Work issues, excessive altruism? :(

[Els]

The bf typically works 70 hour weeks in his residency training programme, but recently it's been more than that. Something like 80-90 hours a week.

 

He'd been working for 12 days straight, and we were both hoping to get a nice weekend in this weekend. Well, we got Friday night and Saturday... then on Saturday morning his boss called in desperately needing an emergency doctor for Sunday and he said, "Okay, I'll do it." This is a 16-hour shift and he will not have any break til next Friday.

 

Now, before some of you jump on my case - no, this isn't about me. I'm sad that we won't have a proper weekend together again, but I can handle it. I'm a big girl, I have hobbies and studies and friends.

 

He, on the other hand, was morose, depressed and grumpy for the rest of the day. I can totally understand why - I'd be strangling kittens if it were me (okay, not really, just a figure of speech, please don't derail my thread for animal rights, I love kittens)! But the thing is, I wouldn't have said 'yes' if they called me up.

 

I feel like he's making all these work decisions that are impacting negatively on his personal health and well-being. It isn't even about the money - he does not do any extra shifts solely for money and I have always told him that I'd rather he not do them - but about the fact that he feels he can't say no when he is needed. He cares about the patients and doesn't want them to suffer if nobody takes up the call. But he's doing it at great expense of his own. Expense that he often cannot handle.

 

I feel helpless and frustrated watching this. It's a bit of a pickle, because his caring and selfless nature is what I love in him to begin with, but I feel that he has to draw a line when it starts impacting his personal life and mental health, and he feels that the lives of other people go above that. "Who's going to take care of them when you fall ill and can't?" I ask him. "Well, then they'll just die. I have to try," is his miserable answer.

 

This is taking a toll on us because even though he is never violent or takes out his depression on me, he says things when depressed that are hurtful. He apologizes for his short temper later, but it doesn't change the fact that it happens - I can't un-hear them and magically forget them. And it only happens when he is severely overworked.

[Els]

Yeah, I would have told him that if it had been money, or fame, or power that he's after. But how do you argue with peoples' lives? Should you? :/

[xxoo]

Why has the work load suddenly changed? Is the change permanent?

 

If it is temporary, and others are working just as hard, I can completely understand "doing his part" even if it is very difficult. My focus would be on making sure it is temporary--seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. What is the reason they are suddenly so short-staffed?

[Els]

They have always been short-staffed, just more short-staffed in certain places/departments. He is put on rotation every few months as part of his training programme, so some places are worse than others. This has been the worst so far.

 

Resident docs generally always have it bad though. Docs don't train forever, but it takes several years (7-10) to get to the comfy armchair.

 

I agree with seeing it as a temporary issue. I was just wondering if there was anything either of us can do to ease the problem, as it is not THAT temporary - it will fluctuate in severity but still be present for the next decade or so. There are docs who do get married and even have kids, so I'm wondering how they manage it.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Elswyth

[xxoo]

Residents are known to be overworked. Is it possible that, as a resident, he doesn't feel he has the right to say no?

[Els]

Perhaps partly so. Mostly I think it's just the altruism. He genuinely cares about the patients and can't stand the thought of them getting worse if nobody picks up the load.

[Ladybugz]

why do you espect us to jump on you thinking its about you while we barelly read your topic/?

 

it makes me want to jump on you now. lol

 

and i dont know but isnt it so that a doctor is kind like a firemen?

they can call you every minute to come in when there is emergency?

 

anyway every human need rest.

so i think he need to take some time and choose at least one day he dont go to work.

there is more then one doctor so he dont have to do it all

 

and at the end you made it about you 2. so

i guess thats also a reason you posted this.

 

have a convo with him and make days or daytimes that the phone would be off and he

can have some alone time and time with you.

 

with very small letter i want to say this also:

that many people that work a lot often do it to escape a certain thing in their life.(maybe issues at home, some thoughts etc)

and some just dont know how to say no.

[Els]

why do you espect us to jump on you thinking its about you while we barelly read your topic/?

 

Habit. I've been on LS for a while. Seen quite a few doozies.

 

it makes me want to jump on you now. lol

 

and i dont know but isnt it so that a doctor is kind like a firemen?

they can call you every minute to come in when there is emergency?

 

anyway every human need rest.

so i think he need to take some time and choose at least one day he dont go to work.

there is more then one doctor so he dont have to do it all

 

and at the end you made it about you 2. so

i guess thats also a reason you posted this.

 

have a convo with him and make days or daytimes that the phone would be off and he

can have some alone time and time with you.

 

with very small letter i want to say this also:

that many people that work a lot often do it to escape a certain thing in their life.(maybe issues at home, some thoughts etc)

and some just dont know how to say no.

 

It's easy to say this, but how do you counter the fact that there are human lives at stake? And other doctors have taken the other days, they don't call the same doc for emergencies all the time. If they did, he would be working 365 days a year...

 

Choosing one day a week is also easy to say, but not possible when you have been rostered for all the days. If you don't go or play sick, some other poor sod is going to get called when he's out with his girlfriend on Saturday...

Edited February 23, 2013 by Elswyth

[TaraMaiden]

Elswyth, your BF needs to be able to evaluate the situation more dispassionately.

 

He needs to consider whether his working will be better for his career prospects and patients, or whether people are calling him to help out - because they know he can't say 'no'.

 

I used to do this with a company I worked at, when I was younger.....

 

I ended up getting the old "Oh, thank you so much, you're fantastic, a real brick! I knew I could count on you - I asked the others but nobody else could do it...."

 

..........And then, of course, I discovered that the reason why 'nobody else could do it' was because either nobody else had even been asked - or if they were, those asked came back and said, "Ask *TaraMaiden* to do it, she won't mind....."

 

So your BF needs to ascertain whether he really, truly is indispensable - or being taken for a mug.

 

First and foremost.

 

Then he needs to learn how to say 'No'.

 

I don't know about there, but the divorce rate amongst those in the Medical profession here, is quite high, and primarily because the couple have 'irretrievably grown apart'.....

You'll also find that many of those in the medical profession, look to marry a partner who is ALSO in a medical profession. Like attracts like, and there is a degree of comprehension and sympathy there, that those outside the profession find difficult to generate.

 

Your partner needs to know that nobody ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.....

[Els]

Elswyth, your BF needs to be able to evaluate the situation more dispassionately.

 

He needs to consider whether his working will be better for his career prospects and patients, or whether people are calling him to help out - because they know he can't say 'no'.

 

I used to do this with a company I worked at, when I was younger.....

 

I ended up getting the old "Oh, thank you so much, you're fantastic, a real brick! I knew I could count on you - I asked the others but nobody else could do it...."

 

..........And then, of course, I discovered that the reason why 'nobody else could do it' was because either nobody else had even been asked - or if they were, those asked came back and said, "Ask *TaraMaiden* to do it, she won't mind....."

 

So your BF needs to ascertain whether he really, truly is indispensable - or being taken for a mug.

 

First and foremost.

 

Thanks, Tara. I actually do suspect this a bit of the time.

 

But the problem, I guess, now that I realize it, is that this was only the straw that broke the camel's back. He doesn't get called in that often - maybe once a month, and I know for a fact that the others get called in too. The rest of the time it's his actual roster. The roster is absolutely awful. There are 3 house officers running the ward, and they need two of them to be on simultaneously during weekday daytimes for ward rounds and admissions. 1 does the classic 8-hour job (assuming he's very quick and can finish his work within 8 hours), 1 does the 16-hour shift, and 1 does the night time. On weekends, they need 2 out of 3, 1 for night and 1 for 16-hour day.

 

So that ends up with the average HO getting 1/3 weekends free, and about 2-3 16-hour shifts a week. Coupled with the fact that even on the classic 8-hour job not everyone can finish their work on time. Sometimes they get a relief or locum doc (or just a very enthusiastic HO who loves doing extra shifts for $$) and people can get a bit of time off.

 

Then he needs to learn how to say 'No'.

 

So in this context, do you think I need to put focus on saying 'no'? How do I make that decision for him? Should I?

 

I don't know about there, but the divorce rate amongst those in the Medical profession here, is quite high, and primarily because the couple have 'irretrievably grown apart'.....

You'll also find that many of those in the medical profession, look to marry a partner who is ALSO in a medical profession. Like attracts like, and there is a degree of comprehension and sympathy there, that those outside the profession find difficult to generate.

 

Your partner needs to know that nobody ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.....

 

I heard about this too, and wondered how it works out. I'd think it'd make things worse if both were residents. Bf works about half of the weekends, but at least the other half we get to spend together. If I was also working half, and our halves didn't overlap... we'd be screwed, wouldn't we?

 

Divorce rates are definitely high in the medical profession, I think, regardless of whether they are both docs or not.

[Els]

So, concluding before I hit the sack:

 

I'll keep in mind that this is a temporary thing, as xxoo suggested. Just a few weeks more to a new rotation, so hopefully that'll be better. The previous 2 years' worth of rotations were bad compared to normal jobs (hence the 70 hr weeks), but we were generally happy because he was able to cope with that. He also amazingly managed to spend enough time with me despite the crazy work hours, so that was not an issue. Guess 90 hours is where he hits breaking point. I suppose that is something that we can deal with if/when it happens again?

 

As per TaraMaiden's suggestion, I'll talk to him the next time he gets called in. He generally ignores general SMSes asking anybody if they wanted extra duty, though, and this was one of the few times his boss called him in person and he accepted. So we'll see if it becomes a recurrent issue.

 

His altruism does cost him also in that he does not leave the ward until he's sure that everyone is adequately taken care of, instead of dumping everything onto the night time dude. I'm not sure if I should encourage him not to do that though.

[Crusoe]

A fella's perspective.

 

Things like this are often just part of life that you must struggle on through. They're usually temporary and sometimes saying "no" to work just isn't a good option.

 

I can remember when I was having to put in those sort of hours. It's not something I wanted to do but I had responsibilities I couldn't ignore, and I wasn't even healing people or saving lives. I knew it was taking its toll on me and I knew my ex wasn't happy about the situation but there was nothing I could do, the work had to be done.

 

Things started turning sour when she started insisting I say "no" to work, because I couldn't and I eventually got very tired of having to try and explain it. From my perspective, I always knew it was a temporary situation, I always knew once the workload eased off I would be back to my usual self and all I wanted was to be given some space and time to relax, recuperate and recover whilst I wasn't working, but she never gave me that. What she did was seek advice from girlfriends and her Mother who decided I had all sorts of things wrong with me. That led her to acting like a demanding, controling, nag, and all it did was make me even more tired and run down.

 

Now I'm not even hinting or suggesting you nag, nor hinting or suggesting you don't already support and care for your man, but I am suggesting you are careful about focusing on him saying "no" or making that decision for him.

 

If I were you I would pick a time when he isn't tired or busy (and that includes the next time he's called in as he will likely switch to work mode immediately) and talk to him. If he says there is no way to avoid it at the moment, then that's pretty much the way it's going to be for a while.

 

Rights and wrongs of things aside, sometimes you give a little, sometimes you take a little. Throughout a long term relationship it's not going to be 50/50 all the time. This sounds like a situation where you might have to give a little more than him for a while, next time it might be him giving more than you.

[Els]

TaraMaiden - I just wanted you to know I read your previous post before it was gone, and I appreciate it.

 

I was feeling a little emotional, because I'm not good at handling disappointment. It's silly because we just had a great Friday night, he was a trooper and insisted on taking me out for a date and making sure I had a good time even though he'd had only 4 hours of sleep the previous night. I guess we were both just really psyched up for the weekend and the news took its toll on both of us and neither of us handled it well.

 

A fella's perspective.

 

Things like this are often just part of life that you must struggle on through. They're usually temporary and sometimes saying "no" to work just isn't a good option.

 

I can remember when I was having to put in those sort of hours. It's not something I wanted to do but I had responsibilities I couldn't ignore, and I wasn't even healing people or saving lives. I knew it was taking its toll on me and I knew my ex wasn't happy about the situation but there was nothing I could do, the work had to be done.

 

Things started turning sour when she started insisting I say "no" to work, because I couldn't and I eventually got very tired of having to try and explain it. From my perspective, I always knew it was a temporary situation, I always knew once the workload eased off I would be back to my usual self and all I wanted was to be given some space and time to relax, recuperate and recover whilst I wasn't working, but she never gave me that. What she did was seek advice from girlfriends and her Mother who decided I had all sorts of things wrong with me. That led her to acting like a demanding, controling, nag, and all it did was make me even more tired and run down.

 

Now I'm not even hinting or suggesting you nag, nor hinting or suggesting you don't already support and care for your man, but I am suggesting you are careful about focusing on him saying "no" or making that decision for him.

 

If I were you I would pick a time when he isn't tired or busy (and that includes the next time he's called in as he will likely switch to work mode immediately) and talk to him. If he says there is no way to avoid it at the moment, then that's pretty much the way it's going to be for a while.

 

Rights and wrongs of things aside, sometimes you give a little, sometimes you take a little. Throughout a long term relationship it's not going to be 50/50 all the time. This sounds like a situation where you might have to give a little more than him for a while, next time it might be him giving more than you.

 

Thanks for your insight, Crusoe. I definitely agree, especially with your last paragraph. Especially since this is a guy who loves to give in relationships, expects very little, and never demands anything. The least I can do is to be understanding.

 

While the hours are hard on me, though, that isn't my main issue. He spends adequate time with me despite the hours anyway, more than I've seen other couples who work less spend together. The issue is how he is coping with it, my worry for his personal health, and how it affects his demeanor.

 

How did you cope with the toll the stress took on your mood when you were working those hours?

[xxoo]

Els, this thread has me thinking back to when our youngest was a baby, I was home with kids 12+ hour days with no help, and he was working 2 jobs to simply pay the bills. It was a tough year.

 

One of our funniest (in retrospect) fights ever came out of that year, because it was SO ridiculous, and simply born out of mutual frustration and exhaustion. No one got mean, but it did get loud, and it was over an item of clothing of all things! And not even an expensive item.

 

Mostly, I worked to make his time at home as relaxing as possible. I didn't want him to need to lift a finger at home. Having kids, that wasn't always possible--but it was my goal.

 

We also took about 2 hours for ourselves on the weekend--individually. Seems odd, because our time together was already so limited, but our time together was also with our kids, so not exactly a break. On a day off, he'd go do something for about 2 hours, then I would, then we'd have a family dinner. If he isn't getting "me time", that could affect his coping, too. You have to fill up your own reservoir before you can give to others--including your mate and kids.

[Crusoe]

How did you cope with the toll the stress took on your mood when you were working those hours?

 

At work, switch head off, block it out, go on autopilot and keep on going.

 

At home, what I call beer and cartoon time. It varies from fella to fella. For me that's a couple of tinnies whilst listening to the cricket (or watching cartoons ). For another it might be playing a computer game, or watching the footie, or a pint and game of pool down the pub, for my old man it's mowing the lawn. Anything that allows you to relax, de-stress and tune out. If we're allowed that, we usually reappear our happy old selves a little while later. If we're not allowed it autopilot can stay on, and that's when we can seem cold, distant and grumpy.

 

.

[tbf]

Major props to your SO. He's doing it for all the right reasons but has to learn to balance. Not much you can do for him besides support him in his learning.

 

If you try to change or fix him, this puts additional stress and guilt onto him. Let him handle it until he can't.

[Els]

We also took about 2 hours for ourselves on the weekend--individually. Seems odd, because our time together was already so limited, but our time together was also with our kids, so not exactly a break. On a day off, he'd go do something for about 2 hours, then I would, then we'd have a family dinner. If he isn't getting "me time", that could affect his coping, too. You have to fill up your own reservoir before you can give to others--including your mate and kids.

 

Hey, good point. I recall reading some article by a wife of a very successful startup CEO, where one of her advice for coping with a partner with high work stress level is to insist that they take some time to themselves, even if they want to fill their time off with time with the family.

 

I suppose I could apply that, although it'd be really difficult. I don't ever pressure him - if he says, "I'm too tired to go out today", I always tell him it's not a problem. But I think sometimes he is tired but he takes me out because he feels bad that he doesn't do it enough. It's tough to balance that, I think. On the one hand, I acknowledge what you're saying; on the other, I'm not sure that I would be happy if our together-time was cut down on even further.

 

At home, what I call beer and cartoon time. It varies from fella to fella. For me that's a couple of tinnies whilst listening to the cricket (or watching cartoons ). For another it might be playing a computer game, or watching the footie, or a pint and game of pool down the pub, for my old man it's mowing the lawn. Anything that allows you to relax, de-stress and tune out. If we're allowed that, we usually reappear our happy old selves a little while later. If we're not allowed it autopilot can stay on, and that's when we can seem cold, distant and grumpy.

 

.

 

Gotcha. I don't usually have a problem with that unless there is no reappearing for a while. But for instance, if your wife hopped onto the couch with you and just watched cartoons with you, would you consider that to be me-time as well?

 

We usually play computer games together on weekday nights (though he plays on his own sometimes when I'm busy). This isn't some sort of ploy by me - I genuinely enjoy it and have been playing since before I met him, it's how we met. But I'm wondering if it, uh, slows the recharge meter by doing so.

 

Major props to your SO. He's doing it for all the right reasons but has to learn to balance. Not much you can do for him besides support him in his learning.

 

If you try to change or fix him, this puts additional stress and guilt onto him. Let him handle it until he can't.

 

Noted, thanks.

[todreaminblue]

The bf typically works 70 hour weeks in his residency training programme, but recently it's been more than that. Something like 80-90 hours a week.

 

He'd been working for 12 days straight, and we were both hoping to get a nice weekend in this weekend. Well, we got Friday night and Saturday... then on Saturday morning his boss called in desperately needing an emergency doctor for Sunday and he said, "Okay, I'll do it." This is a 16-hour shift and he will not have any break til next Friday.

 

Now, before some of you jump on my case - no, this isn't about me. I'm sad that we won't have a proper weekend together again, but I can handle it. I'm a big girl, I have hobbies and studies and friends.

 

He, on the other hand, was morose, depressed and grumpy for the rest of the day. I can totally understand why - I'd be strangling kittens if it were me (okay, not really, just a figure of speech, please don't derail my thread for animal rights, I love kittens)! But the thing is, I wouldn't have said 'yes' if they called me up.

 

I feel like he's making all these work decisions that are impacting negatively on his personal health and well-being. It isn't even about the money - he does not do any extra shifts solely for money and I have always told him that I'd rather he not do them - but about the fact that he feels he can't say no when he is needed. He cares about the patients and doesn't want them to suffer if nobody takes up the call. But he's doing it at great expense of his own. Expense that he often cannot handle.

 

I feel helpless and frustrated watching this. It's a bit of a pickle, because his caring and selfless nature is what I love in him to begin with, but I feel that he has to draw a line when it starts impacting his personal life and mental health, and he feels that the lives of other people go above that. "Who's going to take care of them when you fall ill and can't?" I ask him. "Well, then they'll just die. I have to try," is his miserable answer.

 

This is taking a toll on us because even though he is never violent or takes out his depression on me, he says things when depressed that are hurtful. He apologizes for his short temper later, but it doesn't change the fact that it happens - I can't un-hear them and magically forget them. And it only happens when he is severely overworked.

 

 

altruism is hard to turn off, if it is in you, you have it, cant be learned, it is a part of your make up.......in my opinion....if it doesnt come from the heart it isnt altruism so thats why it is hard to turn off......its a feeling, a way of being......you do need to be open and honest with your partner and altruism also extends to a relationship........he needs to introduce a balance and thats hard to can be done, saying no is a problem when you are selfless...so you should be able to talk it out.....hewill be the same way with you.....i hope...... and I wish you the best...deb

[tbf]

Noted, thanks.

H and I went through this when he overextended himself, trying to be everything to everyone. He tried to be a managing partner while still taking on caseloads and helping others with theirs when things got too hairy for them. What I did was to try to give him as much support as possible on the home front until he finally realized that something had to go, that he wasn't superman. So he reshuffled his priorities and found a reasonable balance for himself.

 

Had I pressured him at that point, our marriage would have fractured.

[Els]

altruism is hard to turn off, if it is in you, you have it, cant be learned, it is a part of your make up.......in my opinion....if it doesnt come from the heart it isnt altruism so thats why it is hard to turn off......its a feeling, a way of being......you do need to be open and honest with your partner and altruism also extends to a relationship........he needs to introduce a balance and thats hard to can be done, saying no is a problem when you are selfless...so you should be able to talk it out.....hewill be the same way with you.....i hope...... and I wish you the best...deb

 

Thanks, deb!

 

H and I went through this when he overextended himself, trying to be everything to everyone. He tried to be a managing partner while still taking on caseloads and helping others with theirs when things got too hairy for them. What I did was to try to give him as much support as possible on the home front until he finally realized that something had to go, that he wasn't superman. So he reshuffled his priorities and found a reasonable balance for himself.

 

Had I pressured him at that point, our marriage would have fractured.

 

Yeah, I totally get you. I don't see how pressure of any kind would help someone in that situation. That's why I wrote off the suggestion someone made about telling him to take one day off a week. I mean, if he could have done so, he sure as hell would have already without me telling him to!

[Crusoe]

Gotcha. I don't usually have a problem with that unless there is no reappearing for a while. But for instance, if your wife hopped onto the couch with you and just watched cartoons with you, would you consider that to be me-time as well?

 

 

I'm on the introvert side of things so no, if that tired, stressed and in need of unwinding and recharging, me-time is solitude. Maybe the same for your fella?

 

Don't get me wrong, I never minded my ex next to me, but at some point I still needed that alone time, otherwise I never fully unwound and recharged.

[EasyHeart]

He's paying his dues.

 

When I was starting out, I was always the first person to volunteer for weekend emergencies or out of town trips because I wanted the experience. It also earned me a reputation as someone who can be counted on. As a result, a few year later I was the first person people thought about for the plum assignments. The guys who said, "Sorry, I don't work weekends" or "My wife doesn't like me to travel" either washed out or got shunted to less important departments and projects.

 

If you're going to date (or marry) a professional, you're going to have to accept that he's always going to work very hard for very long hours. Things will get more manageable in 10 years, but he'll still work more than most people. The fantasy of doctors and lawyers relaxing in big leather chairs or playing golf all day is long gone (and I doubt it was ever real). Nowadays, the only thing that matters is their production.

[xxoo]

I suppose I could apply that, although it'd be really difficult. I don't ever pressure him - if he says, "I'm too tired to go out today", I always tell him it's not a problem. But I think sometimes he is tired but he takes me out because he feels bad that he doesn't do it enough. It's tough to balance that, I think. On the one hand, I acknowledge what you're saying; on the other, I'm not sure that I would be happy if our together-time was cut down on even further.

 

Spending time together and taking you out are two separate things. You could keep the former while cutting way back on the latter.

 

Does he make time for exercise or meditation? Those activities lend themselves to solitary time, and are extremely good coping tools. If your time together were higher quality (he was in a better mood), it might offset a small reduction in quantity.

[Els]

Easyheart: I certainly had never expected a relationship with a health professional to be easy. A substantial portion of my social circle are docs (or were med students back when I knew them), so I was well aware of the true lives most doctors live before going into the R. I have to say it's still way, way, way easier than the previous LDR portion of our R.

 

At any rate, thanks for all the help, guys. I think the worst should be over now, he seemed to be back to normal after he got back last night (the anticipation is worse than the actual work, apparently! ), next weekend is free, and new rota starts in a couple weeks, so hopefully we're out of the storm at this point. If it picks up again, I'll do as you guys suggested.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Elswyth