Son is cheating

[eleanorrigby]

He's not obligated to limit himself to only the crying, rather stalkerish, clingy, and somewhat creepy 18 year old gf.

 

Right?

 

Does everyone realize that single people are allowed to date as many different other people as they wish to at the same time?

 

Again, I never said he's obligated, but don't you think he ought to break up with her if he doesn't want to be exclusive? Or at the very least say he wants to date other people. I know from her that he doesn't want her dating others.

 

Maybe crying gf's clingy creeperishness is driving him away to some extent.

 

That's very possible, but again, he should break up with her if she is annoying, creepy, and stalking him. He's telling this girl that he's not going to cheat on her anymore and that he loves her! He's denying that he's cheating on her now, when he still is!

Are the son and the stalkerish gf betrothed or something? ("Permanent"???)

 

Right, permanent was a poor choice of words, and I'm not saying they are getting married, but this girl is being told that she is his only girlfriend when she's not.

Frankly I'm not seeing why Eleanor is encouraging this young woman to continue her stalking behavior. All you owe her is honesty, not judgment of your son because due to being cheated on you identify with her.

I'm not encouraging her to stalk him, I'm encouraging her to break up with him if he keeps treating her like this. And why wouldn't my son deserve judgement for this? He's acting like a creep!

 

Just tell her

 

"Look honey you need to grow up. My son is not ready to settle down with only one girl yet. That should be obvious to you by this point, you know he is seeing other woman/women (who knows how many really?) It's a free country and he is allowed to go out with as many girls as he wants. If he lied to you I won't defend that but I have no knowledge of what actually went on between the two of you nor is it really any of my business. Of course you are free to go out with as many other men as you choose or not, suit yourself. Or just dump my son if you don't like him seeing other women. It's entirely up to you. What is completely intolerable is you constantly calling me about it. Enough is enough. My son is a grown man, he doesn't live here, and I don't tell him who he should or shouldn't date nor on what terms. That's up to him and whoever he dates to figure out between themselves."

 

Actually I did say some of the things you mentioned, but I tried to be as nice as possible because she's really hurting. She's 18 and I get the feeling this is her first real boyfriend and she's in over her head with all this cheating and lying. She says she keeps thinking he will stop hurting her, that she found out that he cheated on her and she forgave him. She did something a lot of us BS's do, forgive too quickly because she didn't want to lose the relationship, and she thought he would stop the behavior. He lies to her and tells her that OG is just his friend and they hang out on his off days when she's at school, or late at night when it's too late for her to come out. smh

[Jabba]

He called her his girlfriend.

 

So? How does that imply that he ever made anything approaching an exclusive commitment to her?

 

 

 

 

 

He's still calling her his girlfriend.

 

OK so she's still his girlfriend. What gives you the right to impose exclusivity on that relationship on behalf of your son? Nothing gives you that right.

 

 

 

 

He brings her to the house to hang out and watch movies and they would be snuggled up on the sofa making out half the time.

 

That doesn't remotely suggest that he ever made a commitment of exclusivity to her.

 

 

 

 

I don't know what other confirmation I could get that they were a couple. And she's the only girl he has been bringing around the house.

 

You've answered the question by not answering it. NO ONE--not your son, not his 18 yr old gf, not anyone--has EVER told you that his relationship with her was meant to be exclusive and precludes him from seeing/dating/snuggling with/having sex with anyone else.

 

If that's true, then you are being grossly unfair to your son. IT'S NOT UP TO YOU as his parent to determine the boundaries of HIS relationships.

 

 

 

He's arrogant for sure, I can never deny that. He knows how to talk people into corners and enjoys it, it's a sport for him.

 

Yup a-holes hold a strange attraction for many women, this is more proof of what we all know already, what else is new?

 

 

 

 

This 18 year old is in for it... another reason why I feel sorry for her, he needs a strong girlfriend who can stand up to him. I don't know if she will be able to do it.

 

Wow. You are demonstrating all kinds of cognitive bias here and unhealthy thinking.

 

There is nothing for you to feel sorry about for her. She knows the score. Continuing to pity her and provide and acting like her handkerchief to cry into is just enabling her dysfunctional, clingy, stalkerish, immature behavior. And it's ridiculously dysfunctional for YOU to think you have the right to determine what kind of girl he "needs" strong or otherwise. Do you actually think it's your place to try to "mold" her into the kind of girl you think your son "needs"?

 

YOU'VE SAID YOU PEACE. Now back away and stay out of it. They're not exclusive, no one ever told you they were exclusive, nothing you've witnessed them doing implies exclusivity. And the 18 year old is engaged in clearly stalkerish behavior, encouraged by....you. So just stop now.

What you're doing is very unhealthy and it's counterproductive to whatever you think you're trying to accomplish as well.

 

If you are going to say anything more to the 18 yr gf then tell her "Look as far as I know the two of you aren't exclusive and he's allowed to date other women and it's not my job to be your advocate for him. But then of course if you want to you can dump him or date other men as well. It's up to you. Leave me out of it and stop calling my house for god sake, he doesn't even live here and I'm not his babysitter."

 

 

This is not to say you should endorse him if he's lying or cheating. You should say to him "Look if you are lying or cheating to either of these girls you know that doesn't play with me. You know that I would never tolerate cheating after what your father did to me. Also if you are going to act like an a hole always remember karma can be a b*tch.

 

And leave me out of your personal drama please, don't ever give your gfs my phone number again unless you are dying or something. If these women keep calling me up complaining about you I am going to take it out of YOUR hide one way or another so make sure it doesn't happen again."

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've never said he's obligated to stay with this girl.

 

Nor she with him. Also neither of them is obligated to be exclusively committed to each other. For pete's sake--for all you know this may have all started because your son caught her making out with some other dude at a party or something! As Jim Cramer might say "YOU KNOW NOTHING." Not really. You don't know what the heck is really going on. At least admit that, OK? You have very incomplete information at best. I certainly never told my parents what was really going on in my social life at that age, I would be mortified. Sure they may have seen part of it but all of it? Please.

 

 

 

 

I've said a few times to him that if he doesn't like her anymore, why is he still dating her?

 

Do you not understand that is none of your darn business????

 

 

 

 

He tells me he does love her.

 

That's fine but it's his business why he does or doesn't date one or the other or both or neither whether that's for love, sex, or for any of a variety of reasons.

 

You need to cut that umbilical cord because all you're doing is emotionally strangling these kids because of your own issues--not just your son, but the 18 yr old kid too.

 

Now that it's clear that they are not and never were exclusive and you have no reason to try to impose that status on them, and taking into account your son sounds like the typical know it all 21 year old, you are almost assuredly 100% in the wrong here.

[2long]

Y

As for your son, he is going to make his own mistakes and learn from the consequences.

 

What if one of these consequences of his mistakes is getting one of these girls pregnant or swapping around a nasty STD? If he were my son, he wouldn't get the privilege of making the mistake in the first place if I knew anything about it. Eleanor does.

 

You can not control him. You can express concern, and even strong disapproval, but lecturing and treating him like a child will only drive him away.

 

He is a child (I've got ailments older than 21!) and he's most certainly acting like one. If he feels like he's been driven away (HIS choice), then that's just going 2 have 2 be one of the consequences of his s2pid mistake.

 

That is not the way to influence his behavior. The best way to influence his behavior is to be a good role model, including the very ways you communicate with him on this subject.

 

At his age, his perception of his mother's role modeling is what he wants it 2 be - anything he can rationalize 2 support continuing what he's doing.

 

Your boundaries are off all over the place. You are too involved.....far too involved. It isn't normal for a mother to be so involved in a grown son's love affairs. How much of this is about him living his life, and how much is about you reliving yours? Work on your boundaries, and stop trying to "fix" people other than yourself.

 

He's not old enough, and the GF certainly isn't, that the mother won't suffer plenty of consequences if someone gets pregnant from his selfish behavior. I would want 2 nip that in the bud sooner than quicker, if he were my son.

 

-ol' 2long

[2long]

ETA: the reason I called OG to ask her to have my son call me is because he got behind on his cell phone bill and I can't reach him right now. He has no landline.

 

Do you pay for his cell phone? Cut it off.

 

-ol' 2long

[2long]

I've been right where you are, and knowing what I know now, my advice is to do absolutely nothing.

 

My son cheated on his wife who happened to be pregnant with their 2nd child. My X-DIL called me crying and I, did what I thought was right at the time and got involved. My son was a huge ass to my DIL and I told him as much, tried to help them (from afar, as I live in another state) but they ended up divorcing. I haven't talked to my son in over a year.

 

I think he'll come around one day, and hopefully realize that I only wanted the best for all of them. But, bottom line for me, I will never get involved in my children's romantic relationships again. Ever.

 

And do you see your grandchildren?

 

See? I don't see how you could NOT get involved when a loved one is doing something so terrible. He hates that you pissed in his cheerios, but so what?? Keeping your mouth shut is enabling him. He'll end up never learning anything (and you'll likely never see your grandchildren again).

 

-ol' 2long

[Jabba]

Do you pay for his cell phone? Cut it off.

 

-ol' 2long

 

It took a while to figure out but it's obvious mom is WAY too entangled with her son, the first gf, and the so called "OG" (original gangsta?) girlfriend.

 

"My son didn't pay his cell phone, therefore I called OG to tell her to call me if she wants to contact my son"---yet claiming she wants nothing to do with any of this? She's enabling it.

[xxoo]

If he were my son, he wouldn't get the privilege of making the mistake in the first place if I knew anything about it. Eleanor does.

 

How would you stop it? By trying to force him to stop?

 

How??

 

That approach only pushes people away--from children to spouses. The way to influence a grown person is to foster a relationship, communication, and mutual respect.

[2long]

Helicopter parents prevent kids from growing up. They do not assist in it.

 

The ONLY thing that will change his behavior is when a girl HE loves smashes HIS heart to pieces and cheats on him. Eating what he is dishing out is the only way he will understand.

 

Or:

 

Someone winds up pregnant and moves back with her parents, who help her raise the kid and never get 2 experience "empty nesting".

 

Or:

 

Someone gets an STD

 

Or:

 

Someone commits suicide.

 

The only thing he'll learn by being allowed 2 get away with this is that it's okay with people who know what he's doing, so he can keep doing it. And the only thing he'll learn by being cheated on himself is that relationships are all about getting your rocks off and getting back at someone for not letting you have what you think you want.

 

-ol' 2long

[2long]

And is this man incapable of making his own decisions?

 

Quite apparently.

 

Let the man LIVE HIS LIFE.

 

He'll do that in any case. I wouldn't let him use people if I were his parent, though.

 

-ol' 2long

[eleanorrigby]

There is nothing for you to feel sorry about for her. She knows the score. Continuing to pity her and provide and acting like her handkerchief to cry into is just enabling her dysfunctional, clingy, stalkerish, immature behavior. And it's ridiculously dysfunctional for YOU to think you have the right to determine what kind of girl he "needs" strong or otherwise. Do you actually think it's your place to try to "mold" her into the kind of girl you think your son "needs"?

 

I'm not deciding who he should date, just giving my opinion about the kind of girl that I think based on knowing him his entire life would be a good match for him. This is nothing I've said to him, just an opinion I'm sharing on this board for info. I've never said I wanted to mold or change this girl.

 

And I don't agree with you that they were not exclusive. From what they both have said, they was supposed to be an exclusive relationship. Obviously it's not, but he's not telling her that. He's telling her the opposite.

 

Nor she with him. Also neither of them is obligated to be exclusively committed to each other. For pete's sake--for all you know this may have all started because your son caught her making out with some other dude at a party or something! As Jim Cramer might say "YOU KNOW NOTHING." Not really. You don't know what the heck is really going on. At least admit that, OK? You have very incomplete information at best. I certainly never told my parents what was really going on in my social life at that age, I would be mortified. Sure they may have seen part of it but all of it? Please.

 

I only know what they tell me and what I see and both of those things said this was supposed to be an exclusive relationship. He's never mentioned her cheating on him to me. The only cheating I've heard of so far is his..

 

Do you not understand that is none of your darn business????

It sure isn't but when I've got him over here talking to me about her, he's trying to make it my business and I gave him my opinion. What's wrong with that?

Now that it's clear that they are not and never were exclusive and you have no reason to try to impose that status on them, and taking into account your son sounds like the typical know it all 21 year old, you are almost assuredly 100% in the wrong here.

 

I'm sure I am doing some things wrong here, that's why I'm posting, but you still have not convinced me that I'm wrong that they were in an exclusive relationship.

[eleanorrigby]

Do you pay for his cell phone? Cut it off.

 

-ol' 2long

 

No, it's his account, he got an extra cell phone for his girlfriend and I suggested that she give it back to him.

[Keenly]

Quite apparently.

 

 

 

He'll do that in any case. I wouldn't let him use people if I were his parent, though.

 

-ol' 2long

 

The fact that you use the word " let " when talking about a grown man explains it all.

 

Some people are incapable.of.recognizing their own desire to control the people they care abouts behavior.

 

He is 21. You have already given him the tools the experience life. Now you have to let him have his own experiences.... otherwise you are living his life for him. He needs to suffer his own consequences... not those expressed by his.mother.

 

 

This behavior WILL DRIVE HIM AWAY. There is no questioning that.

[eleanorrigby]

It took a while to figure out but it's obvious mom is WAY too entangled with her son, the first gf, and the so called "OG" (original gangsta?) girlfriend.

 

"My son didn't pay his cell phone, therefore I called OG to tell her to call me if she wants to contact my son"---yet claiming she wants nothing to do with any of this? She's enabling it.

 

OG= "other girlfriend".. I didn't want to call her OW.

 

I called OG to pass on the message to my son to call me, he has no landline and I want to talk to him about this. I would never have called this girl if I didn't think it was important and if I did not feel this sense of urgency to speak with him about this mess.

I want to talk to him specifically to let him know that I'm not going to be a party to his bullish*t and that he's not welcome here until he fixes his ****.

 

I'm still not sure if this is the right move, but I don't feel wrong for trying to get a message to him. He's called here from that number several times, it's on my caller id, so I utilized it.

[2long]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art_Critic View Post

Having a talk with him doesn't mean he can't live his own life... People seek and need guidance all the way up to their death at an old age...

 

And where is he seeking out this guidance?

He isn't.

 

Right, he isn't seeking it. But he needs it.

 

-ol' 2long

[eleanorrigby]

The fact that you use the word " let " when talking about a grown man explains it all.

 

Some people are incapable.of.recognizing their own desire to control the people they care abouts behavior.

 

He is 21. You have already given him the tools the experience life. Now you have to let him have his own experiences.... otherwise you are living his life for him. He needs to suffer his own consequences... not those expressed by his.mother.

 

 

This behavior WILL DRIVE HIM AWAY. There is no questioning that.

 

I don't think I'm giving him a consequence, I'm just planning to keep him at a distance until he handles his business. He needs some consequences, but this is not a situation where I can give it and I know that.

 

I'm looking at it as treating him the way I would treat a loved one that was an alcoholic or addict.

[Jabba]

OG= "other girlfriend".. I didn't want to call her OW.

 

I called OG to pass on the message to my son to call me, he has no landline and I want to talk to him about this. I would never have called this girl if I didn't think it was important and if I did not feel this sense of urgency to speak with him about this mess.

I want to talk to him specifically to let him know that I'm not going to be a party to his bullish*t and that he's not welcome here until he fixes his ****.

 

I'm still not sure if this is the right move, but I don't feel wrong for trying to get a message to him. He's called here from that number several times, it's on my caller id, so I utilized it.

 

 

How do you communicate your desire to "not going to be a party to his bullstuff" when by initiating this kind of communication you directly make yourself a part of it?

 

That's a rhetorical question, it's obvious you are not seeing your own behavior and motivations in this very clearly.

[eleanorrigby]

Jabba is IS telling this girl they are exclusive!!! He's lying to her!

[eleanorrigby]

And the honest fact of the matter is that if your son is a remorseless cheater, it's because that's how your husband and you raised him to be. You both role modeled it. Your husband role model "male cheater" and you role modeled "woman who stayed with a cheater." You contributed to his expectation that he could get away with it (if he is "getting away" with anything, that part is not really too clear).

 

I did acknowledge in the thread that I'm afraid our family history has contributed to how he's behaving.

[2long]

How would you stop it? By trying to force him to stop?

 

How??

 

That approach only pushes people away--from children to spouses. The way to influence a grown person is to foster a relationship, communication, and mutual respect.

 

Nothing blows the s**t out of bad behavior than the simple truth. If the GF decides 2 break up with her son, the choice 2 not cheat on her will be made for him because she won't be the betrayed GF anymore. I hope she can get 2 that point.

 

I agree that you can't force someone 2 stop behaving badly - they have 2 make that choice for themselves.

 

When I was Eleanor's son's age, I didn't like being told "respect your elders" because I couldn't accept that my elders had something I didn't, no matter how smart I thought I was (or was, for that matter). They had wisdom. I still believe that respect must be earned, though. Young or old. A son cheating on his girlfriend wouldn't warrant my respect, until he made the choice not 2 treat people like that anymore. Then I would respect him.

 

-ol' 2long

[2long]

The fact that you use the word " let " when talking about a grown man explains it all.

 

lik, is that you?

 

Some people are incapable.of.recognizing their own desire to control the people they care abouts behavior.

 

LOL.

 

He is 21. You have already given him the tools the experience life. Now you have to let him have his own experiences.... otherwise you are living his life for him. He needs to suffer his own consequences... not those expressed by his.mother.

 

That last doesn't make any sense. The rest of it does, though. And it's fine up 2 the point where he's using other people and bringing that home and making it his mothers' business. He's got no business doing this and expecting her 2 keep quiet about it if she doesn't agree with it.

 

This behavior WILL DRIVE HIM AWAY. There is no questioning that.

 

I think there could be a good deal of questioning that.

 

-ol' 2long

[eleanorrigby]

That's up to her not you. You are trying to make decisions for everyone involved here. That's just not healthy. You are trying to tell your son what he did wrong and your trying to tell this gf what she did wrong. She forgave too easily. How is that any of your business, at all? I'm afraid it's not and you are simply reliving emotionally your husband's cheating on you and the aftermath through these kids. Your son is actually doing the same thing but why not since you are role modeling it. Basically your son is cheating on you "by proxy" and that's what your really fighting about. And the son is obviously the proxy for your husband.

 

I'm not making decisions for people, I'm giving my opinion about the situation, just like you are giving me yours.

Yes I am reliving some things, but I'm making an effort to not be too emotional about it and I'm here asking for opinions and advice and I'm willing to hear anyone out and roll their ideas around in my head.

 

You are acting as if I ran off this morning half cocked and lost my sh*t on everyone. I just talked to the girl twice today because she's upset and crying. I have not spoken to my son at all yet, so we are not fighting about this.

[2long]

No, it's his account, he got an extra cell phone for his girlfriend and I suggested that she give it back to him.

 

My apologies, then. I misunders2d.

 

-ol' 2long

[2long]

Ahhh. A buttinsky.

 

You know what's best for everyone else right ?

 

Of course not. You were responding 2 the previous post you quoted by saying that he wasn't seeking guidance. I was responding 2 the quote that said "or need". You missed that part.

 

-ol' 2long

[Jabba]

Jabba is IS telling this girl they are exclusive!!! He's lying to her!

 

But she knows he is a cheater and a liar (assuming this to be the truth, I don't know one way or the other), she's told you that, she also told you she's forgiven him.

 

At this point you've made your feelings known to your son and you've provided more than enough sympathy for the girl and any further interference by you in their relationship is inappropriate. You simply don't have the emotional distance and objectivity to in effect be counseling either your son or the gf about what they should and shouldn't do in their relationship.

 

If he is cheating on his gf he is cheating on HER, not on YOU, and SHE IS WELL AWARE OF IT.

 

It is inappropriate for her to be trying to manipulate you--and that is clearly what these crying phone calls are, manipulation, even though you don't have enough distance to recognize it--to get influence over your son.

 

She is obviously free to continue seeing or not seeing your son on whatever terms they both can agree on. If he is continuing to cheat on and lie to her, then you are interfering with her ability to be emotionally independent and learn to handle these kinds of things, i.e. relationship problems, for herself. All you can tell her is "Look honey you have to decide for yourself whether you wish to stay involved with a man you think is lying to you and cheating on you. I can't live your life for you. That's between you and him and it's inappropriate for me to get involved in your relationship."

 

If the issue is that you have a liar/cheater for a son then that's a problem that goes far beyond whatever trivial nonsense is going on with this current gf drama. That goes to his basic character and you would have to decide what to do about that even if he wasn't dating anyone at all. Nagging your son isn't going to accomplish anything, I can tell you that right now, though.

[eleanorrigby]

Well if you and your husband raised a lying cheating sociopath at age 21 it's a bit late to suddenly realize what he is and to expect to be able to fix it without some pretty intensive individual and family therapy which you obviously can't make him participate in.

 

I also question whether or not you had indications your son was a lying cheat prior to now since kids don't grow up with honesty and integrity and then suddenly turn into lying cheating a holes at the age of 21.

 

Most likely you and your husband just ignored/enabled bad behavior by your son for his entire life and only now you choose to complain about it.

 

Well it's kind of late in the game don't you think?

 

In any case what you're doing is only making things worse.

 

I doubt he is a sociopath, but I do see that he will lie if it suits his purpose.

And again, I'm not trying to "fix" him, I'm intending to tell him to leave me alone until HE fixes things.

 

I believe you may say to me that it's not up to me to decide what needs fixing in his relationship. Fair enough, but I still have my opinion on his behavior, it's disrespectful and just plain mean.

 

Oh and trust this is not the first time I've decided to complain about my sons behavior. Maybe you are thinking I put him on a pedestal? I don't know that I do it anymore then any other mom, he's handsome and smart and loving, but he also can be a colossal jerk when he wants to be, and I've never hesitated to let him know how I'm feeling about him.