A question for religious people?

[pie2]

So, does anyone have any biblical references I can look up regarding what exactly constitutes the moment of death? I'd like to know more about the moment of death, the Judgement before God, and how that relates to our final destination. Is there a clear verse that says the moment of death is when our physical bodies die?

 

Or, could the moment we die be something else?

 

I have often heard that once we die, believers will pass into heaven immediately. But where/when does the Judgement happen? Is there anything that could suggest that when we die, we go to heaven...meaning that the Judgement would have to come first, and we still couldn't be considered "dead" until after we go before God?

[ErosOcean]

So we all agree that if there was a God then he would be just and good? And if this God is just and good then he would not have any personal preferences over one man from the other? And that if a good man lives a good life he earns his just reward. And that if a bad man lives a bad life that he earns his just reward. But such dealings is above God for he is impersonal and does not favor one over the other.

 

So then how are we to deal out the punishment for the bad and the reward for the good?

 

Can we say that there must be a just law to exist and that God being just and good would not interfere with this law? For being good he would not place himself above the law? For if he were to interfere and absolve a bad man from punishment for merely praying to him without any good action, would this not make God unjust and not good?

 

But then what should we call this law? May we call it the Law of Karma? And this Law of Karma which we will create will be just and impersonal that it deals out the rewards and punishment to those that earned it by their own actions. For good karma comes to the good man who live his life doing good. And bad karma comes to those who commmit bad actions. Can we not say that this is just and good?

 

And how is our system of karmic debt to be paid off? For if a good karmic debt is to be accrued, then what shall the reward for a good man be? Should his reward be eternal heaven and the bad man eternal hell? But how could we call this a just system in which a man living in such a short time of existence makes a mistake in which would cast him into a prison of hell for eternity? What if we made it possible for the bad man to earn good karma, that we create a law to give this man a chance to earn his just reward. Would that not be just and good?

 

So we could then create a law in which we will call the Law of Reincarnation. With this law we can send man back into the material world to earn good karma. But before that. In the after life, it would be unjust to have him sit in purgatory hell. For life in the material world can be hell. So what if we let him dwell in a sphere of heaven which is not the highest but it is still beautiful. His time here we will let the soul of man review his life, this soul will know that the karmic debt he owes must be paid in order to attain to the highest sphere. As he took a life in his former life, his life will be taken in the next. And so on ad infinitum. Then and only until then after all his bad karma has been paid off and he has earned good karma from doing good can we allow man to be admitted into the highest sphere of heaven seated next to God. It may take many lives for it to happen, but all just rewards come to only those who earn it.

 

And God being impersonal, good and just, would never interfere with the Law of Reincarnation and Karma. Could we then say this is a just system? Could we then say God is good?

 

But wait, what about the good man who wants achieve liberation faster and exit the wheel of reincarnation sooner?

 

Such a long discourse is it not? Unfortunately, I'm not a great writer as Plato. So forgive me if I cut it short. But let us suppose that for the most virtuous and moral man/woman in the material world, we reward them with worldly knowledge and the ability to think not of God or about God, but with God. This knowledge we give them we shall call it wisdom. For the power of wisdom is the gold in which God pays to those who earn it by a virtuous and moral life. Again, to attain wisdom God will not give it to those who pray, affirm or meditate upon it. It must be rightly earned as it was rightly earned by the Prophets and Messiahs of the old.

 

God is good.

 

By the way, reincarnation was not just a Buddhist belief. It was believed by the earlier Christian church until the council decided they wanted to wipe all evidence of paganistic beliefs from their doctrines. The Greek philosophers believed in reincarnation or metempsychosis. Egyptians believed in it, Hindus... It predates way back before philosophy and before Buddha.

[ComingInHot]

Eros;

Really? You'd Want to come back here and do this again & again??

 

I think that reincarnation is another reason I REALLY hope God is Real because the thought of having to come back here & live another life is Not something I would look forward to.

 

But I think I understand the reason people believe in reincarnation or at least I have an idea (could be way off though*). Since dawn of man, people have been trying to find the answer to "why" we are here.

It is depressing & borderline hopeless for some to think there is no real or greater purpose for "us" being here. Ergo, all the Theories.

 

But I get child down my spine thinking about the possibility that I'd have to come back here for another go round...

[youdunsay]

Could we then say this is a just system?

 

I rather say the universe works this way.

 

Egyptians believed in it, Hindus... It predates way back before philosophy and before Buddha.

 

Of course. Buddha was born somewhere in India or Nepal. He have seen sufferings and been through sufferings. He was a human once before.

[TheFinalWord]

So, does anyone have any biblical references I can look up regarding what exactly constitutes the moment of death? I'd like to know more about the moment of death, the Judgement before God, and how that relates to our final destination. Is there a clear verse that says the moment of death is when our physical bodies die?

 

Or, could the moment we die be something else?

 

I have often heard that once we die, believers will pass into heaven immediately. But where/when does the Judgement happen? Is there anything that could suggest that when we die, we go to heaven...meaning that the Judgement would have to come first, and we still couldn't be considered "dead" until after we go before God?

 

Kind of a complex topic theologically I will give a basic summary.

 

It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment. (Heb. 9:27)

To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:6)

 

1) Judgment of believer's sins. There is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8)

 

2) Judgment of believer's works (Bema seat of Christ). You can study doctrine of rewards. This is where believers will be judged, not for their sin, but what they did for Christ. (2 Cor. 5: 6-10; 1 Cor. 3: 10-15). The works of believers will be judged and purged by fire. Works of hay, wood, and stubble will be destroyed, works of gold, silver, and precious stones will be purified. Some believe this will be a time of sorrow, i.e. lost opportunities to witness, non-fulfillment of God's purpose for our lives, etc. which will cause tears, which God will wipe away after God creates new heavens and earth (rev 21:4). Some of this is vague and there is disagreement.

 

3) Judgment of Israel. The time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30; Romans 11:25-26). Jacob's name was changed to Israel, by God. We know that Abraham, Isaac, and Israel are alive now. The Sadducees did not not believe in afterlife or resurrection. They tried to trap Jesus by using the Law to demonstrate the marriage laws would not work if there were a resurrection. Christ showed their error regarding the resurrection by referencing Exodus 3:6 where God said "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"; present tense.

 

4) Judgment of the nations. (Matt 25; 1 Cor. 15:24-25)

 

5) Judgment of the wicked. (Revelation 20: 11-15). The great white throne judgment. Unbelievers will be judged by their works. Those not found in the lamb's book of life will experience the second death (first death is that of the physical body; second death is spiritual death which is eternal separation from God).

 

An interesting snap shot happens in the story Christ told of the rich man and Lazarus (luke 16:19-31). Some say this is a parable. I do not believe it is. But some interesting things to glean. Both go immediately to their destination. Another topic, is the difference between hell and lake of fire. Hell is like jail, a holding cell while the lake of fire like prison, a final destination. Both go to their destinations immediately, though neither have received judgment yet. So there is an immediate assigning and then later judgment. Notice in hell, the rich man does not argue saying he does not deserve to be there, but rather asks to go back and warn his brothers. His request is denied, Abraham says if they will not believe Moses and the prophets they will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead. Lots of implications there Hope this helps in a bit of rush today. God Bless you pie2

Edited February 17, 2013 by TheFinalWord
couple more refs for you :)

[ComingInHot]

Eclypse;

You are questioning heaven & hell and their existence. Therefore, I'm lead to infer that you aren't questioning the existence of God.

 

Am I correct?

[ErosOcean]

I think that reincarnation is another reason I REALLY hope God is Real because the thought of having to come back here & live another life is Not something I would look forward to.

 

I understand.

 

Reincarnation is not something that can be explained with a few lines. It takes a more in depth review of it to further understand it. Doing so would require going to great lengths. But I'll do my best to point the way.

 

Now looking to the evidence of those who remember their past lives and can describe with accuracy their past living conditions; the researchers who have tried to disprove them would find that upon visiting their former homes, the past life accounts were correct. So how am I to reason that it is purely coincidental? Maybe, we can suppose that for every correct account there is an opposite false account of the past life. And true enough there have been false accounts. But we still could not discredit the belief of it just yet.

 

Suppose that if these accounts of the past life came from individuals only in one specific region. We could perhaps reason that it must be the superstitious belief of that region. But every account that has been proven accurate came from individuals of various races and continents. So how could we reason the odds of that happening?

 

Well, we could say that in some form or another these individuals came into contact somehow with someone that may have told them of their life and subconsciously these individuals recreated the story as their own. However, the possibility of that happening on each account is unlikely. And on most accounts the person who remembered their past life were children who had no contact with any such persons from the very community in which they state they were from in the past life. For example, in one account a four year old Hindu girl remembered her past life in a town that was miles away from where she lived, and upon further investigation by the adults they were surprised to find that she could direct them around town and accurately describe the history of it.

 

For further thought on children remembering past lives, here is a clip:

 

 

Reincarnation could help explain some things in life. For example, child prodigies. It is said by the sages of antiquity that our soul collectively remembers our experiences from the past. That what you have gained in your past life is not lost. Plato in his discourse in Meno mentions reincarnation and says that learning is remembering.

 

Now looking at the child prodigy, we see that these geniuses are sometimes born into families which are average in thought. Or the child prodigy who is a genius in the art of music, who comes from a family that has never played an instrument. What more rational way of explaining how a child prodigy came to be then to look at the Law of Reincarnation. For the soul gained it's experience in the past life.

 

Anyway, you can do your own research for yourself if you have any further interest in it. And just like you, I do not want to come back to this world...

 

In closing, I actually have to apologize for I made a lapse in judgement. For I am trying to discourse on a subject on which I myself am not qualified to do so. I have given only fragments of my understanding of what the Philosophers, Sages, and Wise men of the past have taught. In so doing I may have done more harm than good. So I can only point to them and say that you must come to your own reasoning of thought.

 

As a former atheist, I will point this out for the atheist who may be reading this. I myself doubted the religions of the world for they live in contradiction to their teachings. And the bible is full of contradictions if it is to be taken literally. Nor is it in my nature to blindly follow any doctrines. So I will relate an Eastern fable of what I think perfectly describes religion as told by Manly P Hall (Words To The Wise)...

 

"The story goes that there was once a man who tried to understand a tree by counting the leaves. He finally realized that all the leaves grew upon the single trunk, and that if he understood the trunk, or the tree as a whole, he would instantly realize the proper significance of each of the leaves. Religion is like a tree. The sects and creeds are like the branches and leaves of the tree. We discover the nature of the tree not by studying the leaves and branches alone, but by becoming rationally aware of the significance of the whole tree. The moment we become truly religious, there is a place in our appreciation for all cults and all sect, but we do not rush in a frantic effort to join them all. Religion is one, creeds are many, but he who possesses religion is master of all creeds."

 

I used to have a smug view that we were superior than the men of antiquity because of our technological advancement. But I was wrong. For far far greater than the advancement of technology is the superiority of the mind - which men like Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, and all the great philosophers, sages, and prophets of the past had.

 

With that I make my leave.

[ComingInHot]

Eros;

Reincarnation is honestly a theory I have not studied.

My research begins tonight.

Unfortunately, when I decide to gain knowledge on a particular theory, it is years of study from all over the world.

If I'm still around then, I'll check back.

 

**I wish more people would research theories THOROUGHLY then weigh the logic, science and contradictions of each to make an educated conclusion that can be thoughfully discussed & debated in a respectful, kind manner like you Eros and others here.

 

Thank you*

[pie2]

TheFinalWord -

 

Your post was amAZing !! So much great information...I really appreciate it. A lot has been clarified, and I actually have so much more to think about, and lots more questions, lol.

 

I had never heard of the Lake of Fire vs. Hell before. That is so interesting. So there are different "levels" of hell? Anyway, you've helped me more than enough, so I'll look into the bible verses you provided, and keep researching.

 

Thanks TFW :)

 

 

 

 

Eros -

 

Please only respond if you're comfortable . Have you had a personal experience with reincarnation?

Edited February 18, 2013 by pie2

[ErosOcean]

Please only respond if you're comfortable . Have you had a personal experience with reincarnation?

 

As to having seen my past life or of personally knowing someone who has, I do not have that personal experience. But should someone I know tell me that they remembered their past life. I would not take it at face value, it would have to be investigated and proven.

[youdunsay]

Not everyone get to know what they were in their past lives, so the idea of reincarnation may sounds foolish.

 

But looking it from another angle in a semi-atheist way, in my opinion reincarnation makes the most sense above all. Instead of indulging, thinking whether we are going to hell or heaven, why not think of why we are here as humans on earth? Are our past mistakes brought us to this state? What are our purpose to be here? Is it a new round of tests, to be a better person, better to the people we will encounter in our present life? To be a useful person to the society? And be grateful to our parents who nurtured us? To do it once right?

 

As much as I am "enlightened" by the idea of reincarnation, in my humble opinion I think we should do the best we can this life and be good souls and contributors to humankind.

[ComingInHot]

I WISH Eclypse would respond!!

[M30USA]

I WISH Eclypse would respond!!

 

I think Eclypse is hiding behind the moon.

[TheFinalWord]

TheFinalWord -

 

Your post was amAZing !! So much great information...I really appreciate it. A lot has been clarified, and I actually have so much more to think about, and lots more questions, lol.

 

I had never heard of the Lake of Fire vs. Hell before. That is so interesting. So there are different "levels" of hell? Anyway, you've helped me more than enough, so I'll look into the bible verses you provided, and keep researching.

 

Thanks TFW :)

 

Very welcome! In regards to hades/hell, it is regarded theologically as a temporary jail, while lake of fire is the final "prison". Often hades (hell) is considered as a holding place containing two realms: a place of comfort (Abraham's bosom) and a place of torment. Many theologians believe Christ set the captives free, i.e. those in Abraham's bosom were brought to heaven by Christ after his death. Thus Abraham's bosom was a holding place for the righteous until Christ died (Acts 2:27; Heb. 11: 13-16; also some believe when Christ told the believing thief: "today you will be with me in paradise", that also indicates this paradise side to hades). Lake of fire is a place of eternal separation from God. You can see in Revelation 20, death and hades is cast into the lake of fire. So lake of fire supersedes hell. Many theologians believe death claims the material body and hell the spiritual body. Many dispute if lake of fire is an actual place per say, but it represents a realm of destruction (2 Thess. 1: 6-10). Reason being is b/c these are spiritual abodes and often we are given physical "descriptions" of spiritual realms so we can relate to them (Rom. 6:19; 2 Cor. 12:1-4). Death and hell are personified in apocalyptic literature. At that time, what Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:26; the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Christ holds the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). Regarding levels of punishment, many believe so using Romans 2:5, Matt. 11:20-24. BTW we are giving a description of what Christ looks like Rev. 1 Very cool IMHO:

 

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades

On another note, thanks for participating in this forum youdunsay and ErosOcean, and for sharing your opinions with us Welcome!

[BetheButterfly]

You are without a doubt the kindest person on this forum!

 

Thanks, but I don't think so.

 

Kindness (grace given to others) is a spiritual gift that personifies Christ.

Agreed

 

Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

I love these verses... Jesus Christ is so beautiful and is a wonderful motivator for being kind to others!!! I am so grateful for God's kindness and mercy and amazing grace and love towards me! I know I don't deserve it!!!

 

One thing I always think about when I see the hostility is what Christ said, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free". If the truth is that God does not exist and that leads me to becoming the type of person that can internalize justification to bash and mock people and/or their beliefs, I would rather live in ignorance. And I am not just talking about anti-theism here, but also Christians that malign God's word to justify hate (such as Westboro).

Yes it's sad that some "Christians" malign God's word and justify hate, especially since it's so clear in God's Word to love people: neighbors and oneself (Matthew 22:39), each other (John 15:12) , and enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37). That sums up everyone, no matter the differences of ethnicity, belief, social status, sexual lifestyle, nationality, and gender!

To me, having hate in my heart is not freeing and a philosophy that encourages such justification is not for me. Life is too short to hate. We often think of freedom in terms of our right to free speech, freedom of religion, etc. (and I thank God for those rights and the men and women that died to give them to us, as Paul said he wished everyone believed like him, but without the chains; Acts 26:29), but there is a freedom found in love that God gives that is the true freedom Christ spoke about; freedom of the heart to love even our enemies. That freedom is the true freedom that abides even when our physical freedoms are taken away

100% agree. Can I put the above on my facebook with the reference - TheFinalWord? You stated the above so eloquently and is a great lesson for me that I want to remember.

[BetheButterfly]

 

Another reason they believed was because of ignorance. For centuries, people have made up gods, and filled in their holes of knowledge with gods. Ancient Greeks used to believe that Zeus made lightening bolts, ancient Egyptians thought Ra rode the sun in a chariot across the sky. It's human nature to find an explanation for things they can't explain at that moment in time, but as our knowledge base grows, the things we once believed were down to supernatural causes can be explained with very naturalistic explanations.

 

Since I wasn't around in those times, I don't know why they (and people around the world) believed in certain gods. However, I do not believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, and other ancestors of the Jewish people were liars. I do truly believe they experienced God. Now, it would be awesome if we could go back in time with a video camera and tape the lives of these people to see if they truly experienced God or not. However, people have the choice to believe whether what they experienced was true or not.

You believe in god, I get that. You have to get the fact that I do not like Christianity, and nor will I pussy foot around that to spare your feelings.

I completely get the fact that you don't like Christianity. Do you not care about the feelings of people who believe differently than you?

 

I don't intend on offending you, but if it happens, it happens. If you don't want your beliefs offended, keeping away from discussion about them, might be a smart move.

This part of the forum is for those who are interested in spirituality and religious beliefs. Since I am interested in both spirituality and religious beliefs, this is a great place for me to discuss with other people about what is important to us.

This is definitely my last post to you because we've already derailed this thread with this utterly pointless discussion

Blessings and I hope you find true Love, peace, and joy. I have, through Christ Jesus who loves me and who I love. Jesus Christ loves you too (and showed it for dying for all of us) even if you don't care about him.

[BetheButterfly]

It's hard to care about someone I don't believe existed!

 

Did you used to believe that Jesus existed?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/345324-testimony

 

When you believed that Jesus was your Savior, would you have appreciated people mocking your belief and saying they despise Christianity while they were discussing their disagreements concerning Jesus Christ and calling ideas in Christian beliefs to be ridiculous?

 

As a Christian, it does bother me when people say they despise Christianity. I personally do not despise Atheism, nor do I despise Islam. Now, I do believe that Muhammad is a false prophet and have written about that before: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/356651-islamic-faith but I don't despise Islam or call ideas of their belief "ridiculous" even though I don't agree with many of the ideas. There are many Muslims who I very much respect and know are awesome people, including Malala and her Dad who are heroes:love:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/353966-malala-girl-being-prayed-people-many-different-beliefs

 

 

Do I care about hurting the feelings of others when I post? Yes and no. I have reread my initial post, and I don't see anything particularly inflammatory about it. Aside from two words, there was nothing in it that could be deemed derogatory. If a person cannot express honestly how he or she feels without getting called a bigot, or labelled intolerant, how is honest discourse ever meant to take place? If the word ridiculous being applied to a part of the doctrine, that you, yourself have admitted to not believing in (you don't believe non-believers will go to hell) is so offensive, I'd hasten to take a stab that no one should say anything negative at all about Christianity. You don't believe in the part I was criticizing, so I don't understand why you felt hurt on behalf of those that do believe that.

You are right that I don't believe all people who are not Christians go to hell. However, when discussing with other people who believe differently than one, there is no need to use terms such as "ridiculous", and so on anymore than when one is discussing fashion, there is no need to use adjectives such "ugly" or "stupid."

 

Do you think I don't have the right to be hurt when people legitimately wish/hope that god sends me to hell for simply not believing, simply because that's their religious belief?

You most definitely do have the right to be hurt when people wish that God sends you to hell. I think what they wish is very wrong. Even though you don't believe in God, I don't wish you hell. I wish you joy and happiness both now and after death. I would get just as upset if someone told you that you were being ridiculous and that they despised you (or Atheism) for not believing in God. It is your right to not believe in God and I 100% respect that right. It is also your right to explain why you don't believe in God, and I perfectly understand why.

 

Even though I don't believe in the idea of hell, or any after-life, the fact that many people do, and would happily see people condemned to an eternity of torture because they didn't believe as they did is immoral to me. JMHO.

Agreed. To me too.

 

If people can't honestly criticize ideas, then there's no hope for any of us. Religion is an idea, and is free to be criticized as with any other idea.

One can criticise without using words like "ridiculous" or "stupid" or "ugly" and so on.

 

What makes you think that the "experiences" people claimed to have when worshiping another god was any less real, than the experiences you and others claim to have worshiping Yahweh?

I don't think that their experiences are any less real. I don't know very much about many of the experiences of nonAbrahamic faiths. I do love many aspects of Native American beliefs and I have studied a bit about them... although there are some ideas in their beliefs that I disagree with, other ideas of their beliefs I very much love.) http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/358530-native-american-beliefs

 

Now, I don't think that all Native Americans who did not become Christians are going to hell at all. I also don't think all Hindus are going to hell or all Buddhists or all Atheists or all people of any belief. While I do believe in the existence of hell, I think hell is mostly a punishment/consequence for hurting people. I think this due to Judaic beliefs concerning hell, as well as Jesus' parables/teachings about hell accounted in the Gospel accounts. (I also don't think all people who call themselves Christians have a direct "pass/ticket" to Heaven. Sadly, many people who call themselves Christians have hurt others.)

 

 

What makes you think they were lying, or being misled, but not Moses/Abraham/Isaac?

For nonAbrahamic faiths, I don't know enough about them to speculate if the people who believe in them are lying or being misled. I do however greatly enjoy studying Abrahamic faiths and I do believe that Abraham, Jacob (Israel), King David, and all those accounted in the Tanakh of having a personal relationship with God did so. I also believe in the testimonies about Jesus accounted in the Bible.

 

Just honest questions, not meant to offend or anything.

Thanks! Those are awesome and thought-provoking questions, and again, I don't despise Atheism at all and I understand why many people are Atheists. If, I didn't have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, as well as believe the testimonies about God accounted in the Bible, then I would be an Atheist too! (or maybe I'd go into Native American beliefs or Buddhism, or be an Atheist Buddhist, or a Wiccan). I don't know. Spirituality is very important to me though.

 

Anyways, I think it's great when people can talk/write about the differences in beliefs and why they do/don't believe something, and ask questions too.

 

So, I would ask why you decided to no longer believe in God, but I think you made many valid points as to why in this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/355277-denouncing-faith and I respect your decision. It very much makes me sad that some Christians condemn you and tell you you'll go to hell. Jesus said to love, to do good to, to bless, and to pray for even our enemies.Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway

 

Atheists are not our enemies (though some like to attack Christian beliefs and thus may possibly be considered "enemies" in that respect), so instead of condemning a person to hell, praying for and loving and blessing and doing good is important for a Christian to do.

 

Now, as I have been meditating on Jesus' teachings accounted in Matthew 5 and Luke 6, I do think I was being very sensitive in getting upset at your words/attack on Christianity. Instead of getting sensitive and protesting, I should have simply done Luke 6:27-37. So I am sorry about getting so sensitive and protesting about what you wrote that offended me because I love Jesus Christ and it makes me sad when people attack or despise Christianity.

 

I am not perfect and still have a lot of room to grow! Please forgive me and I will try to simply ignore words that offend me and pray for those who say/write them. Peace

Edited February 25, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

I'm sorry that I offended you. I didn't mean to. I think you're right, I probably should choose my words a bit better in future. It was just the only words I could think of at the time to accurately sum up what I meant.

 

I'm sorry for getting offended. Thanks for the apology though you didn't have to apologize. Sure I understand that many people who aren't Christian think that Christianity is (insert here) but it is hard for some Christians not to take offense when we are told that... but I need to work on not getting offended so easily, so thanks for the lesson!

 

We can agree to disagree!!!

 

Anyways, there's an amazing and interesting Atheist who I have been watching her videos. She reminds me of you a little bit. I would like to someday answer a question of hers (not to convince her to believe what I believe, but rather to explain why I believe what I believe). There are some things she says that seems to be mocking and insulting people who believe in God, as well as a specific video that I believe mocks Jesus Christ, which really saddens me, but you know what offends me more? The

people who call themselves Christians who bully her online and call her names, insulting her, and condemn her to hell. That makes me really mad and sad.

 

Anyways, here's a video of hers that I absolutely love due to the irony and the comedy in it!!! She is incredibly intelligent and even though I don't agree with her in some things, I greatly respect her and her point of view!

 

 

The reason I personally hold on my relationship with God through Jesus Christ is NOT because of the idea of hell but rather because I love my Heavenly Father and I love Jesus. My beliefs are not just a religion, but rather a spiritual relationship. Even though I can't see God with my physical senses (taste, touch, hearing, sight, smell), I know He loves me. My experiences with God are felt through my spirit. The testimonies of others who have experienced Him too are also a (though not the main) reason why I believe.

Edited February 25, 2013 by BetheButterfly