Using your sexuality for personal gain.

[DerangedAngel]

Originally posted by Moose

I am saying that if a woman is dressed in something sexy, is flaunting her body around, and is rubbing her crotch on men, acting un lady like, then they should expect it! If it doesn't happen, she's lucky, she got away with something.

 

F*ck, no. She did not get away with something.

 

In your opinion (unless you want to say you misspoke), a woman should be punished by rape for doing any/all of the above. And if she isn't, well, she just got away with it? Because she did something wrong?

 

What the f*ck? Do you not see how messed up that sounds?

 

-Deranged

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by Fayebelle

YES YOU DO

 

No, you actually don't. You should rent "threads"

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by InmannRoshi

I'm not saying the behour was right or wrong. People are free to use whatever they have at their disposal. I'm just saying you can't have it both ways. Once again, you can't use your sexuality to your benefit when it suits you, and then complain when others view you as a sexual object. Just like one shouldn't complain that they aren't taken seriously when they talk like a Valley Girl. No, saying the word "like" every other word and popping your bubblegum doesn't necessarily mean you're intellectually dim, but if that's how you chose to present yourself that's how others will perceive you.

 

perceive me however you like but keep your hands to yourself and control your own behavior. and, no, i'm not talking about you perse but i'm talking about any man that thinks it's okay to brutalize a woman because of how she dresses. we can't blame our bad behavior on anything but ourselves so if a guy rapes a woman because she dressed sexy than it's his horrible deed and it wasn't the fault of his victim.

 

also, if a guy wouldn't take me seriously because i dressed sexy in a bar while out having fun with my friends, chances are HUGE that he isn't the kinda guy i care about impressing.

 

and don't forget, we're talking about looking sexy when you're out having a good time. we aren't in the board room holding a business meeting.

[Fayebelle]

Can I rent to own?

 

I stand by the thought that no sane person would rape a person.

[Girlie]

"""I stand by the thought that no sane person would rape a person."""

 

I agree. I don't think they have to be completely off the deep end serial rapist types, but I can't fathom there not being something missing from someone who would pull that. The guy who did it to me seemed normal enough....but do I think he is NOW? Hell no.

[CurlyIam]

Hi, Moose

 

Please forgive me, I unwillingly seem to have opened Padora's box here.

 

The only point to my last post was this: "Women who dress sexy don't necessarily do it for men, but for themselves". Yes, it is a difference between "sexy'', ''obvious'' and we also have "obscene."

 

And again, you speak from what it is out there- there are a lot of sickos who will rape, and kill given the chance.

And yes, protecting yourself from this type of situation is the wise thing to do. But protect yourself till when? Choosing the club better? The area? The clothes? not getting out unless accompanied? Not getting out at all?

 

You are talking about real life. I speak about how things should be. I admit I do not have the courage to put on a red dress and go to Harlem in order to make use of the liberty of expressing myself. I am saying that in some situation, a woman may be forced to be alone in the streets one night, without being dressed in a provocative way and still fear greatly for her life.

 

 

 

My point is: I confess I do despize women who do use their sexuality for personal financial ends. But since they do not interfere with me, I have no problem with them. Somehow I'm glad that this type of women do exist. Just like I'm glad that easy women exist. It gives men a really good term of comparison ! Too bad they too have families whom they break their hearts...

 

 

 

I am sorry to hear that your sister is 34 and acting like a teenager. I am sorry to hear that you have this tpe of differences with your mother. I think I'd loose my objectivity too if I had this type of situation in my family. Moose, it's great that you realized you need not fight for them to change... Try love them more, you'll see it will do them much good and it will free your heart from your anger. Find your peace of heart, Moose, love your sister no matter what she does and who she does it with. It's your family. Plus, the release of tension will do your heart lots of good .

[sinner]

Rape is not committed only by the sick or pathological. Mass rape, for example, is often used as a tool in time of war. The Soviet Army in East Prussia, the Pakastini army in Bangla Desh, the Serbian troops in Bosnia and the Arab Sudanese in Darfur all used rape as a tool of oppression. The book to read: Against Our Will, Susan Brownmiller.

 

Rape is about sex in the service of power, violence and subjugation. Rational people rape.

[Fayebelle]

A normal guy could spend the evening w/a woman wearing nothing but a thong- end of the nt she takes her purse to head out the door- he would beg, cry, perhaps curse, get blue balls, and call it a nt.

 

A sicko (even slightly off) could spend the evening w/ a woman in jeans and a turtleneck and claim she had it coming for flirting.

 

The difference is the guy- not the woman.

 

And of course the victim/attacker roles can be reversed at all times for gender and age where applicable. These are just examples

[HokeyReligions]

What's in a name? A rose, by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

I've called my sister a LOT worse than 'whore'!

 

Why do we call people names at all? Well, one reason is because words have a lot of power and by expressing an emotion with a single word or short phrase, we can say a lot. All the negative connotations associated with the word 'whore' is what Moose's sister heard. It was said to demonstrate his disgust and disapporval and dissapointment for her actions (I think, do I have that right Moose?)

 

I could have railed at my sister for days and explained my POV or what I thought about her, but I was able to express what I felt and thought about her with a few choice words.

 

Many of those words are inciteful - they will draw a response out of someone. We see that here on LS enough! Maybe even open up a dialogue that will be beneficial. Sometimes putting someone on the defensive will open them up to understanding themselves and why they behave the way that they do, but I don't think that is very common. More likely, it is simply a brief way to express a lot of emotion.

 

When my husband says I'm being a bitch today, I know that my behavior is irritating or hurting him in some way.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole rape argument again. That is WAY off track of this original thread and the discussion does not belong here, and I wouldn't be surprised if the moderators deleted those posts.

 

I disagree somewhat with you Moose, in that I don't see any harm in flirting or using sensuality for personal gain. The line is when sex is performed for money or other material gain. "Hey, want this TV? Bend over" That's what I'm talking about. Not a plunging neckline and short skirt to reduce a traffic ticket to a warning.

[Fayebelle]

plllgh!

 

Seriously though- the creater of rape as a tool IS sick- and ill people often make things that trace back to their illness seem normal- but they aren't

 

There is also the war tool known as Mass Genocide- care to argue the sanity of Hitler?

[Moose]

Originally posted by DerangedAngel

F*ck, no. She did not get away with something.

 

In your opinion (unless you want to say you misspoke), a woman should be punished by rape for doing any/all of the above. And if she isn't, well, she just got away with it? Because she did something wrong?

 

What the f*ck? Do you not see how messed up that sounds?

 

-Deranged

 

DE, not punished.....noone deserves rape, and if I have to say that one more time, I'm going to SCREAM!!!!

 

I'm saying that by doing any/all of those things is going to draw some attention and God forbid it be from a sicko, so don't do it, if you get hurt doing it, learn from it and take precautions to avoid it. I'm saying that women who goes out like this and behaves like this should'nt be too surprised if something like that happens. And yes, it's because she did something wrong.

 

What, do you think it's ok to rub your crotch on men acting like you're going to put out to him and then tell him to get lost? That's not wrong? Don't you see how messed up that sounds? That would piss anyone off, and as we all should know, some people you just don't want to take a chance and piss off. It could be deadly!!!

 

Man, what is wrong with me saying that women need to be extra careful with how they dress and act? How they use their bodies? Is everyone that close minded? I happen to care, I'm not putting anyone down or saying they deserve to be raped, I'm saying you should take more precautions and always be aware.......got IT!!!!!

[littleflowerpot]

curly is right. how far do we have to go to protect ourselves from being attractive to men that wish to abuse and rape us? does that mean that if we wear a sweater and skirt that shows our curves, we are inviting men to rape us? where is the boundary line? must we wear shapeless shifts and blouses buttoned up to our necks to make sure men don't think we are inviting rape? this may seem extreme but i don't think it's any more extreme than men blaming our clothes for the heinous acts they might commit.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Moose

DE, not punished.....noone deserves rape, and if I have to say that one more time, I'm going to SCREAM!!!!

 

but YOU said we deserved what we got and i'm assuming you mean rape if we dressed provocatively. you said it! please don't make me hunt down that quote.

[Girlie]

I agree that you can't spend your life worrying about protecting yourself from everyone. But I still think it's important to try to make smart choices...at least that's my opinion after what happened to me. I'm not saying I never dress sexy or anything like that. I'm talking more about situations than dress. Like I said, Moose, I understand your point to some degree. But I don't think dress has as much to do with it as you do. Combining that with putting yourself in certain situations, however, can be hazardous. But I could have been wearing anything to be honest. It really wouldn't have mattered all that much, although I may not have attracted the loser I did if I had had a little more on...I will admit that.

[DerangedAngel]

I'm going to SCREAM!!!!

 

Yeah, well, that makes two of us. You either do not understand my point, or you're trying to make light of your previous comment.

 

I gave you the opportunity to say you misspoke, and you didn't take it.

 

If you say a woman got away with something, that means she did something wrong, and that means she deserved to be punished.

 

So I completely disagree.

 

I'm saying you should take more precautions and always be aware.......got IT!!!!!

 

Sigh. And I'm saying women who dress in a revealing manner and do not get raped are not getting away with something. That's how it should be.

 

-DA

[Mr Spock]

Originally posted by sinner

Rape is not committed only by the sick or pathological. Mass rape, for example, is often used as a tool in time of war. The Soviet Army in East Prussia, the Pakastini army in Bangla Desh, the Serbian troops in Bosnia and the Arab Sudanese in Darfur all used rape as a tool of oppression. The book to read: Against Our Will, Susan Brownmiller.

 

Rape is about sex in the service of power, violence and subjugation. Rational people rape.

 

See you've already made your way down here. I'll put my whiskey bottle away.

[InmannRoshi]

Again, its funny how this thread has conveniently turned from the original topic of women using their sexuality to manipulate for their own personal gain to women actually being the victims of their sexuality.

 

This "rape" topic has proved to be a highly successfull strawman.

[Moose]

Originally posted by littleflowerpot

but YOU said we deserved what we got and i'm assuming you mean rape if we dressed provocatively. you said it! please don't make me hunt down that quote.

 

Don't worry, you don't have to hunt down the qoute, and I didn't mis speak, I didn't JUST say the way you dress, I included being flirtatious, slutty, hanging all over men...noone deserves to get raped, if something happens to you because of your actions, then you deserve what you get.

 

You should expect that a man is going to lust after you and would want to have sex with you after the way you acted. I don't even know if I'd call it rape, I really don't know what I'd call it at all! A man would expect it is what I'm trying to say I guess.

 

Afterall, like I've said before, and please flower, please get it this time ok? Women use their body for gain, happens all the time, when she's at a bar, buzzed, flirting, sitting on men's laps and rubbing her parts on him, what do you think she should expect? That the gentleman is going to realize, (As buzzed as he might be), that the woman is drunk and he shouldn't take advantage of that? I'm sorry, but there are no gentleman anymore!!! Like Spock said, preconcieved notions aren't being taken into concideration anymore, people are sick of them, they want to be whomever, whenever.

 

There are a lot of factors leading up to the trauma of rape in most cases. All I'm saying is that precautions need to be taken.

 

I don't think women should wear smocks, and veils, cover themselves up or anything like that. I do wish that more women would take necessary measures to minimize the risks. Women who use their bodies for gain put themselves into a catagory labeled, "I show flesh, and I'll do more too if you make it worth my while."

 

You can say whatever you want, it doesn't mean what I just said isn't true. I'm a man, I know how men think, AND I'M A TAME MAN!!!! Think about other men, many of which I could give actual examples, that aren't!!!! I don't think there is a simple solution to this, and to be honest, it doesn't matter what I say to you Flower, you're going to disagree with me with every fiber of your being. I beg to say that most who will read this thread would agree with me though on most of my points.

 

Women like you who think they should be able to walk down the road naked, and expect men to contain themselves are fooling themselves. I would be able to, and I'd say the majority would be able to. BUT NOT ALL MEN!!! SO WHY TAKE THAT CHANCE???????!!!!!! That's what I mean by you deserve what's coming, it's foolish to say the least when you have the knowledge that not all men are sane enough to control themselves.

 

IF, that doesn't happen after your naked stroll through the city, then, and this is for you Deranged Angel, you got away with playing with fire. You don't need to give me an opportunity to say that I misspoke.....who are you? I don't need your opportunity to do anything!!! It's my opinions and I will express them they way I see fit!! Yes, I said it, a woman is doing something terribly wrong when she flaunts her body around and intentionally arouses men then leaves expecting that the men are going to be civil and realize that she's drunk and she should just sober up and get right. NOT ALL MEN ARE SANE ENOUGH TO NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT SITUATION!!!! So yes, if you can wake up the next morning without something happening to you, you got away with it. IF, she woke up battered and bruised, raped.....then I'm sorry and sad to say, it was coming to her through her actions.

 

Sigh. And I'm saying women who dress in a revealing manner and do not get raped are not getting away with something. That's how it should be.

 

Sigh all you want, you're not reading everything are you???? Women who dress in a revealing manner don't deserve rape, they should be able to dress the way they want I agree. BUT, you combine that with alcohol, drugs, a party enviroment, then she feels buzzed and relaxed enough to start physically touching men, rubbing up against them, she would be a very lucky woman if she woke up the next morning without someone either in her bed, or at the very least, not laid that night. She got away with it.

 

And like Girlie said, it really doesn't matter all that much what you wear, that makes the situation even worse!!!! I'm just saying that women need to be cautious, don't be alone, go with a girlfriend if your going out, and when you want to feel and dress sexy, take your man with you. I know it's a pain having to take the extra steps to protect yourself, ( Women already have the short end of the stick in life if you ask me ), but you will be safer and will probably not have to go through what millions of other women have been through.

 

There's been several posts on this thread since I started typing, so I hope I didn't duplicate what others wrote, but these are my thoughts and opinions, prove me wrong.

[Papillon]

Sexuality is the cosmic forge that powers human relationships. Everything we do, from working, to playing, to waging war, has its roots in sexuality. That yin/yang between men and women will always be there, and the surface tension between the different gender layers binds us together, just as it seperates us.

 

It does not matter if a woman is attractive or not, simply being around a normal guy will generate electricity in his mind. There's no stopping it. The only difference is the amount of current being sparked...

[InmannRoshi]

If you take away the hotbutton issue of "rape" and replace it with something else, its not difficult to realize the distinction Moose is making....

 

If you knowingly get behind the wheel drunk and drive, you don't "deserve" to die in a tragic car wreck. However, your behavour did put you at a higher risk of that happening.

[Fayebelle]

http://www.lyrics007.com/Kenny%20Chesney%20Lyrics/She%20Thinks%20My%20Tractor's%20Sexy%20Lyrics.html

 

ignore the ads and scroll down to the song

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by InmannRoshi

Again, its funny how this thread has conveniently turned from the original topic of women using their sexuality to manipulate for their own personal gain to women actually being the victims of their sexuality.

 

This "rape" topic has proved to be a highly successfull strawman.

 

except you keep conveniently forgetting that the subject of rape in regards to the topic was introduced by moose with this quote: "Any woman who ignorantly places herself in a situation around drunkin' men, wearing next to nothing, and flaunting her body all over the place will deserve exactly what she invites. Many will argue with me and try to tell me that a woman should be able to go anywhere and do anything, naked or no, a man is to have self control. Sorry, but not ALL MEN can control themselves. There are sickos out here, real men who are real sick, that won't think twice about the consequences if he takes that woman against her will, rape and kill her."

 

moose: you said, "You should expect that a man is going to lust after you and would want to have sex with you after the way you acted. I don't even know if I'd call it rape, I really don't know what I'd call it at all! A man would expect it is what I'm trying to say I guess."

 

if she says no, even after making out with the guy in the alley, it would be rape to force her into anything after she says no. i don't care if you think she's a pr*ck tease or you thought badly of her, it would still be rape if she said no. it doesn't matter of the guy thinks she led him on. it's not okay.

[littleflowerpot]

"Women like you who think they should be able to walk down the road naked, and expect men to contain themselves are fooling themselves. I would be able to, and I'd say the majority would be able to. BUT NOT ALL MEN!!! SO WHY TAKE THAT CHANCE???????!!!!!! That's what I mean by you deserve what's coming, it's foolish to say the least when you have the knowledge that not all men are sane enough to control themselves."

 

first of all, i know you didn't say i WANTED to walk down the road naked but i'm just making sure everyone out there knows i'm not planning on walking down the road naked.

 

secondly, i agree women should be careful because there are animals in the world that take things just because they want them. i understand common sense. what i'm saying is that men are accountable for the things they do. i think it's b.s. to blame a woman for the heinous act of rape and i don't care how she's dressed. when you say you wouldn't call it rape that's kinda excusing the crime and telling guys it's okay 'cause men will be men. i have more faith in most men then that. of course, i don't rub up against dudes in bars either but that's just me using some common sense.

 

one little example: a ten year old goes to the ice cream truck and pulls out a twenty. there are a gang of neighborhood thugs around the truck as well. as the truck pulls away, the thugs beat up the kid and steal his money. theoretically the boy might have been smarter than to pull out such a big bill (for a kid anyway) in front of thugs that look like thugs but does that make him responsible for the crime? hell no. that's all i'm saying. you don't need to go around giving men excuses for crimes they commit and telling them it's okay, they were enticed into it.

[Moose]

if she says no, even after making out with the guy in the alley, it would be rape to force her into anything after she says no. i don't care if you think she's a pr*ck tease or you thought badly of her, it would still be rape if she said no. it doesn't matter of the guy thinks she led him on. it's not okay.

 

No where did I ever say it was ok. You think I'm such a terrible person, you have me all wrong!!! I don't care if she's a pr*ck tease or not, but I'm not whacked in the head either. But there are a lot of men who are and that's who I'm talking about. I don't think it's ok at all....but I do think that if a woman puts herself into that set of circumstances, she stands a good chance of getting hurt and she should have enough brains to realize this. If not, then it's her bed and she should lie in it. Hopefully she'll learn from it and she won't allow herself to be taken advantage of again.

[Moose]

that's all i'm saying. you don't need to go around giving men excuses for crimes they commit and telling them it's okay, they were enticed into it.

 

WHAT????? Where do you see anywhere that I'm making excuses for these sickos???? You just don't get it do you???? I would love to catch all rapists and give them 10 times the pain they caused on women!!! I'm in no way making excuses for them or trying to make it sound like it's the woman's fault.

 

 

[color=red]I'm Just trying to say that all of these circumstances put together is a recipe for disaster, that women should be more alert to it, and not to put themselves in harms way. Geeeeeeez!!![/color]