Fat bashing....what do you think?

[Matilda]

To Deranged Angel: I did not take offense at your comment about feeling sorry for people with disabilities. I was just trying to take advantage of an opportunity to advocate for my son, and teach others.

 

To others posting about how people who are obese should simply stop eating too much. In some ways, yes this is true, in order to lose weight people need to take in fewer calories than they expend. But, it is well known that genetics plays a role in obesity. As with most illnesses, like cancer and diabetes, it is probably a combination of genetics and environment, but genetics certainly is a major factor.

 

For example, I'm sure we all know people that can eat whatever they want, and not gain weight. My husband is one of those people. Then there are people like me, that as long as I eat healthily I can maintain my weight fairly easily. Then there are others that seem to gain weight regardless.

 

Another example, I'm sure we all know people who find it easy to eat healthily, and others who find it nearly impossible. Do you really think that it is simply that those people are weak?

 

I have a 12 yo daughter who is overweight. She does not eat any differently than I did at her age, and I have never been overweight, except for immediately after giving birth. Her father's family are all overweight (her father and I are divorced), and she has his exact body type: apple shaped torso and thin legs. Very different from my own build. I encourage her to eat healthily, but I refuse to make her feel bad about her weight and herself.

 

I personally think that the issue is not appearance, but health. People should try to be healthy. If you eat a healthy diet and exercise, and are overweight, then so be it. Obviously, people who are morbidly obese, are by definition not healthy. These people should try to take control of their health, but I don't feel they should be denigrated if they are unable to.

 

I know I have seen people, who after having their voice boxes removed due to laryngeal cancer, which is generally caused by smoking, are still trying to smoke through their tracheostomy. Obviously, they know they shouldn't be doing this, but should we deride them for this behavior?

 

People should be educated about the direct link between unhealthy lifestyle and illness, no doubt. But, there is a large difference between education and ridicule.

 

If any of you are unaware of the genetic obesity connection, here are some links:

 

http://obesitygene.pbrc.edu/

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1484659.stm

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/11/031104064022.htm

 

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/06_03/obesity.php

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001129074413.htm

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by wideawake

glad to see I can keep things interesting...

 

Ok..let's see here:

 

To the folks that yelled, "NOT ALL OBESE PEOPLE OVER EAT!"

 

Yeah, no kidding, I didn't say all people, I said "I don't" and "my body". I was using myself as an example and in no way was I trying to make a generalization that all obese people over eat. I'm well aware of that fact and it's completely beside the point. If you read this as a generaliztion, you reading too much into it and perhaps taking comments personelly. My appologies if I offended you, though my comments were neither generalized, rude nor uncalled for as the poster wished to examine the issue of obesity in our society.

 

The original poster did NOT wish to examine the issue of obesity. Read the starting post again. I was not offended. Every lifestyle offers higher or lower risks for disease or accident. I just don’t think that obese people or fat people should be discriminated against because they are all judged to have the same lifestyle, and that lifestyle being one of over-indulgence and ignorance.

 

That being said it appears I need to explain the post before we all get a little hot. I was simply trying to present an aspect and problem that our country is dealing with now, and going to be dealing with to a much greater degree in the future. Bottom line is that obesity in America will degrade the quality of living for all of our citizens. Now don't get pissed about that, as I'm not trying to point a finger, throw blame nor condem people for issues outside of their control. These are just facts we have to live with, and as this is the topic of this thread, this is where we talk about them.

Obesity is at the bottom of a long long list of "problems" that the USA and other countries are dealing with in their quest for paradise. Your bottom line is way off. Obese people are not to blame for the health care crisis in America or for health care and other associated costs. That's like blaming the kids in the schools for not getting a better education. Ignorant adults have 'dumbed down' the educational system. Instead of challenging kids to do better, the educational standards are constantly being lowered so no one will feel left out. See a correlation to how obese or fat people are being treated?

 

Now...maybe "fat tax" wasn't the most PC way to phrase my statement. True enough. But I was simply trying to express an idea quickly and I didn't think people would take it the wrong way. My bad.

You didn't think before you spoke -- we all do that.

 

I did read through all of the responses, and to be honest, I didn't see a single one that really spoke to the issue in a intelligent or rational way. Here's some specifics:

 

"As said on the site you posted, obesity is now considered (by the IRS) an illness, so do you think it's fair to make people who have other illnesses pay taxes on those, too?"

Um, the IRS is not an authority for which I have any respect. That's like going to an HMO. A doctor might see a medical problem that needs treatment - but some guy-in-a-tie 500 miles away punches some numbers into his calculator and says "NO" that person does not need treatment.

 

People pay for thier illnesses all the time. I know a few diabetics that have to spends hundreds each month on insulin, syringes, etc... All illness carries some cost factor to the individual, please provide me with an example of one that doesn't.

This is just silly. But I will give you an example and I know this from first-hand experience, since I do not have health care.

 

Ben Taub hospital in Houston Texas. I was there recently. I was there because I do not have insurance and I don't have a lot of money either. Before I could be seen I had to go through a huge paperwork process. I am working so I was able to set up a payment plan. While I was going through the process I witnessed and talked with at least 10 other families who had sick children or adults. ALL of them applied for and received something called a Gold Card and a Wic Card. These cards are paid for by the taxpayers and are part of entitlement programs for people who are un- or under-employed. They receive 100% of their health care free and the Wic Card holders receive free food for their children. These people do not pay into the system--they pay no taxes at all. We are all paying for them. That sounds like I'm backing up your argument doesn't it? But the point I'm trying to make is that those families should not be demeaned or put down or made fun of, or denied an opportunity to work and pay for their own health care. Obese people are denied these things all the time. They are immediately judged to be unhealthy, lazy, unproductive, costly, undisciplined, and ignorant BASED ONLY ON THEIR APPEARANCE. That is DISCRIMINATION.

 

 

"Should we look at the numbers for every disease and discriminate against the majority-type of people who contract the disease?"

 

Should we? I don't know, but we already do on every life insurance policy written in America. Insurance companies have to in order to stay profitable and remain in business. I guess we should if we want to keep luxories like life insurance available on the market.

Every life insurance policy written in America is based on a template and adjusted to fit the individual. That includes premiums. Smokers pay a higher premium and their payout is structured differently. The same with diabetics, and obese people, and people of a certain age, etc. People in high-risk occupations pay higher insurance premiums too. That is not discrimination.

 

Discrimination is looking at a group of people and treating them poorly, denying them the same rights and privileges that others have, based on whatever it is that puts them in a group.

 

 

"Illegal immigration costs American tax payers BILLIONS every year! Why should I pay to educate someone that committed a crime the second their foot touched American soil illegally?"

 

That's a nasty little generalization about immagrants, and has nothing to do with what the discussion is about.

It was meant to be nasty and sarcastic. It does have to do with the discussion since you were using currency and cost as a basis for discrimination. And actually, its not a generalization. We do have a problem with ILLEGAL immigration in this country. Someone who comes into this country (or any other country) illegally -- that is, against the law, is committing a crime--hence the word ILLEGAL. There are many, many ways to enter the country legally. I work with lots of expats and have processed enough paperwork for legal immigration to know the difference.

 

 

"How about their health care? They've never paid a cent into our Social Security or our tax coffers. Why should I have to pay for them? Since I DO have to pay for them, then I should be allowed to call them names and discriminate against them too."

 

 

I sorry you took my use of the phrase "fat-tax" as 'calling names', it was not intended as such. I guess that's what you were getting at. Though you than go on to use the phrase "fat people" repeatedly, so who knows.

I was sticking to the original topic. Taken in that context, yes--- it did sound like you were arguing that cost = permission to name-call.

 

 

"Companies hire people who smoke. "

 

Yes, and all companies pay higher premiums because insurance companies have to factor in the additional cost for those smokers, for obese people and for other statiscal costs associated with disease and illness. As the percentage of smokers, obese, etc... in our society grows, hence so does the net cost of these types of benefits. Again, I was mearly looking at this from a socio-economic perspective.

Smokers pay a higher rate themselves, and/or receive fewer benefits. Look at any health care plan at any company. It may be structured for that in the future for obese people. THAT is why so many agencies (like the IRS) are pushing to have fat or obesity labeled as an illness or disease. Because legally it opens up insurance companies to charge more or set different premiums, and cover less, or allow for a different structure so that some surgeries and radical lifestyle changes can be covered under an insurance plan. It will cost the average taxpayer no more than covering a gay spouse will cost. The opportunity to work and earn money and pay for insurance is what I’m talking about. Denying that based on appearance or weight is discrimination!

 

"How about people who have sex outside of marriage? Or get pregnant when they are single? Shouldn't they be shunned too? Oh wait---we got past that as a society. "

 

Who said anything about sunning people or morality based decisions? My god, I was just speaking to the ECONOMIC IMPACT that obesity is having on our nation.

Teenage and single pregnancy DOES have an impact on our economy! But mostly, STD's have a major impact! The cost of AIDS alone is staggering. People do still discriminate against those with Aids/HIV, and other STDs.

 

"Not every disease a fat person has was caused by their fat or complications from their fat!!!!"

 

No but the vast majority are. Again, nothing personal, that's just the way the stats are running right now in this country. Obesity leads to disease which in turns leads to costs associated to cure those diseases. Those costs on a national average are now approaching 100 billion dollars annually in our country.

I can (and I guess I'll do a search later) find links to reputable sites that will disprove the "vast majority" of diseases. Again, look at the costs for other diseases. Look at the costs for heart disease. The majority of people with heart disease are not obese. There are other causes for heart disease beside obesity. There are no diseases that an obese person can have that a non-obese person can't also have. Targeting a group of people to discriminate against because of health risks is wrong. It just is. Its wrong in the same way as targeting a group of people to discriminate against because of the color of their skin is wrong.

 

$100 billion a year in costs associated with obesity related illness. As a nation, how are we going to deal with those rising costs, and what are the further impacts to our standard of living.

 

Lets look at the stats realistically and not make it so political.

 

I got the information below from The Lewin Group – based on 1999 dollars. Keep in mind that the study relied on published data on the costs of the specific comorbid diseases. There is probably some amount of double-counting in the figure which could not be adjusted--according to The Lewin Group.

 

Obesity Costs in Relation to the Co-Morbidities (1999 dollars in billions)

 

Disease: Arthritis

Direct Cost of Obesity: $7.4

Direct Cost of Disease: $23.1

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 32%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 68%

--------so, 68% of people with Arthritis are not obese

 

Disease: Breast Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $2.1

Direct Cost of Disease: $10.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 21%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 79%

--------so, 79% of people with Breast Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: Heart Disease

Direct Cost of Obesity: $30.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $101.8

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 30%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 70%

--------so, 70% of people with Heart Disease are not obese

 

Disease: Colorectal Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $2.0

Direct Cost of Disease: $10.0

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 20%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 80%

--------so, 80% of people with Colorectal Cancer disease are not obese

 

Disease: Diabetes (Type 2)

Direct Cost of Obesity: $20.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $47.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 43%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 57%

--------so, 57% of people with Diabetes (Type 2) are not obese

 

Disease: Endometrial Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $2.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 24%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 76%

--------so, 76% of people with Endometrial Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: ESRD

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.0

Direct Cost of Disease: $14.9

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 20%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 80%

--------so, 80% of people with ESRD are not obese

 

Disease: Gallstones

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $7.7

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 45%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 55%

--------so, 55% of people with Gallstones are not obese

 

Disease: Hypertension

Direct Cost of Obesity: $9.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $24.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 39%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 61%

--------so, 61% of people with Hypertension are not obese

 

Disease: Liver Disease

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.4

Direct Cost of Disease: $9.7

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 35%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 65%

--------so, 65% of people with Liver Disease are not obese

 

Disease: Low Back Pain

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $19.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 18%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 82%

--------so, 82% of people with Low Back Pain are not obese

 

Disease: Renal Cell Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $1.6

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 31%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 69%

--------so, 69% of people with Renal Cell Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: Obstructive Sleep Apnea

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.2

Direct Cost of Disease: $0.4

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 50%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 50%

--------so, 50% of people with Obstructive Sleep Apnea are not obese

 

Disease: Stroke

Direct Cost of Obesity: $8.1

Direct Cost of Disease: $29.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 27%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 73%

--------so, 73% of people with Stroke are not obese

 

Disease: Urinary Incontinence

Direct Cost of Obesity: $7.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $29.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 26%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 74%

--------so, 74% of people with Urinary Incontinence are not obese

 

Total Direct Cost of Obesity: $102.2

Direct Cost of Diseases: $331.4

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 31%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 69%

--------so, 69% of people with these diseases are NOT obese.

 

Where is your Vast Majority?

[YellowLioness]

I took her to the side and asked her not to say things like that and asked her to appologize to him, and she said "he doesn't care, we say things like that all the time". I then explained to her that it does hurt his feelings when people make fun of him and that not everyone can be skinny like she is, and that he knows he is overweight and he tries really hard to control it.

Her mother also overheard the conversation I had with the little girl, and she only glared at me, never saying a word to the child about her comments

 

I don't think its right that the mother simply stood by and did nothing, or said nothing. Personally, I'd prefer my child to grow up to be accepting of all, rather then critical of most.

[Mr Spock]

Who here is more than 30 pounds overweight? Just curious.

 

PS-Barby, are you still dating that loser?

[wideawake]

Originally posted by TheFaithfulWife

Hmm just curious wideawake.. you wouldn't be a smoker would you?

If so YOU would be causing MY insurance rates to go up.

 

TFW

 

Ah...hmmm....

 

I am trying to quit...

 

[wideawake]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

The original poster did NOT wish to examine the issue of obesity. Read the starting post again. I was not offended. Every lifestyle offers higher or lower risks for disease or accident. I just don’t think that obese people or fat people should be discriminated against because they are all judged to have the same lifestyle, and that lifestyle being one of over-indulgence and ignorance.

 

Hey Hoke,

 

Considering this is the Abuse forum (a fact I was unaware of until I just checked a few moments ago...I only view posts as they pop up in the 'new posts' area and have never paid any attention to what particular forum they happen to belong in.) I shouldn't have posted my comment here. That being said, when I read the intial post it certainly seemed to me the original poster was wishing to speak to this issue.

 

 

Obesity is at the bottom of a long long list of "problems" that the USA and other countries are dealing with in their quest for paradise. Your bottom line is way off. Obese people are not to blame for the health care crisis in America or for health care and other associated costs. That's like blaming the kids in the schools for not getting a better education. Ignorant adults have 'dumbed down' the educational system. Instead of challenging kids to do better, the educational standards are constantly being lowered so no one will feel left out. See a correlation to how obese or fat people are being treated?

 

I agree that the US and other places have a lot bigger issues, that's a given. Also agree that obese people are not to blame for health care crisis, period. All I was doing was pointing out a specific point in regard to obesity and health care the resulting correlations.

 

 

Ben Taub hospital in Houston Texas. I was there recently. I was there because I do not have insurance and I don't have a lot of money either. Before I could be seen I had to go through a huge paperwork process. I am working so I was able to set up a payment plan. While I was going through the process I witnessed and talked with at least 10 other families who had sick children or adults. ALL of them applied for and received something called a Gold Card and a Wic Card. These cards are paid for by the taxpayers and are part of entitlement programs for people who are un- or under-employed. They receive 100% of their health care free and the Wic Card holders receive free food for their children. These people do not pay into the system--they pay no taxes at all. We are all paying for them. That sounds like I'm backing up your argument doesn't it? But the point I'm trying to make is that those families should not be demeaned or put down or made fun of, or denied an opportunity to work and pay for their own health care. Obese people are denied these things all the time. They are immediately judged to be unhealthy, lazy, unproductive, costly, undisciplined, and ignorant BASED ONLY ON THEIR APPEARANCE. That is DISCRIMINATION.

 

Ok, well yeah, you did just back up my point. In regard to your other comments - I would NEVER seek to cause others discomfort or pain by making light of their situation. As far as how obese people are being perceived, I think you're making a large generalization, I'm sure not everyone views people this way. Sure some do, and they're small minded and unfeeling, but I'm not one of them, and I never have been.

 

Every life insurance policy written in America is based on a template and adjusted to fit the individual. That includes premiums. Smokers pay a higher premium and their payout is structured differently. The same with diabetics, and obese people, and people of a certain age, etc. People in high-risk occupations pay higher insurance premiums too. That is not discrimination.

 

Discrimination is looking at a group of people and treating them poorly, denying them the same rights and privileges that others have, based on whatever it is that puts them in a group.

 

I agree. And that was the jist of my post. People with higher risk of capitalization on insurance policies drive prices up.

 

 

It was meant to be nasty and sarcastic. It does have to do with the discussion since you were using currency and cost as a basis for discrimination. And actually, its not a generalization. We do have a problem with ILLEGAL immigration in this country. Someone who comes into this country (or any other country) illegally -- that is, against the law, is committing a crime--hence the word ILLEGAL. There are many, many ways to enter the country legally. I work with lots of expats and have processed enough paperwork for legal immigration to know the difference.

 

Well, for one I wasn't actually saying we should enact discrimination against anyone. Nor was I trying to justify anything with a cost basis. The original poster's question was some what (a lot) leading and I just replied back to that one particualr statement to present an example of how obese people could have different treatment based on their condition.

 

 

I was sticking to the original topic. Taken in that context, yes--- it did sound like you were arguing that cost = permission to name-call.

 

I disagree. I've re-read my post and I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion.

 

 

Smokers pay a higher rate themselves, and/or receive fewer benefits. Look at any health care plan at any company. It may be structured for that in the future for obese people. THAT is why so many agencies (like the IRS) are pushing to have fat or obesity labeled as an illness or disease. Because legally it opens up insurance companies to charge more or set different premiums, and cover less, or allow for a different structure so that some surgeries and radical lifestyle changes can be covered under an insurance plan. It will cost the average taxpayer no more than covering a gay spouse will cost. The opportunity to work and earn money and pay for insurance is what I’m talking about. Denying that based on appearance or weight is discrimination!

 

Sure denying it is discrimination, no where did I mention anything about it denying anything. All I said is exactly what you just said above, that the percentage of obese people in the states today are now being held accountable for increasing costs in health care.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets look at the stats realistically and not make it so political.

\

 

 

Now were talking.

 

I got the information below from The Lewin Group – based on 1999 dollars. Keep in mind that the study relied on published data on the costs of the specific comorbid diseases. There is probably some amount of double-counting in the figure which could not be adjusted--according to The Lewin Group.

 

Obesity Costs in Relation to the Co-Morbidities (1999 dollars in billions)

 

Disease: Arthritis

Direct Cost of Obesity: $7.4

Direct Cost of Disease: $23.1

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 32%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 68%

--------so, 68% of people with Arthritis are not obese

 

Disease: Breast Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $2.1

Direct Cost of Disease: $10.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 21%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 79%

--------so, 79% of people with Breast Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: Heart Disease

Direct Cost of Obesity: $30.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $101.8

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 30%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 70%

--------so, 70% of people with Heart Disease are not obese

 

Disease: Colorectal Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $2.0

Direct Cost of Disease: $10.0

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 20%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 80%

--------so, 80% of people with Colorectal Cancer disease are not obese

 

Disease: Diabetes (Type 2)

Direct Cost of Obesity: $20.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $47.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 43%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 57%

--------so, 57% of people with Diabetes (Type 2) are not obese

 

Disease: Endometrial Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $2.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 24%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 76%

--------so, 76% of people with Endometrial Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: ESRD

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.0

Direct Cost of Disease: $14.9

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 20%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 80%

--------so, 80% of people with ESRD are not obese

 

Disease: Gallstones

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $7.7

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 45%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 55%

--------so, 55% of people with Gallstones are not obese

 

Disease: Hypertension

Direct Cost of Obesity: $9.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $24.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 39%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 61%

--------so, 61% of people with Hypertension are not obese

 

Disease: Liver Disease

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.4

Direct Cost of Disease: $9.7

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 35%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 65%

--------so, 65% of people with Liver Disease are not obese

 

Disease: Low Back Pain

Direct Cost of Obesity: $3.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $19.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 18%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 82%

--------so, 82% of people with Low Back Pain are not obese

 

Disease: Renal Cell Cancer

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.5

Direct Cost of Disease: $1.6

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 31%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 69%

--------so, 69% of people with Renal Cell Cancer are not obese

 

Disease: Obstructive Sleep Apnea

Direct Cost of Obesity: $0.2

Direct Cost of Disease: $0.4

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 50%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 50%

--------so, 50% of people with Obstructive Sleep Apnea are not obese

 

Disease: Stroke

Direct Cost of Obesity: $8.1

Direct Cost of Disease: $29.5

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 27%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 73%

--------so, 73% of people with Stroke are not obese

 

Disease: Urinary Incontinence

Direct Cost of Obesity: $7.6

Direct Cost of Disease: $29.2

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 26%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 74%

--------so, 74% of people with Urinary Incontinence are not obese

 

Total Direct Cost of Obesity: $102.2

Direct Cost of Diseases: $331.4

Direct Cost of Obesity as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 31%

Direct Cost of Other as a Percentage of Total Direct Cost of Disease: 69%

--------so, 69% of people with these diseases are NOT obese.

 

Where is your Vast Majority?

 

Hoke...we're right back to my original post - $100 billion in costs related to obesity.

 

And as far as your question of "Where is your Vast Majority?" that stats your posted above really don't prove anything from a macro perspective. Let me expalin.

 

Ok, so we know that 57% of people with Diabetes (Type 2) are not obese. But what we don't know, as this doesn't provide the info is how many of the 43% of people with T2 Diabetes that are obese also have other corresponding illnesses.

 

So now we know that 43% in the US with T2 D are obese. How many also have corresponding issues? I don't know...

 

And do you really think ANY of those are acceptable percentages? Are you cool with the fact that a full 1/3 of the costs for all of those diseases ARE directly related to obesity?

 

I'm not judging here, I'm just saying that maybe as a nation we should look at this differently.

 

Take care,

 

WA

[Barby]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Who here is more than 30 pounds overweight? Just curious.

 

PS-Barby, are you still dating that loser?

 

 

Number one...it's really none of your business who is overweight...let me guess you're going to say the ones who stood up for "obese" people are all "overweight" Give me a break please! I am overweight and not ashamed to admit it. I'm considered a "smaller bbw" I wear about a size 14-16 depends on the style or how baggy I want what I'm wearing to fit me. (not that it matters discrimination is wrong no period).

 

Am I still dating Oscar? (that loser as you so rudely put it) (though from "i can believe it" posts I read I'd be careful about calling someone a loser but that's a whole other story) yes I am still with Oscar and I mentioned in the thread I posted last time under my previous SN (which I no longer have access to that email so I created a new SN here to go along w/ my new email) anyway he has been in therapy since this whole incident and has not been so jealous (no longer calls w/ accusations or questioning my actions, has stopped picking arguments, ect) he is very attentive, sweet, he has toned down his attitude, and is being 100% supportive w/ whatever I do or say now. (within reason obviously he hasn't lost who he is and doesn't just go along with whatever I say if he has a difference in opinion).

 

We don't argue like we did nor has it became physical nor threatened to become physical since...I don't "give up" on people and in this case that's working in my favor. He's a great guy who needed some help with his past anger issues and thankfully since he's getting the help things are working out well for himself and for us as a couple.

[Mr Spock]

Number one...it's really none of your business who is overweight...let me guess you're going to say the ones who stood up for "obese" people are all "overweight" Give me a break please! I am overweight and not ashamed to admit it. I'm considered a "smaller bbw" I wear about a size 14-16 depends on the style or how baggy I want what I'm wearing to fit me. (not that it matters discrimination is wrong no period).

 

Am I still dating Oscar? (that loser as you so rudely put it) (though from "i can believe it" posts I read I'd be careful about calling someone a loser but that's a whole other story) yes I am still with Oscar and I mentioned in the thread I posted last time under my previous SN (which I no longer have access to that email so I created a new SN here to go along w/ my new email) anyway he has been in therapy since this whole incident and has not been so jealous (no longer calls w/ accusations or questioning my actions, has stopped picking arguments, ect) he is very attentive, sweet, he has toned down his attitude, and is being 100% supportive w/ whatever I do or say now. (within reason obviously he hasn't lost who he is and doesn't just go along with whatever I say if he has a difference in opinion).

 

 

Did you think I was implying you were fat Barby? Tuck those mini talons back in, before I unleash my full sized ones. I know you're fat, because you post your picture. It's not hard to miss.

 

I was curious as to where everyone was coming from. I've been known to carry an extra few pounds. I know quite a few people that are over 50 pounds overweight and I don't pass judgement on them. In fact, when I was younger I used to defend kids that were picked on due to weight. I would like to know if it's the fat people on here who are more accepting of obesity or is it a mix(what's the correct term? Fat? Obese? Large, and Loving it?)So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. I'm far from obese, and I stick up for obese people. I couldn't stand it when kids were excluded because they were heavy.

 

And I called Oscar a loser because he HIT you. And I was concerned about your welfare, and concerned for you as you were so unhappy at the time. I fail also to see how you would label me as a loser simply because I've engaged in another relationship with a MM. Nice of you to drag that into this post though-as if it would bother me. Anyways, pettiness reaps pettiness-back on topic.

 

So Barby, you're fat then. And angry-who else? Height/weight ratios? I'm about 5'10 and 160. On a good day.

[Barby]

Okay well I got offended because you called Oscar a loser which he is NOT. We both made mistakes and in turn it got out of control...it's happened to a LOT of people. How would I not get offended when anyone calls someone I'm deeply in love with a loser?? Yes it was petty to drag the other post in here and for that I will be big enough to apologize (( I'm sure more will be said about what I said))) (sorry seriously) I get way into any thread I post in which I know is silly but a LOT of us do.

 

Did you think I was implying you were fat Barby? Tuck those mini talons back in, before I unleash my full sized ones. I know you're fat, because you post your picture. It's not hard to miss.

 

Yes I am "fat" angry no I have no reason to be angry except at the "loser" comment but since yes people on here only heard MY side of things which were painted worse than they were out of pure anger at the time I can see how you could come to the conclusion that he's a "loser" because people always want to believe that someone can NOT change...sometimes this is true, sometimes it's not.

 

I'm aware you can tell that I am heavyset "fat" whatever from my picture...I will never be ashamed of who I am if so I wouldn't have posted my pic (though I grow bored with my avatar from time to time and change it a bit).

 

I'm glad to hear that you've defended "fat kids" but I can only see how your "poll" will open the door to more people pointing fingers saying "see that's why they say it's wrong cuz maybe they are FAT" and that isn't the point of THIS thread!

 

Anyhoo...the point doesn't matter cuz it's been turned into "it costs american's X amount of dollars...." I just meant to discuss that it's wrong (and for some it's ok i guess) to discriminate against "fat" people because they LOOK different....I realize it would change and I like a good debate but I still don't see the point in dragging someone's height and weight into this debate.

[fattypatty]

Ok I've read enough. I could only read to like the third page and I'm busting with things to say, so here goes:

 

#1. Fat people DO get discriminated against. Period.

#2. The total B.S. about the airplane seats should work both ways. If one fat person should have to pay for two tickets, one skinny person should have to pay 1/2 price. If I can fit two ppl in one seat, in one seatbelt, give me two for one! Make it a two way street.

#3. It sucks to be skinny. It sucks to be fat. I've been both! In my opinion, it sucks WORSE to be fat. I couldn't break a hundred pounds out of high school and NOW I weigh a wopping 150!!! Yeah and I think I'm fat, REAL fat (I'm size 12-14 for those wondering). I'm 5'3" by the way. I work my fat ass out three times a week too. I'm just FAT.

#4. Society will have no choice but to finally accept FAT people because everyone here is getting FATTER and we are going to be the majority. If you won't hire "FAT'S" then you will have to do without work. Take a look at the statistics. We are becoming more everyday (no pun intented).

#5. I love my boyfriend's belly! It's kinda a little big. I absolutely love it. It's fluffy and it's just my size. Seeing my fulfillment, I now try to stick to men my in my size ratio. I don't wanna weigh more than my man, it's a preference for me.

 

Fat people are not crummy people! Neither are skinny people! Neither are blacks, whites, ANYONE! We are *all* God's children. Accept people or zip it!

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by wideawake

I'm not judging here, I'm just saying that maybe as a nation we should look at this differently.

 

 

Yes. Lets look at the other two thirds!

 

I am not denying that obesity is itself a health risk. What I am saying is that it is no more of a health risk than most other lifestyles.

 

I'm saying that obese people should not be discriminated against. If they are, they should have the same rights as say a black person, or Jewish person, to sue for equality---such as in the workplace. "Thin" should not be a job requirement---but it is. They disguise the discrimination by asking for people with a "professional appearance" -- hint if you are looking for a job: Professional Appearance = Thin.

 

Many People still believe that all obese people are lazy. Many People still believe that all obese people are ignorant. Many People still believe that all obese people are obese for exactly the same reasons! Poor upbringing, low class, lazy, ignorant, yada yada yada.

 

Many People still believe that all obese people have high cholesterol or heart disease or whatever, or if they don't have it yet -- they will. Many People still believe that all obese people die from their obesity. All of these beliefs by so many ignorant people are fostered and encouraged by those who use insurance costs or statistics and classifications by government agencies to segregate obese people from non-obese people, and then lump all obese people together.

 

There are people in America who still believe that all black people came from Africa. I'm in Texas, but I'm from Michigan. There are still people here who will ask where I'm from and I'll say Michigan and they will say "Oh, Detroit." I'm not from Detroit. Not all obese people are obese for the same reasons, yet they are all grouped together and treated like third or fourth class citizens. It's OKAY in America to discriminate against a fat person.

 

Every time an obese person calls in sick, its not like they are calling in and saying "I'm feeling especially obese today, so I won't be in" and yet so many, many people confuse the facts and the statistics.

 

Not all obese people are unhappy either! My SIL was a very optimistic and happy and gregarious person, she was admired and loved by many. She just happened to weigh over 400 pounds. She was as active as the rest of us, led an active life-style, she was graceful and flexible and smart, and she didn't have an obesity-related illnesses. She died of cancer.

 

The sad thing is that so many people kept on talking about how obese people are lazy or slow moving, etc. that my SIL ignored her symptoms. I accepted it too. I figured her back ache was because her belly and breasts were so large. My brother (her husband) didn't pursue it either--he bought into the popular belief that all obese people have to do to feel better and be well, is lose weight, therefore - there can't be a serious health problem.

 

She increased her exercise as much as she could, but the pain kept getting worse. She said something to her doctor and he said "lose weight" and that was it. He took her blood pressure (good) and listened to her heart, and put her on a diet. He LOOKED at her weight and made a determination that millions of doctors make. She accepted that her pain was from fat because society and her doctor told her that was the case.

 

When she finally collapsed a year later they discovered the cancer was all over. If she had been properly diagnosed, she might be alive. Now, she's another statistic and counted as a fat-related death. It was the fat-head (pun intended) doctors and society that contributed to her death, not her weight. Her obesity did not cause her cancer.

 

So, how I think America should address the problem is by educating people about obesity and obese people and stop treating them like they don't deserve the same rights and privileges and opportunities that everyone else enjoys simply because they are obese. Stop twisting statistics around to support discrimination all the while claiming that its not supporting discrimination. Focus on heart disease in humans. Not heart disease in obese humans. By constantly using obesity in an argument, a person is in reality tieing obesity to negatives in the minds and beliefs of others. It's so subtle that many people don't realize they are doing it.

[Mr Spock]

There are people in America who still believe that all black people came from Africa. I'm in Texas, but I'm from Michigan. There are still people here who will ask where I'm from and I'll say Michigan and they will say "Oh, Detroit." I'm not from Detroit. Not all obese people are obese for the same reasons, yet they are all grouped together and treated like third or fourth class citizens. It's OKAY in America to discriminate against a fat person.

 

 

Actually Hokey, it's been debated that ALL life originated in Africa. Are you saying that people from Detroit are treated like fourth class citizens?

 

What you're trying to do Hokey is say that the majority of obese people are fat because they're fat. Which isn't true. Look back to when people actually had to work for a living-when WORK meant that you burned calories. Housewives in the 40's didn't go jogging because washing the laundry by hand burned enough calories (combined with other things)to balance with what they consumed. Also look at portions. They've increased over the years.

 

What I am saying is that it is no more of a health risk than most other lifestyles.

 

Sure. Being 400 pounds may be less of a health risk than say a chain smoking skydiver who drinks a case of beer a day, but what OTHER lifestyles were you referring to?

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Actually Hokey, it's been debated that ALL life originated in Africa. Are you saying that people from Detroit are treated like fourth class citizens?

Actually, yes. When I first moved to Texas and for several years afterward, Michiganders were targed for crime. Car's with MI tags had their tires slashed regularly, etc. However, that is not what I was saying. I don' t know how else to explain it in a way that you would understand.

 

 

What you're trying to do Hokey is say that the majority of obese people are fat because they're fat.

No, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I did not say that at all. I said the opposite of that. I said that many people think that all fat people are fat because they overeat, or are lazy or any one of a dozen other stereo-types. There are people who think that all any fat person has to do is eat less and they will magically lose weight and be healthy. That is a false assumption and implies a lack of discipline or laziness on the part of every obese person. Some obese people would lose weight by cutting calories, but not all. Some obese people are lazy and undiciplined. Some not-obese people are too. You can't look at a person and know what their lifestyle is, or their personality, or their habits, without knowing them. But many people do assume to know what the lifestyle of every obese person is, and that assumption is one of laziness, undiciplined, depressed, poor, uneducated, etc. simply based on their size.

 

Sure. Being 400 pounds may be less of a health risk than say a chain smoking skydiver who drinks a case of beer a day, but what OTHER lifestyles were you referring to?

How about anyone who gets no exercise? Lives a very sedate lifestyle? Sits behind a computer all day with no physical activity? Not all thin people are active and healthy or lead healthy lifestyles----but you wouldn't know that to look at them. You see someone wearing a size 8 and they look nice and one assumes that the person must be healthy or active or eat right and exercise. But that doesn't mean that they do. Maybe they just don't gain weight. Maybe their body metabolism keeps them slim. Maybe they are doing drugs or something that keeps their body slim. But they are automatically judged in a positive light and not discriminated against.

 

Are you assuming that all obese people are unhealthy or eat fried food all the time, or sweets, or fatty foods, etc.? Are you assuming that all thin people are healthy and eat a balanced diet of fruit, protein, grains, etc.?

[Mr Spock]

I try not to "assume" anything about anyone.

 

 

Have you ever watched the Dr Phil (or was it oprah) episode that was based on this EXACT pov? They had several women and men who all were over 100 pounds overweight and they were crying the same obesity warrior cry. "We're normal!!" It borders on mental illness.

 

 

Being 400 pounds is NOT HEALTHY. Unless you're a Gorilla. It's just not. You can scream fat discrimination until the cows come home (no pun intended) but don't try and convince me that it's normal or even good to be a hundred pounds fatter than what is reccomended by a doctor.

 

What you are stating is basically that SOME people are fat through no fault of their own and we should praise them for it. That's fine. I am sure there are many morbidly obese people that eat grains, fruits and veggies and go for regular cardio vascular aerobics. I'd like to meet them. Did you also know that many people with obesity have secret eating binges? It's like binging without the purging.

 

I'd also like to point out that even if you're only eating things that are good for you, if you eat enough of it you'll still gain weight.

[sinner]

Being 400 pounds is NOT HEALTHY. Unless you're a Gorilla.

 

 

 

ROTFLMAO!!!!

 

[MadamSwirl]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Did you think I was implying you were fat Barby? Tuck those mini talons back in, before I unleash my full sized ones. I know you're fat, because you post your picture. It's not hard to miss.

 

Your post is an attack. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the guidelines of this forum. That was a rather low blow, my friend. I hope for barby's purpose that they remove your insult.

 

As a long-time lurker, I make a notation:

 

And now for the first time in quite some time, Barby (miz_Barby) now has removed her picture from her avatar. Mr. Spock, you should consider an apology for the brutal comment that you made. You reinforced what her original post was regarding.

 

Barby, please continue to post your creative avatars of you and your mate!

 

Let's all keep civilized interactions and respect here.

 

P.S. Mr Spock: If you want to post YOUR picture, feel free and we will tell you OUR honest opinions.

[Mr Spock]

Madame Swirl, it's been resolved. I can't mod my own post after a certain time lapse. Do you have anything useful to contribute to the thread?

 

You see, Barby had stated she was entirely comfortable with who she is. So how can CONFIRMING that I am aware that she is overweight be an attack? She said it first, not me. As far as the warriors are concerned, fat isn't an insult. I like round, womanly curves. I refuse to buy into the notion that obesity is normal. That it's not a HUGE factor in health problems.

[Samson]

Have had less time to post recently with the beginning of school. So far so good, with the one (or two) possible exceptions of having stepped on some rather sensative toes of colleagues. Having become something of an expert in this area, I have for some time (the past decade and a half) tried to change my character to accomodate the thin skinned.

 

It is impossible.

 

So, instead, I've almost completely given up caring about this population.

 

[size=18]Fu*k 'em, I say!

 

Either they're:

 

1. going to grow less fragile egoes, or they're,

2. going to need to get used to me damaging their delicate sensabilities.

3. they can simply avoid me.

 

(Delilah's taking door number #3)

 

What really annoys is the superscilliuos attitude this group takes: They are always the pitiful victims of the beastly behavior of practically everyone else on the planet, and that it is everyone else's fault that they are constantly being hurt, abused, victimized, cheated, etc., etc.

 

Well, I'm done bending over backward for these wussies that have framed their psyche around continuously being attacted to their mother's teat.

[sinner]

Fu*k 'em, I say!

 

So Samson, my friend, exactly how do you really feel?

 

 

I believe the 3S's--Spock, Samson and Sinner--are too hard core for most of this crew.

 

I see much needed sensitivity training in our future...

[Samson]

I've already failed Dale Carnegie>>>>>>>>>>>>>TWICE!

 

Big Surprise, huh?

[Matilda]

Originally posted by Samson

I've already failed Dale Carnegie>>>>>>>>>>>>>TWICE!

 

Big Surprise, huh?

 

Yes, I'm shocked!!!

[amerikajin]

I don't think there's any argument with what you've said: any kind of bashing is wrong.

 

That said, people are a**h***s sometimes. If you're fat, you're going to have to live with being discriminated against. The best thing you can do is to keep yourself in the best possible shape at all times. You may never be thin, but you can be thinner and healthier.

 

I'm not in any way defending those who attack obese people with malice. I have disabilities myself, and although surgery has helped me cosmetically, I'll never forget what it was like to grow up living with the stigma of being different -- I know it stings.

 

However, I also keep myself in the best possible shape. That's not only good for my looks, it's good for my health and well-being.

 

Fat people lose weight all the time and many of them never gain it back.

 

Why?

 

Because they make lifestyle choices that help transform them.

[DerangedAngel]

Cartoon reminded me of this thread.

 

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040813/walthandelsman.jpg

 

-DA

[moimeme]

1. People, somehow, believe that it is fair to make assumptions about others' behaviour and then to attack them for that behaviour. Without living someone else's life, you cannot assume that you know about him. ANYTHING about him. And therefore to conclude something like

 

A vast majority of obese persons are obese because they are unhealthy, eat too much, and live lethargic lifestyles

 

is intellectually impoverished. Without having facts at your disposal, you cannot make such a statement. You, having been a victim of obesity induced by medicine should understand this of all people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

2. There are reasons why people do things which are, logically, not good for them. I don't exercise as much as I ought and I'm still not eating enough fruits or veggies. I eat 'em, but not my five-a-day. Why? I don't think about it enough. Other things distract me. It takes time. Sometimes I'm too hungry to want to bother preparing them. Are these serious character flaws? Well maybe they're flaws but I don't pretend to be 100% perfect all the time. I'd like to be, but it takes SO MUCH WORK!

 

Which brings me to

 

3. I'm willing to bet that nobody here who claims a right to complain about obesity is 'without sin' himself or herself. As someone else pointed out, they'll speed or not wear seatbelts or not exercise or any number of other things which are also impulse-driven and unhealthy. I got news for you. There is not one single human who is perfectly self-disciplined, so to pretend that you are somehow better than somebody else because you have self-discipline in areas they do not is ridiculous; doubtless they have it in areas you do not.

 

4. It is bogus to try to pretend that obesity is healthy. It is equally bogus to claim that all obese people are unhealthy. However, since some obesity is due to people overeating for various reasons (Oprah's guru says that eating is a way to fill a need and it sounds very plausible), and if there are health issues at hand, then it is useful to identify obesity as a health risk, look for causes, and aim for cures. T

 

That people do have disabilities and disorders and illnesses doesn't mean they would in an ideal world. In an ideal world, nobody would have any suffering. So if people suffer physically from their obesity, it should be acknowledged as a health problem and people who suffer because of it should be helped. There seem to be a whole bunch of complex factors, from genes to other physical mechanisms, not to mention psychological ones, that can contribute. There will always be obese people, and many of them will be healthy, but for those who aren't, it's as important to help them regain their health as it is for anyone who has a problem condition.

 

5. It's funny, but a good idea! Why can't we get fast HEALTHY meal? If more people called in for it, we could probably get McDonalds to offer celery sticks AND fries.

 

Don't they there? Certainly here the fast food places have been offering things like salads and wraps and at least one of them (maybe Burger King) is offering kids carrot sticks and milk to go with dinners instead of fries and pop.

 

6. Fat people lose weight all the time and many of them never gain it back.

 

Why?

 

Because they make lifestyle choices that help transform them.

 

Also because they manage to reach a psychological place that allows them to make that lifestyle choice or that causes them to. In the end, it's all about what goes on inside, and even our chemicals. Eating food, like so many other pleasures, increases the 'pleasure' hormones in our brains. Scientists are doing a lot more research on how this works and may be able to turn it off for people to help them kick habits. But we are creatures who seek pleasure and food is one pleasure. Some people find it to be the one pleasure in otherwise difficult lives. It's tremendously difficult to say to someone 'you must cease having pleasure'. That you or I may have found other ways to make our chemicals happy doesn't mean it's simple or easy for others to do and so they don't deserve scorn for not having done so.

[midori]

Thanks moimeme! I think it's important to remember that, as with many of the controversial topics that get discussed at LoveShack, there are many facets to this issue. People who haven't had to deal with weight problems haven't walked in the shoes of those who have, and it's important to bear that in mind when making assessments and judgments. At the same time, to silence others' questions and opinions with moralistic condemnations of people's intentions and sensitivity does nothing to further the discussion in a meaningful way.

 

The original question of this thread is: is it all right to view overweight people in a negative light and to treat them accordingly? A seemingly simple question at first, and I think most people agree that it is not okay to be hurtful or cruel to someone because of their size. But buried in that question are deeper issues, of cause and effect, and assumptions about responsibility and prejudice, that are not as clear-cut.

 

When emotions run high, I find it's useful to try to not assume that someone with an opposing view is being deliberately provocative, or has bad intentions towards you or the view you represent. Sometimes in discussions on LoveShack.org people do try to deliberately provoke, no doubt about that. But I think that people are often expressing their honest opinions and beliefs -- even if it turns out that those opinions are unfounded or those beliefs stem from misinformation.