Challenge

[M30USA]

Here is Mr. M30 back with more UFO nonsense.

 

I have tried to show many times in the past that the factual UFO phenomenon (as opposed to the perceived phenomenon especially on TV and movies) is the same as the age-old angelic phenomenon (as documented in the Bible).

 

I challenge people to find ways they are NOT the same. Again, please don't use fictional information from TV/movies, but rather actual evidence by credible researchers (your pick). Once you've gotten some info, please tell me if you can find any ways this phenomenon is DIFFERENT than what the Bible says about angels.

[pureinheart]

Awesome "nonsense" BTW:D

 

Not thinking this is too far off track- but was having this discussion last night. My friend brought up those drawings, think they were from the Pyramids? in Egypt...the drawings that show "space people" ...and am not sure how far back they are dated.

 

LOL dude, my explanation was that the artists might have been on opiates, but really can't explain that.

 

Keep in mind, my filter is way off right now, so if this is too off topic could I ask if you would pm me should you know about these drawings?

 

FTR I agree 100 million% that all UFO's are in fact angelic.

[Keenly]

As the one making the claim that UFOs are angelic in nature, the burden of proof lies on you to prove it, not on others to disprove it.

[M30USA]

As the one making the claim that UFOs are angelic in nature, the burden of proof lies on you to prove it, not on others to disprove it.

 

Keenly, my thread is kind of directed at those who've followed my past threads of lengthy discussion. I've written a lot about it. This thread is asking if anyone can find ways in which they are NOT similar.

[M30USA]

In case anybody needs a basic crashcourse in the angel/UFO connection, this is a good place to start. I think it's about 95% accurate. There are a few minor problems, but overall it's pretty Biblical. The best interviews are with Dr. Barry Downing.

 

(Don't waste your time with the History Channel's "Ancient Aliens" nonsense. That is mostly garbage and entertainment.)

 

Think Again Productions - UFO's Angels & Gods - YouTube

Edited March 4, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

Instead of asking us to discredit what you are saying, why not try and prove what you are saying?

 

Addressed already in prior post. Sorry, bad idea for my thread. I knew this would happen. Cheers.

[TaraMaiden]

I immediately switched off at "According to the Bible we are not the only beings on the planet."....

 

Now admittedly, my reason for switching off, is two-fold:

 

ONE: I'm connected to the Internet via a pay-as-you go dongle. It takes up an awful lot of dongle-time downloading stuff like this, so I can't afford that luxury....

 

But TWO: - if that is the general tone of the remainder of the video - "According to the bible"... then you cannot honestly, seriously expect anybody to view this with an open mind, if the only verifiable source is the Holy Book.

 

Which to the majority of devout Christians, is viewed like a software agreement.

 

Just scroll to the bottom and click on "I agree".

 

Do you have any non-christian- based literature or research to back up your discourse? Something done by a non-religious body to support your assertions?

I would hope you have.

 

One, I'd like to read it, two, it would underpin your stance on this.

[TheFinalWord]

Once you've gotten some info, please tell me if you can find any ways this phenomenon is DIFFERENT than what the Bible says about angels.

 

Can you please give the exact passages that convinced you? I'm not exactly sure how you're making this connection.

 

PS: I don't know if I really want to be challenged lol This forum is mainly for light discussion and fellowship with Christians for me

Edited March 5, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[Mme. Chaucer]

The phenomena that lead ancient Greeks to believe that their gods lived on a mountaintop are still going on today. This doesn't mean that Zeus is up there right now.

[TheFinalWord]

It's true...

 

[Mme. Chaucer]

In case anybody needs a basic crashcourse in the angel/UFO connection, this is a good place to start. I think it's about 95% accurate. There are a few minor problems, but overall it's pretty Biblical. The best interviews are with Dr. Barry Downing.

 

(Don't waste your time with the History Channel's "Ancient Aliens" nonsense. That is mostly garbage and entertainment.)

 

 

If you seriously want to have an intelligent discussion about something controversial, you never will if you discount every possible source of information or theory on the subject that does not confirm your point of view.

 

If you were willing to entertain the notion that every word in the bible is not scientific and historic literal fact, you might think about the possibility that "space men," UFO's, aliens, whatever you call them were observed and erroneously deemed "angelic."

 

That's not my belief, but if you really want to talk about it you'd have to be able to prove that perspective as wrong without just going back to your regular starting point - you believe that YOUR INTERPRETATION of every single word in the bible is the absolute literal truth.

 

So what's the point of even talking with other people? Even many Christians who are as devout, or more devout than you are might not agree with you and you won't even deign to honor their own way of understanding their faith and the bible.

[TheFinalWord]

Addressed already in prior post. Sorry, bad idea for my thread. I knew this would happen. Cheers.

 

I think you're fine. I think you would get further from a biblical perspective, citing the passages you believe support your view. My 2 cents: Ask mods to close thread and start a new one using scriptures you feel show this view. We've discussed Nephilim before, so I'm not sure what there is to add to that.

 

For the secular view, I think you would get further with a thread discussing whether UFOs even exist and if there is a spiritual connection. A lot of people believe in them. I think I told you my dad and his 5 brothers saw a UFO. We all went camping where he grew up. I was only like 8, and was sleeping in the tent, but my dad and his brothers all saw it and were talking about it/drawing it for days. It was the cigar shaped UFO. My dad and his other brother saw a UFO that was hiding in the clouds. Dad said the whole cloud lit up. My dad saw it and his brother said "yeah that is normal around here". Dad said, "That's not normal" lol Now they grew up in the deep woods so you could see very well at night. For the record my dad has been a hunter his whole life and has never witnessed big foot. He doesn't believe in it

[M30USA]

I think you're fine. I think you would get further from a biblical perspective, citing the passages you believe support your view. My 2 cents: Ask mods to close thread and start a new one using scriptures you feel show this view. We've discussed Nephilim before, so I'm not sure what there is to add to that.

 

For the secular view, I think you would get further with a thread discussing whether UFOs even exist and if there is a spiritual connection. A lot of people believe in them. I think I told you my dad and his 5 brothers saw a UFO. We all went camping where he grew up. I was only like 8, and waus sleeping in the tent, but my dad and his brothers all saw it and were talking about it/drawing it for days. It was the cigar shaped UFO. My dad and his other brother saw a UFO that was hiding in the clouds. Dad said the whole cloud lit up. My dad saw it and his brother said "yeah that is normal around here". Dad said, "That's not normal" lol Now they grew up in the deep woods so you could see very well at night. For the record my dad has been a hunter his whole life and has never witnessed big foot. He doesn't believe in it

 

Awesome!

 

Two of my brothers, my uncle, and a good friend (all of who I KNOW have good judgement and wouldn't BS me) all saw UFOs.

 

The only time I ever saw a potential UFO was during a large scale wildfire that happened once. At first I thought it was a plane, until it spontaneously increased its speed by at least 10x and shot instantly beyond the tree line.

 

Looking back in retrospect, I have since come across the research of Dr Allen Hynek (who Spielberg consulted for "Close Encounters"). He listed many factors which SEEM to correlate to increased sightings. Some of them include:

 

- natural disasters

- wars (thus the records of Alexander Great where glowing circles came down and archers shot at them)

- mountaintops/volcanoes (thus the mountain volcano in "Close Encounters" where UFO lands)

- significant historical events (thus the records of Christipher Columbus on his voyage where he saw UFO in sky which looked like a "menorah" and even flew in and out of water)

 

I find it interesting that my only UFO sighting was during a natural disaster nearby. I even called local authorities to ask if there were any "downed aircraft" because, in my opinion, it was only two possible things: downed aircraft, or UFO.

Edited March 5, 2013 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

I would repeat the question:

 

Do you have any non-christian- based literature or research to back up your discourse? Something done by a non-religious body to support your assertions?

I would hope you have.

 

One, I'd like to read it, two, it would underpin your stance on this.

[TheFinalWord]

Awesome!

 

Two of my brothers, my uncle, and a good friend (all of who I KNOW have good judgement and wouldn't BS me) all saw UFOs.

 

The only time I ever saw a potential UFO was during a large scale wildfire that happened once. At first I thought it was a plane, until it spontaneously increased its speed by at least 10x and shot instantly beyond the tree line.

 

Looking back in retrospect, I have since come across the research of Dr Allen Hynek (who Spielberg consulted for "Close Encounters"). He listed many factors which SEEM to correlate to increased sightings. Some of them include:

 

- natural disasters

- wars (thus the records of Alexander Great where glowing circles came down and archers shot at them)

- mountaintops/volcanoes (thus the mountain volcano in "Close Encounters" where UFO lands)

- significant historical events (thus the records of Christipher Columbus on his voyage where he saw UFO in sky which looked like a "menorah" and even flew in and out of water)

 

I find it interesting that my only UFO sighting was during a natural disaster nearby. I even called local authorities to ask if there were any "downed aircraft" because, in my opinion, it was only two possible things: downed aircraft, or UFO.

 

Well, that's interesting. It seems that natural disasters could produce natural phenomena? Volcanoes, could shoot up molten rock that would glow, flaming arrows, etc. I guess it depends on what you mean by UFO...if you mean something just unidentified or if you mean alien/angel spacecraft. I'm not sure what the standards are for telling the difference.

[M30USA]

I would repeat the question:

 

What assertions? That UFOs are angels? Why would a non-religious person try to prove that?

 

If you're talking about general evidence for UFOs, then I can fire away over 100 credible researchers, if you actually want them. Just name the specific area within ufology and I can give you several.

[M30USA]

Well, that's interesting. It seems that natural disasters could produce natural phenomena? Volcanoes, could shoot up molten rock that would glow, flaming arrows, etc. I guess it depends on what you mean by UFO...if you mean something just unidentified or if you mean alien/angel spacecraft. I'm not sure what the standards are for telling the difference.

 

It's not just volcanoes. It's mountains. Here's something to consider: Mount Sinai is where Moses met God. Also, in mythology, we have Mount Olympus where the "gods" lived and would descend on earth.

[M30USA]

But you're trying to assert that UFOs are angels, right? Not just that there are UFOs (it's questionable, at best) but that they are something specific. What evidence do you have for this, excluding the Bible?

 

Your question is flawed. Science (ie, evidence) disregards even the possibility of angels...so how can there be any evidence which shows UFOs are angels? Son you understand the logical problem? This is why, by nature of what we are dealing with, we MUST use the Bible etc.

 

There is a difference between showing that two things are the same...and showing that they both exist. I am showing the former. Can you not see the difference?

[M30USA]

Dr Allen Hynek, an atheist, said the UFO phenomenon is "demonic in nature". He was scientific advisor to US Airforce.

[M30USA]

You're not showing much of anything. You're saying if UFOs exist (like I said, questionable at best) then you think they are angels because the Bible tells you certain things, and you've interpreted them to mean that.

 

First up, put up your evidence that UFOs exist. And then show how you have drawn the conclusion that they must be angels. Until then, it's hard to take you seriously.

 

For the love of all things holy, don't take this the wrong way but you would make a bad lawyer. I am not addressing the "proof" issue now that you are endlessly hung up on. Do you not understand this thread? The whole point is not whether they can be proven. Rather, IF they are real, I intend to show they are identical phenomenon.

[TheFinalWord]

For the love of all things holy, don't take this the wrong way but you would make a bad lawyer. I am not addressing the "proof" issue now that you are endlessly hung up on. Do you not understand this thread? The whole point is not whether they can be proven. Rather, IF they are real, I intend to show they are identical phenomenon.

 

Hey be nice HS is my girl.

 

You have to realize how this topic comes across. If you are going to challenge people with this idea, you have to be patient bro

 

It's not just volcanoes. It's mountains. Here's something to consider: Mount Sinai is where Moses met God. Also, in mythology, we have Mount Olympus where the "gods" lived and would descend on earth.

 

That's cool. Let's just take one thing at a time. Is there ever an occurance in the bible where an angelic "vehicle" (I think this is another area which modern UFOs do not line up with the bible) appears during a natural disaster without delivering a specific message from God? i.e. floating above the ground in a "observing". Angel means "messenger"?

 

Here are the instances:

 

What the Bible Says About: angel appearances of

 

To Abraham, Gen. 18:2; 22:11-18; Hagar, in the wilderness, Gen. 16:7; Lot, in Sodom, Gen. 19:1-17; Jacob, in his various visions, Gen. 28:12; Moses, Ex. 3:2; Israelites, Ex. 14:19; Judg. 2:1-4; Balaam, Num. 22:31; Joshua, "the captain of the Lord's army,'' Josh. 5:15; Gideon, Judg. 6:11-22; Manoah, Judg. 13:6,15-20; David, at the threshing floor of Araunah, 2 Sam. 24:16,17; 1 Chr. 21:15,16; Elijah, while he lay under the juniper tree, 1 Kin. 19:5-11; Daniel, in the lions' den, Dan. 6:22; 8:16; 9:21; 10:5-10,16,18; 12:5-7; Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, in the fiery furnace, Dan. 3:25,28; Zechariah, in a vision, Zech. 2:3; 3:1,2; 4:1; Joseph, in a dream, Matt. 1:20; 2:13,19. At the transfiguration of Jesus, Matt. 17:3; Luke 9:30,31. To Mary, concerning Jesus, Luke 1:26-38; Zacharias, Luke 1:11-20,26-38; the shepherds, Luke 2:9-11,13,14; Jesus, after his temptation, Matt. 4:11; in Gethsemane, Luke 22:43. At the sepulcher, Matt. 28:2-5; Mark 16:5-7; Luke 24:23; John 20:12; the ascension, Acts 1:10,11. To Peter and John, while in prison, Acts 5:19; Philip, Acts 8:26; Cornelius, in a dream, Acts 10:3,30-32; Peter, in prison, Acts 12:7-11; Paul, on the way to Damascus, Acts 27:23; John, in Patmos, Rev. 1:1; 5:2; 7:11; 10:9; 11:1; 17:7; 19:10; 22:8.

[M30USA]

Good question. There are numerous examples in the Bible where angels actually go to great lengths to AVOID being seen or known. We have the case of the angel who refused to tell Manoah his name or any I formation. There's the angel who tried to hurry away from Jacob as daylight approached so he wouldn't be seen. We also have Moses who was told to turn away and hide in a rock as God, himself, passed by. Why the secrecy just like UFOs?

 

As far as the "observing" traits, we have the verse in Psalm 38 about angels "encamping around" those who trust God. Key word: "around". We also have the example of how, according to Paul, the angels were waiting to see the result of Christs crucifixion. Where were they watching from? It's almost like they were the audience, not man. In fact the Bible even hints at this in other books.

 

Outside of the Bible, we have the famous term used in antiquity for angels: "the watchers". Even the Book of Enoch ( non cannon) refers to angels as "watchers". Gives you imagery of them just hanging out far away and just observing--only getting involved in specific cases. (This behavior is IDENTUCAL to the Bibles description of angels as well as modern UFOs. In the book by Leslie Kean, a commercial airline pilot said the UFO he clearly saw was not only following him but also acted like it was "playing a game with me". Hmm...and why the the angel "wrestle" with Jacob?)

Edited March 5, 2013 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

Good question. There are numerous examples in the Bible where angels actually go to great lengths to AVOID being seen or known. We have the case of the angel who refused to tell Manoah his name or any I formation. There's the angel who tried to hurry away from Jacob as daylight approached so he wouldn't be seen. We also have Moses who was told to turn away and hide in a rock as God, himself, passed by. Why the secrecy just like UFOs?

 

As far as the "observing" traits, we have the verse in Psalm 38 about angels "encamping around" those who trust God. Key word: "around". We also have the example of how, according to Paul, the angels were waiting to see the result of Christs crucifixion. Where were they watching from? It's almost like they were the audience, not man. In fact the Bible even hints at this in other books.

 

Outside of the Bible, we have the famous term used in antiquity for angels: "the watchers". Even the Book of Enoch ( non cannon) refers to angels as "watchers". Gives you imagery of them just hanging out far away and just observing--only getting involved in specific cases. (This behavior is IDENTUCAL to the Bibles description of angels as well as modern UFOs. In the book by Leslie Kean, a commercial airline pilot said the UFO he clearly saw was not only following him but also acted like it was "playing a game with me". Hmm...and why the the angel "wrestle" with Jacob?)

 

Okay, thanks. I am trying to rule out one thing at a time. What you are describing above is actual angels appearing to people and delivering a specific message (God hiding his face was not to remain mysterious, it's b/c all that see His face in full glory will die; it was for Moses' benefit).

Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

 

What was claimed was that a respected UFO expert stated that UFOs appear during natural disasters. What was also claimed is that "Once you've gotten some info, please tell me if you can find any ways this phenomenon is DIFFERENT than what the Bible says about angels."

 

So are there any descriptions in the bible (please give chapter and verse) in which an angelic vehicle appears during a natural disaster without any direct message from God?

 

If not, than can we rule out modern UFO sightings during natural disasters align with scripture.

 

Please note with this, I am working on the assumption that these are not natural phenomena; just looking at these examples in comparison to the bible. I still don't know what standards ufologists use to differentiate natural phenomena from alien/angel spacecraft.

[M30USA]

TFW, I completely agree with your idea about the "vehicle" concept being the most hard to account for. But I have a few views on that:

 

1) There IS the mention multiple times in Scripture of "chariots". We've talked about this. Psalms even says "the Lord is among them". In the case of the pillar of fire in Exodus, it distinctly says the angel was INSIDE the pillar.

 

2) The idea of space vehicles is less than 100 years old and didn't exist in the Bible. What word could you possibly use to describe one in ancient times? Even the Native Americans, when they first saw the trains and railroad, called it something like "the swift bull". I mean...what ELSE would they call it? They didn't even have ANY vehicles!

 

3) Dr John Mack of Harvard, a big proponent of UFOs in academia, has talked about how, while UFOs may LOOK like discs, saucers, etc.., that doesn't necessarily mean they are "ships" or "vehicles". They could be something entirely different which our own knowledge base has no reference point for

[M30USA]

TFW, there are many examples where angels came to earth for a reason and its not explicitly stayed they were sent by God. Nor was it always to deliver a message. There is an implication, yes, that they are ultimately all under Gods direction, but it's not always stated. We also have the case of demons and fallen angels who clearly do NOT follow Gods direction--even though God allows it.

 

(FYI, you will find the angel Gabriel associated with announcements, but not all the others. Angels have different purposes. Some, like Micael, are for battle...etc)