A question for religious people?

[M30USA]

Yes.

but he explained it too.

 

Scientifically.

 

Everything can be explained scientifically. That doesn't explain it away. You are falling for the biggest misnotion of the 21st century: that explaining something with science means it somehow loses all possibility of being created by God. The Bible, itself, says that God laid the foundations of the world with knowledge. Why do you think that you, a mere human, who stumbles upon the knowledge created and used by God, can somehow explain him away using this very knowledge? Don't you see the error?

[OpenBook]

The Bible also claimed the sun orbited the earth, and that the world is flat.

 

Really?? I was not aware of that. Where does it say that in the Bible?

[ComingInHot]

Sir Isaac Newton;

" ‘This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. ...This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called “Lord God” παντοκρατωρ"

 

I came across this site after researching Newton/faith & science. The above quote from Sir Newton really struck a cord.

 

I appreciate those who decide God is Real because their premise is Not just based on only "blind faith" or that "want" of something more in questioning the reason for their life but founded in science and the sound conclusions drawn from the intimate study of our world based on supported fact proven through testing the theories from different angles concluding the same results.

 

(Can you say run-on sentence CIH? sorry

[JamesM]

harmful sweetz, where did you get those verses from?

 

There is much allegory in them versus literal. Going to all end of the earth or the four corners of the earth is figurative. This type of language is indicated when it says that "the Heavens declare..." as we know that the Heavens don't have a literal voice.

 

You cannot literally clothe someone in majesty or strength. The world is established as in the world is built. It is unmovable as in unchangeable. This is not a literal meaning of it cannot move physically.

 

This chapter speaks of the might of God and His creation and His kingdom.

 

As for Galileo and the controversy. read the Wiki link. It gives a good analysis. He also argued rightly that these verse were not literal. For instance, one could not see four angels at the ends of the earth even if the world was flat. And the verses you listed are figurative.

Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I think you are right in that these verses have been used to support the idea that was generally accepted in the world as well as the Catholic Church. However, it was also accepted by many in the church that these were figurative (ie Augustine).

 

I am not seeing where any verse claims that the world revolves around the sun or is flat unless when takes figurative language and tries to use it literally. But then I could be wrong.

 

The following verses can be used to state that the world is round.

Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6.

[BetheButterfly]

I didn't call your belief ridiculous.

 

My belief is "Christianity."

 

I called the contradiction between a loving god and a god that would send someone to hell for simply not believing ridiculous. Can't you see the contradiction between loving god and god that would send someone to a torture chamber (permanently or even temporarily is still evil)? That is what I was calling ridiculous. That's not love, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Horribly, life is "hell on earth" for thousands of people around the world. Do you know how many people have been tortured, raped, abused, enslaved, murdered? I don't, but I know the # is mind-boggling.

 

Hell on earth is very real and many of those who make life to be hell for people do not get punished for their crimes. Many people who make other peoples' lives hell on earth don't receive their punishment while they are living in their bodies.

 

God's love includes justice after death for those who have made life hell on earth for others. Now, I personally don't believe that all non-Christians go to hell, and I don't believe that all people who say they are Christian go to Heaven. Jesus made it clear that if his followers hurt others, they would not be accepted (Matthew 24:45-51).

 

Jesus' commands focus on love. Love between humans does not hurt others. However, God is not a human. God is Spirit. God is the Creator and He destroys, same as a human artist can create a work of art, and destroy it. Maybe people would say that human artist doesn't love his work, if he destroys the work he does that does not please him. Artists tend to save the work they have done that pleases them, and destroy what doesn't. That's the same as with God. You can call that unloving if you want, but what's interesting is that God is choosy about who He loves.

 

I personally don't like that God has allowed death and pain and sadness and heartbreak and allowed people to hurt each other. Sometimes I wish God had made people more like robots where we don't have a free will... or, I wish He would simply vanish anyone who hurts another person, but He didn't ask my advice. I wasn't here till just recently and my lifespan is very limited. Hundreds of years from now, it's possible noone on earth will even know my name, which is an interesting thought. For example, thousands of people who lived hundreds of years ago are not known by name by many people today.

 

Now, the idea that God does not exist is bleak because it justifies the idea that many people have, that they can hurt others and "get away with it" because no Supreme Judge will hold them accountable for how they hurt others after death (soul/spirit permanently leaving the body) So many people get away with hurting others while living. IS THAT LOVING? NOPE.

Even if I did call Christianity ridiculous, it makes no matter to me. It's an idea, and ideas are up for criticism. If someone wants to think atheism is ridiculous, fine. It's an idea, in the marketplace of ideas, and is open to criticism. People can criticize my lack of belief all they want, though I wonder quite what part of the doctrine that does not exist they are critiquing.

That's the thing though, many Christians on this forum (including me) are not criticizing your lack of belief in God. Although we don't agree with you, we are not calling what you think ridiculous. Why? Because tolerance and respect includes agreeing to disagree. People believe different things are true, but bigotry is when people don't tolerate or respect other ideas that are different.

 

I don't think ideas and beliefs should ever be above the point of criticism and evaluation. If they are, that's when stuff can get pretty dangerous. I understand that people hold their beliefs close to them, and when those beliefs get "attacked," it can feel quite personal. But it is not a personal attack. Religion should be on the table of discussion, both negatively and positively as much as any other topic

There is a way to criticize a belief without insulting it. For example, I don't believe Islam is true. The reason I don't believe Islam is true is because I don't believe Muhammad is truly a prophet from God. Why? Because his teachings and the Qur'an contradict in many places the Tanakh as well as the New Testament. I am not calling Islam derogatory adjectives; I am "criticizing" it though in the sense of explaining why I don't believe Islam is true.

 

And guess what? I personally believe that many Muslims, including Malala and her Dad, will go to Heaven. I don't know, but that's just what I believe. People are free to disagree with me, and that's ok. God is the One who knows. I am not God.

 

By the way, if I ever have the privilege of meeting Malala, I would never tell her Islam is "ridiculous." How rude and mean that would be, and untrue, because I actually don't think that Islam is ridiculous. If she wanted to know why I don't believe Islam is true, I would tell her, but I respect her belief and I have no desire to offend her or her belief, even though I don't believe that Islam is true. I love her with agape love no matter her belief!

 

If Gandhi were still alive and I could have had the honor of meeting him, I would not tell him his belief (Hinduism) is "ridiculous" - No! How rude and mean and untrue! I don't think Hinduism is ridiculous! If he wanted to know why I don't believe Hinduism is true, I would have told him. However, I respect his belief and his right to his belief and I love him with agape love no matter his belief!

 

If I ever have the honor of meeting Angelina Jolie, I would not tell her that Atheism is "ridiculous" How rude and mean and untrue! I don't think Atheism is ridiculous. Now, if she wanted to know why I wasn't an Atheist, I would tell her. However, I respect her believing that God doesn't exist, and I love her with agape love no matter that she does not share my beliefs in God.

 

I don't believe that people HAVE to be Christian in order to be loved and respected, no way! Respect and tolerance includes agreeing to disagree and not putting down/mocking/insulting what others believe or don't believe, and to me what is important is when people strive to make the world a better place! The earth is a painful place for so many people, but it's awesome when people, no matter their beliefs, strive to help others!!! That's what the world needs!!!

Edited February 15, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I've got a couple of questions for people who follow specific faiths (I'm thinking about Christianity mainly, although others are welcome to answer).

 

I was raised in a family of non-believers, and I myself am a non believer, although if I asked I guess you could say I'm officially a non-practising Christian due to my heritage. Anyway, my questions are mainly about heaven and hell.

 

I recommend that you read Rob Bell's controversial book "Love Wins". These questions have been asked for millennia, and his book is one of the more recent ones that addresses these questions. It's a quick read.

 

If you want to read something of more indepth on the theological side, Shirley Guthrie's "Christian Doctrine" is an excellent resource. He has a knack for explaining complex theological sticky points in a clear manner.

 

My personal view on the matter is that Jesus is who he said he was, and that he holds the keys to Heaven. He has the pejorative to let anyone in that he sees fit: a Jew, A Muslim, an Atheist, a kid born in the middle of China, even a Baptist or two. I feel that limiting the "litmus test" to John 3:16 alone diminishes the love and grace of God.

 

I would be very wary of anyone who says that they know for sure.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Betrayed&Stayed

[amaysngrace]

"science without religion is lame: religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

 

"you may call me agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is most likely due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being" - Albert Einstein

 

"in view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views"

- Albert Einstein

[M30USA]

The Bible also claimed the sun orbited the earth

 

So do modern, all-brilliant humans when they say "the sun sets".

 

, and that the world is flat.

 

Please provide me with a biblical reference. Here are some for you:

 

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22)

 

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;

he suspends the earth over nothing." (Job 26:7)

 

Sounds like a reference to gravity, which didn't become known until...what...4,000 years later?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

So do modern, all-brilliant humans when they say "the sun sets".

 

 

 

Please provide me with a biblical reference. Here are some for you:

 

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22)

 

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;

he suspends the earth over nothing." (Job 26:7)

 

Sounds like a reference to gravity, which didn't become known until...what...4,000 years later?

 

Is it possible that this is more of a reference to the ancient Egyptian view of the universe: Geb (Earth), Khepri (Sun movement), Nut (Sky), Nu (Abyss) etc.

 

The Egyptians believed that the universe was contained within a bubble. For example, Nut, (Sky) was bent over the earth to create the top of the bubble. Nu (Abyss, water) was the bottom of the bubble. Geb (Earth) was in the middle.

[ComingInHot]

Quick;

Oh. I didn't read where he said that...

[ComingInHot]

Quick;

I'm curious. I know you won't answer if you don't want to so I won't ask if you mind the question*

Your posts almost read w/a glint of anger behind them. (I could be mistaken. Maybe you're a man & that's how ALL your posts read).

 

If there IS some hostility, is it because you think people making the very personal choice to Believe in something greater and they are sincerely Happy living w/that choice, are idiots even though they may be intelligent, hold a great career, have a wonderful stable family?

Or did something Happen to you that was horrible by one of those religious fanatical hypocrites that most of us don't care for?

 

Please don't chew me up and spit me out for asking*

[pie2]

Maybe you're a man & that's how ALL your posts read.

 

Men!

 

j/k...I actually think women can be the hostile ones sometimes, lol!

 

Regarding the Newton quote you posted, I thought it was a beautiul quote. We all reach a point where our human minds can no longer grasp certain ideas (I get there a little sooner then most!), and we have to trust in God's wisdom.

Edited February 16, 2013 by pie2

[M30USA]

Secondly, people were perfectly capable of observing the effects of gravity prior to somebody formulating a theory about it. Thirdly, it has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

 

Gravitation is different from the observed phenomenon of something falling down to the ground. And you are wrong. NOBODY even had the foggiest idea that objects in the universe are pulled towards each other at a velocity directly proportional to their mass. Newton came up with his discovery because he asked a question which seems stupid and silly but is really profound: why didn't the apple fall UP or SIDEWAYS instead of down onto his head?

Edited February 16, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

He said this because he couldn't figure out the math behind it.

 

I got a chuckle out of that. Newton's formulas and theories for the paths of comets are still used to this day.

 

And, for the second time on this thread, knowledge does not and cannot explain away God or prove his existence. True science is nothing more than OBSERVATION. Those who attempt to use science to disprove God do not understand what science even is. It's funny...the people who ARE the most brilliant scientists of all time are the FIRST to admit science has fundamental limitations. Everyone else like you and I (the peons which get trickle-fed information) believe science can do more than what it, by definition, can do.

[BetheButterfly]

Again, I did not call Christianity ridiculous. This is the last time I'll be explaining this, because I think I was fairly clear (I hope I was) with what I was saying in my original post, and the subsequent posts that followed. The contradiction between a loving god and a god that would send someone to hell for a finite "crime" is ridiculous. Never once stated Christianity, as a whole, was ridiculous in this thread. There's little point in having a discussion with someone who refuses to read what is actually written, and instead applies their own version of it that does not resemble what I said.

 

When you wrote in post #17 that you despised Christianity, and then called an idea that many Christians ascribe to as being ridiculous, that did most definitely make me think you think Christianity is ridiculous, and thus why you despise it:

 

"And all of that accurately sums up why I despise Christianity.

...

The idea that a supposedly all-loving god would send someone to an eternal torture chamber for a finite "crime" is ridiculous. "

 

 

Now, I am sorry for assuming you thought all Christianity is ridiculous. That's why I thought you despise Christianity. I do understand why you despise Christianity, but as a Christian, it makes me sad that someone despises my belief. I don't despise Atheism or Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam or any other belief. I also do not believe that God puts everyone who is not a Christian into hell. That's not what Christianity is about. Christianity is about God's love through Jesus Christ.

 

 

Unfortunately, you are correct. Life is hell for many people here on earth. There are many people who do get away with horrific crimes, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to this thread, or even furthers the existence of god.

 

This thread deals with the issue of hell. I find the idea that God will judge those who get away with horrific crimes to be fair. Hell is the way God judges those who get away with hurting other people while living on earth. I do not think it is fair or loving at all for people to get away with horrific crimes on earth and not personally suffer the consequences for hurting other people.

 

Also, about the thousands of babies, kids, and adults who suffer and die in terrible poverty, diseases, wars, and famines: I do not think it's fair for them at all or loving if there is no God and no Heaven, if all their life is hell on earth and then after death, they do not experience a life without pain and sadness.

 

In Jesus' parable about a poor beggar with sores named Lazarus, he shows how important it is to help others, when the rich man didn't help a person in need:

 

Luke 16

Luke 16 NIV - The Parable of the Shrewd Manager - Bible Gateway

"19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

Now, I think Jesus told this parable to show how important it is for people to help others. The parable is not to say oh don't worry about the poor, but rather it's to show that people need to care for each other and help each other, and that yes God cares for the poor and those hurting in their lives, and He will comfort them.

 

But you believe God is omnipotent and omniscient, right? Why does God not stop (because by that definition he knows what is going to happen, when, to whom, and is capable of stopping it) people making life hell for others? Feel free to correct me if I'm using a definition of god that you do not use. If God's love is so great, why does he not help those that need it?

Yes I believe God is omnipotent and omniscient.

 

God allows people to have free will, and that includes Him allowing them to hurt others. I really do wish He didn't allow that. I wish He had made every human more like a robot where we didn't have the ability to choose whether to help or hurt someone, or be apathetic. I wish He had made us to help each other. However, when I was talking to my Dad about that, he said that without the ability to not love, true love cannot exist. Without the ability for humans to hurt each other, true love, which motivates people to help each other, wouldn't exist. What do you think?

 

One of my heroes, Gary Haugen, wrote a book called "Good News About Injustice" which has important points about this question. Many Christians ask that question which you asked and which I underlined. It's an awesome and valid question, and Gary Haugen does a pretty good job in answering it, in my opinion.

 

Corrie ten Boom, who suffered along with her family while helping rescue Jewish people during the Holocaust, does not doubt God's goodness even with all other people suffered, as well as all she suffered. That's quite amazing, in my opinion.

 

As evidenced by the starving children in Ethiopia.

 

 

Why is it not enough to be accountable in this life? Is it loving to wish someone eternal torment? It doesn't fit my definition of loving, at any rate.

I think God loves people differently than people are supposed to love each other. I think God sees people more as living works of art. I think He loves those living works of art that please Him, and has no problem with the idea of destroying those living works of art that don't please Him. I also think He sees death very differently than people do.

 

 

Again, I didn't call Christianity ridiculous. Stop twisting what I said to suit your own ends. Why shouldn't I criticize an idea which would allow for innocent, good people to be tortured for eternity because they didn't believe? Why do you think I'm bigoted because I offer criticism towards a set of ideas? And, what makes you think this set of ideas deserves my respect, by default?

When you wrote you despised Christianity and then called an idea that many Christians ascribe too as being "ridiculous", that's why I assume you think Christianity is ridiculous. Or, do you not think Christianity is ridiculous? If you don't, then I'm sorry for assuming that's why you despise it. As it is, it makes me sad that you despise my belief. I don't despise your idea: Atheism.

 

Yes I think it's bigoted for anyone, whether Christian or Atheist or anyone of any other idea, to not tolerate or respect different beliefs.

 

As for discussions between people of different beliefs, tolerance is helpful:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tolerance?s=t

"a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry."

 

Intolerance isn't helpful:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intolerance?s=t

"unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect contrary opinions or beliefs, persons of different races or backgrounds, etc."

 

I am not saying you need to respect specific ideas/beliefs, but people are the ones who hold beliefs.On this section of the forum, people of different beliefs write about them but it really helps if people aren't disrespectful.

 

For example, I have learned a lot about Buddhism on this forum, but it sure wouldn't help me learn about Buddhism if I was disrespectful to the Buddhists here and mocked their beliefs, hmm? Instead of being intolerant though, being tolerant and asking questions has actually helped me greatly admire Buddhism and Buddhists and learn from them, even though I don't agree with every thing they believe. I respect Buddhism and the Buddhists, and I am so glad they have the freedom to believe what they believe, and I appreciate the knowledge I have gained through learning more about Buddhism and Buddhists. Again, I don't agree with them on everything, but I do not despise Buddhism even though I don't agree with some ideas in Buddhism. (And I learned there's different beliefs in Buddhism, which I didn't know before)

 

There are many ideas and beliefs, I would bet, that you do not hold any respect for whatsoever. White Supremacy for example. But you expect people to offer respect to religious ideas-Islam for example, the Koran explicitly states that a man can hit his wife if she is disobedient. Why should people respect that doctrine simply because people happen to believe in it, and it has religion tacked onto it? It is not that I do not respect people's right to believe in it, I do. I just don't hold the actual belief in any kind of esteem, and I'm not going to lie to save people from offence.

I do not respect the idea of white supremacy no, but when I talk to people who are racist, I don't call their ideas ridiculous but rather talk about how Jesus said to love others, and also about the amazing dream of Martin Luther King Jr, of people no matter their skin color living in peace together!

It is not ideas that need protecting, and need respect, but people, themselves.

I agree with that, but when you talk to people who think differently than you, it really helps to respect the people by not simply dismissing their ideas as ridiculous.

 

I love Christianity because I love Jesus Christ. It makes me sad you despise my belief. My personal belief however does not include the idea that God sends all non-Christians to hell. I don't believe that, but I do believe Jesus' teachings and yes Jesus' teachings include the idea of hell, but I believe that hell that Jesus talked about is more the Judaic definition than the Roman Dante idea of hell. The reason why I believe that is Jesus is Jewish and thus it is important to see what the Tanakh says about hell.

Edited February 16, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[ComingInHot]

bethebutterfly;

Your show of both strength & grace while trying to share how much and why you love God to someone who spits on your Savior & your beliefs is INCREDIBLE!!!

 

To answer resolutely and back your beliefs w/out the malice that was given you is so very telling of your faith.

 

I hope you go away from this "interaction" w/Harmful S w/a smile on your face & even stronger in your faith. I hope the other poster HS can one day at least let go of her hatred or despising of Christianity.

 

Holding onto anger, rage & frustration only inhibits enjoying the short time we have here on earth. And since some believe there is Nothing after this life, what an even bigger waste of time...

 

I'm hoping for peace w/posters who despise AND that the OP finds the answers he is looking for and the kind of Peace that comes from knowing Christ**

[BetheButterfly]

 

 

I despise Christianity for the exact reasons I've outlined. I dismissed one contradiction as ridiculous. This ends my exchange with you in this thread. It is going absolutely nowhere.

 

I'm not being intolerant or bigoted towards you at all. You are free to believe whatever it is you want to believe. I've not once stated or implied otherwise. Likewise, I am free to despise Christianity, Islam etc, and think them ridiculous if that is my belief.

 

Well, I don't despise Atheism, even though I don't agree with the main idea of Atheism, since I believe God exists. My belief stems mainly from my personal experience with God. I also learn from the experiences of other people who have experienced God, including those thousands of years ago: Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Moses and Miriam his sister, King David and Abigail, to name a few.

 

To me, it is interesting how people all around the world for centuries have believed in a Being or beings that are more powerful than humans, who they call "God" or gods. The reason they believe is due to experiences. For those who don't personally have an encounter with God or gods, I understand why they don't believe.

 

I don't despise their lack of belief, nor do I despise the beliefs of people different than mine. Rather, to me it's cool to learn about others' beliefs, including Native American beliefs, Druidism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, New Age, ancient Roman and Greek gods, ancient Nordic gods, and so on. Now, I don't agree with many ideas in beliefs different than mine, and I do despise it when people are hating each other, being mean to each other, hurting each other, persecuting each other, and torturing, killing, raping, enslaving each other... but all those can sadly be done by people no matter their beliefs in God or gods. What's important then is to respect and tolerate and help each other, not hurt each other no matter the differences of beliefs.

[ComingInHot]

I guess I'm just different then some. I am of the persuasion that to criticize what someone believes is probably not the best way to prove my point.

[TheFinalWord]

 

Well, I don't despise Atheism, even though I don't agree with the main idea of Atheism, since I believe God exists. My belief stems mainly from my personal experience with God. I also learn from the experiences of other people who have experienced God, including those thousands of years ago: Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Moses and Miriam his sister, King David and Abigail, to name a few.

 

To me, it is interesting how people all around the world for centuries have believed in a Being or beings that are more powerful than humans, who they call "God" or gods. The reason they believe is due to experiences. For those who don't personally have an encounter with God or gods, I understand why they don't believe.

 

I don't despise their lack of belief, nor do I despise the beliefs of people different than mine. Rather, to me it's cool to learn about others' beliefs, including Native American beliefs, Druidism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, New Age, ancient Roman and Greek gods, ancient Nordic gods, and so on. Now, I don't agree with many ideas in beliefs different than mine, and I do despise it when people are hating each other, being mean to each other, hurting each other, persecuting each other, and torturing, killing, raping, enslaving each other... but all those can sadly be done by people no matter their beliefs in God or gods. What's important then is to respect and tolerate and help each other, not hurt each other no matter the differences of beliefs.

 

You are without a doubt the kindest person on this forum!

 

Kindness (grace given to others) is a spiritual gift that personifies Christ.

 

Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

 

One thing I always think about when I see the hostility is what Christ said, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free". If the truth is that God does not exist and that leads me to becoming the type of person that can internalize justification to bash and mock people and/or their beliefs, I would rather live in ignorance. And I am not just talking about anti-theism here, but also Christians that malign God's word to justify hate (such as Westboro).

 

To me, having hate in my heart is not freeing and a philosophy that encourages such justification is not for me. Life is too short to hate. We often think of freedom in terms of our right to free speech, freedom of religion, etc. (and I thank God for those rights and the men and women that died to give them to us, as Paul said he wished everyone believed like him, but without the chains; Acts 26:29), but there is a freedom found in love that God gives that is the true freedom Christ spoke about; freedom of the heart to love even our enemies. That freedom is the true freedom that abides even when our physical freedoms are taken away

Edited February 16, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[ComingInHot]

OP;

So Sorry the topic was somewhat de-railed**

 

However, from you reading Both sides of faith & judgment , which side has shown the most grace, dignity, respect & kindness?

 

This is an eternal decision for you.

 

I would encourage you take what everyone has written about how they "feel, believe & why" then do your own investigation.

 

You'll find scientic support For Creation and God

You'll find science trying to prove Creation wrong

 

Weigh the knowledge you gain , listen to you soul, then make your decision for You**

 

I'll be praying for you until you come back here letting us know your decision. If you never come back, well, just know someone out there will always be praying for til her lat breath.

[ComingInHot]

thesaurus.com/browse/loathe Difference between l.

... Definition: Despise means 'look down on contemptuously' ... be averse to, be turned off to, bear malice toward, condemn, deplore,

 

So, ya, I kinda Did take you at your word/s.

 

HarmfulS,

If I misunderstood your words and their intention, I apologize and wish you nothing but good things.

 

If you are sincerely curious about why God would ___________________ (insert statement here**). I'd be happy to comply. I'd consider it an honor & privilage.

[ComingInHot]

please hs, I would love to show you substantiated scientic proof for creation but it's impolite to do here.

 

It's alright how you believe, honest!

 

My faith is science based but I spent FIFTEEN years researching, traveling, studying, trying to Disprove Creation and prove something, Anything else. All that did was lead me to conclude what I did.

I do Not know the extent or depth or length of time of your research on the matter and I am open to hear what you have found when you are open to hearing my evidence.

 

That would actually be pretty cool! I always enjoy learning more.

[ComingInHot]

"I'm not particularly curious about "god." I don't believe he exists. Am I not allowed to despise something? The idea of a god sending anyone to hell is deplorable. So, I kind of have a right to despise that part of the doctrine."

 

Ahhhhhhh. Never mind then.

 

Peace!!

[youdunsay]

Base on Buddhist teachings, you will still be rotating in the wheel of reincarnation.

 

In my definition, heaven is when you are not suffering and hell is when you are suffering. When you are not suffering much in this life (born wealthy, easy life etc), probably you have done many good deeds and earned good karma points from your past life. So if you do more good deeds, you will live better in your next life.

 

Hope it helps.

[M30USA]

The primary characteristic of Hell is complete physical and spiritual separation from God for eternity. This being the case, why would an atheist feel wronged or claim God is unjust if they (or any other atheist) winds up going there? Isn't it merely what they wanted, rather than God "slamming the gates" on them?

 

The reason we have incorrect thinking on this subject is because, like all other debates in society, we leave God out as the central factor. We just think of Heaven as "bliss" and Hell as "torment", not realizing WHY they are either bliss or torment.

 

The Bible tells us that, in Heaven, we will serve God all day and sing his praises. Do you really think an atheist would even want to be there? Sometimes I ask MYSELF, as a believer, if even I am ready for this.

Edited February 17, 2013 by M30USA