I don't think I'm out of my mind...

[MassiveAtom]

...but I could be wrong.

 

I am a hopeless romantic. I didn't know I was until I started doing "little things" for my wife. When she was pregnant with our first child I would wash and massage her feet - since they would swell up very badly. Then sometimes when she wasn't pregnant, I would light some candles, run her favorite native american chant CD and massage her till she was totally asleep. then I'd cover her with her childhood blanket and hit the couch for the night. Next morning breakfast, pancakes for everybody, teddy bears for my daughter and medallions for her.

 

I gave her this coupon once, not some crappy handwritten thing either, I spent two hours in Photoshop and Illustrator making her "Bliss Certificate" It entitled her to redeem it for whatever form of bliss she wanted. She has always been a HUGE Folk music fan and often expressed interest in learning to play guitar. Last New years day, she found a Fender acoustic all strung up waiting for her in her office chair, with information and everything she needed to get well introduced to playing the beautiful instrument.

 

Then I wrote my daughter a song. on MY guitar. I could go on. But I find it very difficult.

 

See, the way I understand love is that it's a constant communication through action and word that shows the other their significance to you. It shows her you love her. We've been married for 8 years and I keep doing this stuff . I figure it's for one reason or the other.

 

1. I love her more than I can ever hope to understand.

or

2. I'm out of my friggin mind in denial.

 

I include #2 because her actions show me that she doesn't give a SH|t if I'm there or not. No matter what I do, it's as if I don't matter. I'm in the process of completely remodeling the second floor of the house we just bought, she has the girls (2 of 'em) at a friends house. I think this is the time where we should be VERY CAREFUL of each other and the reassurances should flow like rain. But it's only cloudy and dark. She says, " I love you, you're my family, but I'm not madly in love with you." I don't expect "madly," just regular ol' love. SHOWN. She says I need too much, but is it too much to ask that she acknowledge ME and not only what I do? I mean, whatever happened to compliments.?

 

I brought this to her attention, I told her exactly how I felt. I was tactful, I was kind, and not brutally honest. I find honesty is a lot more useful when it's not brutal. Her response was silence. Then the very next day, she called me up in the morning and told me she was going out of state to visit friends. she ended with "we'll be back Sunday night. See you."

 

I thought that after the prior nights discussion, there would at least be mention that she gave it some thought, or that it actually happened, but nothing.

Is that okay?

 

I'm nearly convinced that she does not love me at all. If I use actions as the manifestation of active love (love as a verb) then It's absolute, She doesn't love me.

This has gone on for a long time and I'm approaching the point of giving up. that makes me very sad.

 

There's a lot more to the story, I'll fill in details as the topic develops. Right now I guess my question is. WTF is going on?!?!

 

MA

 

[meanon]

That's a really hard question to answer based on this much information, MA

 

Did you ever feel loved by your wife? Is she coping OK with life at the moment? Apart from the things you are missing (which seem to be direct expressions of love) are you intimate? Do you share your day to day life and thoughts? Do you cuddle?

 

I think these are some of the questionns you may ask yuorself to get a clearer idea of what is going on. Your wife may have fallen out of love with you. She may be finding life hard at the moment, many stop expressing affection to others when this happens. It may be that she is telling you she loves you but expresses it in different ways than you do and she feels you are not listening to her and that she can not live up to your expectations. She may feel smothered. Sometimes less is more - allow her a little space and she may respond more positively.

 

Good luck

[jmargel]

Even in a loving warm relationship some couples need that sort of a 'challenge'. You are always there for her, waiting on foot. She has come accustomed to this behavior and doesn't appreciate it as much as she should. Awhile back my fiancee said something to the affect 'You tell me you love me so much, it loses it's meaning at time'. Which if you think about it, it does. If you say 'I love you' to someone 10 times a day, of course it's not going to feel as special.

 

What you need to do is do a 180. You are too sensitive (i'm the same way) and your wife should be more sensitive. It's not that she doesn't love you, it's just some people are brought up that way. My fiancee is the same way. I write her poems and she smiles, but she doesn't get all romantic and affectionate. It sucks and for the longest time I thought it was me.

 

We went to counseling for a number of things, and I brought this up. Privately the counselor told me to stop all of that. Stop saying I love you, stop hanging on her, stop doing little things for her. I did that, and within' only two days she was coming to me. Talking to her about it she told me I wasn't giving her the chance to come to me. So, then I felt she was pulling away and I came towards her more which then pushed her away.

 

Sounds weird, but it's true. As for her going out of state, where is she going? That's disrespectful for her to say that and just go on her merry way.

 

My suggestion would be to do what I did. It helped things out quite a bit. She's gotten to comfortable with you to the point that she's taken you for granted. Do yourself a favor, while she isn't around this weekend, don't call her. Let her call you. Let her wonder why you aren't treating her like a queen anymore.

[MassiveAtom]

Originally posted by meanon

That's a really hard question to answer based on this much information, MA

 

Did you ever feel loved by your wife?

Yes. Before we were married. I know it's cliche, but lookking at our wedding video, I saw her crass attitude VERY clearly.

Is she coping OK with life at the moment?

Not really. She's stressed with the kids at the moment.

Apart from the things you are missing (which seem to be direct expressions of love) are you intimate?

If you could call it that. The times when sex happens are on HER schedule only what's worse there's not much of what I'd call intimacy.

Do you share your day to day life and thoughts?

I do, She doesn't seems to care.

Do you cuddle?

I wish.

I think these are some of the questionns you may ask yuorself to get a clearer idea of what is going on.

 

Your wife may have fallen out of love with you.

That is like a knife in my heart. She MAY have fallen out of love with me? Then why do I want to hang around her?! What's the point?

 

She may be finding life hard at the moment, many stop expressing affection to others when this happens. It may be that she is telling you she loves you but expresses it in different ways than you do and she feels you are not listening to her and that she can not live up to your expectations. She may feel smothered. Sometimes less is more - allow her a little space and she may respond more positively.

 

Interesting, We've been separated before, for a year, I even had a girlfriend. That was amazing.

But My wife and I reconciled. So here I am.

It's ironic that you mention detaching. I'm about as aloof as I can be to her lately. I spoke with her on the phone today, Well she spoke, I just "uh-huh"ed. Quickly said goodbye and hung up. It's strange though, that felt good. Kinda like saying, "well, idon't really give a sh|t either." And you know, she didn't seem at all bothered.

 

Good luck

>.

[MassiveAtom]

Originally posted by jmargel

Even in a loving warm relationship some couples need that sort of a 'challenge'. You are always there for her, waiting on foot. She has come accustomed to this behavior and doesn't appreciate it as much as she should. Awhile back my fiancee said something to the affect 'You tell me you love me so much, it loses it's meaning at time'. Which if you think about it, it does. If you say 'I love you' to someone 10 times a day, of course it's not going to feel as special.

 

Actually this is all sortof after the fact, We had that long conversation, I told her that I expect nothing from her, and that she should not expect anything from me. that " I can't continue to sacrifice if it becomes injurious to my happiness. so I'm stopping all that." I gave her what she said she wanted, it was ineffectual, so I quit.

 

What you need to do is do a 180. You are too sensitive (i'm the same way) and your wife should be more sensitive. It's not that she doesn't love you, it's just some people are brought up that way. My fiancee is the same way. I write her poems and she smiles, but she doesn't get all romantic and affectionate. It sucks and for the longest time I thought it was me.

 

Yeah I pulled that "yuoey" I may have turned a little hard but I had to detach. BTW that too sensitive thing sounds just like her. I'm not TOO sensitive, I AM sensitive. She signed on to love me in light of my sensitivity.

 

Now please understand, I'm in no way smothering her. All those things I've talked about were done over the course of eight years! Heck right now we don't even live together. I have a full life, and I definately keep busy. But I've always wanted my marriage to be a central construct in my life. But now I can only imagine it as just another part of my life, or sometimes, part of my past.

 

We went to counseling for a number of things, and I brought this up. Privately the counselor told me to stop all of that. Stop saying I love you, stop hanging on her, stop doing little things for her. I did that, and within' only two days she was coming to me. Talking to her about it she told me I wasn't giving her the chance to come to me. So, then I felt she was pulling away and I came towards her more which then pushed her away.

 

Pushing pulling, I view it as a dance, where both partners must be willing to lead and follow at times. The best dances are when each do it instinctively, or innately. I kinda think I'm forcing this. In our therapy sessions, we Agreed to lots of techniques and so groundrules, but those are just being ignored.

 

Sounds weird, but it's true. As for her going out of state, where is she going? That's disrespectful for her to say that and just go on her merry way.

I thought so too. She doesn't seem to understand that.

 

My suggestion would be to do what I did. It helped things out quite a bit. She's gotten to comfortable with you to the point that she's taken you for granted. Do yourself a favor, while she isn't around this weekend, don't call her. Let her call you. Let her wonder why you aren't treating her like a queen anymore.

 

We're on the same page and I appreciate your input. Both of you.

 

I don't like to "play games" with her. I told her exactly what was going on with me. and what the consequences would be. And I am going to stick to it like snot on a cold window.

 

But it hurts.

 

 

mA

[DazednConfused]

Hiya,

 

Just a thought, but you are loving her the way you would like to be loved. The fact is, while these things are important to you, they may not mean a hill of beans to her. After all these years, I am sure you have hit the buttons once in a while that make her really take off (happy), try to recall what those were, and do them more. Chances are, you will get what you are after in reciprocity with entusiasm.

 

One thing that does not come up as often, is that women (Okay, some women) often take a good partner for granted. She has become so used to you showering her with love and attention, she has become desensitized to it. Putting you in the position of having to "top yourself". In your post, you said you were not "brutally honest". Sometimes, brutal honesty is necessary because she is not getting your message my friend.

 

"Sweetheart, it sure would be nice if we could go back to the old days and be affectionate again, I miss that."

 

OR:

 

"You are not providing the affection that I need and have asked for several times. Is there a problem? Or should I be expected to live the rest of my life this way? If so, I better rethink this whole thing."

 

The simple fact is that this is important to you! If it wasn't, you would not be here asking advice. She does not realize just how important, but it is up to you to make her understand, and then follow through.

 

Best wishes!

 

-D

[MassiveAtom]

Originally posted by DazednConfused

Hiya,

 

Just a thought, but you are loving her the way you would like to be loved. The fact is, while these things are important to you, they may not mean a hill of beans to her. After all these years, I am sure you have hit the buttons once in a while that make her really take off (happy), try to recall what those were, and do them more. Chances are, you will get what you are after in reciprocity with entusiasm.

 

One thing that does not come up as often, is that women (Okay, some women) often take a good partner for granted. She has become so used to you showering her with love and attention, she has become desensitized to it. Putting you in the position of having to "top yourself". In your post, you said you were not "brutally honest". Sometimes, brutal honesty is necessary because she is not getting your message my friend.

 

"Sweetheart, it sure would be nice if we could go back to the old days and be affectionate again, I miss that."

 

OR:

 

"You are not providing the affection that I need and have asked for several times. Is there a problem? Or should I be expected to live the rest of my life this way? If so, I better rethink this whole thing."

 

The simple fact is that this is important to you! If it wasn't, you would not be here asking advice. She does not realize just how important, but it is up to you to make her understand, and then follow through.

 

Somewhere there is a nail with a severe headache!!

 

I don't know if I'm "seeking advice" because most of these suggestions and insights, however good and very well thought out, are things that I have done.

 

I think what I'm looking for is some impartial verification that I am NOT completely confused and incapable of deciphering the signals I'm receiving..

 

I guess the way I led off in my original post, I may have fueled the incorrect notion that I am doting. No, in fact I am the opposite in many ways. I am FAR from the clingy guy, certainly not the caterer, She's not treated as a queen, and my relationship is not the only thing in my life.

 

All of the stuff I do, is because I am loving her the way SHE has indicated is the right way for her.. Do you think that if I didn't have to I would work so hard?

 

See, I Asked her what should I do so that she feels appreciated, I asked if she liked this and that, I check in with her, I call her when I'm late. It's what she asked me to do. She wanted me to take a job instead of building the media company I started several years ago. I do what she asks. But Now I'm going to start saying "no."

 

I Don't want a massage, I don't want "time away" I don't need to hang out with my friends for days at a time. She does, and She gets what she says she needs. I just want a compliment every now and again. I want to be appreciated. an "i love you" would help. Or how about understanding that logistically it's very dificult to do certain things for her, given our current situation. And act accordingly?

 

It's starting to seem to me that I DO have it right, My wife doesn't know how to love. Yeah it's definitely her upbringing, Rich, detached, silent.

 

I don't think I should have to deal with this innate rejectionist crap anymore.

 

You'd think that she could learn and do .

 

 

Isn't there a divorce forum on the board?

[Samson]

Isn't there a divorce forum on the board?

 

Welcome to where fantasy, "a dance, where both partners must be willing to lead and follow at times," becomes reality.

 

You've not wasted 8 years. You'll still be a great dad. And you'll be free to find someone who may share your visions.

 

Good Luck.

[MassiveAtom]

Well all, I took a deep breath, stepped back, and left the situation alone. I still hurt a little bit, but things have changed, for the better.

To recap.

 

We bought a house, Gutted the second floor, Wife and kids moved away during construction. During thwe last two months the distance between her and me grew. Now her heart is full of doubt and Sadness and anger. I was puzzled, angry sad and poised to file for divorce pre-emptively. then it hit me.

 

Change my mind.

 

The only way I can explain it is that I realized I was angry, frustrated, and sad about being apart from her. I was acting needy, getting beligerent, cold, and distant. Despite all the nice thing I do, regardless of my positive actions. I was literally pushing her further away. I don't know exactly why..

 

I stopped EVERYTHING. No phone calls, no affection when she showed up on Monday, No idle chatting, no criticisms, nothing. I thought about how I would feel if she were acting the same way. You know what, no matter how many nice things she did for me I'd still doubt my feeling for her. I was such an ass.

 

So I F.U.C.K.ed myself.

F- Forgiveness, I forgave both of use for getting all worked up and misdirecting that negativity.

 

U-understanding. I had to reach deep, but I understood MY role in helping her feel the way she does.

 

C-Compassion, This just comes naturally to me, so I did what I had to do.

 

K-kindness, I Took myself out and treated him to some TLC, a few new items of clothing, and checked out a motorcycle.

 

Then I F.U.C.K.ed my wife.

 

Today was different. When I saw her today, Just the way she looked at me ...

 

She melted my heart again.

 

 

mA

[DazednConfused]

It is truly rare and shocking to see a happy ending on this board due to self examination. Kudos, props, and hearty Grats to you!

 

-D

[MassiveAtom]

THIS IS SO DAMN HARD!!!!!!!!!!

 

Why is it that I have to "suck it up!?"

 

I love this woman more than I can understand. I hurts my friggin brain to think about why and where it comes from. Why the hell do I swoon?

 

She's still ambivalent, she doesn't know how she feels about me, She says she's scared of how we'll be together. huh? And now thinks she wants me to go out and have a fling! WHAT IS THAT ABOUT!? I don't want to have a fling. I want us, and our life together.

 

Trying to work it out in the ol' greyblob... Does this sound reasonable? She wants me to have a fling so she can be free of guilt since she has decided that she doesn't love me and wants to be with someone else? OR, She thinks >I< will change my mind about her after getting some new 'tang? She and I both know that I came back to her AFTER having AWESOME sex for 6 months 3-5 times a week!

 

(I think I AM a bit nuts after all! )

 

Yes, I considered that she might be having an affair. But I KNOW that she doesn't have the time nor the loot, nor the inclination to do so.

 

It's like her compass is broken. and she's stuck in a fog of ambiguity. I wish I could help her back. ::Patience, I say to myself:::

 

But check this out. Everytime I see her, I so want to wrap my arms around her and kiss her face, sorta roll around in her presence, you know? But today, I got this deep pang of resentment that I couldn't shake. I swear for a while there, I hated her.

I'm having trouble retaining control of my emotions now, It's only two days before we're back together, I love her so much I don't want to risk her turning away because she can't stand my behavior, but I think I have a right to express the pain she's causing me. She driving me crazy!

 

I just don't get any of this :

 

HELP I need to cope !

mA

[DazednConfused]

Okay, I spoke too soon.

 

It is very interesting that she has suggested you go out and have a fling. What a ridiculous notion. Unless it will either alleviate her own guilt, or she does not think she can ever give you what you need.

 

Doesn't have the loot, time or inclination?? Ah, my deluded friend, I would have said the same of my wife. She's a chick, if some guy is chasin her tail, he will find the bucks and she will find the time if she is interested.

 

Is she showing any other signs of having pulled away from the relationship w. you? Is she happy to be around you? Or is there contempt for you in her actions?

 

One thing I have learned in the research I have done following my wife's affair is that women tend to slowly "peel" themselves away from an unsatisfactory relationship. They stop trying to talk to us, stop trying to relate to us, stop tryiung to show us what they want. Us males being the incredibly dense creatures that we are, see this as getting comfortable. We blissfully kick up our feet and think "Now she gets it, we don't need to talk about curtains, parenting, blah,blah, blah. All is good!" By the time we realize there is a problem, the woman is already emotionally gone. At that point it is damn hard to get her back.

 

To cope, I don't really have the answer you seek. For me it is rage, and tweny minutes with a hand axe and a railroad tie suffice.

 

In your shoes, i would try to understand, and continue to try to discover what it is she really wants. Once you have that, you have a goal and a finish line.

 

Whatever the outcome, please let us know how it's goin.

 

-D

[VivianLee]

Suggesting a you have a fling could be...

 

...a test

 

...a guilt reliever (for lack of love or an affair she's involved in)

 

...she may be "feeling" she's lost her love for you

 

It makes no sense whatsoever if she is trying to help mend the marriage...

 

Apathy is a bad as an affair or hate.....she has to be hot or cold about your marriage, not lukewarm

 

 

But check this out. Everytime I see her, I so want to wrap my arms around her and kiss her face, sorta roll around in her presence, you know? But today, I got this deep pang of resentment that I couldn't shake. I swear for a while there, I hated her.

 

That has to be such a range of emotions! You have to be mentally exhausted! I'm afraid there is only so much rejection and confusing that you are going to be alble to stand....the resentment could and may likely drive a wedge where you do start to hate......

 

I was really cheering you on and soo dang excited about your possible "happy ending" post....if I feel let down, I know you are feeling it a million times over!!

 

I can understand your begrudging her after having such incredible sex and now you are dealing with "ho hum"....that's just the human side of you!

 

Good Luck!! Hang in there!!

 

By the way, as a few others on here, you have an awesome way with words, if you aren't a writer, you need to consider it!

[MassiveAtom]

Originally posted by DazednConfused

Okay, I spoke too soon.

 

It is very interesting that she has suggested you go out and have a fling. What a ridiculous notion. Unless it will either alleviate her own guilt, or she does not think she can ever give you what you need.

 

Doesn't have the loot, time or inclination?? Ah, my deluded friend, I would have said the same of my wife. She's a chick, if some guy is chasin her tail, he will find the bucks and she will find the time if she is interested.

 

Is she showing any other signs of having pulled away from the relationship w. you? Is she happy to be around you? Or is there contempt for you in her actions?

 

I don't think you spoke too soon, DC. Maybe it's my incurable optimism, but this ain't over yet! I asked her about the fling comment. She not having an affair, she mentioned her curiosity and so forth, but I can understand that. If I encounter an attractive woman, I'm curious. Doesn't mean I'm going any further.

 

She is investing now, it's like my heart has gain a level of immportance . I feel "considered" right now. we had a little conversation last night, which, as is her usual way, was abruptly ended so she could read her book. I let it go without mention.

Zoom! my mind went flying, I thought I heard the doorbell through the phone when she said she had to go. "She's probably with the guy right now!" I thought, "But I don't want to be the person who stands in the way of her happiness, I don't want to chain her in. I f that makes her happy... " I was really losing it. Then my phone rings.

 

"I'm sorry about the way I ended that" she cooed " I wish I wasn't so harsh with you. but I just don't know what's going on."

Do I yell and scream? or do I F.U.C.K. her.

 

Here's what I said:

 

"You know, honey, I know how you feel." I said. " I'm scared too. But it's okay, we're more alike than either of us realize. Enjoy your book. Get some rest. I'll see you soon. "

 

Can you guess what she said?

 

She said, "I love you. thanks."

 

And that was it. I slept very well last night

 

DC, Women are not all the same, there ARE differences in behavior between each of them, I feel your pain with the affair and all. I've lived through that nightmare, and point to it for my current bout with anxiety. You are such a well spoken and smart guy, so dang self aware, that It surprises me that you'd paint all women with the same brush. I do understand how that thought process can take hold. It's hard my friend, I know. I think whats going on here, looking at myself as a guage, is my wife is dealing with the same confusion as I am. We're both playing into it. It's wierd . like we're joined and the brainstem.

 

I think this will have an ending, It'll be happy, sad, angry, regretful, bittersweet, melancholy, resolved, reconciled, content elated and final.

 

I wasn't expecting to say that. Kinda sounds like dying, no?

 

mA

[MassiveAtom]

This post is the kind of compassionate understanding that must be replicated across the human race. Such warmth caring. Yes Vivian you brought me to tears. Thank you. I needed that. OnWARD!

 

Originally posted by VivianLee

Suggesting a you have a fling could be...

 

...a test

 

...a guilt reliever (for lack of love or an affair she's involved in)

 

...she may be "feeling" she's lost her love for you

 

It makes no sense whatsoever if she is trying to help mend the marriage...

 

Agreed . all those possibilties are reasonable, and each one makes me want to hurl!

But giving the stallion a large meadow to run in means he's less likely to want to run away. 'Course, I'm no stallion, and when I run I always come back to where I started. I think her intentions were good. She wanted to try to provide comfort where she indeed DOES feel she cannot provide what I need. Disparate sex drives, you know. She probably DID want to test me. S'okay, I understand that. She HAS told me that her feelings for me have lessened. It sucks, but I've been there before too.

 

Apathy is a bad as an affair or hate.....she has to be hot or cold about your marriage, not lukewarm

 

That has to be such a range of emotions! You have to be mentally exhausted! I'm afraid there is only so much rejection and confusing that you are going to be alble to stand....the resentment could and may likely drive a wedge where you do start to hate......

 

I was really cheering you on and soo dang excited about your possible "happy ending" post....if I feel let down, I know you are feeling it a million times over!!

 

I can understand your begrudging her after having such incredible sex and now you are dealing with "ho hum"....that's just the human side of you!

 

Good Luck!! Hang in there!!

 

By the way, as a few others on here, you have an awesome way with words, if you aren't a writer, you need to consider it!

 

Thanks for the compliment, , SO needed right now.

 

And I'll say it again. This post, which I've printed out and now carry with me, is so truly compassionate and understanding, I can't thank you enough for being on the planet. [[[VivianLee]]]

[MassiveAtom]

And all is right and good.

 

It looks like the trouble is FINALLY OVER!!

 

After this weekend, I am again happily married. No, I'm not blissfully parrtnered in a continuously harmonious relationship, but what has reignited is the stuff that marriages are made of. At least for my partner and I.

 

Most of it has been worked out beautifully, there are a couple of sticking points but hey, that's the territory. Divorce is the last thing on my mind. All I can see now is a stable future with my dear wife.

 

I knew that if I held on and looked inward for the answers I could make it through. It was tough going there for a while, Luckily, I found loveshack.org, Thanks everybody. You guys helped save my marriage.

 

With sincerest regards,

 

massiveAtom