Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by loveregardless you can believe in God and not believe in the bible. the bible is a book written by men. a good book, but so was great expectations... God is not Christian? What do you mean by that? That He doesn't believe in His own Son? Yes, man did write the bible, physically. In God's words though. Every word in the bible wouldn't be there unless God allowed it to be. Man simply wrote it down. Link to post Share on other sites
Naive Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by Moose God is not Christian? What do you mean by that? That He doesn't believe in His own Son? Yes, man did write the bible, physically. In God's words though. Every word in the bible wouldn't be there unless God allowed it to be. Man simply wrote it down. How do you know that though? Link to post Share on other sites
Naive Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by re3rocks by the way naive , ur avatar is hot! Thank you Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 hun, I was raised southern baptist, I know all about the bible, I've read it backwards to forwards, I did the vacation bible camps, I was best freinds with the preachers grandchildren, I sang on Easter sunday, believe me...I KNOW... but what I believe is not based upon what I have been told to believe, I believe what makes sense in my heart and in my head. What does not make since in my head is that any man of any religion can claim "absolute truth" over another, especially one that has only been around for 2,000 years! I have read many "books", many which have taught me wonderful things about life, and about "truth"...and you know what I have learned...you will never know the "truth", you will only come to know what is right for you to know, and what is right for you to believe...life is too much of a personal journey to be able to achieve and learn all possible by following any strict dogma, christian, muslim, jewish, etc. or otherwise... anyway...and one thing that I would really like to make all Christians stop doing is using Jesus as an excuse, Jesus never wanted to found a new religion, Jesus never wanted to be worshipped, we are all children of God!!!!!!! I am God's daughter, you are God's son and yet we are not worshipped. I believe that Jesus was a man of great faith and amazing gifts...but that is not the end of the story Have you ever heard of krishnamurti? Have you ever heard of Ghandi? Of buddah?!Or mother theresa, or any man/woman of intense faith? What makes them any less God's children?! Or anymore for that matter. OPEN your eyes to what you are not seeing.... Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Open my eyes to what I'm not seeing? What in the world are you talking about???? What I said was true, those words wouldn't be there unless God allowed it. Plain and simple. You wouldn't be here unless God allowed it. No Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, He wants His Father to be worshipped, and He wants us to know God the way God intended us to know Him. What do you mean use Jesus as an excuse? Could you clarify that one for me? Buddists, Muslims, Catholics, makes no difference. Man claims absolute truth in his own heart, I can live with that. But, you and I aren't brother or sister in Christ unless you first accept Him. I wasn't always a child of God either, I was once seperated from God until I accepted Christ. I may have been a creation of God, but was not accepted by Him until I accepted Christ. You haven't answered the original question either. What happens when we die? If you accepted Christ, what I explained happens is what my opinion and my studies have shown me. Does anyone have to agree with me? No. How do I know that the bible is the true word of God? Because it says so. That's how. I live by faith that what the bible says is truth, and that this truth came from God. Man was place in a position to record it, by God. Do you have to believe that? No you don't. But blessed are they that live by faith. Has the bible been translated, re-translated, then translated again? Sure! Does the message lose it's meaning? No. You don't need to be concerned about me not seeing something, loveregardless.....my vision is clear. And it's clear to me that you and I don't agree on some things......doesn't mean that either one of us is wrong. So please, don't assume that my eyes are closed. You have no idea. Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 is what is "truth" and that everything else is therefore "untruth" is the only thing that leads me to think that your eyes are not seeing my freind. you sounded so angry and defensive in that last post, it really saddens me to think that I have offended you...I am merely saying that you cannot say these things in anything other than "faith". And your "faith" may not be the same as my "faith", and I in no way shape or form have ever reffered to what I "believe" as "truth". Truth is something based on a fact Moose, nothing religious, spiritual, subconscious, or imagined can be "truth" because it is based on "faith" (or at best circumstantial evidence almost always subject to interpretation) and faith is not a rational choice made based on scientific research it is a "feeling" based on "faith" I could go back and forth all day with use and misuse of these words, bottom line is...I'm sorry moose, but I just don't "see" it that way...and I am sorry that you can not "see" that we are brothers and sisters of the same kind...of the human race, the race made and created by the same God regardless of circumstance, color, creed, or dogma...and for you to say that my acceptance into such a "brotherhood" is dependent on whether or not I sign a certain contract saying that I promise to believe certain things and only certain things or else hellfire and damnation to me?! is not "seeing" ...there is nothing wrong in believing in something with all of your heart and soul, there is nothing wrong with having faith Moose and I would never try to break down or diminish yours for you, but it is just that, it is "yours" and you can't tell another person what to believe or have faith in, it just doesn't work that way...there are so many hundreds of thousands of religions in the world, so many cultures who have carried on the same traditions for 10's of thousands of years, and yet you say that is not "true", but yet this new one is...it is not possible to say such a thing... and I don't know what happens when you die but I have been posting many of my different ideas and opinion since the beggining of this post if you are interested in reviewing them. I don't think it is fair to assume that I of all people would attempt to announce some sort of definite answer to such a subjective question. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Yes, we are of the same race, of the human kind.....we just aren't brother or sister in Christ if one of us hasn't trusted Him yet. And, I wasn't upset or angry at all....sorry if you got that impression, it wasn't intentional. You still haven't explained how I'm using Jesus as an excuse..... I think I've made it clear that what I believe and what you believe are up to us. It simply doesn't mean that either one of us is right or wrong. For me to say that you have to believe certain things to avoid damnation and hellfire is for me to say.......you don't have to accept it, nor do I expect you to. As for me, the way that I believe, will continue to be what I believe, and the same goes for you or anyone else on the forum for that matter. As far as you saying that you know the bible forwards and backwards, would you be so inclined to resite 2nd Timothy chapter 4 verses 3 and 4? Or at least read it......then if you can tell me that the bible doesn't adress the other books about life and truths and doesn't denounce them, maybe I'll even read one. Until then, it's well within my rights to form an opinion that those other books you read are simply fiction. Again, doesn't mean you have to believe me, or the bible for that matter. But I will. Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 anything from the bible, or the Yoga Sutra or the Kabbalah for that matter...I simply don't have the memory capacity for that kind of knowledge to be at my finger tips, but I am well aware of what point you are trying to get accross. The bible says alot of things...alot of things that I cannot accept...how about concerning the treatment of women in the bible. If you would like I could do a little research and find some specific verses in the bible that would make most women seethe with anger. thats just ONE examle...anyway...I'm not getting into a "religious" discussion with you, I have no religion to defend and I really have no desire to tell you all the things/reasons why I feel this way, because there is no way that I can do this without simultaneously attacking you and what you believe, because you identify yourself so completely with the religion in question that it cannot be discussed in such a way... I beleive that Christains are using Jesus as an excuse to discrminate and judge, and I believe that they are twisting the intent of a great man to their personal gain. I believe that Christains are eltist to say that only through believing what they believe can a person be "saved" and accepted into that "brotherhood". It is not just accepting christ as your personal lord and savior that makes you a christian, it is accepeting everything written in that book as absolute "truth". I believe that Jesus is the son of God, so I should be "in" then right. But that's not what your telling me is necessary either, there are still more rules to follow, more things to accept, more stories to believe. I don't want to discuss it like this, because there is no way I can say anything at all without it being construed as an attack. And you are saying that each of us are free to believe as we wish, on the surface this is exactly what I am trying to say in the first place...the difference is that you are still telling me that I am wrong and that you are right, I can just choose to be wrong if I wish. Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 but no more about this, like this...we aren't going to get anywhere. so what happens when you die.... then you "know" the "truth" Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 so what happens when you die.... then you "know" the "truth" Bullseye!!! Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 through different eyes, but with the same dream... Love ya, Moose! Link to post Share on other sites
tiki Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 None of us *know* what is going to happen when we die. Period. Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 eclamation point. Link to post Share on other sites
tiki Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Period! That better, love? Link to post Share on other sites
loveregardless Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 now that just about does it! too bad I'm a moron and mispelled exclamation! Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I love ya too love!!! Link to post Share on other sites
tiki Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by Moose We are the only animals that laugh, did you know that? What about the laughing hyena?! Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Tiki, that's too funny!!! Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Moose, why do you invest your faith in being the only one who's "got it right" ? I'm not being antagonistic, I'm really interested in the thought proccesses of (your kind of people) [i get the terms confused--I usually call them born-agains, but that's innacurate--Fundamentalists?] Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 dyermaker, I don't insist that I, "got it right", first off. I don't believe anyone has got it all together totally. Otherwise it wouldn't be this great of a mystery. It's just what I, believe to be truth. My way of thinking isn't any different than any other human being. I base my decisions on the information I gather through a period of time. The more proof, and the more logic I gain, the more faith I put into it. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I believe we all originated from Love, that Love is within us seeking to be expressed, and that we return to Love in its purest form after this life I believe our corporeal selves are just transmission towers and antennae; our actual selves are not corporeal but are always part of all that is I believe that God/Divine/Love has been expressed through many humans over time I believe that there are two truths which are not 'facts' per se (you can actually have a very extensive philosophical discussion about how there is no such thing as 'fact' ) because they are present in all faiths: 1 - there is a Divine 2 - we must love Some remarks in reply to some comments: God can not be in the presence of sin We are all sinners. Does that mean God is hiding from us? Who ever can enter into Heaven if God cannot be in the presence of sin? Jesus hung out with prostitutes and thieves - doesn't that mean He's not God if your theory holds? I think that the human brain is capable of every creating every occurrence that has been attributed to a diety or an alien Why can't deities and aliens exist and our small brain be too limited to understand them instead? Isn't it possible that they are normal and proper manifestations of the Universe and we little humans, albeit awash in hubris, are actually too simple-minded to truly comprehend? those words wouldn't be there unless God allowed it How does that make the Bible any more true than a text written by a neo-Nazi? How do I know that the bible is the true word of God? Because it says so. That's how. I live by faith that what the bible says is truth, and that this truth came from God. The Bible can't possibly say it's the truth because it didn't know it was going to exist. It's a collection of books written by a collection of people over time and was only cobbled together by humans relatively recently. I've been through the whole Bible and don't recall one passage that says 'this is the Bible and it has all the truth in it' I came across this quote about religion recently and quite like it: The idea that we are physical beings descended from primeval cells in nutrient soups, that idea does violence to my intuition, stomps all over it with football-shoes. The idea that we are descended from a jealous God who formed us out of dust to choose between kneel-and-praying or fires-of- damnation, that stomps me worse. Richard Bach Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 We are all sinners. Does that mean God is hiding from us? Who ever can enter into Heaven if God cannot be in the presence of sin? Jesus hung out with prostitutes and thieves - doesn't that mean He's not God if your theory holds? No God is not hiding from us....in fact, He seeks us and wants us to be with Him. Whomever accepts Jesus as their mediator, the perfect sacrifice, their saviour, enters the kingdom of Heaven. It's as if you, being the sinner, became, "Overdrawn", at the bank, you owed them tons of money that you don't have. Then you hear about this man Jesus, and you turn to Him to help. He pays the bank all the money you owe, and your slate is wiped clean. Even though you'll find yourself in debt again.....Jesus still acts as the benifactor paying your sin debt to God. This is only to those who truly accept Him. Jesus hung out with the prostitutes and thieves do show them the truth. That they are no less than the faithful. That they can inherit the kindom of God just as easy, if not more so, than that of the rich and famous. The key to His message? Believe in Him, and sin no more. How does that make the Bible any more true than a text written by a neo-Nazi? God didn't call the neo-nazi to write text. The Bible can't possibly say it's the truth because it didn't know it was going to exist. It's a collection of books written by a collection of people over time and was only cobbled together by humans relatively recently. I've been through the whole Bible and don't recall one passage that says 'this is the Bible and it has all the truth in it' It's not the Bible speaking for itself.....it's the word of God, you're not going to find a passage that says the Bible has all the truth in it. But it does say that the words in it are truth. A few examples: John 14:6, and 17:17 and Eph. 4:14 and 15. Link to post Share on other sites
Papillon Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Originally posted by Touch_of_Naughtiness What do you think happens when you die? You are gone forever? You reincarnate? You go to heaven? etc. I am soooooo confused when it comes to this topic and I want to see if some of you think like I do. I'll tell ya exactly what happens. Some creepy dude at the funderal home, with pockmarks in his face, buck teeth, and a permanent red formaldehyde glare, is gonna undress you, check out your package(s) (and if you're a woman, pointlessly speculate), and then he's gonna rearrange your face with play-do, sew your eyelids shut, and make up the whole lot with cheap sidewalk cosmetics. He's then gonna dress you in a tacky dress or suit, 20 years out of style, and manhandle your semi-stiff limbs into a shiny box your next of kin payed dearly for. At the service, people you haven't seen for years, who haven't talked to you for years, are gonna show up, smartly dressed up in their Neo/Trinity outfits, and pretend how close you were. People you hate are gonna say nice things about you, then leave quietly so they won't miss their favourite soap on TV. There's gonna be a long spiel about the great person you were, and how you did this and that and whatnot (wait till they discover the gay animal porn on your laptop). After the service, everyone is gonna RUSH to pile into their cars, so they can be first out the parking lot, just so they can crawl along at a snails's pace behind the hearse, all the way to the cemetary. Everyone switches on their lights. Damn, people, I know it's a dark day, and I know you miss me, but it's not THAT DARK Every intersection, people are gonna stop and stare (WTF is it with people rubbernecking when there's a dead guy on the road?) A priest, or minister, or rabbi, or whoever, who's god you might actually even reject outright, is gonna read a couple of lines he got from his online "Eulogy Generator" that morning. When it's finally over, people are gonna dump handfuls of sand on the casket. For christ's sake people, can't a guy get some god damned rest? Do you have to make that bloody racket on the casket? Dump in some beer or something, instead. Jeez. The ancient egyptians had it down pat. When it's done, and everybody went home, the unscrupulous funeral people dump your carcass into a cheap plywood thing and keep the shiny box for the next sucker. Then, as Kevin said, worms eat your face. THE END. Link to post Share on other sites
tokyo Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Papillon, You are such an incredible cynic!! (OK, I did laugh I don´t know anybody who´s dead, so it sounds funny, otherwise, who knows.... ) Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 I think that when you die, you die. That means that you, the individual, are gone forever. Even with cloning, there is no way a person could be replaced. The experiences that a person has shape that person in ways we will never be able to understand. You could have the same DNA and still end up an entirely different person. I think there's the physiological aspect to life. That is, we breathe. We take in oxygen, we breathe out CO2. We have a heart beat and brain waves, cell life and cell death. But there's also the more abstract aspect to life - that which is in our head. Our experiences are our own, but we communicate our values, our emotions and so many other things to others around us. Our experiences influence the experience of others. Even when we die, a part of our experience lives on in other people. My belief in the afterlife is similar to those held by Jews: as long as someone is around to remember you or talk about you, you are alive. When we die, our body breaks down and dissipates into the environment around us. We are recycled by mother earth. But our legacy and our influence in some way, survives long, long after we are deceased. Link to post Share on other sites
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