The death penalty

[BetheButterfly]

What are your thoughts on the death penalty in America today?

 

I'm cold. Brrr. Sorry, that doesn't have anything to do with the death penalty but rather is affecting my ability to type.

 

The death penalty is a tough question and Christians have diverse views on it. I personally believe that while it really depends on the case, I lean towards no death penalty but rather life imprisonment with counseling for the killer.

 

I do think that a murderer deserves death. Jesus said "Do to others as you would have them do to you." - Luke 6:31 NIV - Do to others as you would have them do - Bible Gateway

 

 

Doing unto others what you would have them do unto you rules out insulting them, as well as rules out enslaving people, killing people, torturing, raping, stealing, since most sane people would not want those things to be done to them.

 

I had to scold one of my nephews today because he called his little brother "stupid." I asked him, "Would you like him to call you stupid?" He shook his head and said no. "Would you like me to call you stupid?" He again shook his head no. "Do you think he likes for you to call him stupid?" Nope.

 

I told him both he and his brother, as well as the rest of his siblings, are all smart. None of them are stupid and that they all need to protect each other, not hurt each other with their words. He apologized to his brother and said he "will try to be nice." His consequence for his action was a time-out which included a lecture from me, and no computer games tomorrow.

 

I didn't call him "stupid" for calling his little brother stupid. That would have only hurt him, not helped him become a kinder and better brother.

 

Killing however is of course much more serious and destructive (obviously) than calling a person a rude adjective. While I understand the logic behind the death penalty for murderers, I think it's important to evaluate each case and how that person arrived to the point of a murderer. Usually, a murderer murders due to hate, greed, lust, selfishness, and/or desire for power in his/her soul. What that person needs is a cure for what is poisoning his/her soul in such a way that causes that person to destroy others as he/she self-destructs. I don't think killing a killer helps heal their soul from the poison eating it. So, I think imprisonment with counseling is important for that person, if we care for that person. I think it's important for people in a healthy society/community to care for each other.

 

Now, I also think it's extremely important to protect people from killers, which is why I think life imprisonment is reasonable for a person who has mortally destroyed another person's life.

 

What do you think? It's a really difficult topic!

Edited March 2, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[Mme. Chaucer]

I am against the death penalty on many grounds. First, I think it's immoral.

 

Secondly, I think that there is always a margin of error, which has been proven quite a few times now that DNA evidence is available, and some condemned people have been exonerated.

 

It's not a deterrent. I doubt that a single criminal has held themselves back for fear of getting the one way ticket to paradise.

 

Finally, we are all human beings and even with the carful balances of our judicial system in place, justice is not meted out equally to all. Those who can afford top tier lawyers get away with a lot more than poor people; nonwhite people are executed at a HUGELY higher rate than whites who commit the same crimes, and men FAR more than women.

 

We can't administer the death penalty fairly, even if it were moral. We shouldn't be punishing people by taking their lives.

[BetheButterfly]

I am against the death penalty on many grounds. First, I think it's immoral.

 

I think it's unloving, and yeah, immoral due to being unloving.

 

Secondly, I think that there is always a margin of error, which has been proven quite a few times now that DNA evidence is available, and some condemned people have been exonerated.

 

Extremely important point. I wonder how many people have been falsely accused of a crime and yet murdered for what they didn't do? :(

It's not a deterrent. I doubt that a single criminal has held themselves back for fear of getting the one way ticket to paradise.

 

For people who believe Paradise is waiting for them when they die, being killed does not faze them in the least lol... just brings them, in their minds, closer to their goal.

 

Finally, we are all human beings and even with the carful balances of our judicial system in place, justice is not meted out equally to all. Those who can afford top tier lawyers get away with a lot more than poor people; nonwhite people are executed at a HUGELY higher rate than whites who commit the same crimes, and men FAR more than women.

 

Yeah that is true and unjust.

 

We can't administer the death penalty fairly, even if it were moral. We shouldn't be punishing people by taking their lives.

 

Agreed. Rather, they need counseling and safe imprisonment.

 

Safe imprisonment means that they should not be verbally, physically, or sexually abused. For example, I don't believe that a person should be raped for raping another person. I do think rapists should be punished for rape, but I don't believe in the idea of stooping down to a rapist's level by allowing other inmates to rape the rapist. Killing a killer then goes along the same lines, as well as torturing a torturer. Why stoop to the level of the crime against the one who committed that crime? All that does is encourage hatred and revenge.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Check out this link:

 

The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

 

Over 300 people have been exonerated - and over 70% of them non-white people.

 

Scary.

[KathyM]

I think the death penalty has its place, such as in the case of a mass murderer like Osama Bin Laden, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and those types. I don't think it's against Biblical teachings to carry out the death penalty in extreme cases. A pastor of a church that I belonged to for several years gave a sermon on this subject at one time, and it was his opinion that we are given authority by God to invoke such punishment to those who have purposely murdered someone. I think, in some cases, it is acceptable, and not against God's will, to invoke the death penalty, but of course, it should be reserved for the most severe cases, IMO.

[ComingInHot]

I have to admit that I struggle w/this. Should people pay for their crimes? Yes. Should people get a second chance? Most times I think, Yes.

But then I think of the father catching his worker or neighbor, someone raping his daughter. Caught in the act. The father beat him to death. Is That okay?

As a Mother, I think, Yes.

If someone broke into MY home w/the intent to harm and/or kill ANYONE in my family, I wouldn't think twice about pulling the trigger while looking them in the eye.

If they broke in looking for food or clothes, I would give them more than they could carry.

I know, hypocritical, right?

[Feelin Frisky]

If it were cheaper I'd be for it. But it costs more. I don't think it should be trumpeted as the mighty "death penalty" and made such a big thing as a deterrent. That's what makes it such a contentious thing and demands so many costly appeals and so forth. I feel we should discount it as the deterrent and just think of it as a flushing of garbage--fast, quiet, cheap and did I mention cheap? Surely there are some cases that can be determined to be proven true with no doubt. Why should society then pick up the tab to warehouse such a person for ever? Euthanize and move on.

[pureinheart]

Check out this link:

 

The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

 

Over 300 people have been exonerated - and over 70% of them non-white people.

 

Scary.

 

I think the death penalty has its place, such as in the case of a mass murderer like Osama Bin Laden, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and those types. I don't think it's against Biblical teachings to carry out the death penalty in extreme cases. A pastor of a church that I belonged to for several years gave a sermon on this subject at one time, and it was his opinion that we are given authority by God to invoke such punishment to those who have purposely murdered someone. I think, in some cases, it is acceptable, and not against God's will, to invoke the death penalty, but of course, it should be reserved for the most severe cases, IMO.

 

 

MC, this is why I am mostly against the death penalty now. Even with DNA now, there are still cases that are tried/conviction on circumstancial evidence.

 

Kathy, in these cases I would have to agree.

[pureinheart]

I have to admit that I struggle w/this. Should people pay for their crimes? Yes. Should people get a second chance? Most times I think, Yes.

But then I think of the father catching his worker or neighbor, someone raping his daughter. Caught in the act. The father beat him to death. Is That okay?

As a Mother, I think, Yes.

If someone broke into MY home w/the intent to harm and/or kill ANYONE in my family, I wouldn't think twice about pulling the trigger while looking them in the eye.

If they broke in looking for food or clothes, I would give them more than they could carry.

I know, hypocritical, right?

 

I don't think you're hypocritical. Your post made a lot of sense.

[pie2]

The death penalty is a tough question and Christians have diverse views on it. I personally believe that while it really depends on the case, I lean towards no death penalty but rather life imprisonment with counseling for the killer.

 

Beth, this is definitely a hard topic!!

 

It seems that, as a believer, I would want to give anyone who might face the DP the opportunity to repent, if they don't know Jesus. I'm glad you mentioned that there are diverse views on the death penalty within the community of believers. I don't know any of the statistics on the subject (who is for/against the DP), but it feels like conservatives (i.e. Republicans) are more often for the DP. I wonder how religion among conservatives factors in though?

 

As Feeling Frisky mentioned, the cost of housing a prisoner for decades may seem unfair if those resources could be better used in another way. But, the appeal process is already so lengthy, that the extra resources aren't that great. However, how can we put a price on someone's soul?

[pureinheart]

I am against the death penalty on many grounds. First, I think it's immoral.

 

Secondly, I think that there is always a margin of error, which has been proven quite a few times now that DNA evidence is available, and some condemned people have been exonerated.

 

It's not a deterrent. I doubt that a single criminal has held themselves back for fear of getting the one way ticket to paradise.

 

Finally, we are all human beings and even with the carful balances of our judicial system in place, justice is not meted out equally to all. Those who can afford top tier lawyers get away with a lot more than poor people; nonwhite people are executed at a HUGELY higher rate than whites who commit the same crimes, and men FAR more than women.

 

We can't administer the death penalty fairly, even if it were moral. We shouldn't be punishing people by taking their lives.

 

To add to this, there have been many cases where there is extreme pressure in the community to get a conviction, any conviction. Also political reasons play a big part, like re-elections that are bigtime motivators.

 

Like you said MC, if we had a more accurate justice system, it might be different, but we don't.

[TheFinalWord]

MC, this is why I am mostly against the death penalty now. Even with DNA now, there are still cases that are tried/conviction on circumstancial evidence.

 

Kathy, in these cases I would have to agree.

 

Agree with you and Kathy. The situation does get tricky and then you get into these tough spots...

 

Convicted murderer who asked for death electrocuted in Virginia - U.S. News

[pie2]

Agree with you and Kathy. The situation does get tricky and then you get into these tough spots...

 

Convicted murderer who asked for death electrocuted in Virginia - U.S. News

 

That is a tricky case! Ugh, so sad, in so many ways .

 

But I think requesting to die is a bit different than enforcing involuntary death on someone else...?

[Phoebe]

Cases like this make me believe in the death penalty and whenever I hear people using a child's age as an excuse for a crime I think back to this case too. Some people are just born wrong and no amount of rehabilition is going to fix them. Murder of James Bulger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[fortyninethousand322]

I'm against it. Human judgments are fallible. I'd rather make a mistake that was relatively correctable than make one that's completely irreversible.

 

There is a racial dimension to it of course, but that's always the case with the government...

[pureinheart]

Agree with you and Kathy. The situation does get tricky and then you get into these tough spots...

 

Convicted murderer who asked for death electrocuted in Virginia - U.S. News

 

Well, if they want it...

 

TFW, I was thinking about this senario:) ...not of the continued killing of inmates, but an inmate choosing the death penalty rather than life without parole.

[pureinheart]

Cases like this make me believe in the death penalty and whenever I hear people using a child's age as an excuse for a crime I think back to this case too. Some people are just born wrong and no amount of rehabilition is going to fix them. Murder of James Bulger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

Man Phoebe, this is freaking sick and I can't believe the two crackheads that murdered this poor little boy were released at 18...this is too sick...

[BetheButterfly]

Check out this link:

 

The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

 

Over 300 people have been exonerated - and over 70% of them non-white people.

 

Scary.

 

The death penalty seems to have been an excuse/way to kill many men who were not the "dominant" ethnicity of a country, which has greatly hurt their descendants. It's not fair or good. I personally believe that those who kill the innocent, as well as unfairly demand harsh punishment for people who are different while forgiving those who are of one's same ethnic group, will suffer the consequences on Judgement Day, when God judges people for what they did.

 

I am so glad that many of the innocent have been freed, and yeah, it is horrible that many who were falsely accused are of another ethnicity. This is so unjust. Sadly, many were killed and yet were innocent, before DNA testing was available due to learning.

 

The death penalty is too easily used to murder an innocent person accused of a crime.

Edited March 6, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

Cases like this make me believe in the death penalty and whenever I hear people using a child's age as an excuse for a crime I think back to this case too. Some people are just born wrong and no amount of rehabilition is going to fix them. Murder of James Bulger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This case helps me to see how important it is to NEVER be distracted while caring for children and to ALWAYS be on the vigil to protect the young, even from other young.

 

While I understand why one would want to kill those 2 boys who tortured and killed this precious younger child, I want to know how they developed such evil hearts/minds in the first place? Most 10 year old boys do not go around plotting torture and death of a younger child. Most play.

 

What made those 2 ten-year old boys into killers? Will killing them help prevent other boys from developing evil hearts/minds? While it could be a deterrent in some cases, killing has not cured evil.

 

We need to rescue potential killers from making the decision to kill in the first place. I wonder what could have helped these ten year old boys to have been in school where they belonged on that day, eagerly learning with their peers, instead of finding a victim for their perverted minds to torture and kill??? These boys needed guidance and protection to help them not develop perverted and evil minds. What happened? What transformed them from innocent children to perverted killers that tortured and killed a younger and innocent child???

 

I think both these 2 young killers deserve life in prison for what they did. They also need counseling. They do not deserve freedom from prison, in my opinion, because other people deserve protection from torturers/killers. However, we need to figure out how to protect other children from becoming torturers/killers.

Edited March 6, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[pureinheart]

I want to know how they developed such evil hearts/minds in the first place? Most 10 year old boys do not go around plotting torture and death of a younger child. Most play.

 

 

You know Bethy, my mind goes here too. I speculate, like was it violence on tv/video games, was it pornograghy like S&M, was it a depraved mind...but still more questions than answers.

[LadyGrey]

I agree with the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes, torture and murder of children comes to mind.

 

I have a daughter who is severely disabled, if someone molested/tortured/hurt/killed her in all her innocence, I think I would have no qualms pulling the switch myself.

[BetheButterfly]

I agree with the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes, torture and murder of children comes to mind.

 

I understand that, but I think life imprisonment, with counseling for the criminal, could help the criminal whereas killing the criminal doesn't help that criminal, but rather destroys.

I have a daughter who is severely disabled, if someone molested/tortured/hurt/killed her in all her innocence, I think I would have no qualms pulling the switch myself.

 

That's understandable and natural, and I think I would feel the same way. The maternal instinct is strong and good, to want to protect one's offspring and to punish anybody who dares hurt one's offspring.

 

This thread is about Christian beliefs and the death penalty, and for Christians, Jesus says to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:27-37) and that's so difficult sometimes. It also goes against the protective nature. For Christians, it's sometimes confusing as to how literal to take Jesus' commands to love one's enemies.

 

If someone tries to hurt my loved ones, it is human nature to want to protect them instead of loving those who are wanting to hurt them. Christians.

 

Jesus makes it very clear though what his followers are to do with enemies:

 

Luke 6 NIV - Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath - One - Bible Gateway

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you."

 

In Paul's letter to the church in Corinth, he writes a beautiful description of love:

 

1 Cor 13 NIV - If I speak in the tongues of men or of - Bible Gateway

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

 

Now, I agree with you Lady Grey that I would most definitely want to kill someone who hurts one of my loved ones, especially one who is vulnerable. However, because of being a Christian, I need to take into consideration Jesus' words and I have no idea if I would obey the command to love or not if an enemy hurt my family and friends. The death penalty is a really hard topic for Christians because Jesus' commands to love, do good to, bless, and pray for enemies are clear. Jesus didn't tell his followers to condemn people to hell or to send them there, but rather to love people, even one's enemies, and to tell people about him.

 

Now, I think why many Christians are for the death penalty is because of the strong protective nature, and Jesus' commands do go against nature in a way.

 

However, I think it's cool what Buddha says. Buddha, as far as I know, didn't know anything about the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), and lived before Jesus' time. However, he knew the importance of love instead of hate:

 

"Our enemies provide us with a precious opportunity to practice patience and love. We should have gratitude toward them" - Budda

 

Now, I don't know if what he would do if someone tortured his loved one... I do know though that Jesus suffered torture and death, and he didn't call on his followers to avenge him. Rather, he promised them that he would rise again. Christians believe he did.

 

I do think God punishes those that hurt others. However, hell is a very mistranslated term, because many Gentiles did not understand that Judaic concept of hell, but rather the Greeks and Romans put their own slant on it. The Judaic concept of hell is a place of punishment for hurting and not helping others, so I do think that God will judge all torturers, rapists, child molesters, and murderers. However, Jesus is very clear that we are to love. It's hard to do though... I think that's the hardest commandment ever: to love one's enemies. Because Jesus commanded this, I don't support the death penalty, though I do support sanitary and healthy conditions for life imprisonment, with counseling so hopefully the criminal can grow and understand what he/she did was wrong, and change in his/her heart.

[BetheButterfly]

You know Bethy, my mind goes here too. I speculate, like was it violence on tv/video games, was it pornograghy like S&M, was it a depraved mind...but still more questions than answers.

 

I don't know what caused those ten year old boys to hurt and kill the younger child. It makes me so sad though. My heart goes out to the Mom of the younger child, as well as the Moms of the ten year old boys. I would want to kill myself if my child ever did such a thing. I very much hope both the Moms of the ten-year old boys who hurt and killed the child get counseling. The boys very much need counseling too, and I hope they decide to transform into kind and good people, even if they do not reenter society but rather stay in prison. I do believe that people can change, if they want.

Edited March 9, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[somedude81]

I'm for it, but only in cases where the accused is 100% guilty and there is no question.

 

Basically if one kills another and there are witnesses, then the death penalty is given. There also has to be intent to harm.

 

If there are no witnesses, then DNA evidence has to be used to prove guilt.

 

I'm also completely against insanity as a defense. Being crazy does not excuse murder.

[pie2]

If there are no witnesses, then DNA evidence has to be used to prove guilt.

 

Based on my VERY limited knowledge about this topic, I get the impression that eye-witnesses can be pretty hit or miss. And finding DNA evidence doesn't happen like it does on CSI.

 

I'm also completely against insanity as a defense. Being crazy does not excuse murder.

 

It can feel unfair to omit the "murder" charge based on insanity. Though insane, the accused still committed the act. Why separate the person, their genetic/circumstantial makeup, and their actions in this case, and not, for example, in the gifted population? If we excuse someone a charge of murder based on insanity, why wouldn't we then separate innovation from the genius, for example by saying, 'Steve Jobs was nothing special, and didn't contribute anything to society...it was the genius in him that did it'? Is that really a fair way to look at it? I don't know...

Edited March 10, 2013 by pie2