moimeme Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Thanks, Midori. If I may add one thing (climbs onto soapbox ) People, me included to my everlasting shame, can lose sight of the fact that every living, breathing soul before us is a human with a heart that can be broken. We are very fragile creatures - we know that because of our own hearts - yet we still manage to depersonalize the 'other' - the gay person, the fat person, the non-white person, the other nationality - as though somehow they are not equally fragile. It's damn rough work to keep the thought always present that this other creature is possessed of a heart - but that way lies, IMHO, the best of humanity. Inside the person who has to be cut out of his house is exactly the same sort of fragile heart that is inside of every person reading my blurb here. We need to always remember that. If we ever want to help someone, it'll not be by breaking that heart, issuing insults, or criticizing. (climbs off soapbox to drink coffee and eat a couple of toffee-coated chocolate macadamias because I'm not doing without pleasures entirely no matter how good it would be for me) Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Samson: Fu*k 'em, I say! LOL Samson, I see it didn't take long! Pace yourself, man. You have a whole term to survive. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 What is "Dale Carnegie?" Harrassment in the workplace training? Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Mr. Spock: Dale Carnegie is training in the workplace that is harrassment. Pure torture. Especially for those of us who must carefully walk through life on eggshells that represent "the very fragile hearts of the delicate creatures we all represent." Meanon: You're probably right. I need a mantra, and internal chant to sustain my sanity among these creatures during the remainin 175 days. Perhaps a mental picture would help: Envision, all these creatures placed into a communal wet paper bag, and watching as they try to determine how to get out without hurting one anothers delicate feelings. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Harrasment NOTHING to me. I've been through it, several times. There comes a point in time when PC gets rediculous-when the heart gets SO fragile it's better to carve it out with a steak knife than allow it to pump weak, poisonous blood through the system. Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 the heart gets SO fragile it's better to carve it out with a steak knife than allow it to pump weak, poisonous blood through the system. MR. SPOCK!..................................IMLMAO! Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 There comes a point in time when PC gets rediculous-when the heart gets SO fragile it's better to carve it out with a steak knife than allow it to pump weak, poisonous blood through the system. Woman, you are cold. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Parts of me are warm though. And that's all that matters in the end. Hardi Har. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Dale Carnegie is known particularly for the book he wrote called 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' - which, to fit today's different standards, should be called "How Not to Be An @$$h(oh!)le". Because people who claim that it's bogus to be PC and that it's stupid to be nice to others are, basically, people who could use that book. In the second title. IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 It's not bogus to use terms to describe people and conditions that aren't considered offensive-it's bogus when being politically correct starts to severly hamper freedom of speech. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Things taken to extreme are almost always bad. The trick is finding a fair application for stuff like PCness. And some of its use is showing people why things they think and say should perhaps be rethought. Can it go too far? Sure. So then rather than ditch it, modulate it so it has the intended result without ending up excessively restrictive. Not an easy task, clearly. Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Save the "health" part of it and just tell me why you think it's okay to be mean cuz they look different. (and that's only extra meat not deformities or anything) Give me your opinion on this what do you think? Arguably, mizbarbie, the thread starter, opened the door to non-PC discourse when she invited people to justify fatty discrimination and/or ridicule. That type of "see how hard you can hit me" discussion opener is going to invite some hard punches in a public forum. While most posters will decry fatty prejudices, there will always be a few who believe, rightly or wrongly, that fatty discrimination is justified if only as a matter of esthetics. Finally, midori's point that " it's useful to try to not assume that someone with an opposing view is being deliberately provocative, or has bad intentions towards you or the view you represent" is especially well taken, here, given this Thread's open invitation for expressions of anti-fatty opinion. So Spock, you can put away your steak knife. Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I want to beat the $hit out of them sometimes....Just because it isn't done to me doesn't mean that it doesn't affect me...pulls at my heart strings anyway. I suppose the "anti-fattys" have their own less than PC contingent? Now, about "pulling on heart strings"...............................hmmmmm...............Mr. Spock!.....................To the operating room!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 God, all this talk of "steaks" and "knives" and meaty surrounding heart tissue is making me HUNGRY. As I sit here, drooling over food, I can feel my "F*ck Handles" poking out over my pants........ Link to post Share on other sites
havNfun Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Well I would post my thoughts on this but our lovely moderators will just delete them. So I guess I'll learn how to have opinions more in line with their's before I post more. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 It isn't that you need 'opinions more in line with theirs' at all. People don't get moderated for disagreeing with moderators. They get edited for being rude, offensive, or abusive. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Originally posted by Mr Spock I try not to "assume" anything about anyone. You do it all the time. You assume that you can speak for me here. I get your point. Fat is not healthy. But have you got any idea of the point I am making? I don't care why a person is not healthy -- poor health is NO EXCUSE for discrimination and it does not justify humiliation. Have you ever watched the Dr Phil (or was it oprah) episode that was based on this EXACT pov? They had several women and men who all were over 100 pounds overweight and they were crying the same obesity warrior cry. "We're normal!!" It borders on mental illness. No, I don't watch those shows. But, I think the warrior cry is probably more like "don't discriminate against me because of my appearance" There's an old adage that says the same thing: Don't judge a book by its cover. Just because someone is obese -- doesn't matter if they are healthy or not -- does not mean that it's okay to discriminate against them. Maybe weight scales should have keynotes by the numbers: At such-and-such weight, you lose xyz civil right. Between this and that weight, you lose the right fight against discrimination. Why are they singled out in TV commercials, and advertising as the stupid one, or the clumsy one, or the one who is the loser? Why is that okay? That fosters the belief that fat people are of less value (ie: worthless) than a person who is not fat or obese. Being 400 pounds is NOT HEALTHY. Unless you're a Gorilla. It's just not. You can scream fat discrimination until the cows come home (no pun intended) but don't try and convince me that it's normal or even good to be a hundred pounds fatter than what is reccomended by a doctor. And you know that every single 400 pound person in the world is not healthy, how? How do you know this? Some chart in a doctor's office? We should all weigh the same? That is BS. Even the doctors and so-recognized health experts cannot agree on which chart, if any, is best. They can't even all agree on whether eggs are good or bad for people! You are grouping ALL people who meet a criteria (weight in this case) together and treating them all the same. THAT is discrimination. You don't KNOW every person in the world, or just in the USA who weighs 400 pounds do you? How about athletes? Sports players? They are public figures, but there are private citizens who are also heavy and healthy. What you are stating is basically that SOME people are fat through no fault of their own and we should praise them for it. Again. Please Do Not try to put words in my mouth. You are not doing a very good job of it. If you want to ask me if that is what I'm saying, I'll gladly try to clarify it for you. I don't know where you get this "praise them for it" stuff!!! Point out exactly where I said or implied that. Tell me exactly how you came to the conclusion in any of my posts, that I said that. That's fine. I am sure there are many morbidly obese people that eat grains, fruits and veggies and go for regular cardio vascular aerobics. I'd like to meet them. Did you also know that many people with obesity have secret eating binges? It's like binging without the purging. Yep, there are. And, yes - I do know about the lifestyles and habits of two obese people (three if my late SIL can be counted) and I know that there are no secret binges in their lives. I know that are not the only obese people in the world with healthy lifestyles either. I know why they are obese and it's not due to laziness or stupidity or depression (BTW: Did you know that obesity can also be a side-effect of depression? And that depression is sometimes very difficult to treat because it's constantly reinforced by people who treat the obese so poorly? It's a Catch-22 sometimes) I'd also like to point out that even if you're only eating things that are good for you, if you eat enough of it you'll still gain weight. I know that. A lot of people do not realize that though. This is what I know: Living causes death. Diseases happen to people of all backgrounds and regardless of their environment, upbringing, size, color, genetics, occupation, etc. Some diseases are more prominent in one group of people vs. another. A balanced diet of fruit, vegetables, proteins, and grain is necessary to adequately fuel the human body. Exercise is needed to distribute that fuel appropriately and keep the human body functioning. Diet and exercise alone will not cure a disease or a malfunction or the naturally occurring wearing-out of the human body (aging). And no two people, even within a given segregated group, are the same, nor do their bodies process fuel the same, or require the same exercises. One group of people is considered obese, but within that group are many other groups, and within those groups are individuals. SOME of those individuals will or have developed a disease or malfunction that is linked to their overall group dynamic of obesity. However, of those individuals who do have a disease or malfunction, they make up less than half of the percentage of humans with that disease or malfunction. The whole group dynamic - all obese people, are targeted by the majority of people on the planet, and they are discriminated against. Their civil rights are brushed aside. They can't sue for job discrimination, they are ridiculed and made fun of and used by the majority of people. They are paid less, passed over for promotions, not accepted into clubs or organizations, are not represented in mainstream America as anything other than casual or non-professional, or less intelligent, or burdensome members of the human race - living on the outskirts of society. Not all individuals treat the obese this way. I'm not saying that. There are obese people in good jobs, clubs, organizations, and speaking out. There are obese people who are valued and respected on an individual basis and by individuals. But on the whole - they are not. I am also not saying that obese people should have any special privileges nor are they entitled to anything other than the same rights and privileges and respect that any other person has a right to in their particular corner of the world. Including the right of legal representation to fight against harassment, job discrimination, consumer protection, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Actually, I don't make assumptions all the time. I most definitely do not think that all obese people are stupid. Or lazy (although due to their mass their idea of physical activity and mine may differ greatly, due to the restrictions placed on them by their weight)what I do think they are is FAT. Not evil. Just fat. Not ugly. I don't associate weight with beauty. The only 400 pound atheletes I am aware of are Sumo Wrestlers, Hokey. Even a man that's 6'4 and with good solid muscle tone is only pushing 260 (I know, I dated one) I am WELL aware that there are larger overweight persons who are considered healthy. Being 50 pounds overweight and being healthy is one thing. Weighing in excess of 400 pounds is another. I'm happy that your family and friends don't secretly binge eat. I'm only saying that some people do. What would you like to see, personally, the nation do on a whole to END discrimination against really fat people? Link to post Share on other sites
sinner Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 As for laws against employment discrimination, being fat or size challenged, is not (at least yet) a legally protected characteristic as are sex, color, race, religion, national origin, age and disability in the USA. The list, however, keeps getting longer and longer. Some obese individuals have sued their employers under perceived or actual disability theories by virtue of the Americans with Disabilities Act. The ADA proscribes disability discrimination. The next wave of anti-discrimination law will probably involve appearance-based discrimination. Some cities, San Diego is one, have ordinances prohibiting employment discrimination on account of appearance. Legal protection for the unattractive. The last wave of anti-employment law will probably prohibit employment discrimination against stupid people. Employers will be prohibited from refusing to hire plain stupid people as long as the employer's legitimate business interests aren't threatened. Mark my words, the ugly and the stupid will get the last laugh. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 And the meek shall inherit the earth....... I think discrimination against the terminally stupid will be hard to prove-after all, quite a few go by the rule "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Mark my words, the ugly and the stupid will get the last laugh. No doubt they will....................... After all, they're writing the rule book. I'm not sure anyone has actually said that ALL people that are fat (defined by whatever social norm is in place at the present) are necessarily bad people. However are there are bad people that are fat? Right off the top of my head: Idi Amin (few will remember) Rosanne (IMHO) Frankly, that's about all I can recall. This discussion has brought to mind an incedent that happened this week at school that all, pro and con fat people might appreciate. An affable 14 year old African American male (Bryce) entered my class this week. I estimated his weight at around the dreaded 400 lb mark. He squezzed into one of the desks in the room that were no doubt, sensably built and economically bought in quantities for "average" 14 year olds. I had some experience last year with a similarly rotund student who solved the desk size problem by simply beaking off part of the desk designed to add to its stability. Happily, the desk was redundently engineered to accomodate for this eventuality, and it did not disintegrate under the additional poundage all year long. At any rate, I prepared my classroom this year for the inevitable need for greater space. I equipped the room with a large table with separate chair. In the case of no need, then it could be used for about 4 students to complete projects, or whatever. Ironically PC prevented ME (if you could imagine) from inviting Bryce to sit at the table spacifically oriented for his needs. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. On about the second or third day, Bryce himself asked if he could be reassigned to a seat at the table. With a big internal sigh and smile, I quickly switched him. My little story illustrates that accomodating the fat people is expensive 1. insurance costs rise because they are more likely to injure themselves, 2. they take resources that could be more effectively utilized (opportunity costs), 3. they require special accomodation that is often much more expensive. Conversely, the fatty can be worth the greater expense: Bryce is one of my favorite students. Pound for pound, I wouldn't trade him. Link to post Share on other sites
RowanRavyn Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Samson, I KNEW there was something I liked about you. Its been hard to figure out, mind you. None the less I knew it was there. Link to post Share on other sites
Matilda Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Well Samson, you just might pass the Dale Carnegie course yet. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Ha. No he won't. Not until he stops saying "Fatty" INSIDE his head. My mother's best friend is about 400 pounds. She has horses, and she doesn't ride because she's afraid of falling. The impact, I'm sure, would kill her. She's a wonderful woman, a teacher of 4-5, and her car has a permenent slope to the drivers side. I think she's funny, smart, witty. But she's aging, and her obesity will shorten her life span. HAS shortened her life span. She can't walk a block without getting heart palpitations. Every year she says she's going to lose weight. I worry for her because I like her. As far as I know, she suffers no discrimination-except she's never been married, and has no children, and as far as I know hasn't been on a date in 30 years. Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Not until he stops saying "Fatty" INSIDE his head. LOL........Mr. Spock's become the PC police! It must be one of the seven signs: The world might end tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts