Christianity and Islam

February 23, 2013

captive is not in quran, just for you to know, and what you translate as'right hand possessed' means slaves, both of us know slavery was at times of Jesus & Muhammad and that Jesus never try to stop it.
Bible told women to stay silent in church and if they are raped, they marry the criminal.

I've never seen this in the Bible and would be interested to know where it states this?

Jesus ministry here was die for the sins of the world. Past, present and future sins. Though He addressed many issues, His primary purpose was not to "fix" present day issues.

I'm not trying to say that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren't concerned with matters of morality...although salvation is the main focus.

Bethy- apologies. A better use of words would have been that we need more to be his mouthpiece, speaking His words. I just like how you and others talk, but that is what I was trying to say:love:

February 23, 2013

Ben Kinsley has a propensity for playing religious and political figures. He also plays Moses and Potiphar.

Man is he good at that or what!!!!

Ok...now I remember. Of all of movies made of "Joseph", that one is my favorite one. You can see how Potiphar absolutely loved Joseph, but was bound by the law. He did an excellent job, they all did in that movie.

I'll have to watch the one where he plays Moses...Charlton Heston is hard to beat, but I bet he does a good job.

February 23, 2013

I've never seen this in the Bible and would be interested to know where it states this?

It is how critics interpret the bride price dowry penalty for having sex with a virgin in Deut 22:28-30. Like the slavery quotes it misses the cultural context that a non virgin in that society will never marry thus father will be on the hook financially for the rest of her life. Thus the "rapist", probably statutory not violent in present use pays his fine.

Edited February 23, 2013 by taiko

February 23, 2013

Obviously you think that "church" teachings are Christ's. This is false, try this. (i guess you think God was God before jesus came to earth ie trinity)?

I'm sorry, I don't think I follow .

RealLove, are you Muslim? If so, who is Jesus to you?

February 23, 2013

I've never seen this in the Bible and would be interested to know where it states this?

Here:

SILENCE!

[1 Tim 2:11-14]

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[1 Corin 14:34]

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

and here:

Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 teach that a female rape victim gets married to her rapist?

Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

Jesus ministry here was die for the sins of the world. Past, present and future sins. Though He addressed many issues, His primary purpose was not to "fix" present day issues.

I'm not trying to say that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren't concerned with matters of morality...although salvation is the main focus.

I think you agree with me that's against God Justice and logic.

Bethy- apologies. A better use of words would have been that we need more to be his mouthpiece, speaking His words. I just like how you and others talk, but that is what I was trying to say:love:

I really apologize

I never used to use this words too, but i had to after reading some inappropriate comments above

I'm sorry, I don't think I follow .

RealLove, are you Muslim? If so, who is Jesus to you?

Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth, and a chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Maryam’ (Mary).

A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran

( Note: this is good simplified illustrated guide to understand islam , found here )

Watch this:

February 23, 2013

I mean no offense. I'm not here to personally attack anyone or any faiths. We believe in the same God.

I was merely trying to redirect the focus of the topic, from whether or not he is a true prophet, to Mohammed the man because I felt he was being wrongfully slandered.

Plus, your earlier definition was one that said Jesus was compassionate and didn't kill. This would've left me to defend on the flaws of your argument, but it would've been seen as a personal attack on Christians and the Bible, so I chose a different topic.

But now I see that your definition of a prophet is as stated by the dictionary. By that reasoning I don't see what the problem is. For line 4 it specifically gives an example of what a prophet is, and that is Mohammed.

I know you would disagree. So we would be left with agreeing to disagreeing with one another.

So with that, I say, what does it matter. Jesus said there would be false prophets, sure. But if someones faith has made them a better person, what does it matter? You may not be satisfied with my answer, so I'll let one of your own Christian scholars, William Montgomery Watt, give you his for I can do no better...

"In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'...

In both Meccan and Medinan periods Muhammad's contemporaries looked on him as a good and upright man, and in the eyes of history he is a moral and social reformer...

Finally, what of our question? Was Muhammad a prophet? He was a man in whom creative imagination worked at deep levels and produced ideas relevant to the central questions of human existence, so that his religion has had a widespread appeal, not only in his own age but in succeeding centuries. Not all the ideas he proclaimed are true and sound, but by God's grace he has been enabled to provide millions of men with a better religion than they had before they testified that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the messenger of God."

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

I understand your points of argument. I have read the accounts that point to Mohammed doing evil things. I have read the contradictions within the Koran (the Bible is no different). The story of Mohammed is shrouded with contradictions as well. The Hadith you have to be careful with because further research shows that many, but not all, were fabricated for various motives.

Throughout the ages Mohammed has been slandered because of the prejudice against his faith.

So I have to question all the accounts of Mohammed and ask if it is an objectionable view of the man, is it based on hearsay, where does their source come from, and how strong is their evidence...

Now you say Mohammed raped his wives. On what evidence? Simply, because he married her and by marriage alone can we speculate that he raped her? I can recall stories of married men going years without sleeping with their wives (joke). But what you say is speculation, an opinion, with no evidence.

As for Saffiya, there is another account given. This account is given by Ismail ibn Kathir 1301 - 1373...

"Safiyya was the daughter of a great chief. The only person who could save her from becoming a slave after having enjoyed such a high position was the Prophet. Although her father had planned to assassinate Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) after the battle of Uhud, and had conspired with the Banu Qurayza to exterminate all the Muslims during the battle of al-Khandaq, it was characteristic of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he did not bear any grudges. For those who did wrong, he felt pity rather than anger, and for those who had done no wrong, he had even greater compassion...

Once the Prophet was accompanied on a journey by Safiyya and Zaynab bint Jahsh when Safiyya' s camel went lame. Zaynab had an extra camel and the Prophet asked her if she would give it to Safiyya. Zaynab retorted, "Should I give to that Jewess!" The Prophet turned away from her in anger and would not have anything to do with her for two or three months not to show his disapproval of what she had said. Some three years later, when Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was in his final illness, Safiyya felt for him deeply and sincerely. "O Messenger of Allah," she said, "I wish it was I who was suffering instead of you." Some of the wives winked at each other which made the Prophet cross and he exclaimed, "By Allah, she spoke the truth!""

(To read the accounts of Mohammed's wives the link is below. Page four is Safiyya's account. The next page link is at very bottom.)

wives1

many Muslims have been "nitpicking" Christian beliefs since Muhammad. It is perfectly fine for Christians to defend their beliefs nonviolently. It is also perfectly fine for Christians to explain why they do not believe Muhammad's claims, and it is perfectly fine for those who follow Muhammad and the Qur'an and the hadiths to explain why they believe Muhammad's claims.

I don't have a problem with you wanting to defend your faith. However, instead of defending your faith by pointing out your differences, would it not be better and good to defend your faith on the basis of similarities?

Islam and Christianity are 2 very different beliefs. As a Christian who has been invited numerous times to "revert" to Islam, it is important to me to study what Muhammad did as well as what the Qur'an and the hadiths say, and compare that to my beloved Jesus' actions and teachings, accounted in the Bible.

In another thread I related a story that describes religion as a tree. The many creeds and sects were the branches and leaves. Those who try to understand religion by counting the leaves and branches are not getting the whole picture. To understand the whole of religion one must study the trunk, doing so you'll get an understanding and have an appreciation for all faiths.

Right now we are stuck on the specifics of Christians, Jews and Muslims. We are counting the leaves and branches.

How about we go from the specifics, or particulars, to the general?

So let us generalize the Muslim faith:

1. Believe in God

2. Believe in the hierarchies and angels

3. Believe in the scriptures

4. Believe in the Prophets

5. Believe in the resurrection and last judgement

6. Believe in the predetermination of good and evil

Except for some certain emphasis, I don't see how this is not nearly identical to the Christian or Jewish faith.

Anyways, I see no point of us arguing about which faith, Muslim or Christian, is better. Whether Mohammed was a true prophet or not. Whether he was a bad person or not... Let your opinion of him be that he is not a prophet. But please, no more slandering of each others faiths.

What good does it do for any of us to sit here and contend upon who is right? We are all the children of God, are we not? Let us end it, with the words of Jesus.

Matthew 22:36

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

God bless.

Praise Allah.

February 23, 2013

I mean no offense. I'm not here to personally attack anyone or any faiths. We believe in the same God.

I was merely trying to redirect the focus of the topic, from whether or not he is a true prophet, to Mohammed the man because I felt he was being wrongfully slandered.

Plus, your earlier definition was one that said Jesus was compassionate and didn't kill. This would've left me to defend on the flaws of your argument, but it would've been seen as a personal attack on Christians and the Bible, so I chose a different topic.

But now I see that your definition of a prophet is as stated by the dictionary. By that reasoning I don't see what the problem is. For line 4 it specifically gives an example of what a prophet is, and that is Mohammed.

I know you would disagree. So we would be left with agreeing to disagreeing with one another.

So with that, I say, what does it matter. Jesus said there would be false prophets, sure. But if someones faith has made them a better person, what does it matter? You may not be satisfied with my answer, so I'll let one of your own Christian scholars, William Montgomery Watt, give you his for I can do no better...

"In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'...

In both Meccan and Medinan periods Muhammad's contemporaries looked on him as a good and upright man, and in the eyes of history he is a moral and social reformer...

Finally, what of our question? Was Muhammad a prophet? He was a man in whom creative imagination worked at deep levels and produced ideas relevant to the central questions of human existence, so that his religion has had a widespread appeal, not only in his own age but in succeeding centuries. Not all the ideas he proclaimed are true and sound, but by God's grace he has been enabled to provide millions of men with a better religion than they had before they testified that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the messenger of God."

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

I understand your points of argument. I have read the accounts that point to Mohammed doing evil things. I have read the contradictions within the Koran (the Bible is no different). The story of Mohammed is shrouded with contradictions as well. The Hadith you have to be careful with because further research shows that many, but not all, were fabricated for various motives.

Throughout the ages Mohammed has been slandered because of the prejudice against his faith.

So I have to question all the accounts of Mohammed and ask if it is an objectionable view of the man, is it based on hearsay, where does their source come from, and how strong is their evidence...

Now you say Mohammed raped his wives. On what evidence? Simply, because he married her and by marriage alone can we speculate that he raped her? I can recall stories of married men going years without sleeping with their wives (joke). But what you say is speculation, an opinion, with no evidence.

As for Saffiya, there is another account given. This account is given by Ismail ibn Kathir 1301 - 1373...

"Safiyya was the daughter of a great chief. The only person who could save her from becoming a slave after having enjoyed such a high position was the Prophet. Although her father had planned to assassinate Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) after the battle of Uhud, and had conspired with the Banu Qurayza to exterminate all the Muslims during the battle of al-Khandaq, it was characteristic of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he did not bear any grudges. For those who did wrong, he felt pity rather than anger, and for those who had done no wrong, he had even greater compassion...

Once the Prophet was accompanied on a journey by Safiyya and Zaynab bint Jahsh when Safiyya' s camel went lame. Zaynab had an extra camel and the Prophet asked her if she would give it to Safiyya. Zaynab retorted, "Should I give to that Jewess!" The Prophet turned away from her in anger and would not have anything to do with her for two or three months not to show his disapproval of what she had said. Some three years later, when Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was in his final illness, Safiyya felt for him deeply and sincerely. "O Messenger of Allah," she said, "I wish it was I who was suffering instead of you." Some of the wives winked at each other which made the Prophet cross and he exclaimed, "By Allah, she spoke the truth!""

(To read the accounts of Mohammed's wives the link is below. Page four is Safiyya's account. The next page link is at very bottom.)

wives1

I don't have a problem with you wanting to defend your faith. However, instead of defending your faith by pointing out your differences, would it not be better and good to defend your faith on the basis of similarities?

In another thread I related a story that describes religion as a tree. The many creeds and sects were the branches and leaves. Those who try to understand religion by counting the leaves and branches are not getting the whole picture. To understand the whole of religion one must study the trunk, doing so you'll get an understanding and have an appreciation for all faiths.

Right now we are stuck on the specifics of Christians, Jews and Muslims. We are counting the leaves and branches.

How about we go from the specifics, or particulars, to the general?

So let us generalize the Muslim faith:

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in the hierarchies and angels
3. Believe in the scriptures
4. Believe in the Prophets
5. Believe in the resurrection and last judgement
6. Believe in the predetermination of good and evil

Except for some certain emphasis, I don't see how this is not nearly identical to the Christian or Jewish faith.

Anyways, I see no point of us arguing about which faith, Muslim or Christian, is better. Whether Mohammed was a true prophet or not. Whether he was a bad person or not... Let your opinion of him be that he is not a prophet. But please, no more slandering of each others faiths.

What good does it do for any of us to sit here and contend upon who is right? We are all the children of God, are we not? Let us end it, with the words of Jesus.

Matthew 22:36

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

God bless.

Praise Allah.

are things praiseworthy?

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

February 23, 2013

It is how critics interpret the bride price dowry penalty for having sex with a virgin in Deut 22:28-30. Like the slavery quotes it misses the cultural context that a non virgin in that society will never marry thus father will be on the hook financially for the rest of her life. Thus the "rapist", probably statutory not violent in present use pays his fine.

Thanks Taiko, this is what I thought..

LOL, when I first read these verses, if you take the literal context without looking up keywords and their translations, one could take the literal interpretation.

February 23, 2013

Here:
SILENCE!
[1 Tim 2:11-14]
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[1 Corin 14:34]
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
and here:
Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 teach that a female rape victim gets married to her rapist?
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
I think you agree with me that's against God Justice and logic.

Thank you RL ...you know, I've never been able to do the multi-quote thing...soooo:) bare with me love.

So that I could better understand what Taiko was saying, the full understanding, looked it up and received this explanation also (my mind is a bit off as of late;)) ... *Note* this explanation was taken from another site where the same question was asked in a more "combative" way if you will.

Please check your references; you are misinterpreting two different verbs in Deuteronomy 22. Verse 25 (chazak) meaning to take something by force, and the verse you posted (taphas). "Chazak" is the same word for strength, so it's obvious this is prohibiting rape by force. However, this verse has nothing to do with force, but "taphas" is translated more often "take" or "take away" in the rest of the Hebrew Bible. You are mistaken about this verse; this law deals directly with cunning men who lie (consensually) with young women without paying the price of a virgin. If they play, they have to pay- and then have to make things right with her father and in the eyes of the community. This commandment does solve what the Torah (law) set out to do- to provide laws for the greater good of the land of Israel- a constitution if you will. The idea is, if I knew the penalty for letting a man sleep with me out of wedlock, I'd better be willing to marry him. Therefore with this law in place, maybe I'll think twice about it and keep my purity. Much like the commandment "an eye for an eye", if I knew I might lose an eye out of the deal, maybe I won't fight. And that's the true point of the law- the greater good and peace of Israel, which is fair at the end of the day.

*End Quote*

I know this sounds confusing RL, it is to me at times (so that's why I say this). When the translations took place, from Hebrew/Greek to English there are certain words that change the context of the meaning, so there is a need to return to the original Hebrew/Greek (Hebrew O/T and Greek N/T) to get the actual meaning. At times, even the same word can be taken out of context. For instance, the word "love" can be used in different verses and all have different meanings...on that one I forget how to distunquish the different meanings, but if memory serves me correct, I think it lets you know in the in the Hebrew/Greek dictionary. Thinking it lets you know what meaning is for what scripture. (This may not have made sense...it's been sometime since giving this explanation...lol)

Concerning female submission to the male, it's been sometime since the study of that one. I do remember something quite interesting I found in it, and it was the Apostle Paul speaking (it sounds like him anyway). I need to re-visit that study and am soooo tired right now and would like to pick this up tomorrow.

Again want to thank you and Taiko for answering my question...this is an awesome discussion and study, quite compelling IMO.

February 23, 2013

Please check your references; you are misinterpreting two different verbs in Deuteronomy 22. Verse 25 (chazak) meaning to take something by force, and the verse you posted (taphas). "Chazak" is the same word for strength, so it's obvious this is prohibiting rape by force. However, this verse has nothing to do with force, but "taphas" is translated more often "take" or "take away" in the rest of the Hebrew Bible. You are mistaken about this verse; this law deals directly with cunning men who lie (consensually) with young women without paying the price of a virgin. If they play, they have to pay- and then have to make things right with her father and in the eyes of the community. This commandment does solve what the Torah (law) set out to do- to provide laws for the greater good of the land of Israel- a constitution if you will. The idea is, if I knew the penalty for letting a man sleep with me out of wedlock, I'd better be willing to marry him. Therefore with this law in place, maybe I'll think twice about it and keep my purity. Much like the commandment "an eye for an eye", if I knew I might lose an eye out of the deal, maybe I won't fight. And that's the true point of the law- the greater good and peace of Israel, which is fair at the end of the day.

.

It makes me appreciate the Calvary Chapel's teaching style. Instead of taking versus to illustrate a point they tend to start at Genesis 1:1 and plow straight through to Revelation 21:21. As a sister taught me, don't read versus read chapters. However even before being able to google attack versus the chapter and verse template put into the Holy Bible and other Holy books lead to what we have today, it also happens with political sound bites, where an attack sentence is taken out of context. Especially in this case of the virgin woman marrying her rapist when just sentences before women and rapist are sentenced to death for the crimes of rape and adultery.

February 23, 2013

captive is not in quran, just for you to know,

I did not translate the Qur'an, but I trust the translator did so correctly. It is interesting how the translator felt "(captive)" needed to be added then.

and what you translate as'right hand possessed' means slaves, both of us know slavery was at times of Jesus & Muhammad and that Jesus never try to stop it.

If one takes into consideration Jesus' commands to love one neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39), to love each other (John 15:12), and love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37), as well as the "golden rule" that Jesus quoted: "Do to others as you would have them do to you." which is accounted in verse 31 of Luke 6, then common sense

states that enslaving people is most definitely not loving people or doing to them what one would have others do to oneself.

This is just one of the areas where Muhammad and Jesus' teachings are very different. Jesus taught love for ones enemies, while Muhammad had no problem conquering and enslaving his enemies.

Bible told women to stay silent in church

Paul is not the Bible. While Paul's letters were compiled into the Bible, it is important to note that Paul's letters were directed to specific churches and addressed specific issues going on in that church and area. Paul gave some very harsh advice to the church in Corinth. Apparently, the church in Corinth had many issues. 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 is where Paul addresses an issue in the Corinthian church, and although I was of course not there, I suspect that it's possible some women were contributing to disorderly conduct in the church.

As a Christian lady, I strive to not cause disorderly conduct in the church. Now, while I have had many questions and continue to question different things, I do ask my husband and we talk about it. I also ask my Dad and we talk about it. I also have asked my Pastor, as well as a Messianic Jewish man, some tough questions but I strive not to cause a scene in church out of respect.

and if they are raped, they marry the criminal.

First of all, one needs to context to this part of the Law of Moses. Also, it is important to understand that Jesus fulfills the Law of Moses and thus why Christians (both Jews and Gentiles) no longer do animal sacrifices (Yay!!!

) and are no longer under the Law of Moses (and Gentiles weren't under the Law of Moses anyways, unless they wanted to be, like Ruth who converted to Judaism.)

The Law of Moses was very harsh. The sentence of death was given for things I personally do not feel warrants death! Now, while I personally do not at all agree with many parts of the Law of Moses, I understand that my worldview is colored by Jesus' teachings to love. If however I was in the time of the Law of Moses, which was before Jesus' teachings, then it is possible I would not have such an issue with it.

Regardless of how I feel on the subject, some people consider the harshness of the Law of Moses to have been motivated by keeping the Israelites pure as a people group from straying away from G-d. I understand that, though I very much think that God's love through Jesus is a much greater motivation for not straying from God than harshness/fear of death is!

Here is the context to the common misconception:

Deuteronomy 22 (I boldened some.)

Deuteronomy 22 NIV - If you see your fellow Israelite?s ox - Bible Gateway

"22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. 23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

30 A man is not to marry his father’s wife; he must not dishonor his father’s bed.[d]"

Now to address the common misconception that a rape victim has to marry her rapist. That is not true because of REVENGE. In that time, revenge was a part of many cultures, including the Israelite culture. (Again, this is before Jesus' teachings on loving and forgiving even one's enemies.) If you look at 2 cases of rape accounted in the Tanakh/Old Testament, you will see that the rapist is killed by the brothers of the rape victim.

Let's look at the case of Dinah, the sister of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel):

Genesis 34 (I boldened some.)

Gen 34 NIV - Dinah and the Shechemites - Now Dinah, - Bible Gateway

"Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. 2When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her. 3 His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob; he loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. 4 And Shechem said to his father Hamor, “Get me this girl as my wife.”

Now, I personally don't think he truly loved her, but rather thought that he loved her. Anyways... did she marry her rapist? Nope! Why? It's hard to marry a dead person...

"25 Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male.26 They put Hamor and his son Shechem to the sword and took Dinah from Shechem’s house and left."

Now, this was before the Law of Moses, but the Jewish males who were in the time of the Law of Moses already knew that it is very possible for the family of the rape victim to kill the rapist just through studying history.

Now, let's see about a case after the Law of Moses during the time of King David (and I am really disappointed in King David by the way for not punishing himself his son who raped his daughter from another mother.)

2 Samuel 13 (I boldened some.)

2 Samuel 13 NIV - Amnon and Tamar - In the course of - Bible Gateway

12 “No, my brother!” she said to him. “Don’t force me! Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don’t do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you.” 14But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, “Get up and get out!”

16 “No!” she said to him. “Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me.”

Now, I personally don't understand, since I was not in that time and age, why Tamar said what she did. However, I do understand why her brother Absalom killed Amnon. If I were before Jesus' teachings to love and forgive, I would have no moral hindrance with killing a rapist either!!!

"28Absalom ordered his men, “Listen! When Amnon is in high spirits from drinking wine and I say to you, ‘Strike Amnon down,’ then kill him. Don’t be afraid. Haven’t I given you this order? Be strong and brave.”29 So Absalom’s men did to Amnon what Absalom had ordered. Then all the king’s sons got up, mounted their mules and fled. 30 While they were on their way, the report came to David: “Absalom has struck down all the king’s sons; not one of them is left.” 31 The king stood up, tore his clothes and lay down on the ground; and all his attendants stood by with their clothes torn.

32 But Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother, said, “My lord should not think that they killed all the princes; only Amnon is dead. This has been Absalom’s express intention ever since the day Amnon raped his sister Tamar. 33 My lord the king should not be concerned about the report that all the king’s sons are dead. Only Amnon is dead.”

So, it is not true that rape victims had to marry their rapist, even during the time of the Law of Moses, because it is very likely that the rapist would end up dead, killed by members of the rape victim's family.

As for Christians, Christians are to follow Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus did not condone killing a woman caught in adultery (and where was the man???) Rather, Jesus forgave the woman and pointed out that her accusers were sinners too! (John 8:1-11) When he met and talked with the Samaritan lady who "had 5 husbands", he did not condemn her either (John 4:1) but rather treated her with kindness, respect, and love.

Nowadays, rape is against the law of the land in many countries where Christians live. This is understandable and good, since it is important to prosecute rapists and hinder the desire to rape someone. Christians have the choice however if they will forgive the rapist (and they can still prosecute because of the law of the land) or not. There are some Christian ladies who have forgiven their rapists, and the rapist was justly prosecuted due to breaking the law of the land.

February 23, 2013

I mean no offense. I'm not here to personally attack anyone or any faiths. We believe in the same God.

I was merely trying to redirect the focus of the topic, from whether or not he is a true prophet, to Mohammed the man because I felt he was being wrongfully slandered.

Reporting what Muhammad did to many people who did not believe his claims is not slander. It is merely telling the truth.

Plus, your earlier definition was one that said Jesus was compassionate and didn't kill. This would've left me to defend on the flaws of your argument, but it would've been seen as a personal attack on Christians and the Bible, so I chose a different topic.

It is perfectly fine for you to kindly explain why you do not think Jesus was compassionate and if you think he killed people, if that is what you believe. I have no issue with polite discussions where there are differences in opinion.

But now I see that your definition of a prophet is as stated by the dictionary. By that reasoning I don't see what the problem is. For line 4 it specifically gives an example of what a prophet is, and that is Mohammed.

Christians who follow Jesus' teachings consider Muhammad to be a false prophet, one of many that Jesus prophesied would come (Matthew 24:11). Sadly, false prophets exist.

I know you would disagree. So we would be left with agreeing to disagreeing with one another.

Agreed with that

So with that, I say, what does it matter.

It matters to Christians because it is our joy to follow Jesus' teachings.

Jesus said there would be false prophets, sure. But if someones faith has made them a better person, what does it matter?

For Christians, it matters because of the following: (I boldened some of Jesus' words.)

Matthew 24 (I boldened some.)

Mat 24 NIV - The Destruction of the Temple and Signs - Bible Gateway

"10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Now, I do agree that there are many Muslims and people who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, who are wonderful people! Some of my heroes are Muslims, including Malala and her father!!! They are awesome people and I personally believe they will go to Heaven (though many Christians disagree with me on that).

However, they do not consider themselves Christians and that is fine. Freedom of religion is very important, which includes the ability for people to follow different religions or not any at all. There are many differences however between Christianity (following Jesus Christ) and Islam (following Muhammad) and even though there are wonderful people who follow Muhammad, his contradictions of Jesus' teachings, as well as how he treated Christians and Jews when he had power, shows that he is a false prophet in the area where Christianity is concerned.

You may not be satisfied with my answer, so I'll let one of your own Christian scholars, William Montgomery Watt, give you his for I can do no better...

"In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'...

I have not studied William Mongtomery Watt's reflections on Muhammad or anyone else, but from what he said above, I do not think he takes into consideration the harm Muhammad did to people who did not believe his claims once he had the power to conquer them.

In both Meccan and Medinan periods Muhammad's contemporaries looked on him as a good and upright man, and in the eyes of history he is a moral and social reformer...

His followers looked on him this way, but he ordered the deaths of many people who were his critics. Thus, if one only looks at the "eyes of history" through the eyes of his followers and admirerers, that shows a marked indifference/apathy toward those who suffered because of him due to not following/admiring him.

Interestingly, history is often portrayed subjectively. For example, most Native Americans today do not glorify the European colonists who persecuted their ancestors. In the same way, many Jewish people today do not glorify the man who led the persecution against their people who lived in Arabia.

I would like to encourage you to study about the Jewish people in Arabia at the time of Muhammad, and how they suffered because of not believing his claims. The following is one site that deals with this: (I boldened some.)

What Happened to the Jews of Arabia?

"The Jews of Medina were divided into three groups: The Banu Qaynuqa were blacksmiths, weapon wrights, and goldsmiths. The Banu Nadir had date plantations. The Banu QurayUa were wine merchants. These groups often quarreled. Sometimes the hostility among them broke out into actual fighting. When Mohammed fled from Mecca in 622, he went to Medina. At first, he entered into an alliance with the Jews. He studied in their study halls and adopted many of their customs into his incipient religion (e.g. not eating pork). But when, after two years, Mohammed could not convince the Jews to accept him as a prophet and convert to his religion, his attitude turned toward open hostility. He instructed his friends to murder and decapitate Ka’b Ibn al-Ashraf, a renowned Jewish poet and chief of the Banu Nadir (date farmers tribe), and ordered his followers, “Kill every Jew you can.” 2

Mohammed then besieged the Banu Qaynuqa (blacksmith tribe), knowing that the other two Jewish tribes would not come to their aid. Although the Banu Qaynuqa were proficient warriors, the lack of food and water due to the siege weakened them to the point of surrender."

Interestingly, many Muslims today still hate Jewish people who do not accept Muhammad's claims. This is very sad. Please see the following video of a beautiful, innocent little girl who has been taught to hate Jewish people through Muhammad's teachings:Muslim Sesame Street V: Pepsi Cola, the Apes, Pigs and Jews - YouTube

Now, while "Christians" have throughout the centuries horribly disobeyed Jesus' teachings to love and not understood that Jesus is Jewish, it is important to note that Jesus did not teach his followers to hate Jewish people or persecute anyone. Rather, he taught his followers to love and forgive.

Finally, what of our question? Was Muhammad a prophet? He was a man in whom creative imagination worked at deep levels and produced ideas relevant to the central questions of human existence, so that his religion has had a widespread appeal, not only in his own age but in succeeding centuries. Not all the ideas he proclaimed are true and sound, butby God's grace he has been enabled to provide millions of men with a better religion than they had before they testified that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the messenger of God."

While Muhammad's tribe was considered "pagan" because of their belief in gods, I personally do not think that conquering them and forcing them to convert to Islam was helpful, although I do admit Muhammad did some good things too. I also have a huge issue with how people who called themselves Christians conquered Native Americans and tried to force them to be Christians, as well as enslaved people different than them, even though the European colonists did some good things as well. Jesus however did not at all teach his followers to conquer other people and force them to believe in him!!! Rather, he told them to tell about him. Telling however is much different than using weapons as a threat if one does not believe!!!

As for Christian beliefs, they are not based on Muhammad's claims at all, but rather based on Jesus' claims and his teachings. Muhammad contradicted Jesus' teachings and example, which is why those who follow Jesus' teachings and examples do not accept his claim.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

I understand your points of argument. I have read the accounts that point to Mohammed doing evil things. I have read the contradictions within the Koran (the Bible is no different). The story of Mohammed is shrouded with contradictions as well. The Hadith you have to be careful with because further research shows that many, but not all, were fabricated for various motives.

Throughout the ages Mohammed has been slandered because of the prejudice against his faith.

So I have to question all the accounts of Mohammed and ask if it is an objectionable view of the man, is it based on hearsay, where does their source come from, and how strong is their evidence...

Interestingly, the hadiths are Muslim sources and they provide much of the evidence which show the harm Muhammad did to many people who did not believe his claim.. Some Muslims, even to this day, simply label the people who talk about the harm Muhammad as "slanderers" and some even try to kill or silence those who talk about it.

Now you say Mohammed raped his wives. On what evidence? Simply, because he married her and by marriage alone can we speculate that he raped her? I can recall stories of married men going years without sleeping with their wives (joke). But what you say is speculation, an opinion, with no evidence.

I did not say that Muhammad raped all his wives. However, according to this day and age, he did commit statutory rape if Aisha was 9 years old when he consummated his marriage with her. Also, he did enslave some women and he did marry a 17 year old Jewish girl whose father, previous husband, and brother were killed by Muslims. Now, you can of course say there is no evidence, but the Muslim hadiths are actually part of the evidence.

As for Saffiya, there is another account given. This account is given by Ismail ibn Kathir 1301 - 1373...

"Safiyya was the daughter of a great chief. The only person who could save her from becoming a slave after having enjoyed such a high position was the Prophet. Although her father had planned to assassinate Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) after the battle of Uhud, and had conspired with the Banu Qurayza to exterminate all the Muslims during the battle of al-Khandaq, it was characteristic of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he did not bear any grudges. For those who did wrong, he felt pity rather than anger, and for those who had done no wrong, he had even greater compassion...

Once the Prophet was accompanied on a journey by Safiyya and Zaynab bint Jahsh when Safiyya' s camel went lame. Zaynab had an extra camel and the Prophet asked her if she would give it to Safiyya. Zaynab retorted, "Should I give to that Jewess!" The Prophet turned away from her in anger and would not have anything to do with her for two or three months not to show his disapproval of what she had said. Some three years later, when Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was in his final illness, Safiyya felt for him deeply and sincerely. "O Messenger of Allah," she said, "I wish it was I who was suffering instead of you." Some of the wives winked at each other which made the Prophet cross and he exclaimed, "By Allah, she spoke the truth!""

(To read the accounts of Mohammed's wives the link is below. Page four is Safiyya's account. The next page link is at very bottom.)

wives1

I boldened the part about the only person who could save her being a slave was the prophet. First of all, why did she "need" to have been "saved" from slavery in the first place??? Why wasn't this girl still with her family? It was because of the murder of the men of her family at the hands of Muslims which was why she was in such a horrible position in the first place!!! As for marrying the man who ordered the killing of the men of her family, I do not think that equals being saved from slavery. As for why she married him, I think she was only trying to survive a horrible situation in which she found herself.

The following is an article that goes into detail concerning the horrible emotional/psychological abuse this lady suffered at the hands of Muhammad:

Did Muhammad rape Safiyah? | Alisina.org

Another article concerning the horrible crime of Muhammad raping this girl whose Dad, husband, and brother were slain by Muslims is the following:

Rape of Safia, Response to Nabil Ahmed :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

The following is from the article and much of it references Muslim sources (I boldened some.)

" Here is from Book of Tabaqat by Sad (and Ishaq)" Safia was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account". The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766)"

This is also interesting but sad:

( Word rape does not even exist in quran). Anyways Do you really believe if it really matters when you have sex with a traumatized young girl after killing her husband, father and brother .. What choice does she has anyways?.

Mr Ahmed in Islam even wives are not allowed to say no to their husbands, what to talk of a captured woman and slave girl: Read on:

Bukhari:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 122:

The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband's bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband.

Another hadith says a wife must oblige even if husbad gets an urge on a camels back (Majah)

You know quran has given the open option of changing wives if she starts refusing you:

Quran 4.20 " if ye wish to exchange one wife for another, do not take anything back you gave her as gifts."

As for the Qur'an concerning sex with captives, below are the verses: (in the Yusuf Ali translation)

IslamiCity: Quran Search

4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

4:24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. "

23:6 "Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame, "

70:29 "And those who guard their chastity,

70:30 Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,"

Now, Jesus did not at all encourage his followers to capture people and have sex with them!!! Rather, he warned his followers the importance of not lusting (Matthew 5:27-30) and he showed God's ideal in his answer to questions about divorce (Matthew 19:1-9).

I don't have a problem with you wanting to defend your faith. However, instead of defending your faith by pointing out your differences, would it not be better and good to defend your faith on the basis of similarities?

The similarities between Christianity and Islam include the following:

1. Belief in God, even though many Christians believe that God is triune (three in one) whereas many Muslims mock this.

2. Praying (though the prayers are different)

3. Giving to the poor

4. Modesty (though modesty is defined differently by different groups of both Christians and Muslims)

5. Sexual purity (though while Jesus quoted from Genesis concerning one man and one woman being 2 becoming one flesh), Muhammad had many wives and also had sex with captives, as well as some other Muslims did/do the same.)

6. Having a "Holy Book" (though most Muslims think that the Bible is corrupted and most Christians think that the Qur'an was dictated by a false prophet.)

7. Belief in Heaven and hell, judgement day

8. Belief that Jesus will come back again, though Muslims think he will come back as a Muslim(follower of Muhammad).

So, even in similarities, there are many differences. However, I do think it is important to live together in peace. The main reason I think this though is because of Jesus' teachings to love. Horribly, throughout the centuries, some "Christians" have completely disobeyed Jesus' commands to love and have persecuted and murdered "pagans", Jews, Muslims, "witches", Native Americans, and other people. This is completely unacceptable. Sadly, in many Muslim dominated countries, some Christians are persecuted and some are killed, which is why it is important to see the differences between what Jesus did taught and what Muhammad did and taught. It is very important to note that people who follow Jesus' teachings understand the importance of NOT persecuting those who do not believe in Jesus!

The following article uses Muslim sources to show how Muhammad ordered the deaths of many people who did not believe in him:

Rape of Safia, Response to Nabil Ahmed :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes (I boldened some.)

"The earliest extant biography of Muhammad is the Sirat Rasul Allah by Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, who was born at the beginning of the eighth century AD in Medina. His grandfather, Yasar, became a Muslim shortly after being captured around AD 634. Yasar’s son Ishaq began collecting traditions about Muhammad, and his grandson Muhammad followed in the footsteps of his father Ishaq. By age thirty, Muhammad Ibn (“son of”) Ishaq was recognized as an authority on the traditions about Muhammad. He compiled the most reliable sources into the Sirat Rasul Allah, providing us with an early, largely accurate, and authoritative source on the life of Muhammad.

Most of the following accounts are taken from Ibn Ishaq’s work. As the title of this essay implies, I have focused here on cases displaying Muhammad’s cruelty, for these stories are almost always omitted in modern Muslim accounts of the life of Muhammad. However, it must not be forgotten that the Sirat Rasul Allah contains many instances of Muhammad’s kindness and mercy; thus, the following excerpts should be considered alongside the more favorable traditions.

The Case of Uqba bin Abu Mu’ayt

Of all the people killed by Muhammad, Uqba was among those most worthy of punishment. He ridiculed and tormented Muhammad while the latter was still in Mecca. Indeed, Uqba was so disrespectful that he once spit in Muhammad’s face,and he later fought the Muslims at Badr. He is only listed here because of the particularly callous response that Muhammad gave him at his execution: “When the apostle ordered him to be killed Uqba said, ‘But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?’ ‘Hell,’ he said.”[6]

The Case of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf

When Ka’b heard of all the men who had been killed by Muslims at the Battle of Badr, he wept for the departed and composed a poem in memory of their good works. The Muslims responded with poetry of their own. One Muslim woman answered:

Would that those weltering in their blood

Could be seen by those who live between Mecca’s mountains!

They would know for certain and would see

How they were dragged along by hair and beard.

After this, Ka’b wrote poetry against the Muslim women, and Muhammad subsequently called for his assassination:

The apostle said . . . “Who will rid me of Ibnu’l-Ashraf [Ka’b]?” Muhammad bin Maslama . . . said, “I will deal with him for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him.” [Muhammad] said, “Do so if you can.” . . . The apostle said, “All that is incumbent upon you is that you should try.” [The assassin] said, “O apostle of God, we shall have to tell lies.” He answered, “Say what you like, for you are free in this matter.”[8]

Muhammad bin Maslama, having received from Muhammad permission to lie, proceeded with his plan to murder Ka’b. The Muslims sent Silkan, a lover of poetry, to befriend Ka’b. Silkan and Ka’b spent some time reciting verses to one another, until the former asked a favor of his new friend. Silkan said that he and his companions wanted to buy some food from Ka’b and that he would put down a number of weapons as a pledge until payment could be made. He did this so that Ka’b “would not take alarm at the sight of weapons when they brought them.” The Muslims came later with their weapons and invited Ka’b to join them for a walk, and he gladly joined them.

After a time Abu Na’ila ran his hand through [Ka’b’s] hair. Then he smelt his hand, and said, “I have never smelt a scent finer than this.” They walked on farther and he did the same so that Ka’b suspected no evil. Then after a space he did it for the third time, and cried, “Smite the enemy of God!” So they smote him, and their swords clashed over him with no effect. Muhammad bin Maslama said, “I remembered my dagger when I saw that our swords were useless, and I seized it. Meanwhile the enemy of God had made such a noise that every fort around us was showing a light. I thrust it into the lower part of his body, then I bore down upon it until I reached his genitals, and the enemy of God fell to the ground.”

The assassination of Ka’b had the desired effect: “Our attack upon God’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.”[10]

The Case of Ibn Sunayna

Ibn Sunayna was a Jewish merchant whose only crime seems to be that he was in town when the Muslims went on a killing spree:

The apostle said, “Kill any Jew that falls into your power.” Thereupon Muhayyisa bin Mas’ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, “You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?” Muhayyisa answered, “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.” He said that this was the beginning of Huwayyisa’s acceptance of Islam. The other replied, “By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me would you have killed me?” He said, “Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut off your head I would have done so.” He exclaimed, “By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!” And he became a Muslim.

The Case of Mirba bin Qayzi

News of Muhammad’s victories and assassinations spread rapidly, and many people became angry at him. One such person was a blind man named Mirba bin Qayzi:

[The Muslims] came out in the territory of Mirba bin Qayzi who was a blind man, a disaffected person. When he perceived the approach of the apostle and his men he got up and threw dust in their faces saying, “You may be the apostle of God, but I won’t let you through my garden!” I was told that he took a handful of dust and said, “By God, Muhammad, if I could be sure that I should not hit someone else I would throw it in your face.” The people rushed on him to kill him, and the apostle said, “Do not kill him, for this blind man is blind of heart, blind of sight.” Sa’d bin Zayd . . . rushed at him before the apostle had forbidden this and hit him on the head with his bow so that he split it open.”

In Muhammad’s defense, he did order his men not to kill Mirba. Nevertheless, the passage shows how quick the Muslims were to kill anyone who insulted Muhammad, and that they were growing accustomed to doing so. Further, we have no evidence that Muhammad so much as reprimanded Sa’d for bludgeoning the man.

The Case of the Qurayza Jews

The men of Qurayza resisted Muhammad and attempted to form an alliance against him. When the alliance faltered, Muhammad acted quickly. His armies surrounded them and “besieged them for twenty-five nights until they were sore pressed and God cast terror into their hearts.

Muhammad selected Sa’d bin Mu’adh to decide their punishment, and al-Aus, an ally of Qurayza, agreed to let Sa’d choose the punishment. Sa’d declared that “the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives.”[14]

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina. . . . Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. . . . There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka’b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, “Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!” This went on until the apostle made an end of them.[15]

Every male who had reached puberty was killed.[16]

A woman named Bunanah was beheaded because she had dropped a millstone on one of Muhammad’s men.[17]

Muhammad divided the women, children, and property among his men (taking a fifth of everything for himself). Some of the women were sold for horses and weapons, and Muhammad kept one of the captive women, Rayhana, for himself.[18]

The Case of Sallam Ibn Abu’l-Huqayq

The events surrounding the death of Sallam are interesting. Two tribes were competing with one another to see who could do the most for Muhammad:

One of the things which God did for His apostle was that these two tribes of the Ansar, Aus and Khazraj, competed the one with the other like two stallions: if Aus did anything to the apostle’s advantage Khazraj would say, “They shall not have this superiority over us in the apostle’s eyes and in Islam” and they would not rest until they could do something similar.[19]

The men of Aus had received the honor of assassinating Ka’b bin al-Ashraf, so the men of Khazraj longed to boast of a similar achievement. Hence, they went to Muhammad and asked for permission to murder Sallam Ibn Abu’l-Huqayq, and Muhammad granted their request.

When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam’s house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. Now he was in an upper chamber of his to which a ladder led up. They mounted this until they came to the door and asked to be allowed to come in. His wife came out and asked who they were and they told her that they were Arabs in search of supplies. She told them that their man was here and that they could come in. When we entered we bolted the door of the room on her and ourselves fearing lest something should come between us and him. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he was on his bed. . . . When we had smitten him with our swords Abdullah bin Unays bore down with his sword into his belly until it went right through him.”[20]

The Case of Kinana bin al-Rabi

Muhammad and his men conquered a town called Khaybar and distributed its riches and women among themselves.[21]

They captured Kinana bin al-Rabi, who was in charge of the treasure of one of the conquered tribes. Muhammad demanded the treasure, but Kinana refused to tell him where it was hidden.

When [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has,” so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud [who had been killed in battle while conquering the town][22]

The Case of an Anonymous One-Eyed Shepherd

After failing at one of their assassination attempts, some Muslims were returning to Muhammad when one of them, an assassin named Amr, went into a cave. He soon encountered a one-eyed shepherd driving a sheep. The one-eyed man laid beside Amr (not realizing that he was a Muslim) and began to sing:]I won’t be a Muslim as long as I live,Nor heed to their religion give[24]Amr didn’t miss his chance to kill an infidel:

I said (to myself), “You will soon know!” and as soon as the badu was asleep and snoring I got up and killed him in a more horrible way than any man has been killed. I put the end of my bow in his sound eye, then I bore down on it until I forced it out at the back of his neck[25]

A couple of other people were killed during this failed expedition, yet when Amr reported the details to Muhammad, the Prophet blessed him for his work.[26]

The Case of Abu Afak

Abu Afak, saddened because Muhammad had killed someone named al-Harith, composed the following song in memory of the departed:

Long have I lived but never have I seen

[An assembly or collection of people

More faithful to their undertaking

And their allies when called upon

Than the sons of Qayla when they assembled,

Men who overthrew mountains and never submitted.

A rider who came to them split them in two (saying)‘Permitted’, ‘Forbidden’ of all sorts of things.

Had you believed in glory or kingship, You would have followed Tubba.These words were too much for Muhammad to bear, so the Prophet of Islam flew into a rage that ended with the death of Abu Afak.][28]

The Case of Asma

A woman named Asma (who had five sons) was appalled at the murder of Abu Afak, so she wrote a poem against the Muslims in retaliation. Ibn Ishaq relates the account of what followed:When the apostle heard what she had said he said, “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?” Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, “You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!” When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, “Two goats won’t butt their heads about her,” so Umayr went back to his people.

The Case of Abdullah bin Khatal and His Two Singing Girls

Abdullah bin Khatal was a Muslim who later apostatized. He had two singing girls who sang satirical songs about the Prophet. As soon as Muhammad had the power, he ordered that all three be killed. Abdullah was killed by two Muslims. One of the singing girls was killed. The other was later given immunity, for unknown reasons.

The Case of al-Huwayrith

All that is known of al-Huwayrith is that he insulted Muhammad, that Muhammad demanded he be killed, and that Ali carried out Muhammad’s wishes.

The Case of Sara, a Freed Slave

Sara was a freed slave who had insulted Muhammad in Mecca. Muhammad commanded his men to kill her wherever they find her. She was eventually found and trampled to death by a mounted soldier.AssessmentMuhammad ordered the murders of numerous people, often because they had insulted him years earlier or written poems against Islam, and he permitted lying as long as it would lead to the deaths of his enemies. He also commanded that apostates be killed.Muhammad’s followers murdered both men and women, including a blind man, and they beheaded hundreds of Jews who had surrendered to the Muslims. Of course, these assassinations and executions do not necessitate the conclusion that Muhammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant, as is often claimed about him in Christian and Jewish writings. As I have previously stated, Muhammad also performed many kind and noble deeds, and he forgave many who fought against him. However, while Muhammad probably wasn’t as bad as some of his critics now claim, neither was he nearly as good as his admirers claim. As Thomas Lippman has noted,It seems safe to say that Muhammad was sincere, dedicated, courageous, generous, compassionate, and committed to social justice and reform. The uncritical admiration of him that one hears from ordinary Muslims, however, overlooks the evidence that the Prophet was also sometimes vengeful, spiteful, and duplicitous. He was, after all, human and ambitious too.

The completely gentle, infinitely forgiving, perfectly merciful Prophet who is proclaimed in Muslim writings simply never existed. The historical Muhammad bears more resemblance to the above passage from Lippman. Yet if Muslims truly believe that Muhammad was the most wonderful moral example in history, they should embrace all of his actions, not just the ones that fit in with the Christian morality that has been advanced in the West. In Islamic thought, Muhammad is the standard with which everyone else is to be compared; that is, whatever Muhammad did is, by definition, moral. If another standard of comparison is introduced, Islamic belief falls to pieces. For instance, when Muslims try so desperately to explain away Muhammad’s atrocities, they are attempting to show that Muhammad fits in with Christian moral standards. But such an attempt is absurd. Muhammad killed countless people (torturing many of them), robbed people, married thirteen women (one of them a juvenile), took part in the slave trade, and permitted women to be beaten by their husbands.[35] When he is judged by the standards laid down by Jesus, Muhammad fails miserably. "

Interestingly, the article addresses how many Muslims try to ignore the atrocities that Muhammad committed. The following is thought-provoking:

"Third, modern writings about Muhammad characteristically ignore historical facts that call Muslim views into question. When they do address such facts, they often deny the evidence, choosing instead to hold to their idealized and unrealistic portrait of Muhammad. Indeed, Muslim “explanations” of difficult passages frequently turn out to be nothing more than circular affirmations of faith in Muhammad. When faced with a concerned questioner, the debate often proceeds as follows:

Muslim: “Muhammad was the greatest moral example ever! He was so kind and tolerant! He never hurt anyone unless they were waging a war against Islam!”

Questioner: “What about all the men and women he assassinated?”

Muslim: “Muhammad couldn’t have done such things, because he’s the greatest moral example ever! Shame on his earliest and closest followers and biographers for making up a bunch of immoral stories about him!”

Questioner:“But how do we know he was the greatest moral example ever?”

Muslim:“Because of all the historical evidence!”

Questioner:“What about the historical evidence that he was sometimes a poor moral example?”

Muslim: “That evidence is all wrong!”

Questioner:“How do we know it’s wrong?”

Muslim: “Because Muhammad is the greatest moral example ever! Don’t listen to what the early Muslims said about Muhammad’s murders, tortures, robberies, etc. Just listen to what they said about his acts of kindness!”

In another thread I related a story that describes religion as a tree. The many creeds and sects were the branches and leaves.

I disagree with that because I consider different religions to be different trees in that sense. Not all trees are alike.

Those who try to understand religion by counting the leaves and branches are not getting the whole picture. To understand the whole of religion one must study the trunk, doing so you'll get an understanding and have an appreciation for all faiths.

Like studying trees, it is important to study the differences in between trees. There are many religions. Thus, there are many "trees."

Right now we are stuck on the specifics of Christians, Jews and Muslims. We are counting the leaves and branches.

How about we go from the specifics, or particulars, to the general?

So let us generalize the Muslim faith:

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in the hierarchies and angels
3. Believe in the scriptures
4. Believe in the Prophets
5. Believe in the resurrection and last judgement
6. Believe in the predetermination of good and evil

Except for some certain emphasis, I don't see how this is not nearly identical to the Christian or Jewish faith.

Muhammad contradicted in many ways both the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. The Christian faith is merely an interpretation of the prophesies/promises accounted in the Jewish faith. While many Jewish people who believe in G-d do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, it is important to note that Jesus did not command his followers to persecute or force them to believe in him. Rather, he concentrated on his followers (who were Jewish) and their faith: John 6:65-69. However, Muhammad persecuted those who did not believe his claims, once he had a powerful army to do so.

Anyways, I see no point of us arguing about which faith, Muslim or Christian, is better. Whether Mohammed was a true prophet or not. Whether he was a bad person or not... Let your opinion of him be that he is not a prophet. But please, no more slandering of each others faiths.

I am not saying that the Christian faith is "better" than Islam. I am however addressing how they are very different. While some Muslims like to say addressing the harmful things Muhammad did is "slander" this just shows the unwillingness to discuss the harm/suffering the people endured under Muhammad. Sad to say, even today some Muslims strive to silence those who tell the truth about Muhammad.

For example, let's see the case of Christina. Christina is an incredibly intelligent Atheist who I very much respect, even though I don't appreciate how sometimes I feel she mocks my belief. However, it would be UNTHINKABLE for a true follower of Jesus' teachings to want to kill her and threaten her life due to Jesus' teachings to love and his example of loving and forgiving even while dying on the cross. I personally have no desire to kill her or harm her in any way, or impede her freedom of speech though I do not appreciate it when Atheists are unkind and intolerant and mock my belief. It is fine with me though that they don't believe what I believe, and I understand that they have valid reasons for not believing. I 100% support their right to not believe and to explain why they don't believe what I do.

However, sadly some Muslims have indeed threatened her life, which does remind me and many other people how Muhammad ordered the deaths of people who criticized him. Please see the following video:

and see 5:08 especially about what a Muslim wrote this very intelligent and articulate Atheist lady.

What good does it do for any of us to sit here and contend upon who is right? We are all the children of God, are we not? Let us end it, with the words of Jesus.

Matthew 22:36

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I very much agree with Jesus' teachings to love God with all one's heart, soul, and mind, and to love one's neighbor as oneself. Loving one's neighbor includes not covering up lies about those who were hurt. Sadly, Muhammad hurt many of his "neighbors" who did not believe his claims, instead of loving them.

God bless.Praise Allah.

God bless you too Edited February 23, 2013 by BetheButterfly

February 23, 2013

It makes me appreciate the Calvary Chapel's teaching style. Instead of taking versus to illustrate a point they tend to start at Genesis 1:1 and plow straight through to Revelation 21:21. As a sister taught me, don't read versus read chapters. However even before being able to google attack versus the chapter and verse template put into the Holy Bible and other Holy books lead to what we have today, it also happens with political sound bites, where an attack sentence is taken out of context. Especially in this case of the virgin woman marrying her rapist when just sentences before women and rapist are sentenced to death for the crimes of rape and adultery.

Ahhhh yes, I consider Chuck Smith one of the great teachers of our day, that's for sure. Also in my New American Standard Bible was taught that sometimes the context of the meaning can be found halfway through one chapter and can end halfway into the next. The context verse is bolded in the beginning and then bolded where the context ends.

February 24, 2013

I can assure you that what say about Jesus commandements are present in islam, this is not my problem, the problem is that you don't know this, then saying that slavery is bad, if so, please tell me why Jesus did not say this till you discovered this issue.

Please educate yourself first:

The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament.

The regulation of slavery in the Bible, and absence of outright condemnation of it as an institution, was later used to justify slavery by its defenders. Abolitionists have also used text from the New Testament to argue for the manumission of slaves.

The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's really embarrassing that Islam is the only religion in the world that called for freeing slaves.

I also wonder why you didn't show affection towards Muhammad and early believers when he was persecuted while showing this to those who abused him (obvious biased is obvious)

Besides, i see no particular reason for rejecting this verse:

International Standard Version (©2012)

"However, if a man meets a girl who isn't engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out,

Even after all revisions, the rape standstill.

After all of that, you still invent disgraceful stories about Muhammad raping his wives, shame on you

February 25, 2013

I can assure you that what say about Jesus commandements are present in islam,

Is possessing people by one's "right hand" loving one's neighbor or enemy? The Qur'an very clearly encourages possessing people by one's right hand. Muhammad and his followers did so. This is not love.

Jesus said to love God (Matthew 22:37), love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39), love each other (John 15:12), and love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:37). He did NOT say to possess people/conquer/go to war with them and take them and their property as booty. Muhammad most definitely did NOT follow Jesus' commands.

Now, if it is unclear about what loving is, let's see what else Jesus says to do to one's enemies.

Kill them? NOPE

Possess them with one's right hand (enslave them)? NOPE

Force them to pay a bribe for their protection? NOPE

What does Jesus say to do to one's enemies? (I boldened some of Luke 6:27-37)

Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway

27 “But to you who are listening I say:

Love your enemies,

do good to those who hate you, 28

bless those who curse you,

pray for those who mistreat you.

29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also.

If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Did Muhammad do the above to his enemies? At first he did, until he grew in power. Then, his true colors came out and he started conquering his enemies which included killing and enslaving and expelling them and taking from them. This is not loving his enemies, but rather disobeying Jesus' command to love one's enemies. Some Muslims today continue to follow Muhammad's example.

The following shows the fighting nature of Muhammad, and sadly, the following is what some Muslims still believe today: (Rusulullah is a title for Muhammad).

II boldened some)

Starting on 6:20 in the video, the writing says "... Abu Ubaidah Ibn Ah Jarrah...Killed His Own Father in the Battle of Badr and We Know Umar.... Killed His Own Uncle Al As in the Battle of Badr And Mus ab Ibn Umair Killed His Own Brother in the Battle of Badr..."What is This Love That Makes A Person Kills His Own Relatives?"

Obviously it is not the Love that Jesus talks about, about loving one's neighbor as oneself, each other, and enemies!!! Jesus did not tell his followers to kill but rather to love, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who mistreat us, as well as do unto others what we would have them do unto us (Luke 6:27-31) Killing is not in the above!!!

this is not my problem, the problem is that you don't know this, then saying that slavery is bad, if so, please tell me why Jesus did not say this till you discovered this issue.
Please educate yourself first:
The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament.
The regulation of slavery in the Bible, and absence of outright condemnation of it as an institution, was later used to justify slavery by its defenders. Abolitionists have also used text from the New Testament to argue for the manumission of slaves.
The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If a person seriously considers and desires to follow Jesus' command to love, then that wipes out the possibility of enslaving them. For example, I love my friends. Would I enslave them? NO! Why? Because I love them. I am supposed to love my enemies, and by God's grace He helps me do this, although this command of Jesus to love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27-37) is against human nature. Should I enslave my enemies? NO! Enslaving a person is NOT loving that person.

What about the Golden Rule which Jesus quotes (Luke 6:31) about doing unto others what I would have them do to me? I don't want to be a slave!!! So, should I enslave others? Nope!!! It's not rocket science!!!

It's really embarrassing that Islam is the only religion in the world that called for freeing slaves.

Sadly, the Qur'an has many verses which encourage Muslims (followers of Muhammad) to posses with their "right hand" other people. Possess with one's right hand = enslave/capture.

Please see the following verses: (I boldened some.)

IslamiCity: Quran Search

4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

4:24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. "

4:25 "If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

4:36 "Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious"

16:71 "Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah. "

23:6 "Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,"

24:31 " And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

24:58 "O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

30:28 "He does propound to you a similitude from your own (experience): do ye have partners among those whom your right hands possess, to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Do ye fear them as ye fear each other? Thus do we explain the Signs in detail to a people that understand. "

33:50 "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

33:55 "There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear Allah. for Allah is Witness to all things."

70:30 "Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,"

All the verses above encourage followers of Muhammad to possess people = enslave/make captives. Now, shall we look up the verses in the Qur'an that specifically mention slavery? Sure!

2:177 "It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing."

Now, the above does show it is righteous to ransom slaves. However, I submit to you the thought.. is it not better to NOT enslave people so that they do not need to be ransomed??? It is loving to not enslave (or possess with one's right hand) in the first place!!!

2:178 "O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty"

Does this mean that if someone kills one's slave (why do they have slaves in the first place?) then one can kill the slave of the killer???

2:221 "Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise."

Why are they slaves in the first place????

4:92 "Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave,and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom."

So, killing a believer has the recompense of freeing a believing slave. Hmm. Why don't they just free all the slaves in the first place and not enslave people??? Also, why the condition that the slave has to be "believing"? Do not all people deserve freedom regardless if they believe in Muhammad's claims or not???

5:89 "Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful."

Why don't people just free their slaves out of the goodness of their heart and in love, taking into consideration Jesus' commands to love one's neighbor as oneself, each other, and enemies??? Why do they have any slaves at all???

16:75 "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not."

What?

24:33 "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"

Why do the slaves need a deed(to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum)??? They should not be slaves in the first place!!! Also, of course it's wrong to force people into prostitution!!! If one follows Jesus' commands to love, it is also wrong to enslave/make captives of people!

58:3 "But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do."

Why do they own slaves in the first pace to be freed??? Why not simply NOT enslave other people???

I also wonder why you didn't show affection towards Muhammad and early believers when he was persecuted while showing this to those who abused him (obvious biased is obvious)

I do think it was wrong that he and his followers were persecuted. Jesus' command to love one's neighbor as oneself, each other, and enemies includes doing good to people, not harm. Thus, those who persecuted Muhammad and his followers were not obeying Jesus' command to love. However, that does not give Muhammad and his followers the excuse to persecute and war and possess those people! Muhammad and his followers, when they became powerful, did not love their enemies like Jesus commanded his followers to do.

Besides, i see no particular reason for rejecting this verse:
International Standard Version (©2012)
"However, if a man meets a girl who isn't engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out,
Even after all revisions, the rape standstill.

Deuteronomy 22 (I boldened some.)

Deuteronomy 22 NIV - If you see your fellow Israelite?s ox - Bible Gateway

"25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her. 28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

First of all, death was prescribed for a rapist if the woman is engaged. Secondly, if the woman was not engaged (pledged to be married), then there was the option described in verses 28-29. Now, I personally disagree with this option, and it is very interesting that King David did not marry his daughter Tamar to Amnon, but rather that Absalom killed the rapist (Amnon).

Wise men know that raping and marrying the rape victim is not a good idea. Why? Because his in-laws will not be happy with him. In Hebrew/Jewish culture, families are very important. Most wise Jewish men themselves in jeopardy because they know that anger might motivate someone in the rape victim's family to kill him, due to the examples of Dinah's brothers killing her rapist - accounted in Genesis 34- and Absalom killing Tamar's rapist - accounted in 2 Samuel 13).

After all of that, you still invent disgraceful stories about Muhammad raping his wives, shame on you

I did not write the hadiths that tell of Muhammad consummating the marriage with a 9 year old, which nowadays is known as statutory rape, nor the hadiths concerning Muhammad's ordering the killing the male relatives of Safiya, a 17 year old Jewish girl, then later marrying her when he heard of her beauty. Most healthy women do not willingly and happily have sex with the man who ordered her male family members' death, including her father's death. Even though the hadiths do not specify she was raped, one can use one's common sense to understand how she was enslaved. She did what she had to in order to survive, but that doesn't mean she wasn't raped. The fact that she was a slave who Muhammad offered her "freedom" by marrying her, that shows she had little choice in the matter.

Interestingly, rape is not written about in the Qur'an, but as you see above, possessing with one's right hand (which is enslaving/making captives of other people), is.

About Aisha and Safiya, here is a youtube which includes some of the hadiths concerning them. Again, I did not write the hadiths. I was not alive then.

Edited February 25, 2013 by BetheButterfly

February 26, 2013

Look, i don't know who told you that demonizing islam will help christianity, you have to be fair even if you don't like islam.

I told you that Jesus commandements are present in islam

When prophet returned to meccah (his own city ) - after its people planned to assasinate him and God made them blind till he can go from his house to Medinah-, this is what happened:

The Free

The Prophet ~ stood and said, "There is no god but Allah. He has no partner. He has fulfilled His promise, granted victory to His servant and defeated the allies alone.
"People of the Quraish, Allah has purified you from the arrogance of the Period of Ignorance and its flattering with ancestry. People are descended from Adam, and Adam was created out of mud." Then he recited
{O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the most pious of you. Indeed Allah is All-Knowing,All-Aware.} (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)

The Prophet ~ placed his hands on the doorknobs and said, "What do you think I will do to you?"
They said, "Good."
One of them said, "We say it is good and believe it to be good. You are a good brother and a good nephew, though you have powerover us."
The Prophet ~ said, "I will say to you what my brother Yusuf/Joseph said: {... "No reproach shall this day be upon you, and Allah will forgive you, He is the Most Merciful of those who have mercy."} (Yusuf 12: 92) Go, you are free."

I think you need to increase your info on islam from unbiased source.

Regarding killing relatives, i think you don't know the story itself they where trying to avoid them but their fathers insisted on killing them because of the "shame" of islam in the family, besides this was exactly Jesus message: making it clear between truth & falsehood:

MATTHEW 10, VERSE 34 AND 35

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

and just a note, there is NO SINGLE AYAH IN QURAN commanding muslims to enslave anyone, it's a fact-the ayat above were about a real-life encounter that was dealt with by asking muslims to free them.

Besides you insist on using the word rape with made-up stories of raping own wife:D (even if ex-muslim did, you must follow him blindly ? BTW, most online ex-muslims are fake.

what i want you to understand is "time customs"

Betrothal at very young ages was fairly common amongst the gentry in europe as well, consummation was often deferred.

The American colonies in the 17th century have fairly widespread cases of very young marriage down to the age of seven and twelve a century ago was often the age of consent in Western societies, it still is in Japan.

You do have to remember that the odd Western concept of childhood really is a Victorian invention and marriage for most of it's history is a binding economic pact between two families it had little to do with the lovey dovey institution we have today. In Arabic societies it was and still is often the way of settling disputes and making alliances.

For example;

Prince Edward of Wales married the French king’s daughter, Isabella, who was only seven years old and Romanos II married Bertha , the daughter of the King of Italy, when she was only four years old. Richard of Shrewsbury, King Edward IV’s son, married the five year old Anne Mowbray of Norfolk

(Pope consent was a prerequisite of the time).

And remember that - according to trinitarian resources, Maryam was engaged with Joseph 90 y when she was only 12, right !!!

I think you need to know that Prophet Muhammad name was mentioned in the bible itself.

Read this:

You Have No Right to Translate Individuals’ Names!

February 26, 2013

Look, i don't know who told you that demonizing islam will help christianity, you have to be fair even if you don't like islam.

I am explaining why I believe Muhammad is a false prophet. You are free to explain why you believe he is a true prophet. I know many Muslims who believe that the Bible is corrupted. Are they then "demonizing?" the Bible?

As for Muhammad and the Qur'an, it is clear that Muhammad in his later years did not follow Jesus' commands to love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39) and love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37).

This is one of many reasons why Christians, including me, do not believe Muhammad's claims. If we did believe his claims, we'd be Muslims, not Christians.

I told you that Jesus commandements are present in islam

Please show me in the Qur'an where it states Jesus' commands of loving one's enemies? Thank you.

When prophet returned to meccah (his own city ) - after its people planned to assasinate him and God made them blind till he can go from his house to Medinah-, this is what happened:
I think you need to increase your info on islam from unbiased source.
Regarding killing relatives, i think you don't know the story itself they where trying to avoid them but their fathers insisted on killing them because of the "shame" of islam in the family, besides this was exactly Jesus message: making it clear between truth & falsehood:
MATTHEW 10, VERSE 34 AND 35
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Jesus did not order his followers to kill their relatives. Rather, he told them that they would be persecuted and sure enough, many throughout the centuries have been killed (hence the sword... sword symbolizes death by being killed) by their own relatives. For example, one of my friends is an Ex-Muslim who became a Christian. He is from Pakistan. His Dad tried to kill him TWICE. This is actually what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 10:34-35, how family will turn against and kill/try to kill their family members who follow Jesus. Now, guess how many times this ex-Muslim tried to kill his Dad? ZERO TIMES. Why? Because Jesus said to love, not hate or kill.

The Fox's Book of Martyrs lists many of followers of Jesus who suffered death because of following Jesus. Many were killed or betrayed by their own family members. Even today, followers of Jesus around the world are persecuted for believing in Jesus. If one reads all of the context of Matthew 10, one can see that Jesus is prophesying about this:

Mat 10 NIV - Jesus Sends Out the Twelve - Jesus - Bible Gateway

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[Micah 7:6]

37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

Now, did Jesus tell his followers to go kill their families? NO. Rather, he prophesied that they would be persecuted. Many have died even at the hands of their family members. However, Jesus did not tell them to kill their family members!!!

and just a note, there is NO SINGLE AYAH IN QURAN commanding muslims to enslave anyone, it's a fact-the ayat above were about a real-life encounter that was dealt with by asking muslims to free them.

Muhammad enslaved many of his enemies, and the verses that talk about "right hands possess" shows that he considered it fine for him and his followers to do, as well as marry those their "right hands possess." (See Qur'an 2:221, 4:3, 4:24-25, 16:71,16:75, 23:6, 24:31, 24:33 24:58, 33:50, 33:55, 70:30) The majority of the verses in the Qur'an about freeing one's slaves has to do with making compensation for bad things they (the masters) did. (See Qur'an 4:92, 5:89, 58:3) However, Jesus did not enslave people, but rather taught love and doing unto others what you would have them do to you(Luke 6:27-37).

Besides you insist on using the word rape with made-up stories of raping own wife:D (even if ex-muslim did, you must follow him blindly ? BTW, most online ex-muslims are fake.
what i want you to understand is "time customs"
Betrothal at very young ages was fairly common amongst the gentry in europe as well, consummation was often deferred.

The American colonies in the 17th century have fairly widespread cases of very young marriage down to the age of seven and twelve a century ago was often the age of consent in Western societies, it still is in Japan.

You do have to remember that the odd Western concept of childhood really is a Victorian invention and marriage for most of it's history is a binding economic pact between two families it had little to do with the lovey dovey institution we have today. In Arabic societies it was and still is often the way of settling disputes and making alliances.

For example;
Prince Edward of Wales married the French king’s daughter, Isabella, who was only seven years old and Romanos II married Bertha , the daughter of the King of Italy, when she was only four years old. Richard of Shrewsbury, King Edward IV’s son, married the five year old Anne Mowbray of Norfolk
(Pope consent was a prerequisite of the time).

The experiences of thousands of young girls have shown that it is harmful for young girls to be married young. While "excusable" a long time ago when done by ignorant people who did not understand the importance of human development, one would think a true prophet of God in his fifties would not be so "ignorant" as to have sex with a child of 9 years, regardless of living long time ago.

Sadly, some (though not most thankfully) Muslims follow Muhammad's example and continue to this day to statutory rape girls who even though they may have their periods, are still children.

Now, if Muhammad were simply some dude long time ago who married a child, that's sad but what is even worse is that some (though not all thankfully) of his followers want to follow his example, and that includes his example of MARRYING A CHILD!!!

And remember that - according to trinitarian resources, Maryam was engaged with Joseph 90 y when she was only 12, right !!!

Maryam (or Mary - in English)'s age is speculation. Since I believe God understands about human development and knows that a girl is not magically emotionally mature even once she gets her period at a young age, I do believe He waited till she was 16 or up to speak Jesus into her womb. However, Mary's age is not accounted.

Aisha's age however is in hadiths.

I think you need to know that Prophet Muhammad name was mentioned in the bible itself.
Read this:
You Have No Right to Translate Individuals’ Names!

About Song of Solomon, the lady in this beautiful romance describes her husband as being "altogether lovely." However, does that mean her husband is Muhammad? No lol! Many languages have similar words. English and Spanish have a word that is a name in English and an adjective in Spanish: Linda es linda means Linda is beautiful/pretty. Now, when my husband calls me "linda" does this mean that he is talking about a woman named Linda? Hell no!!! (Linda is not my name.) Rather, he is saying I am beautiful/lovely. In the same way, the lady in this beautiful romance is describing her loved one as being "altogether lovely" and is not naming him a name of some dude centuries later!

Song of Songs 5 NIV - He I have come into my garden, my - Bible Gateway

"She

10 My beloved is radiant and ruddy,

outstanding among ten thousand.

11 His head is purest gold;

his hair is wavy

and black as a raven.

12 His eyes are like doves

by the water streams,

washed in milk,

mounted like jewels.

13 His cheeks are like beds of spice

yielding perfume.

His lips are like lilies

dripping with myrrh.

14 His arms are rods of gold

set with topaz.

His body is like polished ivory

decorated with lapis lazuli.

15 His legs are pillars of marble

set on bases of pure gold.

His appearance is like Lebanon,

choice as its cedars.

16 His mouth is sweetness itself;

he is altogether lovely.

This is my beloved, this is my friend,

daughters of Jerusalem."

Now, some Muslims are desperate to try to place Muhammad in the Tanakh and Christian Bible. It's sort of funny. I think I understand the frustration of many Jewish people who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah concerning Christians claiming that Jesus is the prophet like Moses (which I believe, and which was written way before Muhammad's time) and Jesus being the Messiah and the Lamb of God and so forth. Concerning Christians and the Song of Solomon, many see this beautiful romance as an allegory concerning Christ and the church. However, most Jewish people who believe in G-d who are not Christians do not think that, same as those who are not Muslims do not think that Muhammad is in their Holy Scriptures which many Muslims say are corrupt.

Now, there are definitely Jewish people who have decided to convert to Islam same as there are Atheist Jewish people and Christian Jewish people and so on.

However, the followers of Jesus already made the claim that Jesus is the prophet like Moses, prophesied about in Deut 18 NIV - Offerings for Priests and Levites - The - Bible Gateway , through their testimonies long before Muhammad was born. Two testimonies of Jesus being the prophet like Moses are accounted in John 1:45 NIV - Philip found Nathanael and told him, - Bible Gateway and Acts 3 NIV - Peter Heals a Lame Beggar - One day - Bible Gateway

Did Muhammad take the place of Jesus as the prophet like Moses? For Christians, no. Personally, I am so grateful to God for that because I would not want to follow a man who had sex with a child and who mistreated people who criticized him by ordering their deaths, as well as conquered different cities. Jesus' life and example do not include lust and conquering cities but rather in loving people so much he died on the cross (which Muhammad denies) and rose again and even forgave those who put him on the cross. Jesus is the one I follow, though people are free to follow whoever they choose.

Unlike Muhammad who advocated killing apostates, Jesus did not but rather Jesus simply focused on his faithful followers' belief: John 6:65-69 NIV - He went on to say, ?This is why I - Bible Gateway

February 26, 2013

Attention everyone:

Due to unconditional love towards islam, God and his great Prophets

in this thread and due to absence of any lies or repeated slanders and unnecessary usage of extremely kind words, I am obligated by God orders to leave this thread,

so

this would be

my last post in this threa

d

, whenever you have any question, you will find

this site

extremely helpful and you can, of course, send me

pm

whenever you want. However i must thank

pie2

&

pureinheart

for their high-level civilized discussion and hope others will take them as example

Now, It's obvious that this thread would not be helpful to anyone in the circular manners it happened to be, as it represent what's T. Carlyl said exactly;

"Our current hypothesis about Mahomet, that he was a scheming Impostor, a Falsehood incarnate, that his religion is a mere mass of quackery and fatuity, begins really to be now untenable to any one.

The lies, which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man, are

disgraceful to ourselves only

."

Below are beneficial general information on islam for anyone interested:

Good reading: A Modern Culture of Insults !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKyS-KZb9ZU

Jesus

The Bible

Mary

The True Message of Jesus Christ

Truly & Falsely Jesus In the Bible

JESUS : A PROPHET, NOT A SON, OF GOD

Islamunveiled - free_books

Prophet Muhammad: What Most Non-Muslims Don’t Know !

All Prophets Were Muslims (christian and jews testimonies)

THE MANNERS AND CHARACTER OF MUHAMMAD IN BRIEF

50 REASONS WHY MUHAMMAD (S.A.W) IS SO GREAT

I have seen Non Muslims and others always wonder why we Muslims love and adore the final prophet (s.a.w) so much. Why does every Muslim have to follow him and what is so Great about Rasool (s.a.w) so on and so forth. Well the answer to this can never be short. It is as huge as 500 volumes of Books. But a person is known from his actions, his teachings, his principles. And i shall enlist one example per aspect of life, or say one example per topic showing the teachings of rasool (s.a.w).

50 REASONS WHY MUHAMMAD (S.A.W) IS SO GREAT | The Final Revelation

I apologize for this decision, but the environment in the thread is not helpful for any healthy discussion.

February 26, 2013

Attention everyone:
Due to unconditional love towards islam, God and his great Prophets

in this thread and due to absence of any lies or repeated slanders and unnecessary usage of extremely kind words, I am obligated by God orders to leave this thread,
so

this would be
my last post in this threa
d
, whenever you have any question, you will find
this site
extremely helpful and you can, of course, send me
pm
whenever you want. However i must thank
pie2
&
pureinheart
for their high-level civilized discussion and hope others will take them as example

Now, It's obvious that this thread would not be helpful to anyone in the circular manners it happened to be, as it represent what's T. Carlyl said exactly;

"Our current hypothesis about Mahomet, that he was a scheming Impostor, a Falsehood incarnate, that his religion is a mere mass of quackery and fatuity, begins really to be now untenable to any one.
The lies, which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man, are
disgraceful to ourselves only
."

Below are beneficial general information on islam for anyone interested:
Good reading: A Modern Culture of Insults !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKyS-KZb9ZU
Jesus
The Bible
Mary
The True Message of Jesus Christ
Truly & Falsely Jesus In the Bible
JESUS : A PROPHET, NOT A SON, OF GOD
Islamunveiled - free_books
Prophet Muhammad: What Most Non-Muslims Don’t Know !
All Prophets Were Muslims (christian and jews testimonies)
THE MANNERS AND CHARACTER OF MUHAMMAD IN BRIEF
50 REASONS WHY MUHAMMAD (S.A.W) IS SO GREAT
I have seen Non Muslims and others always wonder why we Muslims love and adore the final prophet (s.a.w) so much. Why does every Muslim have to follow him and what is so Great about Rasool (s.a.w) so on and so forth. Well the answer to this can never be short. It is as huge as 500 volumes of Books. But a person is known from his actions, his teachings, his principles. And i shall enlist one example per aspect of life, or say one example per topic showing the teachings of rasool (s.a.w).
50 REASONS WHY MUHAMMAD (S.A.W) IS SO GREAT | The Final Revelation

I apologize for this decision, but the environment in the thread is not helpful for any healthy discussion.

You do not need to apologize for your decision to leave this thread. Just because you do not agree with me and I don't agree with you does not mean that the "environment in the thread is not helpful for any healthy discussion." Rather, it just shows the differences between Christianity and Islam.

Thank you for the interesting links. However, I think it is also important to note what people who have left Islam say. Many people have left Islam nowadays, thanks to freedom of religion. Some are now Atheists. Some are Christians. Some are Agnostics, and so on.

Below are some of youtubes of ex-Muslims who are Atheists, Agnostics, and Christians who talk about their testimony and treatment in Muslim-dominated countries:

Michael Coren with muslim atheist Kacem El Ghazzali - YouTube

Indonesian ex-Muslim Atheist to be beheaded - YouTube

Ex-Muslim Christians murdered by Islamists in Turkey ! - YouTube

While horribly people who called themselves Christians have and some still do persecute/killed "heretics", "apostates" and those who don't believe like they do, that is in direct disobedience to Jesus' teachings to love people, even one's enemies: Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway Jesus did not teach his followers to persecute/kill apostates but rather focused on his faithful followers' beliefs: John 6:64-69 NIV - Yet there are some of you who do not - Bible Gateway

However, Muhammad in the Qur'an and hadiths did preach killing unbelievers (and apostates are unbelievers too). (I boldened some in the quotes below.)

IslamiCity: Quran Search (Yusuf Ali)

Qur'an 4:8"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks"

Qur'an 5:54 "O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things."

Qur'an 8:12 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Qur'an 8:65-70 "O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah. for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took. But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Qur'an 9:73-74 "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them."

Qu'ran 9:123 "O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. "

Qur'an 47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. "

And below are some hadiths concerning how Muhammad treated apostates and other unbelievers:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for

the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?"

Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers

and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and

some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,

'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?'

"Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it.

" 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:

Narrated Abu Musa:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "

He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

More hadiths of cruelty by Muhammad and his followers towards apostates, critics, and others can be found here:

Hadith Regarding Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) from Sunan Abu Dawud Hadith - أحاديث سنن أبي - Al-Kitaab an As-Sunnah :: Sahih ul-Bukhari Hadith - أحا&

This are interesting videos promoting killing apostates in Islam:"If They Had Gotten Rid Of Apostasy Punishment Islam Wouldn't Exist Today" - YouTube

Now, Jesus and his apostles/followers who walked and talked with him did not kill people, but rather healed people and told them about the Kingdom of Heaven and our Heavenly Father: God. They endured persecution but did not persecute. As Jesus said in Matthew 5: (I boldened some.)

Mat 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

"7 Blessed are the merciful,

for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,

for they will see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

So, as what this thread is about, Christianity and Islam are 2 very different religions/beliefs!!! There are very valid reasons why Christians do not accept Muhammad's claims and become Muslims (followers of Muhammad). Jesus healed people and taught them about the Kingdom of Heaven, how he fulfills the prophesies concerning him including being the Messiah, the Son of God (which fulfills 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17), and taught us about our Heavenly Father: God. Jesus died on the cross and rose again, and told his followers to tell others about him. He did NOT order them to conquer anybody. Muhammad however conquered his enemies, which is not following Jesus' command to love one's enemies, as well as denied Jesus being the Son of God, Jesus' death and resurrection. Following Jesus is very different to following Muhammad.

Edited February 26, 2013 by BetheButterfly

February 26, 2013

The following is an ex-Muslim who talks about the differences between Christianity and Islam:

February 27, 2013

Madam Butterfly seems very focused on what ex-Muslims have to say. Should we then, likewise, shape our perception of Christianity based on what its ex-members have to say about it? Would that paint an unbiased picture, do you think?

No. This is textbook confirmation bias at work.

I am not "Madam" but being called Butterfly is fine, thank you.

Actually, much of my own opinion of "Christianity" is shaped by what ex-Christians have to say. I do not want to kill them or stop them from no longer believing in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Rather, I love them and learn from them, and I have seen that many have good points as to why they choose to no longer follow Jesus. Although I disagree with many of their points because of my personal experience with God through Jesus Christ, I do respect their opinions and think Christians can learn from them.

One thing I have learned for example from ex-Christians is to be more loving. While Jesus commands his followers to love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39 NIV - And the second is like it: ?Love your - Bible Gateway), love each other (John 15:12 NIV - My command is this: Love each other as - Bible Gateway), and love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44 NIV - But I tell you, love your enemies and - Bible Gateway) and (Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway), sad to say, many Christians are guilty of not loving people, especially not loving people who are in the homosexual lifestyle. The testimonies of some ex-Christians have showed me how important it is to love people (following Jesus' commands) no matter their lifestyle and how important it is to not force people to believe what I believe.

Now, that doesn't mean that Christians should be "good little doormats" and not explain what we believe or stand up for what we believe, but it's very important for us to speak the Truth in love. Now, there are many people who don't believe that what we believe is True, same as we don't believe that what they believe is True. Personally, I am so glad that Jesus did not order his followers to kill/fight apostates or unbelievers, but rather said to love our enemies. I personally would not want to follow Jesus if he had ordered his followers to conquer people and fight people and kill apostates.

I think it's awesome Jesus said to love our neighbors and enemies, because that includes apostates (or ex-followers of Jesus) too, since most are our neighbors (not all are "enemies" thankfully)!!!

February 27, 2013

You must feel really uncomfortable reading the Old Testament, especially books like Numbers or Joshua.

You never did say whether or not you believed that they were false prophets too.

Quickjoe, how many times have I presented you with the REASON God ordered the seemingly-atrocious genocide in the land of Canaan? It was for the same reason that God sent the flood. You are not taught the truth by 95% of pastors because the truth is even harder to believe and opens up a hundred additional questions which most modern Christiabs are afraid to even consider. The reason was not merely because of evil. If that were the case, we all better get some life jackets.

Edited February 27, 2013 by M30USA

February 27, 2013

You must feel really uncomfortable reading the Old Testament, especially books like Numbers or Joshua.

I briefly addressed what troubles me about the Old Testament in post #10:

There are historic accounts in the Tanakh that trouble me personally, especially the accounts of killing. However, I have to remember that I have a different worldview than they did back then and that Jesus Christ had not come yet teaching Love and Forgiveness.

Another thing that troubles me are the animal sacrifices, but then again, I have a different worldview than they did back then, before Jesus came as the Lamb of God.

You never did say whether or not you believed that they were false prophets too.

My beliefs are focused on Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ believed the Scriptures of his people and quoted from them. Yes I believe Joshua and King David and other violent men BEFORE JESUS were true prophets. However, my beliefs are not based on their actions. Rather, my beliefs are based on Jesus' teachings and example. Most Jews and Gentiles who have followed Jesus see the difference between before Jesus and after Jesus.

Acts 10 and 15 are two my favorite passages in the Bible because it shows how the Gentiles came to be "official" believers in Jesus and his followers too along with the Jewish people who accepted him! Please note how Peter and the "circumcised believers" were surprised but happy that Gentiles could follow Jesus too!!!

Acts 10 NIV - Cornelius Calls for Peter - At Caesarea - Bible Gateway

"27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?” 30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God."

Acts 15 shows that Gentiles who believe in Jesus do not have to become Jews or follow the Law of Moses (which includes circumcision). Now, while not mentioned in this passage, it is important to follow Jesus' commands to love. Jesus' commands to love however can be done without following the harsh commands in the Law of Moses:

Acts 15 NIV - The Council at Jerusalem - Certain - Bible Gateway

(I boldened some.)

" Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return

and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,

17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,

even all the Gentiles who bear my name,

says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—

18 things known from long ago.[c]

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

As a Gentile Christian, I am not under the Law of Moses but rather I strive to follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, who I believe fulfills/completes/accomplishes the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-18 NIV - The Fulfillment of the Law - ?Do not - Bible Gateway). I believe Jesus is the "light of the Gentiles" (Isaiah 42:1-9, Isaiah 49:1-13, Luke 2:22-38, Acts 13:46-48, and Acts 26:15-23).

Edited February 27, 2013 by BetheButterfly

February 27, 2013

I'm talking to Miss Butterfly, who has repeatedly stated that true prophets don't kill or order others to be killed. So I'm interested to see how she bends this one to fit.

Please quote me where I said that true prophets do not kill or order others to be killed?

I believe Muhammad is a false prophet because he goes against Jesus' command to love one's enemies, as well as he contradicted both the Tanakh and the Christian Scriptures.

Before Jesus, it is true that some prophets killed. Both Moses and King David are examples of true prophets who killed. However, Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27-37). So, a person after Jesus who claims to be a prophet yet does not love his enemies but rather kills them is not obeying Jesus, is he/she?

That is one of the main reasons why I believe Muhammad is one of the false prophets that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24

Mat 24 NIV - The Destruction of the Temple and Signs - Bible Gateway
"4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

This thread is about Christianity and Islam, not so much Judaism and Christianity, even though Christianity is an interpretation, one could say, of promises/prophesies in Judaism, which Christians believe Jesus fulfills (such as the Lamb of God, the prophet like Moses, the Messiah - Anointed One on the throne of King David- the Messiah, son of God).

Jesus did not teach his followers to kill or hate their enemies, but rather to love them. Therefore, a person who after Jesus claims to be a prophet yet kills/orders the deaths of others shows him/herself to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing"

Jesus said the following about false prophets:

Matthew 7 NIV - Judging Others - ?Do not judge, or - Bible Gateway

"5 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

While at first Muhammad was nice to his enemies, he later began to be hostile to them and conquered many of them, killing some and expelling others and forcing others to pay a "tax" (or bribe for safety). Jesus didn't do that. Rather, Jesus submitted to death at the hands of his enemies and God rose him from the dead (which Muhammad denies). Before that, Jesus taught his followers to love others, including their enemies. Love does not equal killing!!! Tragically, some people who call themselves "Christians" have throughout the centuries disobeyed Jesus' commands to love, and have killed their enemies or persecuted them in other ways, such as in the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witch hunts, the burning of "heretics" and hurting people who did not believe the exact same as they did. This goes against Jesus' teachings to love one's enemies and neighbors.

Now, there are other false prophets who have not killed/ordered other people killed, and many call themselves "Christians." However, it is very important for followers of Jesus to truly follow him: to obey His teachings to love others, including their enemies.

I know that's not your view, but then again I'm not talking to you, and nor do I care. So kindly keep your nose out of this one, thanks.

There is no need to be rude. Since this is a public forum, anyone who wants may give their opinion or ask questions as long as they are civil and respectful.

February 27, 2013

I'm talking to Miss Butterfly

I am married; I am not a Miss but rather a Mrs.

Christianity and Islam

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