asking for something back

[herenow]

I see where you are coming from to a degree, I just don't agree. I am not intentionally doing something with the sole intention of hurting my MM's wife. In this situation, the wife of the MM of the OP destroying something because she knew the OP wanted it back woudl be vindictive and done SOLELY to hurt her.

 

I never want anything back. I only give things I want him to have.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here though I don't think?

 

What if the BW throws it away (or the MM throws it away) because she (or he) feels: If the OW didn't care about this enough to keep it, then why should I?

 

Or the BW and MM just want to rid themselves of any reminder of the OW?

 

From an outsiders POV, I look at this gift as not that important if she was willing to give to a man who hasn't proved worthy of a sentimental family heirloom. Maybe the BW would see it that way too. Not vindicate, just not wanting the "gift" in their lives and not thinking it's important to the BW.

 

That is if the BW even knows about it or the MM even remembers or cares that he has it. We don't know anything about the gift or where it is. I admit it's all speculation.

 

In the end, she gave it to him knowing what kind of person he is. A man who has an affair and lies to his wife. IMO, it's his to do with what he wants. After all, isn't that why it's called "giving" a gift?

Edited January 11, 2013 by herenow

[MissBee]

Well, that would be a very foolish mistake for someone to make with me. I'd sue her ass because the possession would never have belonged to her.

 

I find it sort of comical the way so many people think this behavior by a BS is ok but the minute an OW/OM makes even the slightest mention of destruction or vengenece or retaliation they get called a bunny boiler.

 

I don't think there would be any grounds to sue.

 

If fooled gave this man a gift...it is no longer hers. That's the reality. In sentiment she may be attached to it, but it is not hers anymore and she cannot dictate what happens to it after. The MM can throw it away, give it to his wife, do anything he wants with it. It is not illegal for a MM (or anyone) to re-gift or allow another to be in control of a gift they were given, as now it is theirs so they can do with it as they wish.

 

You can't take someone to court because they allowed someone to destroy a gift you gave them. I gave my ex boyfriend a watch...it didn't belong to my dad or anything, but even if it did, if I gave it to him it's his. Upon breaking up...if he chooses to have his current gf/wife take charge of it...I can't and have no rights in that regard. It's not my property anymore...but his.

 

The problem is this gift is of sentimental value so fooled still feels some attachment to it although she gave it away. I definitely feel for her. But I doubt that means legally she is required to get it back or can sue if the wife destroys it. That case would probably be thrown put. But anyway, fooled, I agree with the courier idea. I do think part of you is rightfully upset at how he ended things and hence you want this gift back "because he isn't who you thought" but be clear that he may or may not return it and you cannot force that legally and if a part of you expecting some apology out of him along with the watch, it may not come. You did say you'd feel badly if he just mailed it and didn't say anything....and if so...you should really be honest about what you hope to gain here.

[MissBee]

perhaps you are assigning too much importance to yourself here...

 

it would be possible that destroying it would have nothing to do with you directly, but rather, destroying it would be destroying a reminder of a bad part of their lives together...

 

your feelings wouldn't be a consideration, as it wouldn't be about you...at most, they wouldn't be a factor in anyway other than that his wife may feel that your feelings deserve as much consideration as you give to hers...

 

many reconciling couples destroy all vestiges and reminders of an affair together...they may throw them away, burn them, shred them delete them, whatever...this has nothing to do with hurting the other man/woman...instead it has everything to do with moving on, and the other man/woman's feelings about the items are a non issue

 

In past relationships, when the relationship ended badly, I;d often throw out any reminders of it, not be vindictive but because I didn't want to be reminded of it...affairs may be no different

 

This is a good point.

 

When relationships have ended badly and I have thrown things out/put them away, it has never been because I am trying to hurt my ex...because realistically, how would he hurt, when chances are he wouldn't know I did it? I've never thrown out anything belonging to that person, just things they've given to me. I did it because I needed to move on and not because I was thinking about how it would hurt them.

 

Same in this case...as sentimental as the gift was...it's still a gift. Something you gave them and not something belonging to you that you left at their place or something. There was no agreement that it was contingent upon staying together...so no it is not like an engagement ring. An engagement ring obviously is given with the intent to marry. Giving someone something sentimental while dating is not the same, usually it's given in the moment/time you're together and all is well and you can't demand it back now when they leave you. Fooled has also never asked for it back...she's only thinking of it now..so it's not as though she has asked before and the MM/BS know and are destroying it to hurt her. If they threw it out before she has ever asked it is most likely as you've explained...them attempting to move on...and not them attempting to hurt her. I doubt they are sitting at home thinking about this item and about fooled's feelings about it. If it is thought of at all, I'm sure it's with their own feelings/marriage in mind.

 

I have definitely felt that way...don't get me wrong, but I knew realistically it was irrational.

[MissBee]

I don't think there would be any grounds to sue.

QUOTE]

There are legal grounds to do it, and there are ways around it but if someone did that to me, I wouldn't care if I won.

 

Because at that point it wouldn't matter to me what the final court decision was. If I got pushed to that point because she had maliciously and vindictivly destoyed something that she knew meant something to me then all bets are off. I'd no longer care if she was forced to think of it over the whole time we wandered through what can be a painfully slow court system.

 

Well if that would be worth it to you, then by all means.

 

I know if it were me it wouldn't bother me, maybe it would even be vindicating to someone who did it to hurt you, then they'd know they "won" as you're attempting to pursue a court case that has no merit because you're mad. I'd think the person suing me ridiculous and them being the one going through the trouble to file a lawsuit and all that. I'd go to court and watch as the judge tell them they're ridiculous and to get out of the court..then I'd laugh and go home.

[eleanorrigby]

There are legal grounds to do it, and there are ways around it but if someone did that to me, I wouldn't care if I won.

 

Because at that point it wouldn't matter to me what the final court decision was. If I got pushed to that point because she had maliciously and vindictivly destoyed something that she knew meant something to me then all bets are off. I'd no longer care if she was forced to think of it over the whole time we wandered through what can be a painfully slow court system.

 

lol this would end up one of those lawsuits that would make The Peoples Court love to persuade you to come onto their show.

 

I know a guy that got called by them recently because the situation he is in is so ridiculous, they think it would make an awesome episode!

[sweet_pea]

I don't understand how you would be able to sue someone over a possession that you gave away. It's not yours anymore, so whatever happens to it, with the new owner's permission, is fine... correct?

[herenow]

I don't think there would be any grounds to sue.

QUOTE]

There are legal grounds to do it, and there are ways around it but if someone did that to me, I wouldn't care if I won.

 

Because at that point it wouldn't matter to me what the final court decision was. If I got pushed to that point because she had maliciously and vindictivly destoyed something that she knew meant something to me then all bets are off. I'd no longer care if she was forced to think of it over the whole time we wandered through what can be a painfully slow court system.

 

But, if you gave it to her husband, she may think you don't want it anymore. How is the BW supposed to know what anything means to the OW? And, based on the fact that you don't seem to care what the BW thinks, why should she care what you think or care about?

 

BTW, it would probably get kicked out of court fast enough that she would not have to spend much time "thinking it over".

 

In any event, I think the people who say you are placing too much importance on the role the OW plays to a reconciling couple are quite right. The OW becomes irrelevant very quickly. If the item did get tossed it was most likley them wanting to get rid of anything to do with the affair. And, I think that argument would hold up in court if it came to that. No one is going to blame a married couple for moving on with their lives.

[sweet_pea]

Where's SidLyon when you need her? LOL

 

The lesson is that when you give something away you give up control of it.

 

...basically.

 

Anyway, I agree with most other posters, if you truly want this item back, ask a friend to get it for you. I'm sure that they'll be understanding and then you won't risk breaking NC and any other possible issues!

[eleanorrigby]

A lawsuit would be pointless. If I were brought to court for this nonsense, I'd just say I dropped the damn thing and it broke. Or i put it through the dishwasher or washing machine by mistake and it broke. Or I gave it away because it had been sitting under the dresser next to the dustbunnies and I thought it was junk.

 

Or better yet, what item?? I never saw the darn thing. It's missing?

 

My opinion to the OP is to go with the courier, very cut and dry, send that person a NEUTRAL paid to be there person that none of you know. He/she can explain the sitch and ask for the item. If they don't want to give it back or it's destroyed or gone.. them's the breaks IMO

[2sunny]

I believe you give something (anything) with a clear understanding that it now belongs to the receiver.

 

Whatever he does with it is now his business.

 

It may have been sentimental to you - but not so much that you didn't give it away.

 

Let it go- do not ask for it back. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

[MissBee]

LFH,

 

I think most of us are fairly smart. I'm not a lawyer, but have a working understanding of how laws work. And while Judge Judy is a tv show, she is a real judge and follows real laws and rules but is extra rude for entertainment value.

 

A gift is a gift and once given is not yours and you have no say in what happens to it. Would you not agree that this is how the law works? If we're wrong, can you at least show where you've seen it works differently.

 

You cited an engagement ring as an example but it is not the same thing as normal gifts. An engagement ring can be considered a conditional gift, and it's not always the case either. An engagement ring is contingent upon getting married. Other gifts, unless directly stated or contracted, are not contingent up on anything and are out of your hands once given. Certainly based on what fooled says, there was no condition for this gift, but it was given like other things that are given when all was well with no condition of he could only keep it if he said goodbye or if they stayed together. In retrospect I'm sure she wishes she'd have never given him but she has no legal recourse here. It sucks and I definitely get it...but one is not entitled to waste a court's time because one is upset.

 

You're saying people aren't understanding...but what don't people understand? It seems your understanding is that simply because you are upset with an ex-boyfriend and his wife, you can take them to court and sue them and waste the court's time just for your own vindication...... I'm not dumb personally and know that your take on "the law" in this case if faulty and it doesn't work how you'd like it to and we're not the ones failing to understand here. You more or less admitted that even if you had no case you'd drag it to court to be spiteful...and that is your right to do that if it would make you feel better but it's not us not understanding the law.

 

In fact here is what the law says about gifts:

 

When Is a Gift a Gift?

Courts generally treat the engagement ring as a gift, from the donor (the person who gave the ring) to the donee (the person who received it). To be considered a legal gift, three things must be present: the donor's intent to give the ring as a gift, the donor's delivery of it to the donee, and the donee's acceptance of the item. If the person to whom the ring was as given can show all three elements, a court will consider the ring to be a gift.

 

Conditional Gifts

However, the majority of courts also consider such a gift to be a conditional one. That means that, until some future event occurs, the gift isn't final; if that event does not occur, then the donor has the right to get the gift back. In real life, many parents use this concept by, for example, giving a teenage daughter the keys to the family car, on the condition that she maintain a certain grade point average for a specified period of time. If she doesn't make the grade, the keys must be returned.

Edited January 12, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[herenow]

It's like the children's book "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie".

 

If you give a MM a gift, he is going to take it home

If he takes it home, his wife will see it

If his wife sees it, she may think it's trash and throw it out

If she throws it out, the OW will sue her

 

and so on...

[wisernow]

A lawsuit would be pointless. If I were brought to court for this nonsense, I'd just say I dropped the damn thing and it broke. Or i put it through the dishwasher or washing machine by mistake and it broke. Or I gave it away because it had been sitting under the dresser next to the dustbunnies and I thought it was junk.

 

Or better yet, what item?? I never saw the darn thing. It's missing?

 

My opinion to the OP is to go with the courier, very cut and dry, send that person a NEUTRAL paid to be there person that none of you know. He/she can explain the sitch and ask for the item. If they don't want to give it back or it's destroyed or gone.. them's the breaks IMO

 

I agree Eleanor- this was not a conditional gift like an engagement ring. This was something freely given to another. You lose all rights to said gift and i once it's given becomes the property of the giftee. But really, the OP never brought up anything about suing the exmm, no that came later by another poster, about what SHE would do.

 

OP, I think the best advice you got was having one of your trusted friends (male) approach him and ask for the gift back on your behalf. If that doesn't work, I think you'll probably not get it back, which sucks.

[whichwayisup]

OP, I think the best advice you got was having one of your trusted friends (male) approach him and ask for the gift back on your behalf. If that doesn't work, I think you'll probably not get it back, which sucks.

 

Totally agree. And he knows how sentimental that watch is..He took it knowing this and if he truly had a heart, he'd return it, reguardless of how their A ended.

[anna121]

Word.

 

You say you gave it to him for being supportive when your Dad passed. That action remains true. It's not negated because things didn't work out.

 

You're going to feel what you feel, but maybe if you can look at it another way this won't hurt so much and you can start to move on.

[herenow]

Maybe. Or maybe he makes an example of it to prove himself to his wife (whether she asks or not, even of she doesn't know beforehand).

 

What's the right thing to do? Honestly...for a man reconciling with his wife I think doing what is best for her is the right thing and what's nice to the OW is irrelevant to determining what's right.

 

It would be different if all parties were single during the relationship. The. Is say yeah he's an ass not to give it back but you can't make him. But he had a wife and you knew that. So I'm sorry but while he's married she is all that matters in determining what is right from wrong (amongst legally available options),

 

IMO, the right thing to do is honor the sprit of the gift.

 

I was told as a very young child that a gift was not to be taken back. Maybe the best thing to do is move on and learn to not give things away, if you think you may want it back for any reason, without a clear understanding that you may ask for it back if circumstances change.

[SidLyon]

Where's SidLyon when you need her? LOL

 

The lesson is that when you give something away you give up control of it.

 

Ha ha - well I'm here now. It's still morning here and I got up late, read/posted to some of the other threads (not this one) then went for a leisurely breakfast and just got back.

 

OK; first the legal situation.

 

If a gift is freely given (ie is unfettered with no conditions) then it becomes the possession of the new owner. Conditions could be explicit or implicit but would be hard to "prove" in the absence of written documentation.

 

The reason wedding presents might be returnable in the event the marriage fails, is that there is an understanding (ie a condition) that the presents are for the married parties. So if the marriage fails the condition is not longer satisfied. Similar reasoning applies to engagement rings and why they sometimes ought to be returned.

 

In this instance there's no evidence that there was any sort of condition attached to the giving of the gift.

 

Once the MM has unconditional ownership then he is at liberty to give the item to his BW. This might seem unusual but when a married couple attempts reconciliation this does happen. It happened in my case.

 

The BW can then destroy the item or return it to the OW, which is what I did. To be honest I don't know what I would have done had the items been of sentimental value to her, and I knew this. Until this thread, that possibility had not occurred to me, so be aware that a BW honestly may have no idea about that.

 

Secondly the prospect of taking legal action

 

Certainly the OW could attempt to take legal action to either have the gift returned, or seek compensation if it's been destroyed by the MM/BW. My guess is that such a case would have little prospect of success, but if an OW (such as LFH) wants to try then she can (as she's said).

 

If the item isn't worth too much (ie mainly sentimental value) then action could possible be taken through a lower court. Monetary cost might not be too excessive, and for revenge value/exposure value, might be quite successful as LFH has noted. The OW might need to find a lawyer to take on the case or might be able to do it herself provided she has some legal knowledge or is good at working out and following the legal/court procedures.

 

Moral/Practical Solution

 

I agree that the best thing is to ask for the gift back. I like the idea of sending a brief businesslike letter with a pre-paid and addressed courier envelope. If there is no response then I wouldn't go any further unless you want the hassle of taking legal action for something that probably won't be successful.

 

I'd recommend that the letter go to both MM and BW to make it clear that you are not trying to have continuing secrets with him, but if you don't like the idea of involving his BW then just send it to him.

[herenow]

I agree. I was just commenting on what I think is the *right* thing for the MM to do. I agree that the gift is gone as it was never conditional.

 

I see your point. However, the OP knew that this MM wasn't always one to "do the right thing". It seems to me the item doesn't have as much sentimental value as the fact that he didn't do what she wanted, so now she wants the gift back.

 

I also agree that "the right thing" when reconciling with a BS is absolutely NC with the OW/OM for any reason at all. So giving the gift back would indeed break that trust. Probably not worth it for the MM or the BW.

[herenow]

I love you SidLyon. Haha. Though you didn't address any downside like it being a frivolous action which means costs get awarded against the Ow.

 

About the quoted para- further back in the thread it's clear contact is really what this is about.

 

Or the fact that the plaintiff would have to prove the action was for revenge/vindictive. If the item was tossed, it would most likely be to get rid of it and move on with fixing their marriage. The BW would state that fact, the case would be over and the BW could sue the OW for harassment if she wanted. Many BW's would at least get a RO at that point.

Edited January 12, 2013 by herenow

[SidLyon]

I love you SidLyon. Haha. Though you didn't address any downside like it being a frivolous action which means costs get awarded against the Ow.

 

About the quoted para- further back in the thread it's clear contact is really what this is about.

 

 

Sometimes in the lower courts cost are not awarded (not so sure about the USA). That wouldn't prevent a lower court judge making comments on the credibility and integrity of someone mounting a frivolous action.

[herenow]

Sometimes in the lower courts cost are not awarded (not so sure about the USA). That wouldn't prevent a lower court judge making comments on the credibility and integrity of someone mounting a frivolous action.

 

If the case was made in small claims court, it would be a one day quickie with no lawyers and then it would be over no matter what the judges decision. The BW could counter with her own harassment case and get rewarded for her time and and any costs she may have up to the limit which varies state to state. But, if the OW was suing the BW to drag her through a long court journey, that would not work in small claims. And, in reality it would probably get thrown out of any other court room in the USA fairly quickly.

Edited January 12, 2013 by herenow

[SidLyon]

If the case was made in small claims court, it would be a one day quickie with no lawyers and then it would be over no matter what the judges decision. The BW could counter with her own harassment case and get rewarded for her time and and any costs she may have. But, if the OW was suing the BW to drag her through a long court journey, that would not work in small claims. And, in reality it would probably get thrown out of any other court room in the USA fairly quickly.

 

I'm fairly sure such a case would be thrown out in both the USA and Australia and that if it went no higher than a lower court (here our small claims courts is the magistrates' courts) then there would be a decision and no costs awarded (sounds from what you say that it would be the same in the US).

 

Any further action by the BW (eg harassment) or by the OW (an appeal if allowed) is a different matter. I expect most judges would tire of this quickly.

 

PS The interesting thing would be if there were some "provable" conditions attached to the gift. Eg if the OW said (and could prove) "I give you this gift on the understanding that you will:

 

(a) divorce your wife and marry me, or

(b) continue to have an affair with me, or

(b) communicate any reasons for break-up with me".

 

Because courts have an obligation to uphold lawful marriage any court would need to work out whether this obligation prevailed over the gift conditions, or vice versa.

 

PPS In this particular instance the OW has stated numerous time that the gift was given because of the support the MM gave her and their long friendship, so none of the above would apply to her anyway.