Dealing with the abuse aspects of infidelity

[MissBee]

 

I try very hard not to do that. I am very aware that my MM has a lot of flaws and a lot of issues. The problem comes in that I can't say that the BS in my situation is a nice woman or that she is able to relate to people on a personal level or that she doesn't sabotage her own relationships. That doesn't mean that I don't think that others here do it. It doesn't mean I think she deserves him to be cheating on her, but it does make it hard for me to see her as a victim. That's wrong of me, but I can't change the way I view her. I've tried.

I can't talk about a situation from a perspective I haven't experienced.

 

He and I had a long talk about relationships and abuse and this entire topic today. I was going to share more than this but it gets tiring when it's implied we aren't trying to contribute and our motive is just trying to be nasty.

He did confirm that she knows we still sleep together, but that he has downplayed how often. I asked why he lies if she's aware and he said it's easier to keep the peace and that she likes to have something to tell people if they ask. It's consistent with her personality and I'm well aware that he has the ability to lie, so no need to point it out, but it answered questions for me.

 

 

I wasn't specifically thinking of your post btw LFH to be honest. You don't in every single post do what I have said, thankfully, so I can at least listen to your take, even when I don't always agree.

[AnotherRound]

I am touchy because you continually say, "yeah, sure you were abused, BUT..." There's always a BUT with you...We're discussing how BS's feel abused by infidelity, not WS's.

 

You invalidate in every single post...you say you're not, but you do.

 

LFH, I am honestly not talking about you, that was only directed at AR. Sometimes we will disagree (ok, maybe a lot of the time ) but you're at least willing to say, yeah I can see how you would feel that way and it sucks.

 

Well, if you need me to cater to you, then yeah, you're going to be offended. I am not responsible for your hurt - and I'm not going to apologize because I'm trying to add to a discussion and I don't see everything in black and white the way that you do. I'm sorry that you are hurt and defensive.

 

There is no but - I said what I said, it's in black and white, and you chose to take it and make it "but". I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. And I stand by what I said - abuse is valid if someone felt it, regardless of their label of BS, WS, AP, etc. I disagree that your feelings are more valid because you have the label of BS than someone who has the label of WS or AP. I think they are all equally valid.

[AnotherRound]

No, that's definitely not what you said. You didn't say an affair wasn't abusive--you attempted to justify people who have affairs as having been abused too.

 

 

Please read my posts again. I said that an affair is not innately abusive. That was the question. I disagreed. I do not think that affairs are abusive simply bc they exist - I think that there has to be certain behaviors within that affair that would then make it abusive. Unless, the person who was the BS felt abused - in that case, I wondered what they would think then if their WS said that the affair was bc the WS felt abused. Would they see their WSs feelings of abuse as valid as theirs? Or less valid?

 

I'm not justifying anything - just pointing out that there are WSs who report feeling abused by their BS. That's a fact - not a justification.

[eleanorrigby]

Unless, the person who was the BS felt abused - in that case, I wondered what they would think then if their WS said that the affair was bc the WS felt abused. Would they see their WSs feelings of abuse as valid as theirs? Or less valid?

 

But as has already been suggested, the question you are asking of the BS's is a threadjack and not the question the OP posted.

 

Why not start your own thread that you can take charge of instead of attempting to take over this one?

[AnotherRound]

You're adding nothing to the discussion but upset, and not just to me. But you already know that, don't you?

 

I'm adding the other side - and there are some who are interested in it, even if you are not. I'm trying to see it from an "all abused feelings are valid" and that isn't what you want to see. You want to blame - and that's okay, that's your right. I would rather try to see it from a big picture kind of thing in that any abuse is wrong - no matter who is doing it or what their label is.

 

And no, I participated bc I thought of an angle that didn't seem to be explored and wondered what people's take was on that. My question was simply, is all abuse valid or not? Because I believe it is - I believe that anyone who feels abuse is having valid feelings. If you don't want to accept that, so be it - it doesn't make it any less real or true.

 

Again, I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. If you insist on tinting everything I say with your perceptions that I'm invalidating you (when I'm truly not, and if I was, I could do so in a much more direct way) that is your choice.

[AnotherRound]

But as has already been suggested, the question you are asking of the BS's is a threadjack and not the question the OP posted.

 

Why not start your own thread that you can take charge of instead of attempting to take over this one?

 

Well, obviously, I thought it was on topic - or I would have posted a new thread. I answered the original question and that led to my question of "aren't all feelings of abuse valid?".

 

And I wasn't trying to "take over", lol... I was responding to people who directly commented to me.

 

It's fine, sorry to upset anyone - I thought it was a valid point to the OP. If not, disregard.

[MissBee]

Well, if you need me to cater to you, then yeah, you're going to be offended. I am not responsible for your hurt - and I'm not going to apologize because I'm trying to add to a discussion and I don't see everything in black and white the way that you do. I'm sorry that you are hurt and defensive.

 

There is no but - I said what I said, it's in black and white, and you chose to take it and make it "but". I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. And I stand by what I said - abuse is valid if someone felt it, regardless of their label of BS, WS, AP, etc. I disagree that your feelings are more valid because you have the label of BS than someone who has the label of WS or AP. I think they are all equally valid.

 

 

I have a question AR.

 

Would you agree that many abusers, let's say those who physically or sexually abuse others, were once victims of such abuse themselves?

 

I personally know many abusers suffered abuse themselves, and it is definitely valid. However, if their victims are discussing how their abuse affected them, would you think it was productive to the conversation to say to the ones currently dealing with the new abuse perpetrated to say "Well they were abused too, they were abused first, so your feelings aren't more valid. They are equally valid."Would you honestly do that in such a setting? I am seriously asking.

 

It is not that what you are saying has no merit.Just like in my example, it is true and has merit sometimes, yet in the context I mentioned, like in this one, it is totally unproductive and will come off as offensive to those discussing their experience. You say you don't think in black and white, but I also wonder how emotionally perceptive you are and if you can understand how to gauge a "room" and realize when your remarks will not be well received (true or not) or when they will seem offensive and inappropriate. That's a good skill to have as well, besides being analytic. Being analytic is fantastic but if one isn't adept at also reading people and being emotionally astute, you'll often end up misunderstood or offending people. This goes for others who post on the OW/OM forum saying "the truth" or having valid points, but in the context of the thread, it's off topic or seems inflammatory. They may be truly trying to help or they may simply be there to ruffle feathers...but in any case, they usually aren't received well.

[Decorative]

I'm adding the other side - and there are some who are interested in it, even if you are not. I'm trying to see it from an "all abused feelings are valid" and that isn't what you want to see. You want to blame - and that's okay, that's your right. I would rather try to see it from a big picture kind of thing in that any abuse is wrong - no matter who is doing it or what their label is.

 

And no, I participated bc I thought of an angle that didn't seem to be explored and wondered what people's take was on that. My question was simply, is all abuse valid or not? Because I believe it is - I believe that anyone who feels abuse is having valid feelings. If you don't want to accept that, so be it - it doesn't make it any less real or true.

 

Again, I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. If you insist on tinting everything I say with your perceptions that I'm invalidating you (when I'm truly not, and if I was, I could do so in a much more direct way) that is your choice.

 

Your response is not tangent to the OP.

 

There's another thread started about abused waywards and betrayeds.

 

I realize that thread is not designed for you to answer, as a quasi former OW.

 

So perhaps start another thread to discuss the topic with those people you feel are interested in your take on this issue. The other wayward/other people who are interested in your derail can explore the subject further there.

 

You are blaming the victims. You need to stop. As a person who claims to be psychologist, surely you can understand the issue here.

 

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[AnotherRound]

Once you again your attempt at leveling and moral equivalency of the betrayed spouse and the supposedly equivalent abused cheating spouse fails since you don't account for the behavior or participation of the affair partner.

 

What would you like me to say about the AP? That they were abusive to the BS? I think, in some cases, yes, they were - in other cases, no, bc the BS did not feel abused by the AP.

 

When my exH had an OW - I didn't feel abused by her at all - only by him. And he was lying to me, gaslighting, and that did feel abusive. His OW lied to me too, but that didn't feel abusive to me - I didn't feel hurt by it. So, in that case, the AP was not abusive - to me at least, as far as I know, not to my exH either.

 

I'm not sure why you think my opinion is invalid bc I didn't talk about the AP? What are you looking for there? If I think the AP is abusive? Bc again, I can't say that in every situation they are - that seems ludicrous to me to assume that every single AP in the world is abusive. The same that it seems ludicrous to say that every WS is abusive - or every BS is abusive. I'm just saying - it works all ways and all feelings of abuse are valid. None more valid than the other.

[AnotherRound]

I have a question AR.

 

Would you agree that many abusers, let's say those who physically or sexually abuse others, were once victims of such abuse themselves?

 

I personally know many abusers suffered abuse themselves, and it is definitely valid. However, if their victims are discussing how their abuse affected them, would you think it was productive to the conversation to say to the ones currently dealing with the new abuse perpetrated to say "Well they were abused too, they were abused first, so your feelings aren't more valid. They are equally valid."Would you honestly do that in such a setting? I am seriously asking.

 

It is not that what you are saying has no merit.Just like in my example, it is true and has merit sometimes, yet in the context I mentioned, like in this one, it is totally unproductive and will come off as offensive to those discussing their experience. You say you don't think in black and white, but I also wonder how emotionally perceptive you are and if you can understand how to gauge a "room" and realize when your remarks will not be well received (true or not) or when they will seem offensive and inappropriate. That's a good skill to have as well, besides being analytic. Being analytic is fantastic but if one isn't adept at also reading people and being emotionally astute, you'll often end up misunderstood or offending people. This goes for others who post on the OW/OM forum saying "the truth" or having valid points, but in the context of the thread, it's off topic or seems inflammatory. They may be truly trying to help or they may simply be there to ruffle feathers...but in any case, they usually aren't received well.

 

I see what you are saying - and this was a problem when I was posting here 6 months ago. I guess I was just hopeful that posters could put aside their baggage for a minute and have a discussion - not assume that I was trying to take a dig (I truly wasn't). I guess I get frustrated with the need to "cater" when I really just want to have a discussion. I'm not sure why those who are sensitive can't just let others who are not have a discussion without turning it into a personal issue?

 

I can gauge a room - it's just exhausting to have to do so on a discussion board when I'm really interested in discussing something. This was a good topic, and one that I am extremely interested in. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings, or invalidate anyone's feelings in any way - I was honestly just curious about whether or not posters could see that there are sometimes WSs who felt abused by inaction - not something that would normally be considered blatant "abuse".

 

You're right - this was the wrong place to try to discuss it. I should have started a new thread as ER suggested, but I truly believed that I was on topic - just a natural progression of the conversation. I have a feeling that had I started a new topic though, even if I had started it in the Other forum, that it would have been labeled as inflammatory - even thought that was not my intent at all.

 

I apologize to anyone who was upset by my pov or my discussion - I was honestly just interested in whether or not people thought some feelings of abuse were more valid than others.

[Robert]

No, the thread topic was "is an affair abusive" and I said no, not innately

 

Correct Anotheround,

 

Lets keep the posts on topic posters, as Anotheround pointed out the the topic is "Is an affair abusive"

 

Let's also quit bringing in poster's stories here unless they bring it in.

 

Thanks

[MissBee]

I see what you are saying - and this was a problem when I was posting here 6 months ago. I guess I was just hopeful that posters could put aside their baggage for a minute and have a discussion - not assume that I was trying to take a dig (I truly wasn't). I guess I get frustrated with the need to "cater" when I really just want to have a discussion. I'm not sure why those who are sensitive can't just let others who are not have a discussion without turning it into a personal issue?

 

I can gauge a room - it's just exhausting to have to do so on a discussion board when I'm really interested in discussing something. This was a good topic, and one that I am extremely interested in. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings, or invalidate anyone's feelings in any way - I was honestly just curious about whether or not posters could see that there are sometimes WSs who felt abused by inaction - not something that would normally be considered blatant "abuse".

 

You're right - this was the wrong place to try to discuss it. I should have started a new thread as ER suggested, but I truly believed that I was on topic - just a natural progression of the conversation. I have a feeling that had I started a new topic though, even if I had started it in the Other forum, that it would have been labeled as inflammatory - even thought that was not my intent at all.

 

I apologize to anyone who was upset by my pov or my discussion - I was honestly just interested in whether or not people thought some feelings of abuse were more valid than others.

 

Gauging a room has never exhausted me personally. Not gauging it is what is exhausting, as then people get offended or misunderstand and I have to continuously explain and backtrack. That's a waste of time for me...so I gauge before I proceed. It's very efficient...on message boards and in real life. The two are the same in that the results will be the same if you don't: unproductive conversations, unnecessary drama and upsets.

 

You should make a new topic to further the discussion. Don't mean to be snarky, but I could have told you that trying to say that on the infidelity board was not going to get you the lovely discussion you wanted. I mean that is part of being able to read "rooms", feeling things out and seeing what will gain the kind of responses you want. Right now I'm taking a class which is essentially a methods workshop for field researchers, and one thing we're learning is knowing your context and field site, understanding the culture etc. as that will stop you from wasting time asking participants things which won't be viable, as they may be offensive, don't translate culturally, they don't get what you're saying etc. It will only be frustrating to you and hinder your work if you don't get the feel first of your context so that you can ask the right questions and act appropriately to get the types of data you want.

[Realist3]

I think Realist is just pulling our leg now.

 

 

Why would you suggest that? 'Abuse' is very well defined. Abuse is meant to purposefully hurt someone. Infidelity in and of itself does not meet that standard for the definition of the word.

[Realist3]

Evidently some people would like to lump in being hurt by someone else as 'abuse'. I can kick you in the face, but it does not equal abuse.

[MissBee]

Why would you suggest that? 'Abuse' is very well defined. Abuse is meant to purposefully hurt someone. Infidelity in and of itself does not meet that standard for the definition of the word.

 

This is false.

 

An abuser does not have to consciously mean it to be hurtful to abuse.

 

Have you ever watched an interview of pedophiles explaining their actions...almost none think they are being hurtful or were intending hurt. Many even frame it love or they admit it was wrong (like infidelity) but did it for their own end and not as a means to hurt the person.

 

For purposes of discussion: see wikipedia's long list of what counts as abuse.

 

Abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Furious]

I guess some people think abuse is considered only punishable by the legal system, if it ain't against the law and you can't go to prison for it then it's not abuse.

 

This is a straw man tactic.

 

A WS can lie to their spouse, cheat on them, possibly give them an STD, destroy their family and think it's not abuse cause Judge Judy can't do a damn thing about.

 

I call this a cheaters loophole, and it's used quite often to deflect ownership of the abuse they commit.

[Spark1111]

I'm adding the other side - and there are some who are interested in it, even if you are not. I'm trying to see it from an "all abused feelings are valid" and that isn't what you want to see. You want to blame - and that's okay, that's your right. I would rather try to see it from a big picture kind of thing in that any abuse is wrong - no matter who is doing it or what their label is.

 

And no, I participated bc I thought of an angle that didn't seem to be explored and wondered what people's take was on that. My question was simply, is all abuse valid or not? Because I believe it is - I believe that anyone who feels abuse is having valid feelings. If you don't want to accept that, so be it - it doesn't make it any less real or true.

 

Again, I am responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. If you insist on tinting everything I say with your perceptions that I'm invalidating you (when I'm truly not, and if I was, I could do so in a much more direct way) that is your choice.

 

So you hurt me, so I will hurt you even more? Yes, could be. Some may think like that and feel justified in hurting back by having an affair.

 

This is under the heading of two wrongs DO make it right?

 

And to be a willing participant in hurting back is at that very least, hypocritical because you would never want to be lied to and deceived yourself, and at the very worst, show how incapable your AP is of dealing with an "abusive" spouse.

 

I will reiterate that being ignored and invalidated are relational issues which should be addressed and rectified if possible. Ah...yawn.

 

Cheating in secret and lying daily to my face is abusive.

 

BIG, big difference, IMO.

[Spark1111]

I guess some people think abuse is considered only punishable by the legal system, if it ain't against the law and you can't go to prison for it then it's not abuse.

 

This is a straw man tactic.

 

A WS can lie to their spouse, cheat on them, possibly give them an STD, destroy their family and think it's not abuse cause Judge Judy can't do a damn thing about.

 

I call this a cheaters loophole, and it's used quite often to deflect ownership of the abuse they commit.

 

the courts just grew weary of the he said, she said drama that was clogging the courts, causing divorce litigators to grow rich and hurting minor children in a process lasting FOR YEARS because of its volatility.

 

But if you look at the court of public opinion, many of the rich and famous fall far from grace and popularity when their infidelity is exposed. General Petraeus, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mark Sanford, Tiger Woods, Leann Rimes, John Edwards...to name a few off the top of my head....for the VERY reasons you named in your post.

[Spark1111]

You lost the second part of my post which clearly states that I was thinking of the healing of the BSs:

 

 

 

An expert's view on "Blaming":

 

"Presenting yourself as a victim and blaming others, especially your ex and the third party, won't make you feel better - but it's a way to feel less vulnerable when you're the betrayed spouse. As a victim, your energy goes into soliciting sympathy without taking responsibility. You settle for blaming others rather than expressing your emotions. Your message is, 'Somebody did me wrong, so you owe me.' Victims are angry people and it comes through."

(Emily Brown, Affairs)

 

I hope all of you will heal from the awful experience infidelity is for BSs but unfortunately LS seems more likely to keep BSs from healing than to help them heal.

 

The more you pick and choose what to quote from Emily Brown, the more I think the good doctor has her head waaaay up her azz.

 

OF COURSE being the eternal victim will hurt you.

 

You have to heal and grow and VENT and eventually, GOD willing, you will do so in 2 to 5 years with the aid of good counseling and a remorseful spouse, especially if you LOVED them and want to have a successful reconciliation and a happy relationship.

 

Same is true for OW and OM. As long as you are eternally justifying the serving of crumbs and not being first in your true love's life and commitment, I'd say there was some work to do there.

 

BSs KNOW we have been victimized and are working damn hard to overcome it.

 

APs won't even admit how victimized they are! You guys have a much harder row to hoe, IMO.

[waterwoman]

 

And, just wondering if any of the BSs who were commenting that it is innately abuse - no matter the circumstances (if there was lying or not, etc.) would agree with the many WSs who claim that they felt abused and that is why they chose to have an affair? Because they didn't feel like it was "fair" that they should have to give up half their lives and time with their children bc their BS was neglectful (aka abusive)? I would like BSs to answer honestly and without saying "it's negated because he/she had an affair" bc that is exactly the point - many WSs feel abused prior to seeking another relationship. Is everyone in agreement that is bs but that the other way (BSs being abused by the affair) is universally true?

 

I would respectfully suggest that some of the 'many' WSs that state abuse caused their infidelity might be justifying their behaviour after the event. How many times on here have we read mw/mm admitting that as the affair progressed the more holes they picked in a previously ok marriage?

 

Not all situations are the same. Not all WSs were abused in their marriages. But to lie , gaslight and betray someone you vowed to love and care for is, by its nature abusive IMO. So all infidelity is abusive.

 

Our marriage pre-affair was not good. I'll admit that. Because of choices and actions we both made over the years. Neither of us were abusive. Neither of us made a concerted effort to fix things. We were rabbits in the headlights. I can understand how the affair happened but it wasn't caused by abuse.

[MissBee]

The more you pick and choose what to quote from Emily Brown, the more I think the good doctor has her head waaaay up her azz.

 

OF COURSE being the eternal victim will hurt you.

 

You have to heal and grow and VENT and eventually, GOD willing, you will do so in 2 to 5 years with the aid of good counseling and a remorseful spouse, especially if you LOVED them and want to have a successful reconciliation and a happy relationship.

Same is true for OW and OM. As long as you are eternally justifying the serving of crumbs and not being first in your true love's life and commitment, I'd say there was some work to do there.

 

BSs KNOW we have been victimized and are working damn hard to overcome it.

 

APs won't even admit how victimized they are! You guys have a much harder row to hoe, IMO.

 

The funny part is, Emily Brown is not a doctor. She is a licensed clinical social worker. She has neither a PhD nor PsyD in psychology. So while she does counseling, she is certainly not an expert, in the sense that she does all this research on affairs and is peer-reviewed etc. She is an "authority on affairs" according to the back of her book. You can call yourself anything you want on your own book's cover lol.

 

One need not have a PhD or PsyD to be insightful; however, she was brought up by trinity so much I decided to look her up as I expected her to be a leading expert in the field of psychology....but was quite surprised (not really actually ) to find that she isn't even a psychologist. Let me be clear that I do not think that just because you're not a psychologist means you have nothing to offer...but it does make a difference when one considers this person's theories and research or lack thereof, and the fact that the rigor of the PhD or PsyD sees to it that one is peer-reviewed and has more checks and balances of one's research and theories; however, a social worker can write a book without having to go through all of that.

Edited March 10, 2013 by MissBee

[anne1707]

I should probably ask similar questions of WSs. Do you consider some of your behaviour to have been abusive to your BS? If not, why not? Have you defined "abuse" in your mind to exclude whatever it is you are doing to your spouse (eg dishonesty, gaslighting etc) and, out of interest, do you pretend to your AP that you're not doing any of this?

 

Yes I do consider some of my past behaviours as abusive.

 

I was lying to my husband. I was not giving my all to the marriage. I was controlling the situation - and him - to suit my needs. I was making life difficult for him. He could not figure out what was going on. Until Dday, that is when it all made sense to him as why it had all been "so hard" to make things work between us. I spent so much time causing him pain and whether I wanted to or not, I did that.

 

And yes, it is a conscious decision to cause such abuse. Unless you're somehow going to try to argue that having an affair is not a conscious decision.

[OpenBook]

I will reiterate that being ignored and invalidated are relational issues which should be addressed and rectified if possible. Ah...yawn.

 

And that attitude right there folks is what leads to a cheating spouse. Being ignored and invalidated IS abuse in a M. End of story.

[beenburned]

anne,

 

Thank you for your honesty!!!

 

I experienced exactly what you described when my H was cheating.

 

I have always been a happy optimistic person, but this behavior from him sent me into a deep depression!( that I eventually got medicine in order to cope on a daily basis)

 

It is emotional abuse, and it is just plain mean and totally unneccessary! It would be so much healthier for the person to just divorce, rather than cheat.

[OpenBook]

LMAO - true enough. I've been reading infidelity support boards on and off for years and if I've seen one clear pattern emerge, it's the cheating husband begging to be given another chance 99% of the time.

 

You mean that and the other clear pattern that "emerges" - when the MM contacts the OW again once the dust settles.

 

There's all kinds of abuse patterns in the way people treat each other.