Is he even human? Letter #4

[Tenacity]

Of course real people with real actions of choice. These are the natural consequences of those actions. She was a real person when she stabbed his wife in the back and she's a real person only thinking of herself still. It's too selfish.

 

No one disputes that real people (OW) make mistakes.

 

You come off as having zero empathy for OW, that was my point. Whereas most OW on here have empathy for BS and are sorry for causing the pain. Yet you seem to think OW deserve to be hurt, with no compassion at all for humans who are able to comprehend - and state clearly - that they have made mistakes and are sorry. It doesn't come off well, MFH. Sorry, but it doesn't, and I am not the only one who thinks so.

[promises]

 

I hope the OP builds boundaries, works on her sense of honesty, morality, humility, empathy, compassion and finally: realizes that cheating is NEVER necessary and should NEVER be settled for.

 

I think that we ALL can work on these attributes throughout life.

[spice4life]

Where are we to get that message from? You never say this poor woman how could he do that to her? You never say how could I have been a party and I'm so ashamed I helped him cheat on her when she was so sick. You never say that you feel bad for your role. I don't see where you are actually thinking of her. If you are great. I dot see it on your words.

 

MFH70, there is a process involved for one to get to that point. And everyone gets in their own time frame based on factors involved with themselves and the person they were involved with. Just because it doesn't happen on your time frame doesn't mean they won't get there or that they are a bad person. Obviously you have never had the pleasure of being suckd into a toxic person's web otherwise you would understand promises situation. She is just now starting to see who she was involved with and that realizaton alone is quite shocking and is a lot to deal with all on it's own. She is navigating through this muck at her own pace and you really have no right to judge her. Everyone learns lessons in life and there is a process involved that is "unique" to that person. Once you nderstand that then you will see that the support people are providing is helping that person through that process so they can finally see the reality of the situation.

 

Anyway, I know that what I've said will fall on deaf ears with you, but I had to say it non-the-less.

[coffeebean201]

The news isn't really different. He's still with her. She's sick. And he wants lots of sympathy.

 

What he doesn't realize is what this sympathy is costing you emotionally.

 

No matter what people go through in their life, they should be a good friend in return. So what has he offered you recently as a valued friend?

 

Can you put him on a one-month haitus? I know you love him, but he seems to be taking more than he is giving at this point.

[Tenacity]

MFH70, there is a process involved for one to get to that point. And everyone gets in their own time frame based on factors involved with themselves and the person they were involved with. Just because it doesn't happen on your time frame doesn't mean they won't get there or that they are a bad person. Obviously you have never had the pleasure of being suckd into a toxic person's web otherwise you would understand promises situation. She is just now starting to see who she was involved with and that realizaton alone is quite shocking and is a lot to deal with all on it's own. She is navigating through this muck at her own pace and you really have no right to judge her. Everyone learns lessons in life and there is a process involved that is "unique" to that person. Once you nderstand that then you will see that the support people are providing is helping that person through that process so they can finally see the reality of the situation.

 

Anyway, I know that what I've said will fall on deaf ears with you, but I had to say it non-the-less.

 

Excellent post.

[Tenacity]

I frankly get what MH means, i see that a lot too. Take for a current example the "sh*t has hit the pan" thread and the attitude of the OP there: dozens of posts in which she cries for herself and says "f off" to the BW, her spouse, the entire town, any poster who criticizes, etc.

 

It's hard to give empathy for a person who displays none. Not just because of personal experience as a BS, but because its NOT supportive of someone to cheerlead behavior that will hurt them in the long run! It does NOT help someone to grow by enabling their bad behavior and to scream any criticism an insult to the OW/OM.

 

I like a good deal of MH's post. Yep, some of them are pretty harsh, but sugar coating the severity of the pain cheating causes isn't going to make the situation better. I wish I would have seen that kind of straight forward talk earlier, I would have left my marriage much sooner...

 

No one is "sugar coating" or "enabling" anything.

 

Read spice4life's post. She explains it perfectly.

[spice4life]

Excellent post.

 

Thanks!

[promises]

The news isn't really different. He's still with her. She's sick. And he wants lots of sympathy.

 

What he doesn't realize is what this sympathy is costing you emotionally.

 

No matter what people go through in their life, they should be a good friend in return. So what has he offered you recently as a valued friend?

 

Can you put him on a one-month haitus? I know you love him, but he seems to be taking more than he is giving at this point.

 

He doesn't realize that this sympathy is costing me emotionally. No, he does not.

[spice4life]

I frankly get what MH means, i see that a lot too. Take for a current example the "sh*t has hit the pan" thread and the attitude of the OP there: dozens of posts in which she cries for herself and says "f off" to the BW, her spouse, the entire town, any poster who criticizes, etc.

 

It's hard to give empathy for a person who displays none. Not just because of personal experience as a BS, but because its NOT supportive of someone to cheerlead behavior that will hurt them in the long run! It does NOT help someone to grow by enabling their bad behavior and to scream any criticism an insult to the OW/OM.

 

I like a good deal of MH's post. Yep, some of them are pretty harsh, but sugar coating the severity of the pain cheating causes isn't going to make the situation better. I wish I would have seen that kind of straight forward talk earlier, I would have left my marriage much sooner...

 

Perhaps take a look at it this way. You experienced some pretty horrible stuff when you were young and that stuff probably impacted you on levels that you may not have been aware of. They may have even made you vulnerable to the type of man you married and betrayed you. Once you understand how those experiences may have made you target for a man like that, then the likelyhood of that happening again is almost zero. However, you had to go through the pain of that betrayal and there were many stages in that process before you came out on the other side. AND, you went through it at your own pace.

 

Now take that shoe and put it on the foot of an OW. If experiences in your life made you vulnerable then whose to say that can't happen to an OW? Just because it is the other side of the equation doesn't mean there weren't factors in their own life that made them vlnerable to a person like that. And once it happens they too must go through a process to figure out why they ended up there to begin with. So instead of criticizing and judging them like MFH does, why not provide support to help them get there? Judgement and criticism isn't tough love; it's criticism and judgement.

[Eggplant]

He doesn't realize that this sympathy is costing me emotionally. No, he does not.

Men of this kind fall in love with what you give them, not just physically but emotionally too. I really hope that there exist men who truly will fall in love in an empathetic way. I want to add this to your list of characteristics on your other post. It's so awful to give your heart to somebody and then they do this. It happens to the best of us.

 

Someday, you'll find somebody better and you'll never even think about this person.

[Eggplant]

So instead of criticizing and judging them like MFH does, why not provide support to help them get there? Judgement and criticism isn't tough love; it's criticism and judgement.

 

I don't think AtheistScholar was really coming on here and criticizing Promises. She was feeling angry at the man thoughtlessly using Promises, and encouraging Promises to cut him off. Promises is trying to get out. Not trying to continue an affair.

 

As far as telling it like it is, that's important. Because in my case I had several divisions of my brain fighting with each other, and the rational part of my brain needed external help in killing the hope of the part of my brain that was going to make me jump into a pit of snakes.

 

Telling it straight should not feel good to the person doing it, if he or she is doing it with the intention of helping.

[spice4life]

I don't think AtheistScholar was really coming on here and criticizing Promises. She was feeling angry at the man thoughtlessly using Promises, and encouraging Promises to cut him off. Promises is trying to get out. Not trying to continue an affair.

 

As far as telling it like it is, that's important. Because in my case I had several divisions of my brain fighting with each other, and the rational part of my brain needed external help in killing the hope of the part of my brain that was going to make me jump into a pit of snakes.

 

Telling it straight should not feel good to the person doing it, if he or she is doing it with the intention of helping.

 

I wasn't referring to athiestscholar when I posted that about criticism and judgement. I like reading her insights and she delivers them with civility. I will leave it at that.

[Tenacity]

I did read it, the problem I have is the idea that hurting someone is excused often so flippantly.

 

i was molested by a family member when i was young, i dont use that history to excuse repeating that pain on someone else. So many OW/OM claim they did it because of pain of watching their own parents split, being cheated on in former relationships, having low self esteem, not being able to get a single partner, etc. Well I call horse sh*t: when you experience deep pain you don't want to do it to others. I think its a cop out to justify selfishness, and its typically after their own self gets hurt that they finally understand why its a bad idea.

 

Not everyone is like that of course, but it certainly seems to feel like a common theme around here.

 

I just don't see how it is a theme around here. I don't think most OW who post here regularly make excuses or are "flippant" about hurting someone else. Maybe we aren't reading the same threads.

[Got it]

Promises, if you really want to "block" him I don't agree with keeping the letters. As far as he knows you are receiving them and potentially reading them/hearing him. If you want him to know you are not interested, just put "return to sender" on them unopened.

 

Sorry honey, I am sorry the clown is still knocking.

[Tenacity]

This sounds awfully like oh it's ok to hurt people if YOU had reason to be vulnerable. Never mind that your victim was vulnerable.

 

The point that you miss is that no one is trying to "absolve" anyone by supporting them when they are in pain.

 

And remember - not all BS's are perfect, either. In fact, some BS's go on to become OW. How do you possibly explain that? Are they still victims then? I would think that they, especially, would know how it feels to hurt someone else in that way, yet I have seen many threads on this forum from BS's who became OW. Not all, but definitely some.

 

Lets absolve even when they're not sorry except for themselves. Judgment is how you avoid making those particular mistakes. Judgement is just a perjorative term for discernment.

 

Spice was referring to judging other people, which is completely different than what you are referring to above.

 

In any event. Promises has gotten your point, so I won't reply to any more of these posts and I hope we can drop this.

[Tenacity]

Promises, if you really want to "block" him I don't agree with keeping the letters. As far as he knows you are receiving them and potentially reading them/hearing him. If you want him to know you are not interested, just put "return to sender" on them unopened.

 

Sorry honey, I am sorry the clown is still knocking.

 

Promises, what about breaking the NC just long enough to send him an email and tell him to cease and desist with the letters, or else?

 

I don't usually think that would be a good idea - and maybe it isn't. Surely it wouldn't be if it will cause you more pain and delay healing. I just thought that might solve the problem of her possibly seeing any returned letters, and still get the message to him that you are not buying his sappy woe-is-me garbage.

 

Ex-MM did this to me too, when he was supposedly "working on his marriage". Uggh. Self-centered, narcissistic people aren't going to change.

[spice4life]

I did read it, the problem I have is the idea that hurting someone is excused often so flippantly.

 

i was molested by a family member when i was young, i dont use that history to excuse repeating that pain on someone else. So many OW/OM claim they did it because of pain of watching their own parents split, being cheated on in former relationships, having low self esteem, not being able to get a single partner, etc. Well I call horse sh*t: when you experience deep pain you don't want to do it to others. I think its a cop out to justify selfishness, and its typically after their own self gets hurt that they finally understand why its a bad idea.

 

Not everyone is like that of course, but it certainly seems to feel like a common theme around here.

 

Experiences effect people in different ways and that isn't a cop out. Some people learn the hard way, but at least they learn. Just because it wasnt a way you agree with doesn't mean they can't redeem themselves.

 

I won't say anymore in this threadjack. This is promises thread. Sorry promise!

[promises]

Promises, what about breaking the NC just long enough to send him an email and tell him to cease and desist with the letters, or else?

 

I don't usually think that would be a good idea - and maybe it isn't. Surely it wouldn't be if it will cause you more pain and delay healing. I just thought that might solve the problem of her possibly seeing any returned letters, and still get the message to him that you are not buying his sappy woe-is-me garbage.

 

Ex-MM did this to me too, when he was supposedly "working on his marriage". Uggh. Self-centered, narcissistic people aren't going to change.

 

 

I'm going to do nothing. I feel rather drained right now. Thinking about all of it. All I can do is what I am doing which is trying to be a stronger person and get healthy myself.

 

It's a highly emotional situation all the way around.

 

I'm trying to rebuild my life. New job, lost friends, getting healthy, etc. And, it's all going well. Just need to stay the course.

[promises]

Experiences effect people in different ways and that isn't a cop out. Some people learn the hard way, but at least they learn. Just because it wasnt a way you agree with doesn't mean they can't redeem themselves.

 

I won't say anymore in this threadjack. This is promises thread. Sorry promise!

 

 

No worries, Spice!

 

I'm just thankful for the support and dialog! It's been great.

[spice4life]

This sounds awfully like oh it's ok to hurt people if YOU had reason to be vulnerable. Never mind that your victim was vulnerable. Lets absolve even when they're not sorry except for themselves. Judgment is how you avoid making those particular mistakes. Judgement is just a perjorative term for discernment.

 

Your anger toward OW's in this forum make you vulnerable. I wonder what will play out in your life when something hits you and throws your life in chaos. I've read threads from people like you that spew so much venom against something only to come back and say *gulp* I didnt think that could ever happen to me.

[promises]

This just makes me sad. The OW walks away to a "great" life and leaves the family destroyed. Not just you, all his OW before as well. I seriously cannot fathom how anyone could do that to another human being. Retaliation I get. But not hurting others who have done nothing to you.

 

Well good for you that you feel you have the happiness you think you deserve. I happen to think his wife deserves so much more.

 

 

my life is far from great, MFH. I'm on LS talking to people. Not real people in real life.

 

However, shame isn't my forte any longer. And, I think every single person has a right to make the decision to make each day better. Everyone. Even you.

[Got it]

This just makes me sad. The OW walks away to a "great" life and leaves the family destroyed. Not just you, all his OW before as well. I seriously cannot fathom how anyone could do that to another human being. Retaliation I get. But not hurting others who have done nothing to you.

 

Well good for you that you feel you have the happiness you think you deserve. I happen to think his wife deserves so much more.

 

Do you actually read what is written before you continue spouting your venom? Where has Promise shown this amazing level of happiness? The BW knows about at least one other OW, where is the family destroyed and what do you think that the BW wants from the OW? How do you know that the BW didn't get it from the prior OW? You assume so much.

 

God, your anger and bitterness taints everything. No wonder you understand anger, retaliation, revenge but you seem to know nothing of forgiveness, acceptance or peace.

 

We KNOW you think the wife deserves more. You say that ad nausem over and over again. Do you really feel that anyone gets your message? You have alienated yourself from everyone here including the BS. Ugh, doesn't the banging your head on the wall become tiresome? Do you think that MAYBE if you changed tactics, tried to find a medium ground, that maybe your message would be heard and then maybe you can actual impact change.

 

And isn't that your desire? To impact change?

 

You do know the definition of insanity don't you?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Promises,

 

I think the affair is always about the MM. He deserves the APs love because he needs it. So ofcourse it's still about him. What could be so important in your life that his needs don't take precedence? His wife is dying and he needs a release???

 

I agree that his wife knows him better (has an accurate understanding of who she is married to). Being married to a N serial cheater is no walk in the park! I just feel so very sorry for the kids when she is gone.

 

Maybe rather than look ata these notes as trying, you can appreciate them for hammering the proverbial nail into the coffin.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

This just makes me sad. The OW walks away to a "great" life and leaves the family destroyed. Not just you, all his OW before as well. I seriously cannot fathom how anyone could do that to another human being. Retaliation I get. But not hurting others who have done nothing to you.

 

Well good for you that you feel you have the happiness you think you deserve. I happen to think his wife deserves so much more.

 

Yes, the wife deserved more, and who knows why she didn't choose it. No doubt she had her own reasons. This man is a serial cheater. He doesn't care whose life he ruins, including that of his own kids. Can you not see what a twisted individual he is by his correspondence? And who says the OW walks away to a great life? Who the heck knows what tomorrow will bring for any of us. It's a persons attitude rather than their circumstance that dictates happiness. And the truth is we all have personal control over our attitude. No One can take that away from someone unless they choose to let it be taken.

[LFH]

I'm going to do nothing. I feel rather drained right now. Thinking about all of it. All I can do is what I am doing which is trying to be a stronger person and get healthy myself.

 

It's a highly emotional situation all the way around.

 

I'm trying to rebuild my life. New job, lost friends, getting healthy, etc. And, it's all going well. Just need to stay the course.

 

Babysteps.

 

I'm glad it's going well. Be proud of the steps you've made. You can do this.