beliefs on marriage.. before and after the 'A'

[Got it]

So if the fact that being on this forum is supposedly some indication of an unhappy marriage, are you in an unhappy marriage? Is everyone who is on this forum in an unhappy R?

 

I think when one has not been in the triangle it is odd to spend as much time here and pontificate as much and I wonder if one's spouse, if it is not the BS, WS or OP would think when their significant other focuses on affairs so much.

 

I was a MOW, I am with the MM in my affair as we are now both divorced, so obviously the discussion of affairs is something that is prevalent in our lives and our discussions so not uncommon to be here. He is aware I am here, he is aware of what I discuss as I will run things by him, get his thoughts, etc. I think if I was with another person and I was on a board discussing affairs he would find it potentially odd to disturbing to have me so focused on them. If I was with someone other than my AP, I would not focus on affairs once I past through the healing process of it. And I would not be so focused on a relationship, even relationship style that I shared with someone else especially if I was happy in my current relationship.

 

So it may be a matter of opinion and we can agree to disagree but above is my logic and confusion on it.

[Pierre]

Really!?! Does she know how much time you spend on the computer discussing affairs? Does she think it is odd?

 

I show her my posts. I type while we are both in bed. She gives me suggestions as to what to say.

 

Are you implying that I have an Internet affair with a forum member?:p:p

[Got it]

Jeez no. But I do think you do focus a great deal of your day on affairs and have an unhealthy fixation with affairs and . . . well listening to the sound of your own voice/ key strokes.

 

I gave my reasoning on why I find it odd.

[cocorico]

Don't worry about it. If one has an opinion that differs from another, we often see the "but you must be really unhappy if you're posting here" mantra trotted out.

 

I'm more of the opinion that if you're on LS when you're in bed with your SO, instead of doing what couples do in bed, you must be really unhappy.

[Pierre]

Jeez no. But I do think you do focus a great deal of your day on affairs and have an unhealthy fixation with affairs and . . . well listening to the sound of your own voice/ key strokes.

 

I gave my reasoning on why I find it odd.

 

Is this a variation of "you post to much therefore, you have no life":D:D:D

 

I actually enjoy reading the stories. I also think that I can provide a perspective that is a bit different. OTOH, you who advise everybody to drink the Kool Aid.

[Pierre]

I'm more of the opinion that if you're on LS when you're in bed with your SO, instead of doing what couples do in bed, you must be really unhappy.

 

:laugh:

 

Coco strikes again!

[LFH]

Oops, I would love to hear your explanation of love.

 

Please concentrate on the love OM feels for you and his wife.

 

Do not concentrate on wanting to be loved as a form of love. I get it and it is not healthy.

 

And to bring the issue of commitment in the part of the forum dedicated to bring support to those that lack commitment is a bit odd. However, I await your explanation.

 

I'm confused. I can't answer for anyone else. I can tell you the actions he shows me that show me that he loves me.

I can tell you how I feel about him.

Love entails committment to me.

 

My definition (not explanation)of love... love requires no explanation, it just is a very deep connection with someone. Real love requires an emotional, intellectual and physical connection. It means that you accept the person for who they are, flaws and all, that while you may want to help them be a better person in some areas, you love them as they are... and aren't looking to change them. It is a friendship that is based on mutal LIKING of one another with the desire of more, of a physical connection as well. A deep underlying desire for the happiness of that person, ideally a happiness you create together, but happiness even if it's NOT what would make you happy. The love one feels for their partner should encompass all pieces of love, a friendship, The enduring love of committment, the passionate love and desire, true affection and caring.

 

It's hard to define love, but I don't think it's real love unless it encompasses all of that. I'm not an expert by any means, but I also think if you have to ask, you've never been in love.

I've loved 2 men in my life.

 

Those are also the only 2 I've ever used the word with.

[Pierre]

I'm confused. I can't answer for anyone else. I can tell you the actions he shows me that show me that he loves me.

I can tell you how I feel about him.

Love entails committment to me.

 

My definition (not explanation)of love... love requires no explanation, it just is a very deep connection with someone. Real love requires an emotional, intellectual and physical connection. It means that you accept the person for who they are, flaws and all, that while you may want to help them be a better person in some areas, you love them as they are... and aren't looking to change them. It is a friendship that is based on mutal LIKING of one another with the desire of more, of a physical connection as well. A deep underlying desire for the happiness of that person, ideally a happiness you create together, but happiness even if it's NOT what would make you happy. The love one feels for their partner should encompass all pieces of love, a friendship, The enduring love of committment, the passionate love and desire, true affection and caring.

 

It's hard to define love, but I don't think it's real love unless it encompasses all of that. I'm not an expert by any means, but I also think if you have to ask, you've never been in love.

I've loved 2 men in my life.

 

Those are also the only 2 I've ever used the word with.

 

I have no issues with your definition at the metaphysical level.

 

These are some of my observations:

 

1. Yes, I have felt everything you describe and more. It is a powerful emotion.

 

2. However, love is also an addiction to something that is very gratifying to us. ('Romantic Love Is an Addiction,' Researchers Say | LiveScience)

 

3. Love is also a change in brain chemistry (The science of love)

 

4. Love is nature's way to trick us into replication of DNA.

 

Like you I am 100% certain your MM is in deep love with you. But, here is the issue. He is in love with you within the affair bubble or the affair universe. The love is very real, but you also acknowledge he loves his own wife who lives in another universe. The love for you is new and romantic. The love for the wife is old----------- long term attachment. As you already guessed these two form of love can coexist.

 

So why do so many single OWs are thrown under the bus on d-day even though the MM is in love?

[Got it]

Is this a variation of "you post to much therefore, you have no life":D:D:D

 

I actually enjoy reading the stories. I also think that I can provide a perspective that is a bit different. OTOH, you who advise everybody to drink the Kool Aid.

 

I think I was very clear in what I was saying so any obtuseness would be manufactured.

 

I think you have a very odd attraction to affairs. You speak about others and opine about their mental state, so I would think turn around is fair play. I think for being in a relationship not continuing an affair it is odd to focus so much on affairs. Look at your posting habits on LS. It is focused on affairs, it is just a wide spread net of networking. I find that odd. I am not discussing your happiness level nor your time online. Neither is germane to my point.

 

What perspective to you give that is different? Why would yours be different or unique from anyone else? Is it because it is without any real life basis so it is just fantasy? That would be unique.

 

Please cite where I advise anyone to "drink the Kool aide"? And what Kool aide is that?

[Pierre]

I think I was very clear in what I was saying so any obtuseness would be manufactured.

 

I think you have a very odd attraction to affairs. You speak about others and opine about their mental state, so I would think turn around is fair play. I think for being in a relationship not continuing an affair it is odd to focus so much on affairs. Look at your posting habits on LS. It is focused on affairs, it is just a wide spread net of networking. I find that odd. I am not discussing your happiness level nor your time online. Neither is germane to my point.

 

What perspective to you give that is different? Why would yours be different or unique from anyone else? Is it because it is without any real life basis so it is just fantasy? That would be unique.

 

Please cite where I advise anyone to "drink the Kool aide"? And what Kool aide is that?

 

I am more than happy to undergo psychoanalysis under your care.

 

Yes, you are correct. I tend to post too much, keeps me busy.

[LFH]

I have no issues with your definition at the metaphysical level.

 

These are some of my observations:

 

1. Yes, I have felt everything you describe and more. It is a powerful emotion.

 

2. However, love is also an addiction to something that is very gratifying to us. ('Romantic Love Is an Addiction,' Researchers Say | LiveScience)

 

3. Love is also a change in brain chemistry (The science of love)

 

4. Love is nature's way to trick us into replication of DNA.

 

Like you I am 100% certain your MM is in deep love with you. But, here is the issue. He is in love with you within the affair bubble or the affair universe. The love is very real, but you also acknowledge he loves his own wife who lives in another universe. The love for you is new and romantic. The love for the wife is old----------- long term attachment. As you already guessed these two form of love can coexist.

 

So why do so many single OWs are thrown under the bus on d-day even though the MM is in love?

 

Seriously? This is your answer to me after I took the time to honestly try and define something that really defies most definitions? A bunch of psychobabble that you are regurgitating over and over? I am not sure why I bothered.

Of course love is chemicaland scientific and all that other stuff, but if you don't have all of it, you've got nothing. So it doesn't really matter why, if it's not what you want and need.

 

Stop trying to twist what I say or throw your little affair bubble up at me. We live a very real life together, one that has as many complications and roadblocks and pitfalls as a marriage. We're years in dude... YEARS, it's not exactly a flash in the pan.

 

I know he loves his wife, and I know his reasons for staying where he is. I know my reasons for being ok with him staying where he is, but trust me, there's no bubble or fog or fluff.

 

I certainly don't need YOU to convince me he loves me.

 

You can't fit everyone into a little compartment. I think it frustrates you a little that I don't fit into your mold. You always seem to want to try and "peg me down" a bit, but really I just want people to be honest with themselves, not generalize and make assumptions based on what happesn for some or all or most.

 

Whatever their choice.

 

My definition of love stands. Take it or leave it, but I truly believe that anyone that only views love as a chemical or scientific phenomenon has never really been in love. Anyone that settles for only pieces has never really been in love. I also assumed that the chemical and scientific part was a given. After all, I don't think any of us are 12 and it appears we can all read.

[Pierre]

Seriously? This is your answer to me after I took the time to honestly try and define something that really defies most definitions? A bunch of psychobabble that you are regurgitating over and over? I am not sure why I bothered.

Of course love is chemicaland scientific and all that other stuff, but if you don't have all of it, you've got nothing. So it doesn't really matter why, if it's not what you want and need.

 

Stop trying to twist what I say or throw your little affair bubble up at me. We live a very real life together, one that has as many complications and roadblocks and pitfalls as a marriage. We're years in dude... YEARS, it's not exactly a flash in the pan.

 

I know he loves his wife, and I know his reasons for staying where he is. I know my reasons for being ok with him staying where he is, but trust me, there's no bubble or fog or fluff.

 

I certainly don't need YOU to convince me he loves me.

 

You can't fit everyone into a little compartment. I think it frustrates you a little that I don't fit into your mold. You always seem to want to try and "peg me down" a bit, but really I just want people to be honest with themselves, not generalize and make assumptions based on what happesn for some or all or most.

 

Whatever their choice.

 

My definition of love stands. Take it or leave it, but I truly believe that anyone that only views love as a chemical or scientific phenomenon has never really been in love. Anyone that settles for only pieces has never really been in love. I also assumed that the chemical and scientific part was a given. After all, I don't think any of us are 12 and it appears we can all read.

 

Did you read No. 1? I agreed with your definition.

 

Yes, you are a different OW with no expectations of MM leaving his marriage and accepting the MM loves his wife. That makes you different from the more naive OW that shows up in the forum regularly.

 

If you are willing to see the physiological side of love and the emotional side I also agree with you.

[Got it]

Actually, I agree with you here. I would never settle for bits and pieces myself, but I see a lot of settling going on in this forum.

 

Really? You settling?

[cocorico]

Actually, I agree with you here. I would never settle for bits and pieces myself, but I see a lot of settling going on in this forum.

 

In all these forums, typically. That's why most people are here.

 

Married to so,some who cheated on you, who still has feelings for another that you hope they will ultimately get over? That's settling.

 

Stuck in a sexless M? That's settling.

 

Working at a job you hate because you don't see any options? That's settling.

 

Stuck living with parents who diss you? That's settling.

 

Dating a guy whose primary R is with his Wii? That's settling.

 

Etc.

 

I reckon having someone's heart and soul, even if their body is imprisoned in a vestigial M, is probably one of the better options to "settle" for, but that's JMO.

[stevie_23]

I am a major settler.

 

1. Dissatisfied with my job, and have always been in every job I've ever had.

 

2. Sexless long term relationship, which I had an affair outside of, for almost 2 years

 

3. That affair was long distance and online, no physical contact

 

All settling!

 

LFH, I love that you argue against the notion that your MM's love for you is confined to that "affair bubble". I'd never thought about this bubble theory before Pierre mentioned it to me, but in my specific case, my ex-MM and I were definitely in that bubble.

 

We didn't WANT our relationship and love only confined to the bubble, but we had so many obstacles in our way that this was all it could ever be...

 

I then for a while assumed every single couple conducting an affair was in that bubble, unless the MM (or whoever is married in that scenario, one or both) eventually left and then it became more "real" and bubble-independent. Either that, or once the bubble burst, it was over (as in my situation, although we had 4 bubble explosions before he couldn't take it anymore and left).

 

But now I've revised that. You and your MM are not in any bubble. It's been too long and you both seem to have been able to make it work your way. I hope that continues and you're both happy together for a long time, if not forever.

 

My ex-MM and I were in that bubble, but we tried hard NOT to be. I didn't even feel like I was IN an affair until after it ended. It just felt like a relationship. We tried to be as real and normal as we possibly could, and if certain things were different with our situations, we would have been bubble-independent too. It just wasn't meant for us though.

 

Has your MM ever had a D-day with his wife though? If he did, what do you honestly think would happen?

 

1. His wife would want to work on the marriage and he would stay, but continue with his relationship with you?

 

2. His wife would want to work on the marriage and he would leave you?

 

3. They would separate / get divorced and he would be with you only?

Edited February 14, 2013 by stevie_23

[woinlove]

I reckon having someone's heart and soul, even if their body is imprisoned in a vestigial M, is probably one of the better options to "settle" for, but that's JMO.

 

 

Hey, don't let them fool you about being imprisoned, when they themselves are the key holders!

[Journee]

In all these forums, typically. That's why most people are here.

 

 

I reckon having someone's heart and soul, even if their body is imprisoned in a vestigial M, is probably one of the better options to "settle" for, but that's JMO.

 

 

I doubt that is common place. If someone is the keeper of one's heart and soul then the decision to become un"stuck" should not be that difficult. No one is confined in these situations. Just excuses. Justifications to lie and be deceitful. To hurt people and not bat an eye.

 

One can find a new job without devastating and hurting people.

 

One can move into their own place if living arrangements are not tolerable.

 

It just takes some effort and time. How can betraying anyone be the lesser of these situations? Who would rather be in an affair than job hunt? Seriously. Even if it takes time and effort to find new employment how could that possibly be comparable?

 

Gives insight to how some view the hurt that is caused in A's.

[MissBee]

Hey, don't let them fool you about being imprisoned, when they themselves are the key holders!

 

 

I was about to say! The problem is, it begins to look really pathetic when you think you have someone's heart and soul, supposedly, but they are "imprisoned" to a marriage they don't want. Be suspicious. Be very suspicious. Even if you don't think of yourself as settling as the OW...your MM who supposedly is over the moon about you but imprisoned (LOL ) clearly is. Well actually, not really, as it seems having it both ways is a different matter entirely.

 

Frankly, I don't see the purpose of having someone's heart and soul if it can't be made manifest in legitimate ways. You start to get into fantasy territory there. Where if all we have to do is on some intangible level say someone has our heart and soul and we love them so much...we're just imprisoned (by our own circumstances which we chose and have power over ) so we can love them in our hearts...while in real life nothing really happens...welll...I don't find that appealing.

 

To tie this back to the original topic: affair reasoning I read here helps me to think differently about marriage, for the better I'd say. For one: no relationship can thrive on just certain aspects. The affair, albeit described as the greatest love by many, seems to wither away and fizzle upon dday for most. Marriage, which for most seems to start with the same kind of in love feelings, falls prey to As. Relationships are vulnerable, people are vulnerable and clearly "feeling inlove" is NOT the end all be all to any kind of romantic relationship. It' a start...it's an aspect...but won't sustain the relationship forever. Seeing this play out over and over again makes me realize how much intention and conscious decision making and cultivating goes into committed relationships and I think I'm better for knowing that.

[LFH]

I am a major settler.

 

1. Dissatisfied with my job, and have always been in every job I've ever had.

 

2. Sexless long term relationship, which I had an affair outside of, for almost 2 years

 

3. That affair was long distance and online, no physical contact

 

All settling!

 

LFH, I love that you argue against the notion that your MM's love for you is confined to that "affair bubble". I'd never thought about this bubble theory before Pierre mentioned it to me, but in my specific case, my ex-MM and I were definitely in that bubble.

 

We didn't WANT our relationship and love only confined to the bubble, but we had so many obstacles in our way that this was all it could ever be...

 

I then for a while assumed every single couple conducting an affair was in that bubble, unless the MM (or whoever is married in that scenario, one or both) eventually left and then it became more "real" and bubble-independent. Either that, or once the bubble burst, it was over (as in my situation, although we had 4 bubble explosions before he couldn't take it anymore and left).

 

But now I've revised that. You and your MM are not in any bubble. It's been too long and you both seem to have been able to make it work your way. I hope that continues and you're both happy together for a long time, if not forever.

 

My ex-MM and I were in that bubble, but we tried hard NOT to be. I didn't even feel like I was IN an affair until after it ended. It just felt like a relationship. We tried to be as real and normal as we possibly could, and if certain things were different with our situations, we would have been bubble-independent too. It just wasn't meant for us though.

 

Has your MM ever had a D-day with his wife though? If he did, what do you honestly think would happen?

We haven't had an official dday although he did have a couple conversations with her that went something like "This isn't working, we need to do something about this, she literally told him she would not discuss it, that she likes things the way they are. He said, but what if I told you there was someone else and she said I don't want to hear that, stop talking about it, I don't want to talk about it, just go buy me something pretty. Then, she posted about the conversation on her facebook as well. *eyeroll*

1. His wife would want to work on the marriage and he would stay, but continue with his relationship with you?

This is sort of what would happen I think. I don't know that she will ever want to work on things. She's good with their status quo.

2. His wife would want to work on the marriage and he would leave you?

No. I know that everyone thinks that, or at least wants to think that, but he's made a committment to me, and it's pretty important to both of us. Something pretty dramatic would have to happen for us to decide to end it because of a dday.

3. They would separate / get divorced and he would be with you only?No, I don't think so. He has a world there that suits a need for him as well. He LIKES being married and I won't marry him. We'd both love it if we could have something permanent and long term and "forever" and traditional, but we can't. Because we can't, I won't marry him. I won't compromise my choices because he suddenly felt like doing something else. I'd be thrilled though if he did leave for himself. That would make me happy for him and he could be with me as much as he wanted. If he ever left FOR me though I woudln't be happy at all. [/QUOTE]

 

My answers in bold.

[LFH]

Yes. And no one can say for sure what would happen if a BS declared in no uncertain terms that the A must end or the M will be over. Not even the WS. They may speculate, and so may the AP, but until reality hits, NO one knows. No one.

 

That's true. No one does know.

Not the OW/OM, not the WS and not the BS.

 

I always find ultimatiums interesting.

[Journee]

That's true. No one does know.

Not the OW/OM, not the WS and not the BS.

 

I always find ultimatiums interesting.

 

Never say never I suppose. It is futile to ascertain or be completely certain what another individual can and will do. Heck, sometimes I imagine they don't know what they will do either.

[LFH]

Why the last statement? You find it "interesting" that someone wouldn't willingly watch their spouse go have sex with someone else on a regular basis? I find that completely natural myself, and if I were to ever discover my H taking up with someone else, I can't be sure what I would do. However, I know for a FACT that I would NOT stand for sharing a man with some other woman. Ever.

Because I do find giving ultimatiums interesting. It wasn't meant as any kind of attack or throw down. I find telling someone that it's this or that and you decide right now... is unrealistic. I think that the person who is upset is the one that should be calling the shots. I think often ultimatiums are thrown out in the heat of the moment and people have an expectation that things are going to go a certain way... and then a lot of times they don't, and then the person that issued it backs down too.

 

I'm not just saying BS before anyone thinks that's an attack on them, Lots of OW/OM do it too, and a lot of times it's the one issuing the ultimatium that is the one that ends up losing their power. That's why I find them interesting.

 

No I would never watch my spouse go have sex with someone else either. I'd also be very unlikely to stay with someone who had done so, because I'd have trust issues and know myself well enough to know I'd never overcome that. If I found out I certainly wouldn't be giving him a choice. I'd be like, this is what I have to do for me now, and you will have to deal with that consequence.

 

It was actually kind of a random thought as I was typing because it had occured to me how MANY times ultimatiums get issued by someone in a triangle.

[William]

Due to a conformance alert, moderation has deemed this thread to be topical to this forum and has interpreted the starting post question to be directed at 'affair partners', meaning OW/OM and WS, hence those are the parties directed to comment here.

 

Affair partners, what are your beliefs on marriage, before/during and after the affair?

[LFH]

 

A M, or any committed R, should be one in which both partners are happy with the way they are being treated and the way the R is handled.

 

I just thought this should be said again. I agree 100% with that statement.

[stevie_23]

I like your answers, LFH.

 

You seem to have a fairly stable long term arrangement going on. Your MM's wife seems...odd. She won't even acknowledge that he isn't happy in their marriage and he pretty much told her (in hypothetical terms) that he has someone else around (you), and she just...didn't want to know, and then posted the discussion on Facebook!? Wow!

 

I hope that your A doesn't end the way mine did. I don't think it will (how long have you been together?), but...I just hope it doesn't. I really thought my ex-MM and I were in it for the long haul too. He'd had 3 D-Days already and never left me. For the most part of our relationship (of almost 2 years) we intended to somehow try to really BE together (not just long distance, online and working around our existing partners), but for the last 6 months those hopes were gone and we accepted this was all we would ever have, but it was still worth it. Until it wasn't anymore, to him.

 

He gets stuff out of his marriage that our relationship (even if it wasn't just an affair and long distance) cannot provide. Financial stability, someone to care for him health wise, etc.

 

Maybe the only main difference with us was that my ex-MM did tell me he would leave his wife. (before they were married 6 months ago I mean) The whole time we were together, up to that point, we discussed his plans to leave because he hadn't been happy there for a long time and it was getting worse (not because of his wife, but because of the living situation with her kids moving in with them). So I was sort of...waiting, the whole time. Hoping and waiting.

 

Meh.