Fat bashing....what do you think?

[amerikajin]

But a person can not just stop eating.

 

Fair enough, and you raise a good point, Beth.

 

I really wish we could move past the issue of "fat bashing" per se on this thread. It doesn't take 14 pages to agree that the actual "bashing" is immoral -- that's just not debatable.

 

I think there are other dimensions to this discussion, such as what exactly do we make of obesity in this society (and in others where this problem exists). Do we accept obesity? If so, how much do we accept? How do we try to influence and condition the masses on the issue of being overweight? Do we use strictly a health angle, or a cosmetic angle, or both?

 

If we use the cosmetic angle to discourage obesity, do we accept as a necessary consequence the fact that those who are obese will possibly have a negative self image, and that we might engender more bias against them?

 

If we use the health angle, do we we accept the possibility of increasing the severity of that bias? People, after all, may justify attacks on fat people as a means of negative motivation.

 

I think what we should really focus on here isn't so much the obesity (although that does, in my opinion have to be part of the discussion since that's part of what we're trying to reduce in an effort to stave off health problems); the real focus should be on getting our societies to live healthier lifestyles.

 

Rather than attacking cheeseburgers as uncool, why not promote biking around your neighborhood? Why not promote taking the stairs instead of the elevator?

 

Why not promote vegetable consumption?

 

Why not promote less fattening diets like Asian cuisine?

 

People have for too long focussed on shaming people into shape, and it doesn't work. I still believe it's the carrot and not the stick that gets people moving.

[sinner]

Awesome way of putting it! It's not a sin to eat, it's a necessity!

 

True, but it is a "sin," in fact a deadly sin, to eat too much. Gluttony, I believe is its name.

 

Sinopsis

 

What it is: Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

 

Why you do it: Because you were weaned improperly as an infant.

 

Your punishment in Hell will be: You'll be force-fed rats, toads, and snakes.

 

Associated symbols & suchlike: Gluttony is linked with the pig and the color orange.

 

http://deadlysins.com/sins/gluttony.html

 

Rats, toads and snakes! Yummy.

[tiki]

Originally posted by sinner

True, but it is a "sin," in fact a deadly sin, to eat too much. Gluttony, I believe is its name.

 

True...which I why I posted in the fashion I did. It's not a sin to eat. Period. Over-eating is a different story.

[moimeme]

Apparently, the point about addictions completely escaped some people.

 

Why not promote taking the stairs instead of the elevator?

 

Why not promote vegetable consumption?

 

Why not promote less fattening diets like Asian cuisine?

 

People have for too long focussed on shaming people into shape, and it doesn't work. I still believe it's the carrot and not the stick that gets people moving.

 

EXACTLY!

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by dyermaker

100% of obese people are obese. 100% of obesity occurs in obese people. You can't separate the two.

 

That stipulated, should we as a society accept obesity?

 

Not accepting obesity does not imply rejecting obese people. It just means sending a clear message, we as a society don't accept unhealthy conditions, so rather than embracing the CONDITION (example: 'I'm fat and lovely' or 'It's okay to be different') we don't embrace that condition. It's fairly simple.

 

when speaking in terms as i did, you can separate the two. i said it's a different thing to dislike the disease and to dislike the person. so i disagree with you wholeheartedly there.

 

society should not accept the disease and should try to find healthier alternatives but not reject, dismiss, harass, humiliate, discriminate against, or hurt in any other way a person who is fat. it is unacceptable. i understand that not accepting the disease of obesity does not imply rejecting obese people but if we are honest here, we know that many, many fat people and probably most at some time or other have been harassed or humiliated simply because they are fat. that is unacceptable.

[littleflowerpot]

"As for the people who claim they are 'prejudiced' against obese people, be sure you are using the word in its proper meaning. Do you really prejudge large people in that you think they are all lazy, self-indulgent, and have other unfortunate personality characteristics or are you saying you just don't like the look of obesity on people."

 

thank you, moimeme. it isn't the same thing at all. one is prejudice and one is personal preference.

 

also, if society's "duty" is to educate these fat folks about their unhealthy lifestyle, society had better get their facts straight. a large number of fat people are fat for psychological reasons and no amount of bashing is ever gonna make them get wise and slim down. in fact, bashing only intensifies the negative feelings that make a fat person compelled to eat more than they should (to stuff, stuff, stuff those bad feelings) and to be too ashamed to go to the gym.

[HokeyReligions]

When I was a kid there was a horrible car accident outside of town. An entire family was killed. They had an article in the newspaper. There was a picture of the baby's casket. It was so small. It was draped with beautiful flowers. There was a family photo showing everyone who was killed.

 

I remember my mother and a neighbor talking about it. My mom had the newspaper. It really touched her heart because she lost a grandson in a car accident a year before. The neighbor hadn't heard about it until my mom told her. As they were talking my mom handed the neighbor the newspaper so she could read the article and see the pictures.

 

The neighbor saw the photos and her whole attitude changed. She wasn't upset anymore. Not big deal. It was too bad because any loss of life is sad, especially under those circumstances. I remember her words. But it wasn't that big a deal, because after all, it was "just a black family".

 

 

We never associated with the neighbor after that. But this thread reminded me of that time. The neighbor was upset too and thought it was a horrible tragedy when she thought it was a white family.

 

All of us have people on the board whose posts we enjoy reading. We like debating with them, or find their POV's interesting or stimulating or valuable. I wonder how many of us would tend to disregard those same people if we believed they weighed over 300 pounds? Would we put any credence into their opinions or views?

 

Imagine someone whom you follow around the board (or who follows you) and you comment on the same things. You respect each others opinions. Maybe you PM them a lot and have a lot in common. Now think that maybe their avatar (if they have a picture up) is not really them. They used someone else's picture because they were embarrassed to put up a pic of themselves because they are obese?

 

How would you feel about them?

 

Now think of the reverse. Think of someone on the board who you really don't like. You never agree with, you think they are always wrong or ignorant or mean. You avoid them, but you still run into their posts in threads that you like. Sometimes you argue with them. Imagine if they were obese. Would you think to yourself something like "OH! That explains their attitude or belief!"

 

 

--------------------

Oh, and hey! Whoever said they think redheads are unattractive---I'm a redhead and I love redheads! *LOL* I know it was an example! Just teasing. I don't think I've ever been discriminated against because of the color of my hair or that anyone (in this century anyway) has attached a negative preconceived idea about redheads.

[moimeme]

Now think that maybe their avatar (if they have a picture up) is not really them. They used someone else's picture because they were embarassed to put up a pic of themselves because they are obese?

 

Wouldn't matter to me. I quite like some people's posts and they've admitted to being less-than-petite. I don't necessarily believe the pics are of the posters anyway. We have to have *some* people here who aren't white, but I've only seen a few pics of folks who aren't. I wonder more how compassionate some people would be if they found out they are communicating with other races and nationalities.

[tiki]

Wow...nice spin on things and very valid points. I wonder how we would feel. Sometimes I'll assume someone is male or female just by their response, not necessarily their screen name, only to be thrown for a loop later when I find out different.

 

We are all different and we all have preferences. Let's try to accept people for who they are. The way a friend taught me to view other people is to realize that we're ALL God's children. All of us are equal. We are all human beings and that's all we really need to have in common. Respect people no matter what color they are, what religion, what weight, etc.

 

I know *I* can work on my 'preferences' a little more.

[littleflowerpot]

i just wanna say that my picture is me! LOL

 

not that it should matter. i wonder how people would respond to me if i put up my sister's picture as my own?

[amerikajin]

I just want to say that this little pic to the left....isn't me.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by amerikajin

I just want to say that this little pic to the left....isn't me.

 

why you deceitful fella! and here i was prejudiced against you 'cause i thought you were italian!

 

i'm kidding! i'm kidding! i jest!

[Mr Spock]

Food addiction is not comparable to drug addiction ( I am classifying Nicotine as a drug as well).

 

There is NO physical addiction to food. Oh sure, we can talk about seratonin cascades until the cows come home, but drug use is a physical addiction as well as psychological and food is not.

 

Overeating is a psychological compulsion.

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

society should not accept the disease and should try to find healthier alternatives but not reject, dismiss, harass, humiliate, discriminate against, or hurt in any other way a person who is fat. it is unacceptable. i understand that not accepting the disease of obesity does not imply rejecting obese people but if we are honest here, we know that many, many fat people and probably most at some time or other have been harassed or humiliated simply because they are fat. that is unacceptable.

 

Yes littleflowerpot, we've established that it's wrong to call people names because they're fat.

 

But is it wrong to be repulsed by it? What you seem to want is for those who find obesity disgusting to EMBRACE it. Love me, love my fat sort of thing. I personally don't wish to embrace obesity-I don't think it's healthy. I worry for my friends who are severely overweight-eventually their joints are going to start giving out, needless to say their heart. I certainly don't call them down-but I wouldn't choose them for lovers, and I have no wish to emulate them.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Food addiction is not comparable to drug addiction ( I am classifying Nicotine as a drug as well).

 

There is NO physical addiction to food. Oh sure, we can talk about seratonin cascades until the cows come home, but drug use is a physical addiction as well as psychological and food is not.

 

Overeating is a psychological compulsion.

 

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

 

 

Yes littleflowerpot, we've established that it's wrong to call people names because they're fat.

 

But is it wrong to be repulsed by it? What you seem to want is for those who find obesity disgusting to EMBRACE it. Love me, love my fat sort of thing. I personally don't wish to embrace obesity-I don't think it's healthy. I worry for my friends who are severely overweight-eventually their joints are going to start giving out, needless to say their heart. I certainly don't call them down-but I wouldn't choose them for lovers, and I have no wish to emulate them.

 

that may be so but i'm sure you may have behaviors they find unacceptable as well and would not wish to emulate either. but that's okay. we are individuals. i'm talking strictly about fat bashing and people that think it's okay. and there are many people that are fat bashers and try to justify it with saying they do it to help the fat people, which is a load of crap. humiliating fat people will never help a fat person and usually helps to make it worse.

 

an eating disorder is a very real condition, btw.

[Mr Spock]

I never said eating disorders weren't real.

 

I am making the point that substance abuse is physical as well as psychological and compulsive overeating/food "addiction" isn't.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

I never said eating disorders weren't real.

 

I am making the point that substance abuse is physical as well as psychological and compulsive overeating/food "addiction" isn't.

 

food cannot be a psychological addiction?

[moimeme]

There is NO physical addiction to food. Oh sure, we can talk about seratonin cascades until the cows come home, but drug use is a physical addiction as well as psychological and food is not.

 

What is a seratonin cascade if not a physical occurrence???? Seratonin isn't made of fairy dust, last I heard.

 

Overeating is a psychological compulsion.

 

All addictions are both physical and psychological because they mess with brain chemistry. Your brain is, after all, part of your body - it's even an organ. It goes on the flooey for biochemical and structural reasons.

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by littleflowerpot

food cannot be a psychological addiction?

 

Read my post a little more carefully littleflowerpot. I stated that it IS soley a psychological addiction.

 

Go ahead and prove me wrong Moimeme-give me links to where it states food addiction/overeating is a physical addiction like heroin, or smoking-I'm always up for learning.

[moimeme]

Are the obese addicted to food, much as some are addicted to drugs? The results of a new study suggest the answer may be yes. Gene-Jack Wang and Nora Volkow of the Brookhaven National Laboratory and their colleagues have discovered that obese people seem to share a neurochemical deficiency with many cocaine and alcohol abusers

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0003A514-BAD4-1C5A-B882809EC588ED9F

 

New Food-Addiction Link Found

Mere sight/smell of food spikes levels of brain “pleasure” chemical

http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/2002/bnlpr052002.htm and

http://www.er.doe.gov/Science_News/feature_articles_2002/June/Food_Addiction/Food%20Addiction.htm

 

It has been observed previously that in humans drugs such as certain anti-psychotic medications that block dopamine receptors increase appetite and result in significant weight gain, whereas drugs such as methamphetamine that increase brain dopamine levels diminish appetite. However, prior to this study, the role of brain dopamine receptors in human obesity had not been directly evaluated

http://www.drugabuse.gov/MedAdv/01/NR2-1.html

 

Dopaminergic mechanisms are thought to be critically involved in reward-related processes and seeking behaviour. OBJECTIVE: To examine the involvement of dopamine in seeking behaviour supported by a natural reinforcer, food, and assess the role of D(2) and D(3) receptor subtypes in food-seeking, using an operant reinstatement procedure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uid12525958&dopt=Abstract

 

What are your findings for food, sex, and drugs of abuse? A They are all very similar to substance abusers. The low D2 receptor is a common phenomenon in the drug addicts and obese subjects. Dopamine modulates our motivation and reward circuits. The subjects at low dopamine state would search for drugs or food to compensate for the decrease activation of circuits.

http://www.psychiatry.ufl.edu/newsletters/Content/wang.pdf

[Mr Spock]

HAHAH I did ask for it. Thanks, I'm looking it up right now. I still don't think compulsive overeating is comparable with a heroin addiction though.

[dyermaker]

I think society has more sympathy for heroin addicts. When Bradley from Sublime died of heroin overdose, everybody mourned. When Elvis died, pretty much, of being really fat, he's the subject of ridicule.

 

Addiction is both pyhsical and psychological. I don't think you can seperate the two.

[Mr Spock]

I suppose. Perhaps I do have less sympathy for overeaters.

 

PS-Elvis was a big pill popper by the time he died.

[moimeme]

I still don't think compulsive overeating is comparable with a heroin addiction though.

 

You can think what you like. The dopamine receptors act the same way so your thinking is irrelevant on the subject.

 

I just love it when, faced with an incontrovertable fact, people still say 'well, it may be proven empirically through dozens of experiments but I won't believe it anyway'

 

And why do people do that? Because to admit they are wrong would mean they would have to abandon a prejudice that they happen to enjoy having. Maybe there's a dopamine receptor for feeling superior, too!

[Samson]

Maybe there's a dopamine receptor for feeling superior, too!

 

If so, then I hope you can refill your prescription soon then!

 

To compare nerve cell reactions to dopimine produced from an injection of heroine and the gobbling of a Big Mac, and to proclaim that since there is no difference in cellular reactions conclude this is solid evidence that there is little or no difference between heroine addiction and food addiction(??) is simply ludicrous on so many levels I hardly no where to start.

 

Since following and then refuting every of convoluted stream of "logic" you produce, Moimeme would certainly be a full time job, I'll have to work within the limits of my own time.

 

Compulsive Overeating is not against the law, dearest Moimeme.

 

Now lets think a bit before your dopamine receptors begin to go off and you cannot find your prescription: Why not?

 

After all, the "dopamine receptors act the same way!!!"

[moimeme]

Could you maybe lay off the ad hominem for a change? It's ignorant and speaks little of your character.

 

To compare nerve cell reactions to dopimine produced from an injection of heroine and the gobbling of a Big Mac, and to proclaim that since there is no difference in cellular reactions conclude this is solid evidence that there is little or no difference between heroine addiction and food addiction(??) is simply ludicrous on so many levels I hardly no where to start

 

Read the studies, would you? I posted links to six of them. The conclusion is not mine.