in the mirror and wishes she saw Scarlett Johannsen, society understands. But when a man looks in the mirror and wishes he saw Orlando Bloom or whomever, society calls him a wuss and tells him to suck it up.

[rys]

LS is actually the first forum i've browsed through where men (or boys) voice out their self esteem issue. They outnumber the ladies, I think.

 

But yeah, double standard. When a girl shares her 'issues'- multiple responses are encouraging. But when a guy shares- responses barely stick to the topic hahaha

 

I'm not sure if people dont take pity on them. But they're (or I'm) like "you're a dude, you'll be ok."

 

I really was surprised to read many men being confused about a lot of things.

[Casablanca]

Women have admitted they are pickier about looks. All you ever hear about on this forum is men saying they are too ugly and unattractive to get women who go for the best looking guys.

I totally disagree with this. Sure the "top" or "hottest" women will only go for the "hottest" men or "top" men, but your average girl next door, your 8, the largest group of attractive women (as in there maybe 10% of women are 10/10 but there are 15% 9/10, 40% 8/10, etc) do not care about looks nearly as much as those "10/10"

 

You're average woman will date down IMO in terms of looks. I've seen countless times where I've seen a guy and a girl together and I think, how did HE end up with her...very few times has it been the other way around. Now men seem to date down more in terms of status (i.e. education level, job title, etc), but I'd say your average, boy next door is going to be more picky about looks than your average girl next door. And really, those are the ones men should strive for because those are the ones who will IMO make the best mom's and be someone you can take home. Most 10/10 women I've met, not serious relationship material.

[soccerrprp]

I sometimes wonder about "society's" standard".....All of my friends don't think this way. I would venture to say that it's a standard fabricated by a few visible industries and many buy into it to a point, but I don't think, at a personal level, most agree.

 

Just my thought.

[xxoo]

Once in a relationship, women report still feeling like they are "competing" in some way with more beautiful women. They guys are still looking to Maxim-type images to see beautiful women, next to whom the gf doesn't feel that she measures up. She feels he is "settling" with her, and would be happier if she were more attractive (this is what I've read on LS...not my personal experience).

 

The same women adore their average-looking bf, and have eyes only for him. So he gets her full attention, and she gets "boys will be boys....strip clubs are just for fun...." and the like.

[xxoo]

Women have admitted they are pickier about looks.

 

Also, I don't think this is accurate. It isn't that women are pickier about looks. It is that women are pickier overall. But the men we are ultimately attracted to will range from very good looking to very average (we just aren't attracted to every very good looking or every very average guy--or every guy in between).

[Eternal Sunshine]

What kind of universe do you live in?

 

It's a proven scientific fact that men are more visual than women. But it's like you all expect women not to be visual at all. God forbid if a woman rejects you and dates someone she is actually sexually attracted to.

 

Do you know why there is so much media coverage supporting women that don't look like models? Because, in the real word (i.e. not on LS), it's much, much more common for women to be down on their looks. Because of bolded there is an incredible amount of pressure on women to stay young, be thin etc.

 

Get of your computer, go outside and observe real life couples. How many are there where a woman is significantly worse looking than her SO? Very, very few.

[Mme. Chaucer]

This forum doesn't represent the real world very well. Not that many guys, if any (I can't think of any off hand) that I've ever known really complain about their looks as much as I see on these forums.

 

And what do you mean, "women have admitted that they're pickier about looks"? Whether a woman is "picky" about looks or not, how can anyone gage who is "pickier"? Anyway, I think the most common idea around here is that women have a more narrow pool of who is sexually attractive to them than men do, IN GENERAL. This does NOT equate to "pickier about looks."

 

But anyway, if you want to take what you read here seriously, please take note of ALL the threads and posts by guys about the zero value of women who are overweight, ugly, or over about 25 years old.

 

What do you think this reflects? It reflects the thankfully, diminishing, attitude that women's real worth is in how she looks.

 

Society is not just sympathizing with those women (especially young girls who are still developing) who judge themselves harshly because they don't measure up to what is considered "beauty." Society is acknowledging that this is an issue. Huge industries are aimed towards women's desire to measure up to that standard. Men AND women buy into it. Some of us, men and women both, are able to see past all the barrage of imagery, advertising, and horrible crap like we see here on LoveShack every single day. Others are sucked into it, and for young women this can have pretty disastrous effects.

 

I'm not saying that a guy who feels insecure about what he looks like is not someone who should be sympathized with. It feels like crap for anyone who's struggling with this. But, GENERALLY, boys have traditionally been taught from early childhood that their real value comes from what they DO and who they ARE, not how they look. Unfortunately, for girls, it has been about how she looks, and maybe how she can make others feel.

 

This has been changing and lots of enlightened people are consciously raising their sons and daughters to NOT identify themselves with the pervasive messages we are all bombarded with. Thank goodness.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Once in a relationship, women report still feeling like they are "competing" in some way with more beautiful women. They guys are still looking to Maxim-type images to see beautiful women, next to whom the gf doesn't feel that she measures up. She feels he is "settling" with her, and would be happier if she were more attractive (this is what I've read on LS...not my personal experience).

 

The same women adore their average-looking bf, and have eyes only for him. So he gets her full attention, and she gets "boys will be boys....strip clubs are just for fun...." and the like.

 

Lol. Women cheat ALL of the time.

 

What kind of universe do you live in?

 

It's a proven scientific fact that men are more visual than women. But it's like you all expect women not to be visual at all. God forbid if a woman rejects you and dates someone she is actually sexually attracted to.

 

Do you know why there is so much media coverage supporting women that don't look like models? Because, in the real word (i.e. not on LS), it's much, much more common for women to be down on their looks. Because of bolded there is an incredible amount of pressure on women to stay young, be thin etc.

 

Get of your computer, go outside and observe real life couples. How many are there where a woman is significantly worse looking than her SO? Very, very few.

 

The bolded is not really what I'm arguing though I disagree with you.

 

The fact of the matter is there is JUST AS MUCH pressure on men to look good. They are just supposed to suck it up and STFU.

[monicaelise]

A poster made a response in another thread that caught my eye.

 

They said that even though women know they might be attractive to some men that they still feel ugly because they have to measure up to the standard of beauty society sets for women. I know this is a consensus view because you see so many websites, facebook pages, and organizations encouraging young girls to stand up strong and not be forced into thinking they need to be stick thin and gorgeous like on the cover of Vogue, Cosmo, Vibe, whatever to impress men.

 

But at the same time I think it's hypocritical.

 

Women have admitted they are pickier about looks. All you ever hear about on this forum is men saying they are too ugly and unattractive to get women who go for the best looking guys. And on top of that, guys who are furiously trying to work out in a desperate attempt to get buff so maybe he can have a shot with a cute gal he likes. Some guys here have self esteem that is shot so bad, it will never be recovered. They outnumber the women badly.

 

Where is society's pity for them?

 

Double standard?

 

How often do you see women here posting threads about how there are no hot/good looking men willing to date them? Men assume women have problems their appearance, but it's generally men complaining about their own appearances as the source of their dating problems (at least on this board).

 

Women have their own set of gripes, but "no hot dudes" to date isn't one of them. We have our individual preferences of course, but I can't recall a single thread, started by a female, in which the gripe was about the lack of good looking men to date.

[Casablanca]

The fact of the matter is there is JUST AS MUCH pressure on men to look good. They are just supposed to suck it up and STFU.

There is not nearly as much pressure...I see plenty of women put in their profiles for "their date" where they don't really seem to care what the body type is...much different for men

 

Have you seen a man date down in looks? I bet you've seen a woman date down. The pressure is not there. I can roll out of a bed and look in the mirror and think I look good, but a woman, they rarely like to be seen in the morning without make up or time to do their hair, etc.

[What_A_Hoot]

I think Eternal_Sunshine hit the nail right on the head. If you look at the commercials out there for example, it's all about how women can achieve their youthful looks and get rid of wrinkles, blemishes, etc. You don't see that same focus with a man, at least here in America which is where my experience is coming from. Society has helped create this image, this need that a woman needs to look young in order to feel good about herself.

 

It might have to do with the whole "women making babies" psychology that a woman that looks fit and youthful and all that happy fun fluff is more attractive to men for the mating purposes - something that has apparently been ingrained in the human psyche since the beginning of time.

 

Take the double-standard also where when a guy starts to get gray hair, he is seen as being sophisticated, mature, important, in control, etc. When a woman starts getting gray hair though she is seen as washed up, has-been, beaten, tired, etc.

 

That isn't to say that we should ignore any plight that men might be facing with their own self-issues in the pursuit of "beauty", "sexyness", etc. But the playing field is not the same.

 

And yes I have seen plenty of "average" to "below average" looking men (in my book anyway) with really attractive women; usually because they have money. I never see any "average" or "below average" looking women with hot guys though. Go figure.

[soccerrprp]

There is not nearly as much pressure...I see plenty of women put in their profiles for "their date" where they don't really seem to care what the body type is...much different for men

 

Have you seen a man date down in looks? I bet you've seen a woman date down. The pressure is not there. I can roll out of a bed and look in the mirror and think I look good, but a woman, they rarely like to be seen in the morning without make up or time to do their hair, etc.

 

My experience and observation illustrates the same. I really don't question whether the burden is greater for women to look "good" than it is for men. It simply is as I see it.

[PJKino]

ey

The same women adore their average-looking bf, and have eyes only for him. So he gets her full attention, and she gets "boys will be boys....strip clubs are just for fun...." and the like.

 

Wow what a crock of you know what..women lust after celebrities all the time and look at and comment on other attractive men they see while in relationships also lets be real here..

[PJKino]

There is not nearly as much pressure...I see plenty of women put in their profiles for "their date" where they don't really seem to care what the body type is...much different for men

 

Have you seen a man date down in looks? I bet you've seen a woman date down. The pressure is not there. I can roll out of a bed and look in the mirror and think I look good, but a woman, they rarely like to be seen in the morning without make up or time to do their hair, etc.

 

Isnt "height" apart of looks? if so women are more pickier and shallow because old height is a huge dealbreaker for most women

[Mrlonelyone]

@Eternal Sunshine

 

I think what most guys are complaining about is that what makes a man physically attractive to a woman are features he cannot control. i.e. his bone structure. Masculine caveman facial features, height , and broad shoulders are 100% genetic and cannot be infulenced too much by working out.

 

To add to the problem it is not socially accepted for a man to surgically augment his natural assests.

 

Women on the other hand will be attractive to most men if they are of a healthy weight, with a wasit that's narrower than their hips. Which 99% of women can control simply by staying a healthy weight.

[sagetalk]

1. It's a proven scientific fact that men are more visual than women. But it's like you all expect women not to be visual at all. God forbid if a woman rejects you and dates someone she is actually sexually attracted to.

 

2. Do you know why there is so much media coverage supporting women that don't look like models? Because, in the real word (i.e. not on LS), it's much, much more common for women to be down on their looks. Because of bolded there is an incredible amount of pressure on women to stay young, be thin etc.

 

3. Get of your computer, go outside and observe real life couples. How many are there where a woman is significantly worse looking than her SO? Very, very few.

 

1. Yes, men are more visual, but women are more prone to desire emotional and physical strength which is what society strongly demands of men. That is an equal amount of, if not more, pressure to face. You have to be strong in body and mind. If a man isn't both, he is beta, weak, and unattractive to females.

 

2. Some of the best looking women I have known were almost all down on their looks. No matter how many people told them they were beautiful. My sister is the same way. Some of it is prideful, perfectionism, in additon to low self esteem. That kind of mentality is also attention seeking more than anything.

 

3. It happens a lot actually, but mostly to guys with less physical strength (slimmer, skinny type). Guys who have physical strength, yes, rarely.

[carhill]

Where is society's pity for them?

 

Double standard?

 

Society is a pretty cold entity. Very little empathy or sympathy for anything or anyone. Both men and women, as individuals, feel the freezer of society, in different ways.

 

My results are mixed. While most couples I know range near each other by society's standards, the few I know where the 'beauty standard' varies markedly are where the man is substantially more 'beautiful' than the woman, and that's from someone who is attracted to women.

 

In two cases, the man is not only more beautiful, but also very successful professionally and in one case comes from a wealthy family. Both are long-term relationships, one a marriage of over twenty years and the other a relationship of about 13 years. I've known both women since they were young. One was a former MW/love interest of mine, so it would seem I might be biased about her 'beauty' in a positive way. I have other examples but those two stand out.

 

I don't really have one example I can find where the woman is substantially more 'beautiful' than the man. These results may be skewed by my age demographic, though memories of my 20's and 30's don't really bring marked examples to mind. Another factor is geography; living in a rural area, it's less concentrated with people, and hence there are few 'beautiful' people to draw inferences from. People in larger population areas will likely experience different results.

 

I think women may *feel* more pressure to conform to a societal standard of beauty, much like men *feel* more pressure to conform to a societal standard of success, both socially and monetarily, but both *feel* the pressure to be attractive to their potential dating and mating pool, and process that pressure in their unique ways, psychologically.

[stillafool]

 

You're Now men seem to date down more in terms of status (i.e. education level, job title, etc), but I'd say your average, boy next door is going to be more picky about looks than your average girl next door. And really, those are the ones men should strive for because those are the ones who will IMO make the best mom's and be someone you can take home. Most 10/10 women I've met, not serious relationship material.

 

Why do men do this?

[JuneJulySeptember]

There is not nearly as much pressure...I see plenty of women put in their profiles for "their date" where they don't really seem to care what the body type is...much different for men

 

Have you seen a man date down in looks? I bet you've seen a woman date down. The pressure is not there. I can roll out of a bed and look in the mirror and think I look good, but a woman, they rarely like to be seen in the morning without make up or time to do their hair, etc.

 

I have a number of examples. I have a number of examples in the other direction too.

 

I think Eternal_Sunshine hit the nail right on the head. If you look at the commercials out there for example, it's all about how women can achieve their youthful looks and get rid of wrinkles, blemishes, etc. You don't see that same focus with a man, at least here in America which is where my experience is coming from. Society has helped create this image, this need that a woman needs to look young in order to feel good about herself.

 

It might have to do with the whole "women making babies" psychology that a woman that looks fit and youthful and all that happy fun fluff is more attractive to men for the mating purposes - something that has apparently been ingrained in the human psyche since the beginning of time.

 

Take the double-standard also where when a guy starts to get gray hair, he is seen as being sophisticated, mature, important, in control, etc. When a woman starts getting gray hair though she is seen as washed up, has-been, beaten, tired, etc.

 

That isn't to say that we should ignore any plight that men might be facing with their own self-issues in the pursuit of "beauty", "sexyness", etc. But the playing field is not the same.

 

And yes I have seen plenty of "average" to "below average" looking men (in my book anyway) with really attractive women; usually because they have money. I never see any "average" or "below average" looking women with hot guys though. Go figure.

 

I see it all the time.

 

That is just all in your head. ANYBODY who says that they don't see a hot woman/man with an unhot man/woman is clearly a homer to their own gender, if only because there's a small subset of people who don't care about looks.

 

Lol. There's tons of male products to get gray out of their hair.

[carhill]

Lol. There's tons of male products to get gray out of their hair.

 

That's a really good point and I totally forgot about that. My exW had many male clients who had her professionally color their hair. Some were young and doing the punk looks and some were older and coloring out the gray. Evidently, they felt gray was counterproductive to the appearance they wished to present to society. Otherwise, why bother? One only sees it when looking in the mirror. Ah, the mirror

[xxoo]

Lol. Women cheat ALL of the time.

.

 

I wasn't talking about cheating. I was talking about men buy magazines to see hot women in small clothes, or pay money to see women take their clothes off.

 

Wow what a crock of you know what..women lust after celebrities all the time and look at and comment on other attractive men they see while in relationships also lets be real here..

 

Again, that is not comparable. Comparable would be a guy watching Salma Hayek movies because she's hot, not being in a relationship and subscribing to a magazine primarily because of scantily clothed hot women, or going out with the boys to see hot women dance naked.

 

Even then, women might have a better time accepting it if the naked women looked anything like the girlfriend. Very often, the man is in a relationship with an average looking woman, and paying money to see hot women naked. Sure, that's discouraging. And I don't see women doing anything comparable, on a large scale.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I wasn't talking about cheating. I was talking about men buy magazines to see hot women in small clothes, or pay money to see women take their clothes off.

 

 

 

Again, that is not comparable. Comparable would be a guy watching Salma Hayek movies because she's hot, not being in a relationship and subscribing to a magazine primarily because of scantily clothed hot women, or going out with the boys to see hot women dance naked.

 

Even then, women might have a better time accepting it if the naked women looked anything like the girlfriend. Very often, the man is in a relationship with an average looking woman, and paying money to see hot women naked. Sure, that's discouraging. And I don't see women doing anything comparable, on a large scale.

 

Your impression that women only have eyes for the one they are with is FAR off.

 

That may be the case for you. But it is certainly not the case for women in general.