Do you think the majority of MM in affairs will EVER feel their OW is 100% worthy?

[Finally Settled]

Love doesn't conquer when it is not as valued as other things. As you said: you were selfish, or as i say: you loved your comfort more than your AP

 

And that's the point of my post, there isn't very much sincere "love" in an affair, the circumstances of defrauding and selfishness are evidence to lack of love

 

And the point of my post states there was a tremendous amount of sincere love in my relationship with my other woman. You were not involved in said relationship so I don't know how you've managed to gather your completely incorrect opinion.

 

Love doesn't conquer alone. It needs to be coupled with different things at different times in order to conquer. I would have needed some courage, integrity, and balls to have made love conquer that particular situation.

[Got it]

I think the implication is: if the AP was so intensely loved and wanted than there would be no reason to cheat. MM/MW would simply inform spouse, divorce, and the new coupling would take place.

 

Instead of this happening, the AP is oft kept hidden, found less important than financial investments, child-rearing obligations, ties to in-law, etc ____ (fill in one of the myriad of excuses) and THAT is claimed to be why divorce and monogamy is not sought. But healthy people understand: you pursue that which is most important to you. If the excuses given were SO important no risk taking behavior would happen to begin with. If the love was so strong it would be priority. The only consistency to be found between the extremes is selfishness. Ie: I want it all simultaneously so I won't commit to any singular thing and because being honest would deny me all I want, I'll defraud everyone!

 

The fact is affairs rarely end up in divorce, rarer still does the divorced AP marry the other, rarer even more does that marriage last. If there was so much intense love and respect in the air the stats simply wouldn't be so dismal.

 

And the same argument can be used for most marriages. If there was so much intense love and respect to marry why are so many divorced and why do so many have infidelity?

 

Why people are fallible stupid creatures who tend to be some what fickle in their emotions and self centered in their perspectives and priorities. Love changes with time and the person you were at 20 may not be close to the person you are at 40 and vis a vis for your partner.

 

Nowadays due to financial independence and the legality and lack of stigma towards divorce with women we have high divorce rates. I think this allow says something about marriage, about longevity and about individual happiness. And a bit about the rose tinted past. Did marriage last longer because people were just made better then or were women shackled to marriages by society and finances and now we have more freedom to choose?

[Got it]

We are wealthy.

 

Finances were not an issue in the affair.

 

He still did not leave for her.

 

Decorative, I am happy for you that you have successfully? reconciled/ing. I am happy that you have been able to turn things around.

 

But like myself, you are just one example of the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Finances are a definite factor in the decision to divorce in general. Do you want to hear you won? Is that what you are after?

[Decorative]

Decorative, I am happy for you that you have successfully? reconciled/ing. I am happy that you have been able to turn things around.

 

But like myself, you are just one example of the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Finances are a definite factor in the decision to divorce in general. Do you want to hear you won? Is that what you are after?

 

 

 

Marriage is not a competition.

 

It's telling that you would make that comment. There's no winning when someone has an affair.

[Spark1111]

Marriage is not a competition.

 

It's telling that you would make that comment. There's no winning when someone has an affair.

 

It is even more telling, when given carte Blanche....financially, emotionally,sexually,paternally, To go be with the soulmate, it is the LAST thing they seem to want...that makes you go hmmmmm.... And brings one to LS...five years ago!

[Got it]

Marriage is not a competition.

 

It's telling that you would make that comment. There's no winning when someone has an affair.

 

I don't think so either. It was how your comments have been coming across. I think I have been very clear in my previous posts re: competition.

[thefooloftheyear]

We are wealthy.

 

Finances were not an issue in the affair.

 

He still did not leave for her.

 

Im glad it worked out for you.....

 

But the reality is that your H was probably one of those that was just trolling for sex. Obviously there was something missing or he wouldnt have bothered.

 

Realize I know nothing of your situation, I am just speculating. Frankly if all is good now, I am truly happy for you.

 

But dont try and make it sound like money has nothing to do with it. While it didnt in your case, Ill bet that there are many MM that would love to leave their M and run off with the AP, but its just not logistically po$$ible,,,,

 

TFOY

[Decorative]

I don't think so either. It was how your comments have been coming across. I think I have been very clear in my previous posts re: competition.

 

Yeah. You are choosing to view my comments that way. I responded to a posited theory about affairs and marriages with my own personal experience.

 

I am not sure how that is "coming across" a certain way. It's the truth.

[Decorative]

Im glad it worked out for you.....

 

But the reality is that your H was probably one of those that was just trolling for sex. Obviously there was something missing or he wouldnt have bothered.

 

Realize I know nothing of your situation, I am just speculating. Frankly if all is good now, I am truly happy for you.

 

But dont try and make it sound like money has nothing to do with it. While it didnt in your case, Ill bet that there are many MM that would love to leave their M and run off with the AP, but its just not logistically po$$ible,,,,

 

TFOY

 

You do not know my situation. And he was not trolling for sex. That would have been easier to handle.

 

What was missing was a problem with him. Not our marriage, and not with me.

 

In my experience- most of the people with recovered marriages offered the wayward spouse the door. I know I did. I booted him.

 

They, same as my spouse, did not take it.

[thefooloftheyear]

You do not know my situation. And he was not trolling for sex. That would have been easier to handle.

 

What was missing was a problem with him. Not our marriage, and not with me.

 

In my experience- most of the people with recovered marriages offered the wayward spouse the door. I know I did. I booted him.

 

They, same as my spouse, did not take it.

 

Did you read the post? I said I didnt kow your situation..

 

Again, hats off to you and may you have many years of blissful marriage...

 

TFOY

[MissBee]

By this, I mean…most of the time, no matter how much love there is, no matter how deep the feelings go, no matter how much wanting and longing there is to really BE together, the MM does not leave his wife or existing situation.

 

So…is this because even right from the very beginning, their relationship and this person is portrayed and represented as “other” and “secondary” and “inappropriate”? And does this EVER change fully, even after years and years and even if the MM DOES end up leaving his wife to be with his OW?

 

Will she ALWAYS be the OW somewhere in his mind? Somewhere deep down, will the OW always feel lesser than what she needs because of how things started and how things were? And for those MM who DO leave their wives and marry the OW, are they more easily able to one day cheat on her with another OW because their marriage, due to the way it started with her as the “other”, is not QUITE 100% real to him somehow?

 

Just curious.

 

I'm leery of the term "worthy". I first read it and it reminded me of an email I received from a relationship website I subscribe to. I don't read the emails often anymore but I remember seeing the notification pop up and the title read: Why does somebody not being interested HAVE to be about your worth?. It reminded me sooo much of this thread and so much of the problems that plague women (and men too) in all kinds of relationships. The author noted that: "the reasons why someone does or doesn’t opt into something are about their reasons, not about confirming how you feel about you."

 

I think the A situation by it's dynamic can promote so much self-doubt, so much competition, so much winning this person away, being chosen, being "worthy" etc. In normal dating scenarios these feelings can come up as well...but it's not hard to see why they're more prevalent in a relationship which is triangulated and where someone is being asked to choose. But we should really try not to internalize people's reasons for choosing or not choosing us and shouldn't EVER speak about being "worthy" of another's attention/commitment etc. We're all "worthy" but doesn't mean everyone will see our value or choose us.

 

To the actual question about will an OW always be an OW in a MM's eyes etc. The answer varies. I am sure for some, they may very well feel that way and for others they don't. For me, I always said, I don't know if I could have truly married my AP and felt great, because of witnessing his ability to lead a double life. Maybe for some being in an A made them lose respect for their OW, rightly or wrongly, or maybe they never respected this person to begin with.

 

 

Someone else mentioned why would anyone take a risk to be with someone not worthy. I laughed out loud at that . It depends on what one means by risk...for MANY MM having As, they believe they shall never be found out so no risk is being taken in their minds. Only when the shyt hits the fan do the repercussions become real. A risk IMO is choosing to be open about the relationship and letting the chips fall where they may. Having a secret A means you believe you can lead two separate lives where the two shall never meet....and since many OW are thrown under the bus on dday...how worthy does that make one feel? Don't tie your worth to a MM having an A with you. It doesn't make you special or worthy....but for many, you're simple available. I am not disputing that some As are about love etc. I do believe if a MM actually moves forward to be with his OW relatively quickly, he thought her worth it (hate worthy..think worth it is a better choice). If not...one is still a worthy person, just not worth it to that person.

 

However, people choose As for all kinds of reasons (like people choose to date, sleep with and marry folks) and many times their reasons are bizarre and not anything to do with "worthiness" of the other but strictly about what the other provides them. I know guys who date women they would never marry...while waiting for a woman they feel is "wife material". Each person has his/her own standard for that and I think it cruel to pretend someone is a potential "candidate" if they aren't...but goes to show it is not necessarily logical that someone who is sleeping with you or even dating you feels you are "worth it" to commit to.

 

Just like some MM claim they were never were in love with their wives etc. but yet they married, had children with and did LOTS that would make this woman seem "worthy". So too it is flawed to think because someone is in an A with you it's because they love and respect you or are in love with you. Maybe. But they could also be doing it for their own reasons that have little to do with how valuable you are. Point is: don't tie your worth and worthiness to someone choosing you or not. Many times it isn't about you. Being chosen makes you no more special than not being chosen. However, date someone who chooses you fully as you choose them and not one who makes you wonder about your worth to them.

Edited February 20, 2013 by MissBee

[cocorico]

I think the implication is: if the AP was so intensely loved and wanted than there would be no reason to cheat. MM/MW would simply inform spouse, divorce, and the new coupling would take place.

 

Most of the married men I know (as in, men who are married, not men who are married and who also have a GF) take their M rather more seriously than that implies - being willing to toss it aside at the first inkling of interest in another! Nor do I know many Ws who would feel secure knowing their H would simply toss away the M if something "better" passed through his line of sight!

 

Instead, most M couples I know would first want to be really sure that it was True Love, not a passing infatuation, and that they weren't tossing away their M (for their kids' sakes, if not their own) on a whim. And the only way to find out that it really is True Love is through an A.

[beenburned]

Coco,

 

I disagree.

 

Lots of married people separate for a while in order to see if a divorce is truly what they want. I would respect my spouse's request if he came to me with honesty and truth about his feelings about our marriage.

[cocorico]

Coco,

 

I disagree.

 

Lots of married people separate for a while in order to see if a divorce is truly what they want. I would respect my spouse's request if he came to me with honesty and truth about his feelings about our marriage.

 

Fair enough.

 

My H's xW did that. It left the kids completely devastated. So he took her back when she came begging a year later. That experience severely discouraged him from pulling the same stunt.

[Spark1111]

Fair enough.

 

My H's xW did that. It left the kids completely devastated. So he took her back when she came begging a year later. That experience severely discouraged him from pulling the same stunt.

 

What was the conflict?

 

One year of separation is more than enough time to decide if one is happier with the spouse, or without.

[cocorico]

What was the conflict?

 

One year of separation is more than enough time to decide if one is happier with the spouse, or without.

 

There was no conflict - he knew he was happier without her. But she fell apart completely, and the kids were completely traumatised by the whole thing. He took her back to try to get his kids back on the rails, which he did to some extent. When they were older, more settled and more stable, he was able to broach the subject of a split with them (calmly and rationally, not violently and hysterically as she had done) and found they were in favour. So he left and D.

[HonestNeurotic]

I have to say - well - I don't think that WORTHINESS, or rather, whether or not someone judges me by such measures should be something that one should be thinking/feeling.

 

That word - WORTHY, conjures up images of say - people that will only marry people of their same status, i.e., financially, culturally, or even religious reasons. I've seen a lot of unhappy people that married for WORTHINESS. I've seen the men that really want something else, but society and other pressures had them marry this ideal of WORTHINESS.

 

Self worth! I am worthy of being loved. I take it as I can. But I cannot subscribe to the notion that I am more or less than another person. I am worthy of TRUTH. Yes, I am in an affair and love has been professed. Perhaps because I expect no changes in my day to day living arrangements, i.e., I don't want to be this man's wife or anything, it's easy for me to say that.

 

I just don't like seeing women equate themselves to having to "be" worthy to have a man love them. In an affair or single and dating. Worth is a monetary value term - "for what it's worth." "My diamond ring is worth X"

 

Pretty sure I will get slammed by MFH. Cuz I am not all remorseful, blah blah blah. I just have different ideas when it comes to sex. I don't think that having sex with more than one person is all that awful. I DO THINK that when you're raising a family, it's best to do whatever to keep that household happy and healthy. Even if there are no extramarital affairs, children need a stable and happy environment that they know that they are loved.

 

I don't think that Love = Sex most of the time. That notion has messed up many young girls minds. But we are raised that it's only "right" to have sex when you're in love.

 

I know several married men, that were it not for the restrictions that they have allowed for society to have placed on them, would not be married to the people that they are. Some use call girls, as they don't want to deal with any "relationship" forming. They just want the sex. Because of disease concerns, many turn to what's available, like, the workplace. I don't think they're evil, or that they don't fall in love, or that they feel that the AP is not "worthy".

[Spark1111]

With all due respect, I think one of the reasons you read it here all the time is because it's often very true. Your situation may not be, but there are many that are. The financial implications weren't high on my list of priorities, but they were there.

 

The post you quoted also noted things other than finances. The ramifications of divorce being what I also struggled with. As a father, husband, and businessman in my community I felt I had a very high pedestal to fall from if I left on the day it all came out. People can say it shouldn't matter, and probably it shouldn't, but it does. There were many things to think about as to why I wasn't going to leave, but a lack of love for my other woman was not one of those things.

 

At the end of your post you say money, kids, money, kids as though they are not valid reasons to remain in a marriage. I wish I had a nickel for every betrayed spouse on here who has listed those same things as reasons they did not turn their cheating spouse away upon discovering their infidelity. If the reason is valid for one, then it is valid for both.

 

I do want to reiterate that I am not condoning cheating or finding fault with the betrayed. I am trying to share thoughts from my experience and those I've befriended since.

 

I don't deny that. I have a certain empathy for SAHMs with small children. that maternal instinct is incredibly powerful, and if giving the WS another chance to preserve the clan and keep a roof over their heads, I would never judge a woman who does that.

 

but I do judge those who think so little of the ramifications of infidelity on their children, that they put their romantic interests ahead of their family's emotional well-being.

 

That's reverse gender bias in that all a man is is his paycheck. you are first and foremost a role-model, one of the most important in your child's life, and an affair teaches them to dishonesty, selfishness and conflict avoidance.

[Spark1111]

Narcissism.

 

Low self-esteem narcissists....the largest personailty-disordereddemographic represented amongst the unfaithful.

[Finally Settled]

I don't need to be in your relationship to know you didn't love your spouse enough to keep your d*ck out of OW, and you didn't love OW enough to commit to her only, rather you kept BOTH women (defrauding one and torturing the other) until you could grow the balls to love one of them more than yourself and finally be honest.

 

You originally questioned the love between a married man and the affair partner, not the married man and his wife. I responded in kind. You've taken my response to your original comment and moved it from one party to the other. I will respond to both so there is no confusion as to my position.

 

I loved my wife, but as so many hate to hear, I was not in love with her. I was madly in love with her for many years. Many things happened as the years passed and our love turned into affection and caring. I approached this subject and my lack of satisfaction with this arrangement and requested we seek help. She always made the choice not to do so and I respected it. Nothing in our lives was so bad that it caused me to want to end the relationship, but nothing ever improved. There was nothing within the marriage that presented itself as a catalyst to leave. I loved her, but I was not in love with her. I still love her now.

 

I met my other woman as a peripheral part of a circle of acquaintances. I enjoyed her, but we had nothing to do with each other to any degree for a very long time. When the friendship developed I rediscovered that feeling of being in love.

 

Herein lies the selfish portion which you refer to. I was living a very nice life with someone with whom I shared a deep bond. We shared a history and great affection, but any sign of a romantic aspect to the relationship was long gone. I'm not going to go into things I did or did not do at this point because it is not the purpose of this exchange. I am simply telling you that I loved my wife in one way and I loved my other woman in another. On one hand I had the complete comfort and safety of the familiar, and on the other hand I had the complete unknown. I was terrified of letting go of my wife and selfish enough to do whatever I had to in order to keep both. I justified myself into a pretzel. One of your statements is totally false. You say I defrauded one and I tortured the other, I disagree-I actually defrauded and tortured both. I hate that I did that to two wonderful women and I have spent a year trying to deal with it.

 

Both women are fully worthy of love from any man, but neither deserved what I did to them.

[Finally Settled]

I don't deny that. I have a certain empathy for SAHMs with small children. that maternal instinct is incredibly powerful, and if giving the WS another chance to preserve the clan and keep a roof over their heads, I would never judge a woman who does that.

 

but I do judge those who think so little of the ramifications of infidelity on their children, that they put their romantic interests ahead of their family's emotional well-being.

 

That's reverse gender bias in that all a man is is his paycheck. you are first and foremost a role-model, one of the most important in your child's life, and an affair teaches them to dishonesty, selfishness and conflict avoidance.

 

Would you judge a woman who listed comfort and familiarity as motivation to accept someone back even if they were not a stay at home mother? Do you think that a betrayed person is not entitled to use those as reasons to remain in the marriage? My point is that I had the same reasons to stay in my marriage. I am not saying I was right, but I am saying that the reasons are valid.

 

If I weren't expecting judgement from you and others I wouldn't be here. Instead of judging and defensively attacking people in my situation it might be more beneficial to actually listen to what is being said. If you have some inner need to judge me then have at it. I'll still answer every question as honestly as I can.

[Finally Settled]

For the MM saying their OW was worthy (honorable, trustworthy whatever)... Do your wives know this?

 

I can fully imagine a MM who leaves thinks his Ow is worthy - and she is worthy of him- they deserve each other. But a man who stays and harbors a long term preference and respect for his OW? I don't see that as reconciliation working.

 

And I think the point of divergence for me from those men is that they don't see what they did or what the OW did as bad, wrong, immoral, shameful, pick your word.

 

If they did then anyone involved in that (ie both APs) would be not worthy.

 

Yes my exwife does know. She knew at the time of discovery as well. I never threw my other woman under the bus. At that time I was as honest with my wife as I had been with my other woman.

 

You are completely incorrect that reconciliation won't work if feelings for the other woman remain. Men are masters at compartmentalizing and after the affair can be no different than during it. Is it true reconciliation? I beleive it can be eventually, but it means the cheating spouse has to compartmentalize to the point of burying the box his feelings are in. I wasn't able to do that long term, but many others do.

 

Nothing that I did with my other woman was wrong, but what I did to my wife by having that relationship was.

 

You have deemed me as unworthy. Gladly, I don't have a very high opinion of your unhealthy fixation with other women being the devil, so it matters very little to me.

[Finally Settled]

but you rewarded your OW for being your co-perpetrator. You didn't do anything wrong by her instead she got exactly what she wanted. Your wife, not so much.

 

So in that sense yes neither deserved what they got- one on a pedestal the other stabbed in the back.

 

I see the OW here as a co-perpetrator and equally responsible for the harm to your wife. But it's sure hard not to say that you are the most at fault as you still, after all this, revel in having replaced her. And I say that because you still say you did nothing wrong with OW. That speaks volumes.

 

TBH I'd seriously think my values were flawed if you had any respect for me. I only hope your ex wife comes to that point too.

 

I didn't reward my other woman. I tried to reconcile with my exwife, but for many reasons it didn't work. I take full responsibility that my actions in the affair created each of those reasons so I am in no way of blaming her for our failed attempts. When it was finally clear it wasn't working, and that my feelings for my other woman weren't dissipating, I made the decision to leave the marriage. I spent a year alone before I had any contact with my other woman. My decision had nothing to do with her due to years apart and a distinct lack of communication. I left hoping both my exwife and I could find better than what we were leaving. The stabbing in the back were done with the affair, not with the leaving.

 

I do not, nor have I ever revelled in replacing my exwife. That is something that is coming from you and your twisted logic. I hurt her in horrible fashion and I can NEVER make that up to her. I did not replace her. I left her and ended the marriage because I had caused so much hurt and both of us were withering and dying in it. I didn't want that fate for either of us so I made the hard decision. Finally.

 

I don't believe your values are necessarily flawed, but I do believe you have a very unhealthy fixation. Sadly, from what I've seen on these boards it's not only me who has no respect for the thoughts borne of your fixation.

[beenburned]

I think this whole disagreement over answering the original question asked:"Do MM deem their OW/FOW worthy?", is simply a matter of a difference of values/morals between the MM that had the affair.

 

If the MM was a Christian, and adultery is a major sin in his eyes(and God's),then I would expect him to feel that him and his OW were totally wrong in their behavior!

 

And if he divorces his wife to marry the OW, they both will have to face many consequences, especially within their churches. But I would feel that in this situation^^^, the MM truly loved the OW and deemed her worthy to be his new wife, even though they have many more obstacles to overcome than someone who is not religious.

 

But if the MM is not religious, he probably doesn't feel that their behavior was as bad as the example above^^^. Even if he does know their behavior was wrong,(betraying/lying to wife) that still does not affect the degree to which he judges their behavior or the OW's worthiness.

[Spark1111]

Would you judge a woman who listed comfort and familiarity as motivation to accept someone back even if they were not a stay at home mother? Do you think that a betrayed person is not entitled to use those as reasons to remain in the marriage? My point is that I had the same reasons to stay in my marriage. I am not saying I was right, but I am saying that the reasons are valid.

 

If I weren't expecting judgement from you and others I wouldn't be here. Instead of judging and defensively attacking people in my situation it might be more beneficial to actually listen to what is being said. If you have some inner need to judge me then have at it. I'll still answer every question as honestly as I can.

 

I believe the BS can do, use, whatever they want or need to keep their head from spinning off their necks like a meteor and shooting into outer space.

 

They did not solve their romantic unhappiness by having sex with another and lying about it. Period. they may never FULLY overcome the betrayal of someone they loved and trusted and were seemingly happy enough with to bear his children, create a home, and work tirelessly to preserve the family unit during all those hours you and your AP were falling in love.

 

With that being said, you did seek counseling and should have continued, as I did, with or without her. I applaud you for your efforts to reconcile and subsequently divorce and wait a year before contacting your eAP.

 

That shows maturity and restraint. However, please educate yourself to the stages of love which begin with limerance, proceed to disillusionment and end, hopefully with mature love.

 

ALL exclusive relationships will follow these stages and it would be sad for you to find yourself in exactly the same state of feeling 5 to 7 years into your next relationship.