Consolidated 'looks' discussion and society's standards of beauty for men vs women

[Necromancer]

Women do not like shy\nice men unless they have "hot" looks, Personality does not make up for lack of looks in most cases.

 

Confidence is external validation, not coming from inside mental masturbation.

 

"Most likely the better you look the more confidence with woman you will have and the less you need. This is the truth anyone who disagrees will never wake up from delusion".

 

Now women are trying to shame nice guys for wanting sex, they have 50.000 shaming tactics on speed dial. Yes, guys you are all jerks for having high sex drive, all women can do nothing wrong.

[kaylan]

I would think those guys are just gay or bi.

 

I dunno...maybe it's the circles we run in but I seen plenty of girl on girl action where they aren't lesbians or even bi, but they just like kissing other girls because it's "fun". I don't think you could find many guys who like kissing other guys "just for fun".

How in the world are the guys gay or bi for wanting to hook up with men, yet the women arent for doing the same thing with girls? Im sorry, but I dont subscribed to double standards. In my eyes women who kiss girls are acting on sexual attraction generally, which means they are not straight. Its just that most of them are too scared to change their straight label because of the stigma it carries.

 

Its funnier how Ive known girls who admit to sexual attraction and having sex with women, but call themselves straight because they dont romantically date them

 

And the circles I run in dont have men or women doing all that same sex stuff. However Ive seen both in lifetime...but if people wanna be in denial about their orientation, it plays into what I have said about society shaping peoples views and how they identify.

[ThaWholigan]

Consider me a deluded person. Ignorance is bliss .

[kaylan]

I just linked two in the post you just quoted. Northewestern, in particular, is hardly some kook pop psy think tank; it's a well respected research university. And these are neuro studies, so it isn't something people can fake. They are studying brains, not people's stated reactions.

 

I mean, I could be wrong, of course. And so could these studies. It's always possible to be wrong. But so far, I have offered several pieces of scientific evidence, and you have offered none. Simply insisting that the other person's position is "flawed" and dismissing the science without reading it -- and then providing no evidence of your own -- is not a sign of a good argument. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, because I've just spent a good amount of time catching up on this forum (I'm new!) and you generally seem like a reasonable poster.

What evidence? The Washington Times link has a sample size of 180 women. It tells us NOTHING about where these women are from, their age, their backgrounds, their cultures...etc. So how in the world can accurate conclusions be drawn from such a study?

 

And what people watch in porn is not indicative of what they are truly attracted to. Ive watched a ton of different porn, and like many people, not everything I watch in porn is what I want to do in real life.

 

Regarding the NorthWestern Study,....itd be nice if you linked the full paper. And itd be nice if they told us the sample size, where the people are from, their ages, and if the sample spans many different cultures (not just American culture). Until then, my previous points stand as rather valid imo.

 

The reason I argue this is because it gets tiring constantly hearing the typical new age statements about how sexually fluid women are and how they like sex with men and women....whilst most men are supposedly only strictly into females or strictly into males. It ignores reality I have seen growing up and living life, as well as ignoring sexual history.

 

Again, sexual arousal from porn doesnt prove much. Just cause someone gets turned on watching animals mate on Discovery Channel doesnt mean they are into bestiality, right? Isnt that what you said? If thats the case, how in the world does arousal from porn accurately indicate what someone is attracted to in real world situations, and how does it indicate how they actually behave sexually and who they seek for sex?

[bodhesatva]

What evidence? The Washington Times link has a sample size of 180 women. It tells us NOTHING about where these women are from, their age, their backgrounds, their cultures...etc. So how in the world can accurate conclusions be drawn from such a study?

 

And what people watch in porn is not indicative of what they are truly attracted to. Ive watched a ton of different porn, and like many people, not everything I watch in porn is what I want to do in real life.

 

Regarding the NorthWestern Study,....itd be nice if you linked the full paper. And itd be nice if they told us the sample size, where the people are from, their ages, and if the sample spans many different cultures (not just American culture). Until then, my previous points stand as rather valid imo.

 

First, sample sizes of 180 are actually fairly robust for any study that isn't superficial. Obviously it's easy to do a survey of 1000 people if you just ask them a simple question (e.g. do you like sex with women?), but brain scan studies are not that.

 

Second, the full article for the second link is available through the abstract for the NW study.

 

The reason I argue this is because it gets tiring constantly hearing the typical new age statements about how sexually fluid women are and how they like sex with men and women....whilst most men are supposedly only strictly into females or strictly into males. It ignores reality I have seen growing up and living life, as well as ignoring sexual history.

 

I just want to make sure you know that I am not those people. I absolutely agree that these things are culturally influenced; I am simply saying that the science doesn't suggest that it's all culture. Just like many of our sexual preferences, it may be a combination of both cultural and genetic factors.

 

Again, sexual arousal from porn doesnt prove much. Just cause someone gets turned on watching animals mate on Discovery Channel doesnt mean they are into bestiality, right? Isnt that what you said? If thats the case, how in the world does arousal from porn accurately indicate what someone is attracted to in real world situations, and how does it indicate how they actually behave sexually and who they seek for sex?

 

It suggests their arousals are different, that's all. Unless you are saying that men and women are visually aroused differently, but once actual sex begins they become absolutely identical. That's... possible, of course, but doesn't seem likely.

 

Here are a few more articles on the topic:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=0

 

Here is another interesting phenomenon: women's sexual preferences are apparently cycical relative to their menstrual cycle, while men's preferences are more consistent through time:

 

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Women's choice of men goes in cycles

[Necromancer]

Consider me a deluded person. Ignorance is bliss .

 

So you wouldn't have lost your V card earlier if you had O'prys face?.

 

Just accept that we have zero control over our looks and attractiveness, we can only make the best out of our genes.

 

If you would be born as Jsanza29 on YouTube it would only be you and your hand forever.... maybe even marriage one day if your lucky.

[ThaWholigan]

So you wouldn't have lost your V card earlier if you had O'prys face?.

 

Just accept that we have zero control over our looks and attractiveness, we can only make the best out of our genes.

 

If you would be born as Jsanza29 on YouTube it would only be you and your hand forever.... maybe even marriage one day if your lucky.

I would have lost my V Card earlier if I wasn't autistic, had more balls and actually had any idea how to talk to women properly .

 

I don't want to look like Sean O'Pry anyway .

 

Just accept that the reason you suck with women is not because of how you look .

[KungFuJoe]

How in the world are the guys gay or bi for wanting to hook up with men, yet the women arent for doing the same thing with girls? Im sorry, but I dont subscribed to double standards. In my eyes women who kiss girls are acting on sexual attraction generally, which means they are not straight. Its just that most of them are too scared to change their straight label because of the stigma it carries.

 

Its funnier how Ive known girls who admit to sexual attraction and having sex with women, but call themselves straight because they dont romantically date them

 

And the circles I run in dont have men or women doing all that same sex stuff. However Ive seen both in lifetime...but if people wanna be in denial about their orientation, it plays into what I have said about society shaping peoples views and how they identify.

 

Are you calling my wife BI??? ARE YOU!?!?!

 

Well...you might be right. I'm still trying to work that angle......

[edgygirl]

How in the world are the guys gay or bi for wanting to hook up with men, yet the women arent for doing the same thing with girls? Im sorry, but I dont subscribed to double standards. In my eyes women who kiss girls are acting on sexual attraction generally, which means they are not straight. Its just that most of them are too scared to change their straight label because of the stigma it carries.

 

Its funnier how Ive known girls who admit to sexual attraction and having sex with women, but call themselves straight because they dont romantically date them

 

And the circles I run in dont have men or women doing all that same sex stuff. However Ive seen both in lifetime...but if people wanna be in denial about their orientation, it plays into what I have said about society shaping peoples views and how they identify.

 

Kaylan, from your posts here at LS I get the general impression that you see sex in a black and white way. Yes, girls do kiss girls for the fun of it. And it doesn't make them bi, at all. Even if you go on a threesome, it doesn't make you bi. It makes you adventurous and wanting to experience new things. I've kissed girls and consider myself totally straight. I'll never have a girlfriend and I am not actively pursuing girls to bed them I.e. But if the right opportunity arises, I might do things I wouldn't do in a daily situation. If you don't actively pursue the other sex - no, you're not gay.

[kaylan]

Kaylan, from your posts here at LS I get the general impression that you see sex in a black and white way. Yes, girls do kiss girls for the fun of it. And it doesn't make them bi, at all. Even if you go on a threesome, it doesn't make you bi. It makes you adventurous and wanting to experience new things. I've kissed girls and consider myself totally straight. I'll never have a girlfriend and I am not actively pursuing girls to bed them I.e. But if the right opportunity arises, I might do things I wouldn't do in a daily situation. If you don't actively pursue the other sex - no, you're not gay.

Im sorry, but attraction for the same sex does not mean you are still straight.

 

Its funny, because if a guy said he kissed boys for fun, the lot of you would most likely call him gay or bi. Especially if he was involved in a 3 some where he also hooked up with the guy. Gimme a break. Its amazing how many women want to kiss and sex other women nowadays, act like they are so into trying new things, but wouldnt dare allow someone to call them anything other than straight. Even girls I know who admit liking sex with women do this. Come on now.

 

Its not about "active pursuit". If you can admit that in a situation you might sex a girl, as you just did, that means theres latent sexual attraction. Who you are ATTRACTED to determines your sexual orientation. Its not all active pursuit. How many gays or lesbians have been in straight relationships and didnt actively pursue that part of themselves until later in life even after marriage?

 

Its amazing how in denial people are about this. Is it so bad to be called gay or bi? If you have an attraction or willingness to do romantic or sexual type things with the same sex, I dont know how that is heterosexual behavior. I have nothing against it, but it really shows how people dont ever want to be considered LGBT even though its 2013.

Edited January 7, 2013 by kaylan

[KungFuJoe]

Im sorry, but attraction for the same sex does not mean you are still straight.

 

Its funny, because if a guy said he kissed boys for fun, the lot of you would most likely call him gay or bi. Gimme a break.

 

Its not about "active pursuit". If you can admit that in a situation you might sex a girl, as you just did, that means theres latent sexual attraction. Who you are ATTRACTED to determines your sexual orientation. Its not all active pursuit. How many gays or lesbians have been in straight relationships and didnt actively pursue that part of themselves until later in life even after marriage?

 

Its amazing how in denial people are about this. Is it so bad to be called gay or bi? If you have an attraction or willingness to do romantic or sexual type things with the same sex, I dont know how that is heterosexual behavior. I have nothing against it, but it really shows how people dont ever want to be considered LGBT even though its 2013.

 

It's not so black and white and you are ASSUMING that sexuality is the same for men and women. It's NOT.

[kaylan]

It's not so black and white and you are ASSUMING that sexuality is the same for men and women. It's NOT.

Im not saying its black and white. Look up definition for orientation terms. Sexuality is about ATTRACTION.

[Els]

I think much of the confusion stems from the fact that people somehow believe that being 'bi' means that you must absolutely be totally enthusiastic about sex and relationships with both sexes. But this isn't the case. 'Bi' is a spectrum. Dare I say, there are many, many people who are 'bi', while having one primary gender whom they are sexually attracted to far more than the other. Some have coined the term 'bi-curious' to define this; the person isn't completely straight because they are open to experimenting with some sorts of sexual/romantic activities with the same sex, but are still primarily interested in the opposite sex. There is nothing wrong with this, though, and I don't think it matters what we call it.

 

I am curious how the looks thread turned to this, however.

[kaylan]

All Im saying is its laughable that women keep thinking they can call themselves completely straight while prancing around kissing and sexing other girls. Im not the only one saying this either. Talk to some bisexual or lesbian women. They are way more annoyed by this than I can ever be because they feel like "straight" women use them for fun, while turning their back on being any part of the LGBT community.

 

Societal pressure to lead a "normal" straight life has a LOT to do with that.

I think much of the confusion stems from the fact that people somehow believe that being 'bi' means that you must absolutely be totally enthusiastic about sex and relationships with both sexes. But this isn't the case. 'Bi' is a spectrum. Dare I say, there are many, many people who are 'bi', while having one primary gender whom they are sexually attracted to far more than the other. Some have coined the term 'bi-curious' to define this; the person isn't completely straight because they are open to experimenting with some sorts of sexual/romantic activities with the same sex, but are still primarily interested in the opposite sex. There is nothing wrong with this, though, and I don't think it matters what we call it.

 

I am curious how the looks thread turned to this, however.

This.

[KungFuJoe]

Im not saying its black and white. Look up definition for orientation terms. Sexuality is about ATTRACTION.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, aren't you saying that the same amount of men AND women are attracted to the same sex, but only society's acceptance of lesbianism makes it easier for women to exhibit this openly?

[kaylan]

Unless I'm mistaken, aren't you saying that the same amount of men AND women are attracted to the same sex, but only society's acceptance of lesbianism makes it easier for women to exhibit this openly?

Im saying no one knows just how much men or women arent straight and that its silly to think or pretend its only women who are hooking up with the same sex in the numbers they are.

 

History and daily life has shown me that plenty of folks still hide in the closet...especially men.

 

It should be obvious to anyone that society's acceptance of lesbianism alters how we see people behave in public. I remember when Frank Ocean came out as gay, how many people said theyd stop listening to his music. The same wouldnt happen to a female at all.

[edgygirl]

Its funny, because if a guy said he kissed boys for fun, the lot of you would most likely call him gay or bi. Especially if he was involved in a 3 some where he also hooked up with the guy. Gimme a break.

An ex told me he did a bj on a guy once, out of curiosity. He said he realized it's not his thing and he's not interested in doing it again. I totally didn't think he was gay for doing so. Couldn't care less. In my view, it's called experimenting.

[kaylan]

An ex told me he did a bj on a guy once, out of curiosity. He said he realized it's not his thing and he's not interested in doing it again. I totally didn't think he was gay for doing so. Couldn't care less. In my view, it's called experimenting.

Its one thing to do it once and be done with it (though Id still question how "straight" a girl was if shed be down on a chick). Its another thing to continually kiss or sex women and then say youd be open to it again in the future. The latter does not sound like experimenting, it sounds like patterned behavior.

[edgygirl]

Its one thing to do it once and be done with it (though Id still question how "straight" a girl was if shed be down on a chick). Its another thing to continually kiss or sex women and then say youd be open to it again in the future. The latter does not sound like experimenting, it sounds like patterned behavior.

 

For me, being gay means having romantic interest in someone. I personally thing the same for the term bi (can fall for a man or a woman). I believe having attraction and wanting to experiment with both sexes (in different levels) doesn't make someone bi or gay. Not sure if there's an established psychological definition for these, too lazy too google atm hehe.

[kaylan]

For me, being gay means having romantic interest in someone. I personally thing the same for the term bi (can fall for a man or a woman). I believe having attraction and wanting to experiment with both sexes (in different levels) doesn't make someone bi or gay. Not sure if there's an established psychological definition for these, too lazy too google atm hehe.

Sexual orientation is not about solely romantic interest. Its about sexual attraction as well. Learn what it means. Basically, according to you, if someone only has sex with the same sex, but has opposite sex relationships, then they are straight.....lolz.

 

Again, why are people so afraid of being anything LGBT?

Edited January 7, 2013 by kaylan

[edgygirl]

Sexual orientation is not about solely romantic interest. Its about sexual attraction as well. Learn what it means. Basically, according to you, if someone only has sex with the same sex, but has opposite sex relationships, then they are straight.....lolz.

 

Again, why are people so afraid of being anything LGBT?

 

Yes if people sometimes kiss or do sexual things with the other sex because the opportunity (and attraction) arises, and not because they are actively seeking it, they are straight. Again, I don't think things are black and white like that. So, because I would kiss a girl again, does it make me gay? I really don't feel I am i.e. ... So who are you to tell me I am? I would have no prob admitting if I was, who cares really? For me it's about senses pleasure.

Edited January 7, 2013 by edgygirl

[kaylan]

Opportunity arises? "Actively seeking" does not solely determine orientation. Sexual attraction does. People dont say they are open to kissing or sex with the same sex unless the attraction is there. Why be in denial about this? Its not a big deal really.

 

AGAIN, gay and lesbians marry straight ALL the time only to come out years later. They say they were homosexual the entire time even though they didnt actively pursue it. The attraction was there.

 

And for you its not only about sense pleasure. You want to hold onto the straight label despite being able to possibly enjoy sex with men or women. Why so scared of being LGBT at all? Youre making my point...plenty of men and women want to dip in both sides of the pool but retain the "norm" of being straight.

Edited January 7, 2013 by kaylan

[edgygirl]

Well I think we reached a point where there's nothing more to discuss as we obviously disagree. I gave myself as an example of what is clearly a non-gay person who is up for trying things in life although I don't pursue them. As it doesn't fit your mold of the world and of people you put in a box, you can't relate or understand. It's fine. I just think labels don't apply to everyone.

[kaylan]

I dont put people in a box. Words have meaning, and I dont try to change what meaning things have or who I am simply because Im scared of a factual label. Again, experimentation is one thing...but when it becomes a pattern, its indicative of your sexuality. Bi-sexual indicates attraction, having sex, and enjoying sex with both men and women. Heterosexual means having all of that feeling for the opposite gender. And homosexual means all of that for the same gender.

 

Why try and change the meaning of those things? If behavior falls in line with either label, why be scared of being honest with oneself about it. I wouldnt start smoking weed several times a month and tell people Im not a marijuana user. And I wouldnt start walking around calling myself "mixed", even though my lineage is clearly African-American only.

Edited January 7, 2013 by kaylan

[KungFuJoe]

Opportunity arises? "Actively seeking" does not solely determine orientation. Sexual attraction does. People dont say they are open to kissing or sex with the same sex unless the attraction is there. Why be in denial about this? Its not a big deal really.

 

AGAIN, gay and lesbians marry straight ALL the time only to come out years later. They say they were homosexual the entire time even though they didnt actively pursue it. The attraction was there.

 

And for you its not only about sense pleasure. You want to hold onto the straight label despite being able to possibly enjoy sex with men or women. Why so scared of being LGBT at all? Youre making my point...plenty of men and women want to dip in both sides of the pool but retain the "norm" of being straight.

 

Gonna have to agree to disagree, but I have plenty of personal experience with gay, lesbian, bi, bi curious people to know that there are differences in how men and women view sexuality and attraction. My wife's sister is bisexual, my wife's other sister has a ton of gay friends who I used to hang around a lot, my wife is attracted to women, has made out with quite a few, but the thought of actually having sex with one isn't exactly her cup of tea...I guess you could say she's bi curious. I've seen it all and this is the conclusion I've come up with.