Why I wanted a second-hand WS

[cocorico]

I am neither an OM nor an OW, but I cannot understand why a MM would be called second-hand. It is no different than getting a divorced person....except he or she is still committed.

 

 

I agree with you completely! I should have used scare quotes to indicate I was quoting, facetiously, a sentiment often tossed out here about such Rs. "Sloppy seconds" is another such, though a little more graphic and even higher in bad taste value.

 

FTR I do not believe human beings are, or should be, seen or treated as possessions, so any notion of someone being "second hand" or "pre-owned" is actually deeply offensive, IMO.

[cocorico]

Where you really lost me was the analogy to the crash survivors. In one case, the survivors needed to eat human flesh to survive. In the other, the MM just wanted to eat, well, something else.

 

You don't think human love and affection are basic human needs? OK, we'll have to disagree in that, then.

 

Sure, if all his basic human needs had been met, and he just wanted something extra "on the side", I could see some validity to this argument. But where someone is subject daily to duress, and does not have their basic human needs met, and yet needs to "be strong" and survive for dependent others, it's likely if not inevitable they will Se other sources to meet those basic human needs - whether those denied needs are for food, shelter or care.

[cocorico]

cocorico, I agree with you that people do extreme things in situations of duress. What are the extreme circumstances in your case? Do you believe that it is reasonable for your MM to cheat on his wife?

 

He is no longer in the situation. At the time, everyone who knew him supported the A as a shorter-term means of survival, although they were more supportive of him leaving his situation in the longer term.

[cocorico]

How long is this enough though? When will you eventually want more? A child of your own, to have him laying next to you daily in bed, sharing holidays, birthdays and other celebrations, being a true part of every aspect of each others lives? He can only do so much, move so much sand here..He still is married. If you truly are happy with this, then enjoy it for as long as it lasts. My worry for you is, the D-day and what will happen to you afterwards since you've invested so much.

 

WW, I have all of that. He left some years back, no DDay, moved all the mountains he needed to move, and then some.

[cocorico]

I, as the fBS, could have written this word for word to describe the anomoly of my H's affair, his actions during it, the hard work that followed upon the discovery of it, and my decision to give him a shot at reconciling.

 

I have always said that the work that the MM who leaves for the OW does is very similar to the work that the reconciling WS does, if either R is to be successful or sustainable in the longer term. The issues are essentially the same - the issues regarding the choices of the WS need to be explored, addressed, and resolved, and the issues regarding the situation / environment that sparked those choices need to be understood so that similar situations can be avoided in future, where it is realistic to do so, or better early warning systems put in place where this is feasible, or where neither is feasible, sufficient awareness among both parties to recognise "danger zones" and sound strategies for dealing with these. "Leaving for the OW" is certainly not a soft option for the MM, and "being chosen by the MM" is certainly not a soft option for the OW.

[cocorico]

Long time no see on this forum cocorico!

 

...and it's great to see you back, WF! I missed all the posts that were excised, just saw the mod note and gathered that some were.

 

Your point about people learning from experience and not wanting to go their again is well-taken. My partner suffered huge personal cost during the A and would not willingly go down that route again! The claims that he was "rewarded" last time don't really stack up because that is the very "reward" he would stand to lose...

[Finally Settled]

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Someone who cheats practices "techniques of neutralization" while in the affair. They justify their actions by changing how they see the world. Someone who has had an affair once is more likely to cheat again because they already have a mindset that permits the behavior. They are more easily able to justify having an affair again--especially when the affair resulted in more positive reinforcement than negative.

 

You are correct that behavior depends on the situation. When your MM finds himself stressed/unhappy/etc. with the marriage, there is a higher probability of him engaging in an affair again. He got the positive reinforcement by leaving the unhappiness with his ex-wife and going to happiness with you. When things with you become unhappy, he may run to the arms of someone else and continue the cycle.

 

Then again, he may not. I'm not saying anything specific to your relationship. I am saying that it is statistically more likely that this will happen. There are, of course, outliers.

 

This thought is very interesting to me threelaurels. I am currently working on a post divorce relationship with my other woman and she is proving much more difficult to 'prove' myself to than my exwife was. If there was positive reinforcement for me, it was provided much more by my exwife than my other woman.

 

With all the warm greetings to you White Flower I must say I am looking forward to watching your posts in the future.

[cocorico]

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Someone who cheats practices "techniques of neutralization" while in the affair. They justify their actions by changing how they see the world. Someone who has had an affair once is more likely to cheat again because they already have a mindset that permits the behavior. They are more easily able to justify having an affair again--especially when the affair resulted in more positive reinforcement than negative.

 

The old saw "once bitten, twice shy" also exists for a reason.

 

Stating that "someone who had an A already has a mindset that permits the behaviour" overlooks the huge cost that cognitive dissonance brings to people who betray their own fundamental values of how they feel they should be behaving towards someone to whom they feel even a vestigial obligation, etc. Without his entire family, all of his colleagues, his network of friends, his counsellor and the woman he loved all supporting him through the A it is very unlikely he would have been able to sustain it, or even have engaged in the first place.

 

Some WS may indeed develop a philandering mindset, or rationalise their infidelity as acceptable, and for those it may well lesson the taboo for th future. For others, though, it has the opposite effect and strengthens the taboo.

 

You are correct that behavior depends on the situation. When your MM finds himself stressed/unhappy/etc. with the marriage, there is a higher probability of him engaging in an affair again. He got the positive reinforcement by leaving the unhappiness with his ex-wife and going to happiness with you. When things with you become unhappy, he may run to the arms of someone else and continue the cycle.

 

Again, the notion of "positive reinforcement" is simplistic here and ignores the contextual factors of universal social support, etc, and the very real personal costs.

 

It also assumes that the duress that led to the A situation is replicable. It may well be, and if I were to put it to the test by, say, sustainedly abusing him and his family for decades, etc, I might indeed find that to be the case - perhaps deservedly so. However, all of that counselling made him very aware of what triggered him. He has actively developed new, better, strategies for dealing with situations of duress, which he has frequent opportunities in other areas of his life to practise. Also, it ignores the fact that our R, our lifestyle, etc are poles apart from theirs. And aside from an X chromosome, anyone would be hard-pressed to find any similarity between me and his X. The entire dynamic is different, and calls for different responses.

 

Then again, he may not. I'm not saying anything specific to your relationship. I am saying that it is statistically more likely that this will happen. There are, of course, outliers.

 

Statistically, I ought to be dead, since I have already exceeded the life expectancy of my nationality, so I am we'll aware of how statistics work. They also rely on the stripping out of all confounding variables, and the reduction of cases to "sameness", ignoring the fine-grained differences between them that lead to one case having one outcome, and another, a different. It is for that reason that I prefer ethnographic and case-study methods in my own research practice, because I am far more interest in the "how" and the "why" than in the "what".

[spice4life]

The old saw "once bitten, twice shy" also exists for a reason.

 

Stating that "someone who had an A already has a mindset that permits the behaviour" overlooks the huge cost that cognitive dissonance brings to people who betray their own fundamental values of how they feel they should be behaving towards someone to whom they feel even a vestigial obligation, etc. Without his entire family, all of his colleagues, his network of friends, his counsellor and the woman he loved all supporting him through the A it is very unlikely he would have been able to sustain it, or even have engaged in the first place.

 

Some WS may indeed develop a philandering mindset, or rationalise their infidelity as acceptable, and for those it may well lesson the taboo for th future. For others, though, it has the opposite effect and strengthens the taboo.

 

 

 

Again, the notion of "positive reinforcement" is simplistic here and ignores the contextual factors of universal social support, etc, and the very real personal costs.

 

It also assumes that the duress that led to the A situation is replicable. It may well be, and if I were to put it to the test by, say, sustainedly abusing him and his family for decades, etc, I might indeed find that to be the case - perhaps deservedly so. However, all of that counselling made him very aware of what triggered him. He has actively developed new, better, strategies for dealing with situations of duress, which he has frequent opportunities in other areas of his life to practise. Also, it ignores the fact that our R, our lifestyle, etc are poles apart from theirs. And aside from an X chromosome, anyone would be hard-pressed to find any similarity between me and his X. The entire dynamic is different, and calls for different responses.

 

 

 

Statistically, I ought to be dead, since I have already exceeded the life expectancy of my nationality, so I am we'll aware of how statistics work. They also rely on the stripping out of all confounding variables, and the reduction of cases to "sameness", ignoring the fine-grained differences between them that lead to one case having one outcome, and another, a different. It is for that reason that I prefer ethnographic and case-study methods in my own research practice because I am far more interest in the "how" and the "why" than in the "what".

 

Great thread corico. Thank you bringing us this perspective...it's not something you see here often. It sounds like you and SO walked through quite a valley of fire to get where you are today. That shows true love and dedication. The bolded part rings true for me as I think the same way. It's definitely the "how" and the "why" that are most important to me. You cannot solve the issues without them.

 

Thanks again, great stuff!

[spice4life]

Warm welcome to you WhiteFlower. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and insights.

[Finally Settled]

I have always said that the work that the MM who leaves for the OW does is very similar to the work that the reconciling WS does, if either R is to be successful or sustainable in the longer term. The issues are essentially the same - the issues regarding the choices of the WS need to be explored, addressed, and resolved, and the issues regarding the situation / environment that sparked those choices need to be understood so that similar situations can be avoided in future, where it is realistic to do so, or better early warning systems put in place where this is feasible, or where neither is feasible, sufficient awareness among both parties to recognise "danger zones" and sound strategies for dealing with these. "Leaving for the OW" is certainly not a soft option for the MM, and "being chosen by the MM" is certainly not a soft option for the OW.

 

 

I left my marriage several years after my affair ended. I never fell out of love with my other woman so it was fully my intention to try and build a life with her when I was to a point I could. I sent word to her a few months after I filed for divorce. Having had no response I waited months more and sent further word. She finally contacted once my divorce was final. Until we were with a counsellor I never realized how hurt I was that she never so much as responded. I knew I was heartbroken, but I didn't realize I was angry. When I said expressed this to her she swiftly reminded me of hurts she'd suffered, and also her fear of running into that particular 'burning building' again.

 

Being together was not a soft, safe, or guaranteed option for either of us. I am more positive about our future right now than I have ever been, and that is a monumental accomplishment for us both.

[Got it]

FS and Cocorio - I have found our relationship to be quite similar. I was not willing to except less than 110% from myself or from him and we both had interpersonal relationship skills that were not up to snuff that were no longer acceptable. I want him to be happy. I want to be happy. But I am not defaulting or settling to do so. I knew the shortcuts and the concessions I made in my first marriage that came back to bite me and I was no longer willing to do that to myself.

 

I learned with all of this how to be happy alone so, actually like I said to dMM from our very beginning, I don't want a man to need me, I want a man to want me and vice versa. So laying the foundation in the affair, with dMM I had no reason or inclination to not have a very high bar with him and us. That was going to be my standard going forward with any relationship. I was not going to settle for less from myself or from us. So therapy was mandatory (CC would be mandatory with any romantic relationship I am in. I just think it is invaluable and cannot hurt and a huge red flag for me if a man is not willing to do it.), how our relationship is structured is vital, and how we communicate is vital.

 

My "problem" especially with dMM has been having a proverbial foot out the door. One, I have realized that emotionally that has been a coping mechanism for me but secondarily, with the nature of us starting as an affair it really lent to that. I am working on changing that now as we proceed further but dMM has not been given any quarter. My biggest struggle was after the the divorce but needing to be long distance. That almost ended us as it is a definite deal breaker for me now.

 

I see some similar patterns that indicate the issue is me (my apt to snap at someone as I am easily frustrated) and have solidified that I need to work on that, but his reaction and the outcome are totally different. There are some pieces that are definitely a "me" issue, but our partnership is very different as his personality is extremely different. That is a major factor.

 

Staying with my ex would have been easier. He was an easier guy in regards to his boundaries/expectations with me. But I would not have been a better person with him and I don't think he would have been either.

[beenburned]

I think anyone dating a person they love sees a great potential for that person to become a SO/future H/W. But it takes years of living together to uncover all of the baggage/habits a person might have.

 

All of these examples of exit affairs that went on to become new relationships, is well and good, but that still doesn't mean it will work out in the long run.

 

My own married sister had a very brief affair with a co-worker MM. They fell in love, wanted to marry each other, and made their prospective divorces with XS happen. They have now been married 15+ years and as far as I know, neither one has ever cheated again.

 

But, I also know of many relationships between former affair partners that divorced their XS that didn't work out in the long run.

 

The exact same thing can be said of reconciliation between former WS and their spouses, some do all of the hard work and make it, and others don't.

 

It all depends on the mentality of the former cheater, and what they think is acceptable behavior, when the going gets rough ,or even when opportunities present themselves when away from their spoues/SO. If they really don't believe in monogamy, and keep it hidden from others, then no amount of love or compatibility with a new spouse/partner will ever matter.

[Finally Settled]

FS and Cocorio - I have found our relationship to be quite similar. I was not willing to except less than 110% from myself or from him and we both had interpersonal relationship skills that were not up to snuff that were no longer acceptable. I want him to be happy. I want to be happy. But I am not defaulting or settling to do so. I knew the shortcuts and the concessions I made in my first marriage that came back to bite me and I was no longer willing to do that to myself.

 

I learned with all of this how to be happy alone so, actually like I said to dMM from our very beginning, I don't want a man to need me, I want a man to want me and vice versa. So laying the foundation in the affair, with dMM I had no reason or inclination to not have a very high bar with him and us. That was going to be my standard going forward with any relationship. I was not going to settle for less from myself or from us. So therapy was mandatory (CC would be mandatory with any romantic relationship I am in. I just think it is invaluable and cannot hurt and a huge red flag for me if a man is not willing to do it.), how our relationship is structured is vital, and how we communicate is vital.

 

My "problem" especially with dMM has been having a proverbial foot out the door. One, I have realized that emotionally that has been a coping mechanism for me but secondarily, with the nature of us starting as an affair it really lent to that. I am working on changing that now as we proceed further but dMM has not been given any quarter. My biggest struggle was after the the divorce but needing to be long distance. That almost ended us as it is a definite deal breaker for me now.

 

I see some similar patterns that indicate the issue is me (my apt to snap at someone as I am easily frustrated) and have solidified that I need to work on that, but his reaction and the outcome are totally different. There are some pieces that are definitely a "me" issue, but our partnership is very different as his personality is extremely different. That is a major factor.

 

Staying with my ex would have been easier. He was an easier guy in regards to his boundaries/expectations with me. But I would not have been a better person with him and I don't think he would have been either.

 

My Dear GotIt, I do so completely understand the work you and your fellow have done. I have many 'me' issues as well and though they are so easily recognizable, they are so difficult to conquer.

 

It would have been easier to stay with my exwife too, but I wanted the happiness I knew existed and sadly to say, it was with another. I regret what I did to her when I was unfaithful, but I don't regret being with my other woman now. I think that is something I may never quite reconcile.

 

Good luck to you and your fellow.

[spice4life]

FS and Cocorio - I have found our relationship to be quite similar. I was not willing to except less than 110% from myself or from him and we both had interpersonal relationship skills that were not up to snuff that were no longer acceptable. I want him to be happy. I want to be happy. But I am not defaulting or settling to do so. I knew the shortcuts and the concessions I made in my first marriage that came back to bite me and I was no longer willing to do that to myself.

 

I learned with all of this how to be happy alone so, actually like I said to dMM from our very beginning, I don't want a man to need me, I want a man to want me and vice versa. So laying the foundation in the affair, with dMM I had no reason or inclination to not have a very high bar with him and us. That was going to be my standard going forward with any relationship. I was not going to settle for less from myself or from us. So therapy was mandatory (CC would be mandatory with any romantic relationship I am in. I just think it is invaluable and cannot hurt and a huge red flag for me if a man is not willing to do it.), how our relationship is structured is vital, and how we communicate is vital.

 

My "problem" especially with dMM has been having a proverbial foot out the door. One, I have realized that emotionally that has been a coping mechanism for me but secondarily, with the nature of us starting as an affair it really lent to that. I am working on changing that now as we proceed further but dMM has not been given any quarter. My biggest struggle was after the the divorce but needing to be long distance. That almost ended us as it is a definite deal breaker for me now.

 

I see some similar patterns that indicate the issue is me (my apt to snap at someone as I am easily frustrated) and have solidified that I need to work on that, but his reaction and the outcome are totally different. There are some pieces that are definitely a "me" issue, but our partnership is very different as his personality is extremely different. That is a major factor.

 

Staying with my ex would have been easier. He was an easier guy in regards to his boundaries/expectations with me. But I would not have been a better person with him and I don't think he would have been either.

 

Great post GotIt! I can totally relate to the bolded part. How can you not have the proverbial "foot out the door" in an affair. It's called self protecting because the game can change at any moment and your left with a broken heart and a lot of carnage to sift through as you put your life back together. An affair definitely lends itself to that coping mechanism. It's letting them know that you want to b respected and won't tolerate any shizz. Period. So I can imagine it must be a challenge to pull that foot in the door when you are developing a relationship post affair.

 

Your last paragraph is key. A good relationship is measured by the person they bring out in you. If being with them organically evolve into a better person then you have a keeper! I think one of my issues would be not tolerating manipulation and that seems to be a trait many MM's have. They have to because they are living two lives. I would have to call him out on it and let him know to "knock it off"...lol. "Oops" doesn't cut it. ...just don't do it!

Edited March 7, 2013 by spice4life

[Finally Settled]

I think anyone dating a person they love sees a great potential for that person to become a SO/future H/W. But it takes years of living together to uncover all of the baggage/habits a person might have.

 

All of these examples of exit affairs that went on to become new relationships, is well and good, but that still doesn't mean it will work out in the long run.

 

My own married sister had a very brief affair with a co-worker MM. They fell in love, wanted to marry each other, and made their prospective divorces with XS happen. They have now been married 15+ years and as far as I know, neither one has ever cheated again.

 

But, I also know of many relationships between former affair partners that divorced their XS that didn't work out in the long run.

 

The exact same thing can be said of reconciliation between former WS and their spouses, some do all of the hard work and make it, and others don't.

 

It all depends on the mentality of the former cheater, and what they think is acceptable behavior, when the going gets rough ,or even when opportunities present themselves when away from their spoues/SO. If they really don't believe in monogamy, and keep it hidden from others, then no amount of love or compatibility with a new spouse/partner will ever matter.

 

 

No truer words have been spoken beenburned. Your comments are exactly the reason all of the therapy and introspection are necessary to move forward whether in a new relationship or the original marriage.

 

My therapist specifically deals with over 40s because of the baggage and habits accumulated through the years. It's been enlightening to have her approach not only the issues of my infidelity, but also my age.

[White Flower]

Warm welcome to you WhiteFlower. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and insights.

 

Thank you Spice4life, I enjoyed yours too:)

[White Flower]

This thought is very interesting to me threelaurels. I am currently working on a post divorce relationship with my other woman and she is proving much more difficult to 'prove' myself to than my exwife was. If there was positive reinforcement for me, it was provided much more by my exwife than my other woman.

 

With all the warm greetings to you White Flower I must say I am looking forward to watching your posts in the future.

Thank you Finally Settled!

 

Believe it or not I connected with a lot of the BSs here. I honestly believe if we try to see the other side we could actually get along. If a BW can forgive a SC H after 45 years of perpetual cheating, why can't she then have a congenial discussion on a board like this with OW she doesn't even know personally? I was a BW once upon a time but I don't blame anyone for that pain except for my exH. I came here for answers, not fights. I'm hoping to see this place has caught on to that sentiment.

[LadyGrey]

(((((wf))))))

[White Flower]

(((((wf))))))

 

Lol, was that warm hugs? I'm going to say yes. Thank you Lady Gray.

[Tenacity]

I think part of the crux of the disconnect and reason I don't understand is this.

I would NEVER be able to forgive someone who lied and cheated and betrayed ME. Never.

 

He's always been the same guy to me. I knew what he was doing, what he was capable of. I am well aware of the fact that he's doing those things, but he's not inflicting that hurt on ME, so to me it's just a flaw. Lots of people fall in love with those who do dumb or hurtful things and as long as they aren't doing them TO THEM they can overlook it.

And he's worth more than his flaw to me.

 

To his BS, he changed and broke his vows and did all kinds of hurtful things actively TO her.

 

To me that's the difference.

 

You might, LFH. I have been in your shoes. And I understand the intensity of the feelings.

 

If you were to actually end up in this situation, you might be surprised at what you would do.

 

And honestly... if he can inflict that flaw on others, do you really believe you are immune from it forever?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Tenacity

[LFH]

You might, LFH. I have been in your shoes. And I understand the intensity of the feelings.

 

If you were to actually end up in this situation, you might be surprised at what you would do.

 

And honestly... if he can inflict that flaw on others, do you really believe you are immune from it forever?

 

I do logically understand that if it happens my reaction may be different than what I would expect, but I know myself very well. I am NOT a forgiving person. I do not have a problem walking away from someone who has hurt me, and while I may miss them, and be sorry for the way the friendship/relationship/etc ended, it doesn't change the actions.

 

I've walked away from people I loved a lot because of things they've done, behavior I couldn't reconcile myself with and hurts inflicted. It would devestate me, but it's unlikely that after a lifetime of responding the way I have that I'd change that aspect of myself for him.

 

I'm immune to nothing. I've never said it coudln't happen to me, I'm well aware that the potential is there. I just know that now, in this moment, what I have is reality and it is the way it is. Could that change tomorrow? Possibly.

Chances are, since we have no possibility of this being permanent, it will be a non-issue before that ever comes into play. I just hope that he takes steps to be truly happy before I'm no longer able to be in his life.

[beenburned]

LFH,

 

I am not surprised at all by your answer because when I asked my H what he would have done if I had been the one cheating in our marriage, he said exactly what you did.

 

When I asked why, he said nobody cheats on me and gets away with it. His personality has always been if someone does him wrong then they pay the consequences.

 

I am just the opposite of him. So I ask him if I was wrong to give him a second chance, he said no because he learned his lesson and will never cheat on me again.

 

Total hypocrisy at its finest!! But at least he was totally honest.

 

However, now that many years have past by since d-day, he makes a regular habit of telling me how he never wants to live without me!

[LFH]

LFH,

 

I am not surprised at all by your answer because when I asked my H what he would have done if I had been the one cheating in our marriage, he said exactly what you did.

 

When I asked why, he said nobody cheats on me and gets away with it. His personality has always been if someone does him wrong then they pay the consequences.

 

I am just the opposite of him. So I ask him if I was wrong to give him a second chance, he said no because he learned his lesson and will never cheat on me again.

 

Total hypocrisy at its finest!! But at least he was totally honest.

 

However, now that many years have past by since d-day, he makes a regular habit of telling me how he never wants to live without me!

I'm glad you've happily reconciled.

For me it isn't about them paying the consequences, it's just that I personally know that I am not capable of trusting someone once they've hurt me. I'd never be able to get past it, and I'd always hold it against them. That wouldn't be fair to either of us.

It's not about punishment or retribution, it's about me protecting me in the absence of the one I love doing so.

I admire those of you who are able to give another chance like you did... that's commendable, it truly impresses me.

[Got it]

BB - I think that is an interesting double standard. I do think there is some credence to what one does when they really go through it. I don't know if I could reconcile with someone if they cheated on me as I am not sure if I could forgive them in regards to I am not sure if I could not get caught in the crazy making checking and tracking and ever be able to get out of that piece of things. That once I found that they pulled the wool over my eyes and I found out, there would be a pin in that forever. I have been cheated on in a dating relationship and while I didn't want to end things in the beginning he did. We got back together a few times but there was always an arm's length approach to my heart and I was never that vulnerable with him again. He was good to mess around with but nothing more, I had lost any respect for him in that capacity.

 

I don't know if I could say to the person I cheated on, what your husband said to you. One I would worry about the frying pan beaming for my head, and two because I would feel that it would be my just desserts for having laid the foundation that I did.