Well that was interesting

[nofool4u]

Yeah I totally consider it cheating he H probably would too, although it would be a forgivable cheat. Once.

 

To you it might be, to your H maybe not. It probably would be, but just don't count on it.

 

 

Yesterday I had a long talk with my best friend and she said that since we didnt have intercourse, get emotionally attached, or carry this out a long time it wasn't really a big deal.

 

Yes, of course she is going to say that. And if you didn't get emotionally attached, then why are you stressing about "ending it" with the MOM? If you aren't emotionally attached, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

Plus you guys said to spare him the gory details.

 

You can spare him details. We didn't tell you to lie to him.

 

Basically what you said in your letter is this(condensed version)

 

"The problem is all you and if I do cheat, which I didn't, then its your fault."

 

On a side note I made a declaration to not post here any longer in the OM/OW forum. Which I won't, but I will see this thread to the end since I'm already involved and looks like I was right from the start.

[CountrySlicker]

We had a great talk. I can't say it's "all better" but it's at least on the table. I answered his questions, and he knows now exactly what happened physically. He has agreed to IC and if he follows through I will whole heartedly go to MC.

 

To be clear, that wasn't a letter. that was my notes I had prepared for a face to face talk with him. He demanded I send it, so I did. We discussed that and I understand that he would have obsessed and made this an even bigger deal if he had not known what was going on in my heart and head.

 

My "stressing" over MOM and ending it has nothing to do with an emotional connection to him personally, but rather the loss of my drug of choice--someone to prop me up and tell me how wonderful and sexy I am. He's womanizer, he's not going to miss me.

 

Judge me all you want, but saving the physical details until we were face to face was the right choice for us.

 

I appreciate all the input I have had from each of you. Some more than others I think we're going to be ok. I wish that for each of you as well.

[woinlove]

I think this kind of miscommunication does more harm than good in an M. It really messes with having a working M to send what appears like a plea for a better marriage but which is dishonest. It would have been better to do nothing and first get your head together to decide whether you want to save your M or not. This is just messing around with your husband in a rather cruel way. In the longer term, nothing good is likely to come from that, even though in the short term, you may get him to jump through some hoops while not knowing what is really going on.

 

It will now be more difficult to undo your lies, but if it is done quickly, it won't be as bad as letting the dishonesty go on longer.

 

Messing around with MOM, messing around with your H. You need to get to a better place within yourself if you want to sustain a healthy relationship. Are you in IC?

 

ETA. I see you say you now told him about going beyond kissing and only not having full intercourse because you were in the car. Your letter was not a matter of sparing details, it was lying. If your H accepts these types of lies as no big deal, I wonder what type of M you actually have. Also don't be surprised if your H reacts to going beyond kissing later. Unless he never expects you to be faithful, these things often come as a shock. And if he doesn't expect you to be faithful, why is that?

Edited January 18, 2013 by woinlove

[Decorative]

Many points in your letter were quite valid. I include his lack of hygiene (a turn off for many), his lack of domestic support, and taking you for granted.

 

The things I did not like about the letter were the usual relentless voracious need for validation. And you keep doing it (see above in bold). I believe it is rather pathologic to be so addictive to validation that any loser womanizer MOM will do.

 

I am enthralled by the muted response by your H. Doe he know you gave MOM a blow job?

 

In any event you made many awesome points in your letter minus the usual addiction for external attention.

 

I wish you could find a way to be intrinsically happy. It must difficult passing through life constantly searching for others to prop you op and to give you happiness. IMHO, this is your no. issue and you need IC.

 

Your H needs to take a shower once a day. My wife would kill me if I go to bed without taking a shower.

 

In summary you have many emotional needs in order of greater importance:

 

1. Admiration, adoration, attention, worshiping of you.

2. Domestic support

3. Hygiene

4. Conversation.

5. Cuddling, holding hands.

6. Feeling important.

 

7. Sex, not so sure. I don't think you enjoy that.

 

There is a book about emotional needs in Amazon.com. Look for it. I think it is called "Her Needs, His Needs".

 

Respectfully, Harley's books tend to justify bad behavior and place blame on the spouse who was betrayed- the language is careful, but that's the bottom line, no matter what the apologists for him might spin. It follows a premise that you can keep your mate from cheating, affair proof a marriage , so to speak.

 

The same concept of emotional needs without the blame can be found in The Five Love Languages. It might be a better choice for a partner who has already struggled with some boundaries.

[Decorative]

I never read his books and I actually agree with you. Harley advices things that I do not agree with. However, for some persons the ENs are huge and when they meet a person that fulfill the need the fall madly in love with whomever is meeting the need. The book lists the most common ENs.

 

The most common EN of women and men that cheat is the need to be desired, worshipped, adored, etc.

 

True.

 

Maybe we should just find a list for her and skip that book? She will get a good list of needs from the book, for sure. And a lot of other not so fabulous validation and blaming justification. LOL

 

When my spouse's affair first happened- I lived and died by Harley's books. His Plan B, which is similar to the 180 some other books advise, was extremely helpful to me as a woman with a spouse in an active affair.

 

But in rebuilding? No. No. No. It probably set us back and stalled us out. I wasted time arguing with my spouse and trying to take responsibility for his emotional temperature. useless.

 

My spouse actually threw out His Needs, Her Needs after reading it. He said there was no way he was going to accept a book that said he cheated because I wasn't doing enough, and justified it. He never accepted that as a reason.

[SoleMate]

do men kiss, touch, and orgasm for women they aren't attracted to?

Yes they do.

 

But I guess it depends on what you mean by "attracted". At your age, which is not so different from my age, you know that almost any man can be attracted to almost any woman at the low level necessary for quickie/meaningless makeout NSA.

 

I think it's a lot more significant that you found a man attracted enough to want to pledge himself to you in marriage and would urge you to reflect on the meaning and worth of that.

[BrokenPrincess]

I feel uncomfortable with our family’s personal cleanliness.

Normal, healthy people bathe at LEAST once a week. You only bathe to masturbate. You allow trash and recycling and litter boxes to go unchanged for days at a time. This has been getting worse

 

Whoa. Has your H suffered from depression or other mental diseases?

 

I've never heard if trying to push an adult into a once a WEEK bathing habit. I mean 2 days tops, but for a men w/o even hair to blow dry, WHY doesn't he take showers?

 

I think you should take Pierre's recap list of your feedback to H & move hygiene to #1. If he's clean (and your house isn't so dirty), he might feel better about himself too, making it easier to focus on the rest.

[ThatJustHappened]

to better understand the issues about household tasks, you need to know that I was in a bad car wreck in 2007 and am not very mobile. I have constant neck pain and cannot stand for long periods of time or walk very far. I can't pick up anything off the floor, but I can still do dishes, laundry, mopping, etc.

 

Here is what I sent:

 

I feel our marriage is not important to you.

--For a long time I have been expressing how unhappy and unfulfilled I feel. It seems that as long as I am not actively nagging or complaining you think everything is ok.

 

I feel my happiness is not important to you.

--It takes a lot for me to tell you what I need. When I do, and you don’t make any effort or stop making an effort, I feel unimportant.

 

I feel unappreciated.

--Both you and (our son) don’t make any effort to maintain order and cleanliness either in our shared spaces or in our private spaces. I never get caught up with cleaning unless you two are gone for several days. Then when you return, it takes only hours to destroy the effort I have made. When I try to find ways to improve our home you roll your eyes or find some fault with it. I frequently have to defend my choices and opinions. I feel unimportant when you put off buying birthday and Christmas gifts until the last minute and when you ask me to be specific about what I want. Sometimes when I am specific about what I want, you don’t make it a priority. When you have to get up early or take a call in the night you are thoughtless about how things may disturb me—for instance, you toss things onto the bed as you are getting ready to go instead of leaving the room and organizing somewhere that won’t disturb my sleep.

 

I feel trapped.

I have no source of income and no place to go if things don’t work out. On Sundays, I have to stay in the office because football is on in the living room and kid shows are on in my bedroom. When I am having physical difficulties you ignore them or act like helping me is a chore.

 

I feel emotionally distant.

We don’t spend time together. You don’t ask what interests me or what I do with my day. When I suggest trying something new, you resist. I am reluctant to talk to you about my feelings. I feel like if I do express my discomfort, anger, frustration, or any negative feeling, I am harming you in some way. We have nothing in common. I have tried to get involved with things like the church and the people you work with so that we at least have something….but you don’t seem to be interested in finding things that we could do together.

 

I feel uncomfortable with our family’s personal cleanliness.

Normal, healthy people bathe at LEAST once a week. You only bathe to masturbate. You allow trash and recycling and litter boxes to go unchanged for days at a time. This has been getting worse—you used to take the recycling out twice a week and at least scoop the boxes once a week. You step over things on the floor, and inform me of spills or cat messes as if you think it is my job alone to deal with those things. When I ask you to do a household chore, which realistically is very seldom, you put it off until I either do it myself or cause enough drama that you do it to settle me down. I constantly worry about getting evicted because of the state of our home. You make no effort to clean or maintain our car. You allow (our son)to make no effort in these areas as well.

 

I feel hopeless.

After so many years and so much communication and effort, nothing changes.

 

I feel unmotivated to keep trying.

I haven’t discussed any of this with you in a long time because I feel it does no good. I am only discussing it with you now because I’m showing signs of making bad choices.

 

I feel neglected.

You commit to work, the church, the boy, and your computer games, but not to making things better between us. Our sex life has gotten boring and predictable. It’s become easier to just tell you to take care of yourself or to force myself to participate than to try to spice things up. You never compliment me or touch me unless you want something, specifically sexual gratification. I’ve stopped caring whether I get pleased or not. We don’t even watch tv anymore. We choose movies I pretend to like because I know you won’t agree to seeing something I want to see. We eat at the same places even though you know I love trying new things. What you see as a comfort zone I experience as stagnant routine.

 

I feel tempted to satisfy my needs outside our marriage.

Not via intercourse, although I suspect that anyone I get involved with will expect some sort of physical contact as sort of “payment” for any relationship. I have regular opportunities to spend time with other men. So far, I have not cheated. You need to know, before things get bad, that there is someone I talk to regularly who is interested in a more intimate relationship. Communicating with him makes me feel interesting and pretty and desirable again. I’m trying very hard to resist going further. Because I feel our relationship and my personal esteem is at risk, I’d like to at least try to find an acceptable solution. I have started individual counseling, and I am now laying it all out for you. I do this because I love you, and I’m trying to respect you.

 

As I see it we have three options.

1. We can end the marriage.

2. We can explore “open marriage” where we set rules but allow outside people into our lives.

3. We can work hard and try to get through this as a couple.

 

Personally, I would prefer number 3, but I’m not convinced we would be very successful. I don’t think number 2 is really a viable option—I don’t think either of us is willing to share our mate. Number 1 would not only be emotionally devastating, but also financially and with great damage to (our son)

 

 

And here is what he replied:

 

While I do not see things the same way I do see how and why you perceive things the way you do. And some of the things are true. I have gotten complacent. I do not want option 1 or 2. I will setup a counseling session for myself to work on stuff I know I can fix. I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. I know we view stuff differently -- me likening familiar you liking new. But there is no reason we can't mix it up. I guess I have been a bit selfish and I apologize for that. Lets talk more tonight. Before the UNO tournament

 

Your husband sounds severely depressed...has he considered doing individual counseling along with marriage counseling?

[CountrySlicker]

I have asked my husband to be assessed for depression. He says he is not depressed. Having depression myself, I certainly see the signs there. For years I've tried to get him to explore that possibility. I have even talked to his doctor about it. She seems to think he's just lazy, as there is absolutely no element of sadness.

 

And no, I did NOT give this guy a blow job. I don't know where you even got that. We kissed. We touched above the waist. He came in his pants.

 

I emailed MOM last night and told him I had to cease all contact and why, and I encouraged him to talk to his W as well.

 

I'm watching for positive steps toward follow through with some changes in H.

 

Personally, I think I've "owned" my part in this right from the beginning. The minute I felt I couldnt make good choices any more I sought help from you guys and my best friend. Then I restarted IC. Then I disclosed heavy petting to my H and my vulnerabilities. Then I ended things with MOM. All of this in less than 72 hours. If you are finding fault with that you are either a BS or still in your affair. The negative statements and judgement have been ridiculous. Fortunately, there have been a few who have said really helpful things. And I don't necessarily mean in support.

 

One piece of advice from me--take a good look at your own agenda before you spew judgement on someone like me.

[Decorative]

 

 

 

Personally, I think I've "owned" my part in this right from the beginning. The minute I felt I couldnt make good choices any more I sought help from you guys and my best friend. Then I restarted IC. Then I disclosed heavy petting to my H and my vulnerabilities. Then I ended things with MOM. All of this in less than 72 hours. If you are finding fault with that you are either a BS or still in your affair. The negative statements and judgement have been ridiculous. Fortunately, there have been a few who have said really helpful things. And I don't necessarily mean in support.

 

One piece of advice from me--take a good look at your own agenda before you spew judgement on someone like me.

 

Good luck to you.

 

I'm out.

[ThatJustHappened]

I have asked my husband to be assessed for depression. He says he is not depressed. Having depression myself, I certainly see the signs there. For years I've tried to get him to explore that possibility. I have even talked to his doctor about it. She seems to think he's just lazy, as there is absolutely no element of sadness.

 

And no, I did NOT give this guy a blow job. I don't know where you even got that. We kissed. We touched above the waist. He came in his pants.

 

I emailed MOM last night and told him I had to cease all contact and why, and I encouraged him to talk to his W as well.

 

I'm watching for positive steps toward follow through with some changes in H.

 

Personally, I think I've "owned" my part in this right from the beginning. The minute I felt I couldnt make good choices any more I sought help from you guys and my best friend. Then I restarted IC. Then I disclosed heavy petting to my H and my vulnerabilities. Then I ended things with MOM. All of this in less than 72 hours. If you are finding fault with that you are either a BS or still in your affair. The negative statements and judgement have been ridiculous. Fortunately, there have been a few who have said really helpful things. And I don't necessarily mean in support.

 

One piece of advice from me--take a good look at your own agenda before you spew judgement on someone like me.

 

Maybe depression is something to discuss in marriage counseling. I think his doctor is wrong and it sounds like you think so too. Depression isn't just about feeling sad..it is a chemical imbalance. Laziness is a symptom of depression.

[nofool4u]

We had a great talk. I can't say it's "all better" but it's at least on the table.

 

I answered his questions, and he knows now exactly what happened physically.

 

Sorry, I don't believe you. Because if you told him, trust me, you'd DEFINITELY have more to say, because unless he is a complete pushover, you would have at least had a comment on how he got angry.

 

But you said you told him and the next sentence was this:

 

He has agreed to IC and if he follows through I will whole heartedly go to MC.

 

So again. Basically you will only go to marriage counseling if HE is the one that goes to IC. Just like with your letter. You blamed him for EVERYTHING.

 

 

To be clear, that wasn't a letter. that was my notes I had prepared for a face to face talk with him. He demanded I send it, so I did.

 

What difference does that make? You still lied in those notes, that you DID send him.

 

So after telling him that you didn't cheat, then you supposedly did, that he had nothing to say about the cheating, or even the fact you lied about it the first time so as to make it look like it was all his fault?

 

 

Judge me all you want, but saving the physical details until we were face to face was the right choice for us.

 

That wasn't your intention. Otherwise you wouldn't have lied to him in the note and told him you haven't cheated, when you did. If it was your intention to wait on telling him the truth about you cheating on him, you wouldn't have told him you didn't.

 

So again, I'm not buying it that you told him the truth. You are gaslighting him into thinking he is the one that needs fixing.

[nofool4u]

I have asked my husband to be assessed for depression. He says he is not depressed. Having depression myself, I certainly see the signs there. For years I've tried to get him to explore that possibility. I have even talked to his doctor about it. She seems to think he's just lazy, as there is absolutely no element of sadness.

 

And no, I did NOT give this guy a blow job. I don't know where you even got that.

 

It was from your own description of "pleasuring him". A kiss is not pleasuring someone. You said the only reason you didn't have intercourse was because of the size of your car.

 

One piece of advice from me--take a good look at your own agenda before you spew judgement on someone like me.

 

Judgement on someone like you? You have proven yourself to be a liar. Thats not judgement, thats fact. Its clear to anyone that you change up your story so you can claim something other than what happened, you lied to your husband about not cheating, all the while bashing him as the problem, and even told him, even though you did cheat, that you probably would unless HE gets his act together.

 

Again, you blame him for everything, and in the process, still lie to him so that you can be seen as the person that did nothing wrong.

 

If you want to call the facts, and your own words as "judgement", then so be it.

 

Take a good look at your first post and tell us what you think anyone should have said to you when you didn't express one bit of remorse in it about what you are doing to your husband.

 

Examine your own agenda here and all the posts that led up to now, because your story changes, doesn't add up, and is coming from the standpoint of someone who wants to blame her spouse for what she is doing.

[CountrySlicker]

It was from your own description of "pleasuring him". A kiss is not pleasuring someone. You said the only reason you didn't have intercourse was because of the size of your car.

Reread. I said I enjoyed PLEASING him.

 

 

Judgement on someone like you? You have proven yourself to be a liar. Thats not judgement, thats fact. Its clear to anyone that you change up your story so you can claim something other than what happened, you lied to your husband about not cheating, all the while bashing him as the problem, and even told him, even though you did cheat, that you probably would unless HE gets his act together.

He needed bashed. I have spent 12 years trying to turn things around. All that time I have been the PERFECT wife. I made his lunches, I supported his work, I volunteered for his church (I'm not even Christian) and I raised his son. There are people in this world--hell in this FORUM--who would not consider what I did cheating. And I never said I did nothing wrong. Ever.

 

 

Take a good look at your first post and tell us what you think anyone should have said to you when you didn't express one bit of remorse in it about what you are doing to your husband.

And I still have no remorse. I have years of hurt and anger bottled up inside me, and am able to see that having an affair was a symptom of that. Lord knows what I would have done if I hadn't recognized that. I ended things with MOM because it would hurt my husband and he doesn't deserve hurting, no matter what he has (not) done. Im not proud of what I did, but Im not kicking myself in the head over it either. I got great satisfaction and pleasure. Then I realized it was at the expense of someone I cared about. So I stopped.

Examine your own agenda here and all the posts that led up to now, because your story changes, doesn't add up, and is coming from the standpoint of someone who wants to blame her spouse for what she is doing.

My agenda in coming here was to try to figure out what the heck I was doing and what I wanted to do about it. I honestly thought there would be rules about bitter BS in this particular forum. Do I feel bad for his wife? Sure, but not for anything *I* did. They have problems with or without me. Do I feel bad for my husband? Some. But I'm not holding my breath that anything will really change.

 

Yes, I've been "all over the place" with my posts. I've been all over the place with my feelings too. My behavior surprised me. I was trying to figure out myself, and the MOM, and my H, and understand what was happening. If this isnt the forum in which to do that, mea culpa. It looked like it when I clicked on it the first time.

 

I will give you the timing issue. That was messed up. I was frustrated when he wouldn't make time to talk to me. He pushed for me to send the list, so I did. And in the list I gave my feelings and the reasons why I felt that way. I never said "you make me feel" anything. I said I feel x because of y. If y happens to be something he is doing, then it needs to be discusses whether that will change or not. BLAME him? Hardly. I blame myself consistently for what *I* did. But I did what I did as a reaction to my circumstances. And he needs to own up to his part in creating those circumstances and to tell me if he will be changing or not so I can decide to stay in the M or not.

 

Yes, for the past week I have been an attention whore. For the 12 years prior to that I sat quietly by and took care of things without screaming and crying. That did no good and led me to make bad choices. So forgive me if I scream and cry--here where I thought it would be safe to scream and cry and get some real advice.

 

There are some folks here who have very good intentions. I heard hurtful things that I did not take as an assault on who I am, and I learned. I heard supportive things that helped me calm down. But I also heard a lot of people reading stuff into what I said and calling me names and not listening. Im done putting up with that. Go whine about your WS to someone who gives a crap because this is MY thread and MY agenda and MY struggle and when it comes to some of you I can see why your spouse would stray.

 

I have been all day trying to maintain NC amid a flood of emails from MOM. I am hurting because I have lost something pleasing. I have the right to mourn that loss for a little bit. You people might consider a topic or forum that deals with loss as it affects the OW/OM. We beat ourselves up for the choices we make on top of losing something that felt good. That hurts. And if hurting and confusion and frustration and intolerance of BS BS makes me a bad person, so be it.

 

To the people like Pierre and LFH and others who honestly tried to help, thank you. You did help.

 

The rest of you...not so much.

 

I'm done. I won't bother you again.

[nofool4u]

Reread. I said I enjoyed PLEASING him.

 

Same difference.

 

 

He needed bashed.

 

And there you have it folks.

 

 

I have spent 12 years trying to turn things around. All that time I have been the PERFECT wife.

 

Uh huh.

 

 

I made his lunches, I supported his work, I volunteered for his church (I'm not even Christian) and I raised his son. There are people in this world--hell in this FORUM--who would not consider what I did cheating.

 

Sure, there will be some who would be cut from the same mold that wouldn't consider it cheating.

 

 

And I never said I did nothing wrong. Ever.

 

 

Uh, nowhere in that letter to your husband did you say you were wrong or address your own character or choices. On top of that, you lied.

 

 

And I still have no remorse.

 

Then just divorce your husband then. Set him free

 

 

My agenda in coming here was to try to figure out what the heck I was doing and what I wanted to do about it. I honestly thought there would be rules about bitter BS in this particular forum.

 

Oh no, not the old "bitter" lame.

 

And sorry, I haven't been a BS in 6 years.

 

 

Do I feel bad for my husband? Some. But I'm not holding my breath that anything will really change.

 

And it won't. Wanna know why? Because you put this ALL on him. As long as you are wanting him to change, but nothing within yourself, its pointless to reconcile. Again, might as well get a divorce. Especially if this is all his fault and he is that bad.

 

 

BLAME him? Hardly.

 

Hardly? Try completely. Your letter to him said it all.

 

 

I blame myself consistently for what *I* did.

 

Nowhere in this thread have you done that.

 

But I did what I did as a reaction to my circumstances. And he needs to own up to his part in creating those circumstances and to tell me if he will be changing or not so I can decide to stay in the M or not.

 

His part in creating the circumstances? Ok, fair enough. What about your part? Oh, thats right, you were the PERFECT wife. I remember you said that.

 

Yes, for the past week I have been an attention whore. For the 12 years prior to that I sat quietly by and took care of things without screaming and crying. That did no good and led me to make bad choices. So forgive me if I scream and cry--here where I thought it would be safe to scream and cry and get some real advice.

 

There are some folks here who have very good intentions. I heard hurtful things that I did not take as an assault on who I am, and I learned. I heard supportive things that helped me calm down. But I also heard a lot of people reading stuff into what I said and calling me names and not listening. Im done putting up with that. Go whine about your WS to someone who gives a crap because this is MY thread and MY agenda and MY struggle and when it comes to some of you I can see why your spouse would stray.

 

I have been all day trying to maintain NC amid a flood of emails from MOM. I am hurting because I have lost something pleasing. I have the right to mourn that loss for a little bit. You people might consider a topic or forum that deals with loss as it affects the OW/OM. We beat ourselves up for the choices we make on top of losing something that felt good. That hurts. And if hurting and confusion and frustration and intolerance of BS BS makes me a bad person, so be it.

 

To the people like Pierre and LFH and others who honestly tried to help, thank you. You did help.

 

The rest of you...not so much.

 

I'm done. I won't bother you again.