Would Have Liked to Talk About Alternative Spirituality

[Grumpybutfun]

This forum is really quiet compared to other Mind and Body sites I have been to because from what I have read, you can't have a conversation on anything but Chrisianity. Someone in another thread asked for quotes that correlated Buddhism and Jesus' viewpoints (which I thought was interesting as jesus and Buddha are both peacemakers)and someone answered that only Jesus' word matters. That doesn't really invite conversation.

I would love to talk about alternative spirituality, or even Buddhism with Taramaiden, but the threads with anything not having to do with Christianity or organized religions get hijacked. Please feel free to Ignore me as I don't think I will be writing on here anyway since I don't want to talk/argue about Jesus, or Christianity and have tons of Bible verses thrown at me. Very disappointing as I am sure I am not the first person who has been turned off by this to write here.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[TheFinalWord]

This forum is really quiet compared to other Mind and Body sites I have been to because from what I have read, you can't have a conversation on anything but Chrisianity. Someone in another thread asked for quotes that correlated Buddhism and Jesus' viewpoints (which I thought was interesting as jesus and Buddha are both peacemakers)and someone answered that only Jesus' word matters. That doesn't really invite conversation.

I would love to talk about alternative spirituality, or even Buddhism with Taramaiden, but the threads with anything not having to do with Christianity or organized religions get hijacked. Please feel free to Ignore me as I don't think I will be writing on here anyway since I don't want to talk/argue about Jesus, or Christianity and have tons of Bible verses thrown at me. Very disappointing as I am sure I am not the first person who has been turned off by this to write here.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

So sorry if I offended or annoyed you. I hope you will be patient with me (us). Dialoguing with people that have very different opinions is challenging, especially in spirituality, which for many people is the core of their identity. But I have found that doing so has helped refine me and make me a better person. I think you would have a lot to contribute if you would like. If you do decide to start a topic I would recommend just being specific in what you want to discuss and then like quickjoe said if a topic goes off the OP, just alert the mods. I will say that many threads do go off-topic here, but often these are positive and can make for interesting dialogues (IMHO anyway and we have all been guilty of diverting threads in this forum, myself included ).

 

It's normally a small group of us that post regularly here so if someone really annoys you, you will be able to identify quick and can put people on ignore. For me, I do not put anyone on ignore b/c I like the challenge of learning to appreciate those with very polar opposite opinions. I think a "devil's advocate" (no pun intended lol) can refine my view points. For me I believe putting people on ignore says more about me than the other person...but that option is available if you would like to use it. An internet forum is interesting but definitely should not be a source of major stress. Take care.

[Feelin Frisky]

I visited that other thread. While I like the thread starter my own spirituality comes off as invalid. It does with everyone whose version of "spirituality" involves some kind of hierarchy in which faith in someone else's image, words or powers are worshiped'held aloft and celebrated and the self, by default, prostrate, yielded or diminished. It did not take me five minutes to come to my own rationalization of spirituality being something about or outside of animal hierarchy where human beings excercize a spirit that suspend territorial ism and judgement in favor of potential synergy, so why should I think I can persuade anyone else who is ensconced in the hierarchical model in a minute's worth of text on and internet forum. I liken my own process to one of having had to rip myself out of a secondary placenta--one that was put on me as a child without negotiation or contract in which my parents and my part of society's figments of faith/lore gave flimsy and superficial reason to ways things are. One may think the job is over at becoming an atheist, but that's really only about halfway. It's learning that even thinking of yourself as an atheist is still giving great power to something that should not even exist at all and you should have no knowledge of whatsoever. God just becomes funny after that--not the subject of antagonism, just a joke to laugh off.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Feelin Frisky

[Grumpybutfun]

Actually I don't think arguing religion is harmful or bad or challenging if that is what is requested by OP. I just do not find it necessary unless two people just want to have a go as a testament (no pun intended) of their knowledge of the words, or the dogma or the scriptures involved in the religion. As a youth when I was still trying to prove my mettle, I argued things of that nature in order to validate those thoughts and opinions and to feel the defeat of others and/or to join in their posturing. Arguing semantics has been a favorite pastime of Theologists/armchair philosophers for hundreds of years, I imagine. What I don't fully understand is arguing for your religion if no one has even mentioned your religion or if they only mention spirituality or God. Clearly, spirituality and God are not exclusive. I also don't understand saying, "I am right about my views and all of this other stuff is phooey." It may be your conviction to do so, as is the custom of some religions, but it doesn't invite conversation in an internet forum. The sharing of prayers, spiritual details and scriptures, when the OP starts off the thread stating that this is what I would like clarified or argued, is absolutely warranted in whatever way the poster would like to convey them. Everyone's views are important.

I am just giving my viewpoints as I see a major disconnect concerning the numbers of people that could be posting here if the rigidity in expression was reigned in just a smidge. We are all trying to become better people or we wouldn't visit places like this. Same journey, different cars.

 

quickjoe- You are correct. I had some particular things on my mind. Nothing earth shattering or guaranteed to garner any peace prizes, but things that roll around my mind at night.

 

The Final Word- That is some moniker you have...very intimidating and my expectations were very high after seeing it. Thanks for the welcome. You do not need to apologize as this isn't something anyone is doing wrong. I am just suggesting that this may be a reason there isn't as much traffic on here as other Spiritual Forums. I could be absolutely wrong on the matter.

 

feelinfrisky-

Your post is interesting in its own right and should have its own thread.

 

I am actually surprised at the civility I received. Perhaps I will post my thoughts on spirituality.

 

Grumps

[pie2]

Perhaps I will post my thoughts on spirituality.

 

I hope you do, Grumps .

 

We are all trying to become better people or we wouldn't visit places like this.

 

 

As a youth when I was still trying to prove my mettle, I argued things of that nature in order to validate those thoughts and opinions and to feel the defeat of others and/or to join in their posturing.

 

I love this...isn't that so true about arguing to 'be right', rather than to actually learn something! I love your honesty, Grumpybutfun...not that I can relate....I would never do that

[BetheButterfly]

This forum is really quiet compared to other Mind and Body sites I have been to because from what I have read, you can't have a conversation on anything but Chrisianity.

 

I think one of the reasons why here in the Spirituality and Religious Beliefs section on Loveshack that many posters, include me, post about Christian beliefs is because many of the members that are interested in this section are Christians, though we don't all believe the same in every area.

 

As for other forums, I suppose it depends on the members too.

 

Someone in another thread asked for quotes that correlated Buddhism and Jesus' viewpoints (which I thought was interesting as jesus and Buddha are both peacemakers)

I agree that both Jesus and Buddha are both peacemakers.

 

and someone answered that only Jesus' word matters. That doesn't really invite conversation.

It really depends how one looks at it. I personally think it does invite conversation. Conversation doesn't always mean people agree on everything. In many interfaith discussions, members of different faiths/spiritual beliefs do consider other beliefs to be wrong. Atheists also consider Theists to be wrong, and vise versa. That's just a normal part of discussions between people with different beliefs. What is important though is to be kind and respectful in spite of disagreeing.

 

I would love to talk about alternative spirituality, or even Buddhism with Taramaiden,

You can, actually. I did... I'll look it up. I didn't ask just Taramaiden; I was happy for any Buddhist to answer. I have asked questions about Native American beliefs too, but I didn't get much answers to my questions about Native American beliefs. Anyways, you can start your own thread discussing things, and people who are interested will usually respond if they want.

l but the threads with anything not having to do with Christianity or organized religions get hijacked.

There have been threads that have to do with Christianity, that get "hijacked" you could say by Atheists. It's annoying sometimes but people do have freedom to express what they think. Now, maybe it would be an interesting idea to prevent different views from posting unless specifically asked by the OP, but that does very much infringe on freedom of speech.

Please feel free to Ignore me as I don't think I will be writing on here anyway since I don't want to talk/argue about Jesus, or Christianity and have tons of Bible verses thrown at me. Very disappointing as I am sure I am not the first person who has been turned off by this to write here.

I love Jesus and Bible verses, and when I copy/paste Bible verses, I don't consider myself to be throwing them at anybody, but rather I consider myself to share them. When I read other Scriptures, like the Buddhist Scriptures, I don't consider people to be throwing them at me, or when I quote them, for me to be throwing them at others. I like learning about other beliefs, and reading other Scriptures or books that are important to people of other beliefs. I think a lot of one's perspective really depends on if one sees in a positive or negative light.

 

I am sorry if my quoting Bible verses offends you. Sometimes it offends me and turns me "off" when Atheists write what they believe concerning what i believe, but I am hopefully growing in not being as sensitive to what they say/write but rather am growing to appreciate and understand their point of view even though I don't share their point of view.

 

Anyways, welcome to the forum, and I won't share any Bible verses with you, or mention my Shepherd to you anymore! Blessings!

Edited March 11, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[TheFinalWord]

The Final Word- That is some moniker you have...very intimidating and my expectations were very high after seeing it. Thanks for the welcome. You do not need to apologize as this isn't something anyone is doing wrong. I am just suggesting that this may be a reason there isn't as much traffic on here as other Spiritual Forums. I could be absolutely wrong on the matter.

 

Hi Grumps,

 

Moniker is supposed to represent spiritual armor Symbolic of some things going on in my life...ever have those times when you have to rely on something greater, put on your spiritual armor, and press on? That's me right now Many times in my life I have had to rely on God to get me through a situation. If you wonder why I am passionate about my faith, it is because in my life I have found God comes through every time, especially when I am the most vulnerable.

 

I appreciate the feedback and your opinion is valid. Look forward to seeing you around the forums.

[Grumpybutfun]

Anyways, welcome to the forum, and I won't share any Bible verses with you, or mention my Shepherd to you anymore! Blessings!

 

Bethebutterfly-

I think you misunderstood my point. I understand that sharing religions is part of some people's spiritual journey and I know it is good to discuss and share those things. However, spirituality to some has nothing to do with religion. I believe in God and am very spiritual but I do not adhere to one religion though I think they are all interesting and valuable in a scholarly and historical context. Therefore, if someone is commenting on God in a general way, it isn't necessary to present relgion in every case, just the ones who mention religion.

Atheists and theists have tons to argue about...the existence of a deity. However, spiritual people, people who are spiritual and believe in God in a peaceful, loving way as an interconnecting energy, and Religious people who live by certain dogma are three different types of people. (Which is not to say that there can't be some people who believe in a little of each of these three.)

In other words, it is open minded to accept that some people are not religious and will not find any comfort in words from a text which they do not think of as anything more than a book. This isn't just true of Christianity, but of all books which follow a set pattern of seperating people due to their devoutness and passing judgement. It isn't that I don't like Christianity, I just wondered if maybe the reason there aren't more people here writing is due to this need to share absolutes of your religion while some people are talking about an entirely different component of spirituality. The compulsion to share your religious thoughts can sometimes be more harmful than good if you don't listen to what the OP needs. That is all I was saying. For instance, the guy who got me interested in writing here in the first place was interested in spirituality and God and said religion triggered him. Ablewarrior said he was triggered by things from his childhood involving Christianity and yet people introduced their Christian dogma to him as though it would somehow make him feel better, and a few people lectured and preached as though the poor man hadn't heard the same stuff his entire childhood. I was incredulous as a new reader to the site reading this. The I read other non-religious threads and found alot of the same thing in them. Therefore, this isn't about you writng your Bible verses or mentioning Jesus, it is about helping the OP, or sharing with the OP while listening to what they are asking for.

I am not offended at all and if I ask a religious question or want to share a religious thought, please feel free to share Bible verses or quotes by C.S. Lewis or anyone else who has inspired you. I would also suggest you read Thomas More as he has alot in common with Lewis, and I tihnk you would enjoy his work.

Grumps

 

The Final Word-

I am imagining you in an armor of strong conviction and that is a good thing. Yes, I have had those times when I needed the extra care. In fact, that is why spirituality is so important to me also. I am a thinker and unfortunately I have many questions I cannot answer, but I do have an absolute belief in a benevolent creator, a God of love and kindness who gives us strength and courage to fight the battles that need to be fought.

Grumps

Edited March 11, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[Feelin Frisky]

...Clearly, spirituality and God are not exclusive. ...

 

In my view they are. Here's my reasoning: unless you believe in the folklore of ghosts and supernatural apparitions. it seems to be very clear that there is only one nature that we experience. The constants of that nature are not periodically suspended for divine intervention. All the evidence found in actual nature points to a natural continuum of time without gaps or asterisks. If you and I had not been told about this thing called "god", there would be no event or presence in our practical tangible realities that would cause us to think of anything as "god". We know we don't live on a flat world sandwiched between a heaven and a hell but live on an orb which spins on an axis and orbits a star. The phenomenon we call "weather" is explainable in natural terms that relate to this nature of motion where heat from the star cause weather. In ancient times people did not know this and the thing we take for granted as weather was a daily life or death matter. It makes sense for people to be so desperate for fortunate weather as to beg a dieity, invent rituals and so forth. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day so once favorable weather coincided with ritual request for it, the belief took hold that there is a special formula and only some people know how to make the weather respond to ritual.

 

That all aside now, it is "nature" from which we come and nature we ARE. And in nature, especially in mammals, there is a natural order called hierarchy. The bigger, stronger, wiser, richer, better-looking being--no matter what species, be it man or dog, there is a "pack" dynamic where few assert power over many. The thing we call god is just a manifestation of animal order--we see this being in our own image intervening in nature to separate man from the beast. That is just wrong. And as I said nothing in nature reflects any suspension of constants which define reality. Belief in a "personal god" is "anthropocentric"--meaning that man either knowingly or unknowingly deems him or herself the reason the universe and its contents exist and therefore they are the benefactors of providence by a higher creature. In truth, the universe does not revolve around us and we are inconsequential to it. We could all die in a nuclear war as what almost happened, or be smashed to smithereens by an asteroid, and the universe will proceed with no notice of humanity's departure. Therefore belief in this thing called god is a yielding to animal impulse--the very opposite of capacity we also have to put aside animal impulse and rise above territorialism and contentiousness over things other animals fight over.

 

Spirituality is subjective in any perspective but I see it as strongest when super-nature is absolutely voided as any kind of consideration and nature is embraced for it's fascinating depth and scope. The spirit in spirituality is not immorality or super-natural--it is something more akin to "extra-nature"--i.e. the living inside of nature with the capacity to not be compelled only by nature. It's the spirit to create, cooperate, endure, suspend territorialism, choose the opposite of hate instead of yielding to the impulse, it's risking exposure for the sake that there are things in others that are good which cannot be "judged" by immediate appearances. Belief does not a fact make. So, no one can say that there is any kind of super-nature or that there is not. But it is fact that belief in super-nature creates grounds for contentiousness, hierarchical territorialism, hostile condition, close mindedness--all of which are animal and contra-spiritual.

[TheFinalWord]

Bethebutterfly-

The Final Word-

I am imagining you in an armor of strong conviction and that is a good thing. Yes, I have had those times when I needed the extra care. In fact, that is why spirituality is so important to me also. I am a thinker and unfortunately I have many questions I cannot answer, but I do have an absolute belief in a benevolent creator, a God of love and kindness who gives us strength and courage to fight the battles that need to be fought.

Grumps

 

Hi Grumps,

 

I am with you on that! I have found that when it comes to anything in life in which our knowledge is limited, for each question we answer, a dozen new questions arise. I believe it is called Einstein's circle of light

 

I find this is even more true in spirituality. I use bible as my foundation, but even then there are many questions which are left unanswered. For myself, this is where faith comes in, which for me entails trusting in God even when I do not have a clue what is going on. In my life I have found that God builds our faith in him over time (all relationships take time to get to know someone) through trials, which makes trusting him regarding the unknowns in life, easier (albeit never perfectly satisfied; Paul said we know only in part, like looking into a hazy mirror).

 

This is where I agree with you about religions and dogmas. For me being a Christian is not about rules and regulations, but a relationship with Christ (I know that sounds cliche). This relationship is cultivated through faith. Which is why someone can know a lot about the bible, follow every religious practice to the "t" and yet not know God. This was the case Jesus made to the religious leaders of his day. They knew the bible inside and out, yet could not discern God when he was standing right in front of them haha They used religious dogma to beat everyone upside the head with their standards, and in the process acted like they were holier than thou. Meanwhile prostitutes, tax collectors, and thieves were the ones that followed Jesus. Conclusion for me is that head knowledge is inadequate for finding God; humility and genuine seeking is what is required.

Edited March 11, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[Grumpybutfun]

In my view they are. Here's my reasoning: unless you believe in the folklore of ghosts and supernatural apparitions. it seems to be very clear that there is only one nature that we experience. The constants of that nature are not periodically suspended for divine intervention. All the evidence found in actual nature points to a natural continuum of time without gaps or asterisks. If you and I had not been told about this thing called "god", there would be no event or presence in our practical tangible realities that would cause us to think of anything as "god". We know we don't live on a flat world sandwiched between a heaven and a hell but live on an orb which spins on an axis and orbits a star. The phenomenon we call "weather" is explainable in natural terms that relate to this nature of motion where heat from the star cause weather. In ancient times people did not know this and the thing we take for granted as weather was a daily life or death matter. It makes sense for people to be so desperate for fortunate weather as to beg a dieity, invent rituals and so forth. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day so once favorable weather coincided with ritual request for it, the belief took hold that there is a special formula and only some people know how to make the weather respond to ritual.

 

That all aside now, it is "nature" from which we come and nature we ARE. And in nature, especially in mammals, there is a natural order called hierarchy. The bigger, stronger, wiser, richer, better-looking being--no matter what species, be it man or dog, there is a "pack" dynamic where few assert power over many. The thing we call god is just a manifestation of animal order--we see this being in our own image intervening in nature to separate man from the beast. That is just wrong. And as I said nothing in nature reflects any suspension of constants which define reality. Belief in a "personal god" is "anthropocentric"--meaning that man either knowingly or unknowingly deems him or herself the reason the universe and its contents exist and therefore they are the benefactors of providence by a higher creature. In truth, the universe does not revolve around us and we are inconsequential to it. We could all die in a nuclear war as what almost happened, or be smashed to smithereens by an asteroid, and the universe will proceed with no notice of humanity's departure. Therefore belief in this thing called god is a yielding to animal impulse--the very opposite of capacity we also have to put aside animal impulse and rise above territorialism and contentiousness over things other animals fight over.

 

Spirituality is subjective in any perspective but I see it as strongest when super-nature is absolutely voided as any kind of consideration and nature is embraced for it's fascinating depth and scope. The spirit in spirituality is not immorality or super-natural--it is something more akin to "extra-nature"--i.e. the living inside of nature with the capacity to not be compelled only by nature. It's the spirit to create, cooperate, endure, suspend territorialism, choose the opposite of hate instead of yielding to the impulse, it's risking exposure for the sake that there are things in others that are good which cannot be "judged" by immediate appearances. Belief does not a fact make. So, no one can say that there is any kind of super-nature or that there is not. But it is fact that belief in super-nature creates grounds for contentiousness, hierarchical territorialism, hostile condition, close mindedness--all of which are animal and contra-spiritual.

 

FF-

And this is why I started the other thread on why we search. If we are just a part of the energy, then why do we have so many questions and want to search for answers. I, too, am a huge believer in natural world order, that we are animals who have evolved into logical, world-centric egoists, an inherent of metaphysical principle. Therefore, the energy we project is complicated.

In my native culture, animism fully influenced my view of how the world is alive in every way. Cherokee believe that the world is a living, breathing pulse of energy and that the owl and cougar, who stayed awake during the creation of the world, are all-seeing and therefore are our spirit guides. By this, I always see animals as us, not seperate from us. Hierarchy isn't necessarily prevalent in animism. Though I was also raised with Protestant religion, my focus and viewpoints come from my grandparents who handed down mythologies, ceremonies and song. I guess, because of that, God is us, all of us, including the trees, the sun, the moon, and the universe. Every particle is God. Hence, my interest in Buddhist philosophy. God is not a man in the sky.

When I said that God and spirituality isn't exclusive, I meant together they aren't exclusive to one religion. Obviously, apart they are exclusive to personal perspectives. Sorry that wasn't very clear.

Some good thoughts here. I will ponder them today.

Grumps

Edited March 12, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[Grumpybutfun]

Hi Grumps,

 

I am with you on that! I have found that when it comes to anything in life in which our knowledge is limited, for each question we answer, a dozen new questions arise. I believe it is called Einstein's circle of light

 

The Final Word-

I think the circle of light theory is correct. The more I know, the more I know I know very little, but the more I want to learn. I was once told that knowledge for knowledge's sake was hubris, but I just chalked that viewpoint up as someone who didn't enjoy the mysteries of the universe or the spirit. I enjoy the mystery, and I enjoy the search.

If you don't mind sharing sometime, can you tell me what the moniker "The Final Word" means to you? Very interested in particular meanings to names.

Grumps

[BetheButterfly]

Bethebutterfly-

I think you misunderstood my point. I understand that sharing religions is part of some people's spiritual journey and I know it is good to discuss and share those things. However, spirituality to some has nothing to do with religion. I believe in God and am very spiritual but I do not adhere to one religion though I think they are all interesting and valuable in a scholarly and historical context. Therefore, if someone is commenting on God in a general way, it isn't necessary to present relgion in every case, just the ones who mention religion.

 

Ah ok. I agree with you that people can be spiritual without religion. The reason I shared the Bible verses about Jesus and his teachings to love in the other thread though is because the poster said he came from an intolerant and abusive Baptist background. I came from a Baptist background too, not an intolerant and abusive one, but rather one that emphasizes Jesus' teachings to love. People who call themselves Christians yet do not love are not truly following Jesus. That was my point in the other thread.

 

As for spiritual, I think, if I remember correctly, that I also shared in that thread where Jesus says that God is Spirit. Jesus advocates spiritual lives, not necessarily simply "religious" ones. Jesus scolded the religious leaders of his day and showed the people that Love is what matters.

 

I think Love and Spirit when linked together are very powerful. What do you think?

 

Atheists and theists have tons to argue about...the existence of a deity.

 

True. And Theists of different groups do too. It's always been very interesting.

 

However, spiritual people, people who are spiritual and believe in God in a peaceful, loving way as an interconnecting energy, and Religious people who live by certain dogma are three different types of people. (Which is not to say that there can't be some people who believe in a little of each of these three.)

 

Hmm. I haven't thought of that. 3 types:

 

1. Spiritual people

2. Spiritual people who believe in God in a peaceful, loving way as an interconnecting energy

3. Religious people who live by certain dogma

 

Does #1. mean spiritual people who do not believe in God yet live in a peaceful, loving way as an interconnecting energy too, yes? People like Angelina Jolie would be in 1. , whereas I hope I am in #2. I do not want to be in #3 because I don't want to live by a certain dogma, though I do want to live by Love: God's love and love of people for each other. Love is not a dogma, right?

 

What exactly entails a dogma? A list of rules in order to get rewards/avoid punishment?

 

In other words, it is open minded to accept that some people are not religious.

 

Agreed.

 

and will not find any comfort in words from a text which they do not think of as anything more than a book

 

Sharing what comforts oneself may or may not bring comfort to others; that's understandable. For me, it does bring me comfort to know that Jesus taught loving one's neighbor as oneself, each other, and even one's enemies. Sadly, so many people who claim they believe in Jesus don't follow his teachings or example.

 

As for books, there are thousands of books that are not considered by anyone Sacred Scriptures that can bring comfort. One can share text that comforts them, though people are so diverse that what comforts one might not comfort another.

 

Yesterday I was talking to my sister who suffers with bipolar disorder. Bipolar has to do with the chemical imbalance of the neurotransmitters in the brain, and presents very difficult challenges. (My Dad has bipolar, and we think that his Mom did too.) I told her about Nick Vujicic, who even though he doesn't have bipolar, he has no arms and legs. Have you ever heard of Nick Vujicic? I haven't read any of the books he's dictated yet, but I want to! She said thanks and drew strength in remembering that there are people who suffer worse difficulties yet enjoy life in spite of those difficulties. I think that Nick Vjuicic's fight for a purposeful life "without limits" can comfort many people, much more actually than ancient texts can. Love is timeless.

 

Here's Nick Vujicic speaking at a conference:

 

This isn't just true of Christianity, but of all books which follow a set pattern of seperating people due to their devoutness and passing judgement. It isn't that I don't like Christianity, I just wondered if maybe the reason there aren't more people here writing is due to this need to share absolutes of your religion while some people are talking about an entirely different component of spirituality. The compulsion to share your religious thoughts can sometimes be more harmful than good if you don't listen to what the OP needs. That is all I was saying. For instance, the guy who got me interested in writing here in the first place was interested in spirituality and God and said religion triggered him. Ablewarrior said he was triggered by things from his childhood involving Christianity and yet people introduced their Christian dogma to him as though it would somehow make him feel better, and a few people lectured and preached as though the poor man hadn't heard the same stuff his entire childhood. I was incredulous as a new reader to the site reading this. The I read other non-religious threads and found alot of the same thing in them. Therefore, this isn't about you writng your Bible verses or mentioning Jesus, it is about helping the OP, or sharing with the OP while listening to what they are asking for.

First of all, what hurt Absewarrior was that people who call themselves Christians were not truly loving him or others as he was growing up. If the Baptists in his life had followed Jesus' teachings to love others and not to judge others, then he would not have suffered the abuse and intolerant childhood that he suffered.

Now, I do not understand how it would hurt him for people to point out that those "Christians" who are intolerant and abusive are not following Jesus' commands to love and not judge?

 

Let's say that someone calls himself a Buddhist, yet goes out and murders people. Did Siddhārtha Guatama Buddha teach his followers to kill people? I don't think so. A Buddhist who kills/murders then is not truly following the teachings or example of the founder of Buddhism. Now, let's say someone suffered because a person calling himself a Buddhist killed his loved one. Would it hurt the person to know that Siddhārtha Guatama Buddha did not teach killing others? I don't think so. What rather hurts the person? The death of his loved one at the hand of someone who claims to be a Buddhist.

 

For centuries, many people who call themselves Christians have not truly loved their neighbors as themselves, each other, and their enemies. Is it hurtful to people who have suffered by their hands to point that out? Is it hurtful to the victims of the Inquisition and Crusades to point out that Jesus Christ never said to kill those who don't believe in him, but rather to love one's enemies? I don't think so. Rather, what's hurtful is that people hurt/killed/tortured/robbed others who believe differently.

 

I am not offended at all and if I ask a religious question or want to share a religious thought, please feel free to share Bible verses or quotes by C.S. Lewis or anyone else who has inspired you. I would also suggest you read Thomas More as he has alot in common with Lewis, and I tihnk you would enjoy his work.

Grumps

 

I will look Thomas More up. I encourage you to look up Nick Vujicic. He is an inspiration and I think can comfort many people, due to his experiencing "life without limits" as he experiences life without limbs.

[BetheButterfly]

FF-

And this is why I started the other thread on why we search. If we are just a part of the energy, then why do we have so many questions and want to search for answers. I, too, am a huge believer in natural world order, that we are animals who have evolved into logical, world-centric egoists, an inherent of metaphysical principle. Therefore, the energy we project is complicated.

In my native culture, animism fully influenced my view of how the world is alive in every way. Cherokee believe that the world is a living, breathing pulse of energy and that the owl and cougar, who stayed awake during the creation of the world, are all-seeing and therefore are our spirit guides. By this, I always see animals as us, not seperate from us. Hierarchy isn't necessarily prevalent in animism. Though I was also raised with Protestant religion, my focus and viewpoints come from my grandparents who handed down mythologies, ceremonies and song. I guess, because of that, God is us, all of us, including the trees, the sun, the moon, and the universe. Every particle is God. Hence, my interest in Buddhist philosophy. God is not a man in the sky.

When I said that God and spirituality isn't exclusive, I meant together they aren't exclusive to one religion. Obviously, apart they are exclusive to personal perspectives. Sorry that wasn't very clear.

Some good thoughts here. I will ponder them today.

Grumps

 

Do you know very much about Native American beliefs???! I have always been curious about them.

 

It very much infuriates me that when Europeans immigrated to the "New World", many stole/lied/killed/raped/hurt the Native Americans. Some tried to force them to convert to Christianity. That is so wrong because Jesus did not teach his followers to force or threaten people into "believing" in him... that breeds hypocrisy anyways. Jesus did say to tell others about him and baptize those who believe, but he did not AT ALL teach his followers to force others in any way.

 

I really wish that the history of the USA was so different; I wish that the European immigrants had not done the horrible things they did to the Native Americans, but rather had lived together with the Native Americans in Love, and in agreeing to disagree on differences.

 

Could you check out the Native American thread and share? I just found it. I don't think there are many members on this forum who are interested in Native American beliefs, but I personally would like to know more!

 

I looked up Thomas More. I very much like that he was a humanist.

Edited March 12, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[TheFinalWord]

The Final Word-

I think the circle of light theory is correct. The more I know, the more I know I know very little, but the more I want to learn. I was once told that knowledge for knowledge's sake was hubris, but I just chalked that viewpoint up as someone who didn't enjoy the mysteries of the universe or the spirit. I enjoy the mystery, and I enjoy the search.

If you don't mind sharing sometime, can you tell me what the moniker "The Final Word" means to you? Very interested in particular meanings to names.

Grumps

 

Hi Grumps, very interesting insights! The searching is the fun and rewarding part

 

Sure, it's funny b/c my user name on LS actually has little to do with spirituality haha

 

Like a lot of people here, I found LS after a break-up. The girl I broke up with, I sent a very kind letter to after our break-up. She never responded, but did some vindictive things after I sent the letter. So, I got the final word Meaning, I sent her the letter, but never retaliated even after she did vengeful things to me. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is it in a nutshell. So I guess in a way it is spiritual, because Jesus said not to retaliate even when we are wronged and to forgive the person. But I never originally intended to connect my moniker with anything spiritual.

 

Interestingly, I tried to stay away from this sub-forum for a long time when first joining LS. Reason being, when I first got saved (long story short, I was addicted to drugs and God delivered me from addiction, instantly), I was on discussion boards debating with atheists and Muslims, mainly. I did that for years, and learned a lot from the process; mostly about myself and how debating rarely changes anyone's mind. Spirituality is largely experiential, and experiencing God is not something you can "debate" into someone. If that makes sense.

 

When I first came here I noticed this forum and some posters saying inaccurate things about Christianity. I told myself "Don't go there finalword; just stay out of it" LOL But here I am now, and to be honest, I really like this forum, mainly b/c it is smaller (has a community feel) and b/c even those of different view points tend to be very respectful of one another. These days, I really do not want to debate anymore; just share my opinions and how God has worked in my life. Thanks for asking. If you don't mind me asking, what does your moniker mean? You don't seem too grumpy to me

[Grumpybutfun]

Be the Butterfly:

Yes, I will check out the other thread and share what I was taught. Though Native American beliefs differ by not only tribes, but by region. There are many North, Central and South American Native American tribes who are interesting and I have studied them extensively, traveling there and living for a while. Yet, as I did not live inside a tribe, my views are rather unorthodox as I was also raised in the mountains and was raised in strict Protestant churches. I am moving right now so it may be a bit before I can get into that, but I will try my best not to take so long.

 

I certainly hope Absewarrior will come back (sorry I got your name wrong.) I would be glad to talk about spirituality with him as it seems like it was a huge deal that he is searchign to begin with.

 

First of all, what hurt Absewarrior was that people who call themselves

Christians were not truly loving him or others as he was growing up. If the

Baptists in his life had followed Jesus' teachings to love others and not to

judge others, then he would not have suffered the abuse and intolerant

childhood that he suffered.

 

 

 

Now, I do not understand how it would hurt him for people to point out

that those "Christians" who are intolerant and abusive are not following Jesus'

commands to love and not judge?

 

When someone is abused it isn't necessarily the right/wrong of things that they see. Sometimes the words such as Bible verses or even Jesus can be triggering to them. Your intentions were good, but the words themselves would have been like blades in his mind. Have you ever had something bad happen and be triggered by them? PTSD is usually correlated with abuse so he may see these words as negative/abusive. Even good phrases such as "God is love" or "For God so loved the World" can be triggering to someone whom they were used against like a weapoon from evil people. Being triggered means negative connotations are stuck to something so it is painful when you expereince it even though the child abuse is over. I had similiar situations with another sect of Protestantism, though I am not triggered anymore because I understand the difference between spirituality and God. Religion isn't necessary to my journey nor my relationship with God, though I have nothing but respect for those who practice with kindness and tolerance.

I was hit in the face as a child alot. I had years where if someone would even put their hand near my face, regardless of intent, I would recoil and flinch. That is being triggered. I was also called terrible names by my mother and endured lots of verbal abuse, now if I hear some of those words, even on t.v. or from others who are no threat to me, it pains me deep in my soul. I imagine that is what he meant by triggered..the words of the Bible, the religion itself would be triggering. You experienced something really good in Christianity and he did not. Therefore what you see as love, he doesn't, I imagine. If I am wrong, I hope he will correct me on this, but this is as I saw the situation. This is just my humble opinion as it related to me.

I personally like quotes from books to make a point as I have read alot and find texts to be interesting and thought provoking. However, some people do not. We have to listen to what the OP needs. If something triggers them and they don't come back, that means the quotes were useless and maybe harmful. It is about listening to the OP.

Yes, love and spirit are the same if they are imbued with positive energy. God is love and spirit and therefore is the energy flowing throughout. God is.

Good chat,

Grumps

[Grumpybutfun]

If you don't mind me asking, what does your moniker mean? You don't seem too grumpy to me

 

My spouse actually gave it to me. I like my solitude and if I don't get it I can be a bit grumpy. Not to my spouse, of course, but with others. The mailman apparently mentioned that I was rather grumpy during the mornings. Then one of my writing students mentioned I was grumpy...and it went on and on ever the years until one day after we had rolled down the side of a mountain and grass stained our clothes laughing all the way, my spouse said, "You may be grumpy but you are fun." It kinda stuck after that. Nothing earth shattering such as a break-up, but a good story.

I hope you are in abetter place relationship wise. Break-ups can be hard. Spirituality is mandatory in such situations as I recall the tears of others from long ago when I was happily breaking hearts and not understanding the value of kindness. My marriage has taught me about forgiveness and kindness...my energy with my spouse is good.

Grumps

[BetheButterfly]

Be the Butterfly:

Yes, I will check out the other thread and share what I was taught. Though Native American beliefs differ by not only tribes, but by region. There are many North, Central and South American Native American tribes who are interesting and I have studied them extensively, traveling there and living for a while. Yet, as I did not live inside a tribe, my views are rather unorthodox as I was also raised in the mountains and was raised in strict Protestant churches. I am moving right now so it may be a bit before I can get into that, but I will try my best not to take so long.

 

OK, I would love to learn more about different Native American beliefs. Thanks so much!!!

I certainly hope Absewarrior will come back (sorry I got your name wrong.) I would be glad to talk about spirituality with him as it seems like it was a huge deal that he is searchign to begin with.

I hope he does too, and I apologized for posting the Bible verses, because I didn't mean at all to offend in any way. It makes me so mad when Christians are mean and intolerant, since Jesus taught love!!!

 

 

When someone is abused it isn't necessarily the right/wrong of things that they see. Sometimes the words such as Bible verses or even Jesus can be triggering to them. Your intentions were good, but the words themselves would have been like blades in his mind.

Thanks for explaining that. I don't understand that through experience, but thank you for helping me understand that others think differently due to their experiences. I most definitely did not mean to hurt him or anyone at all!!!

Have you ever had something bad happen and be triggered by them?

Yes. I was bullied by some boys when I was as a child, because of my glasses. I refuse to wear glasses now except for when I have to drive. I even feel uncomfortable driving during the day, due to wearing glasses. I was told I was ugly because of my glasses, and it still hurts today. Even though my husband says I look beautiful with a certain style glasses, I don't believe him. Other people wearing glasses or talking about glasses often don't trigger my bad memories of being bullied, but the word "ugly" does trigger me, and words like "stupid" and "ridiculous" and "retard" trigger me too... I think it's cause I associate those words with bullies. When I was a kid being bullied, I didn't know I was being bullied. I simply thought they were right; I was ugly, and I blamed my glasses, cause I didn't seem to be called ugly when I didn't wear glasses. It wasn't until later that I realized I was simply being bullied, and that many bullies used mean words to hurt people.

 

PTSD is usually correlated with abuse so he may see these words as negative/abusive. Even good phrases such as "God is love" or "For God so loved the World" can be triggering to someone whom they were used against like a weapoon from evil people. Being triggered means negative connotations are stuck to something so it is painful when you expereince it even though the child abuse is over. I had similiar situations with another sect of Protestantism, though I am not triggered anymore because I understand the difference between spirituality and God.

Thanks for explaining that. That's very important to know and I appreciate your taking the time to explain, cause I didn't know that or have any experience with that.

 

Religion isn't necessary to my journey nor my relationship with God, though I have nothing but respect for those who practice with kindness and tolerance.

Thanks! I have respect for those who practice life with kindness and tolerance and don't believe in God.

 

 

I was hit in the face as a child alot. I had years where if someone would even put their hand near my face, regardless of intent, I would recoil and flinch. That is being triggered. I was also called terrible names by my mother and endured lots of verbal abuse, now if I hear some of those words, even on t.v. or from others who are no threat to me, it pains me deep in my soul. I imagine that is what he meant by triggered..the words of the Bible, the religion itself would be triggering.

I am sorry. Physical and verbal abuse is horrible. I wish your Mom was loving and kind.

 

You experienced something really good in Christianity and he did not.

Yes, I still experience Love in Christianity, though I understand love is no confined to one belief.

 

Therefore what you see as love, he doesn't, I imagine. If I am wrong, I hope he will correct me on this, but this is as I saw the situation. This is just my humble opinion as it related to me.

I personally like quotes from books to make a point as I have read alot and find texts to be interesting and thought provoking. However, some people do not. We have to listen to what the OP needs. If something triggers them and they don't come back, that means the quotes were useless and maybe harmful. It is about listening to the OP.

I don't know if he read my quotes with Bible verses? I don't see where he posted anything during/after I did in his thread? If he did read my post before it was cut, I hope he reads my apology and knows I didn't mean to hurt him in any way and that it makes me angry that people who call themselves Christians do not love like Jesus said.

 

Yes, love and spirit are the same if they are imbued with positive energy. God is love and spirit and therefore is the energy flowing throughout. God is.

Agreed!!!

 

Good chat,

 

Grumps

Thanks for explaining. You are a good teacher. Blessings

 

I have to go now!

Edited March 12, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[TheFinalWord]

My spouse actually gave it to me. I like my solitude and if I don't get it I can be a bit grumpy. Not to my spouse, of course, but with others. The mailman apparently mentioned that I was rather grumpy during the mornings. Then one of my writing students mentioned I was grumpy...and it went on and on ever the years until one day after we had rolled down the side of a mountain and grass stained our clothes laughing all the way, my spouse said, "You may be grumpy but you are fun." It kinda stuck after that. Nothing earth shattering such as a break-up, but a good story.

I hope you are in abetter place relationship wise. Break-ups can be hard. Spirituality is mandatory in such situations as I recall the tears of others from long ago when I was happily breaking hearts and not understanding the value of kindness. My marriage has taught me about forgiveness and kindness...my energy with my spouse is good.

Grumps

 

Thanks for the words of advice. I have healed from that and forgave her a long time ago I can see now that being single is 1000x better than being in a bad marriage. I may take you up on some dating advice sometime! I am always interested in the experiences of those with successful marriages. I have prayed for a wife and I know that God will provide that when the timing is right. I trust God completely

 

That is hilarious about your name!! You know I am pretty introverted myself. It's funny b/c my mom is very extroverted and my dad is very introverted. So I kind of have a combo lol Introverts need our alone time to re-charge so I can fully relate to you on that!!

 

You mentioned writing students. Are you a teacher?

 

I have done quite a bit of teaching in my time. Love it! I am finishing up PhD now. I did not teach this year due to research obligations, but have accepted a faculty position and cannot wait to start teaching again!!! It's so much fun On another note, finishing dissertation, might give you some clue why I need spiritual armor right now haha

[Grumpybutfun]

The Final Word-

I find myself teaching a bit less these days, but I have taught everything from Foreign Policy courses to Philosophy courses. My favorites are usually when I get to focus on creative writing or a certain author. I did a class on John Irving that I really liked a few years ago.

I can certainly understand needing spiritual armor during your dissertation...done that a few times and it never gets any less stressful or tedious.

I am odd in that I am an extrovert and an introvert...my friends and family blame it on me being a Gemini. I am the life of the party one moment and a hermit the next. As you can imagine, when I am extroverted i love teaching, but when I feel introverted I despise it.

Good luck on your faculty position. The in-house political maneuverings may drive you mad.

Thanks for the chat,

Grumps

[TheFinalWord]

The Final Word-

I find myself teaching a bit less these days, but I have taught everything from Foreign Policy courses to Philosophy courses. My favorites are usually when I get to focus on creative writing or a certain author. I did a class on John Irving that I really liked a few years ago.

I can certainly understand needing spiritual armor during your dissertation...done that a few times and it never gets any less stressful or tedious.

I am odd in that I am an extrovert and an introvert...my friends and family blame it on me being a Gemini. I am the life of the party one moment and a hermit the next. As you can imagine, when I am extroverted i love teaching, but when I feel introverted I despise it.

Good luck on your faculty position. The in-house political maneuverings may drive you mad.

Thanks for the chat,

Grumps

 

Very interesting Grumps! Thanks for sharing I'm a Gemini too, though I don't believe in any of it You are so right about the politics..."Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small" as the saying goes Sayre's law

[TaraMaiden]

Buddhists never say, unless asked or invited to do so. That is our bye-word.

We are instructed to simply be a lamp unto ourselves.

 

Christians always say, even if asked or invited to NOT do so. That is their bye-word.

They are instructed to go out and preach the Gospel.

[Grumpybutfun]

Buddhists never say, unless asked or invited to do so. That is our bye-word.

We are instructed to simply be a lamp unto ourselves.

 

Christians always say, even if asked or invited to NOT do so. That is their bye-word.

They are instructed to go out and preach the Gospel.

 

 

TaraMaiden-

This is why I have a great deal of patience with the religions who are commanded to witness to others. There really is nothing they can do about that command if they are to believe and follow their religion's dogma.

I have actually met some--shall we say Pseudo Buddhists-- who were quite militant in their need to recruit me. Of course, knowing even the basic lessons of Buddha as passed down, I realized they weren't really Buddhists.

Spirituality to me means being interconnected, a part of a peaceful process where life has more meaning than emotions such as greed or arrogance. If I am the only member of my belief system that is okay with me. I do not need to be validated by acquiescence, and perhaps that is what is different about some religious people that need to witness to others. A need to be a part of a group?

Your words are very true. They needed to be said.

Grumps

[BetheButterfly]

Buddhists never say, unless asked or invited to do so. That is our bye-word.

We are instructed to simply be a lamp unto ourselves.

 

This reminds me of Jewish Orthodox beliefs... they do not say unless asked or invited to do so too!

 

Christians always say, even if asked or invited to NOT do so. That is their bye-word.

They are instructed to go out and preach the Gospel.

 

True

 

BUT we are not instructed to force people to believe what we do or persecute anyone and I really wish throughout Christian history, people who called themselves Christians had loved like Jesus commanded, instead of trying to condemn others to hell, persecute them, and force them to convert.

[TheFinalWord]

TaraMaiden-

This is why I have a great deal of patience with the religions who are commanded to witness to others. There really is nothing they can do about that command if they are to believe and follow their religion's dogma.

I have actually met some--shall we say Pseudo Buddhists-- who were quite militant in their need to recruit me. Of course, knowing even the basic lessons of Buddha as passed down, I realized they weren't really Buddhists.

Spirituality to me means being interconnected, a part of a peaceful process where life has more meaning than emotions such as greed or arrogance. If I am the only member of my belief system that is okay with me. I do not need to be validated by acquiescence, and perhaps that is what is different about some religious people that need to witness to others. A need to be a part of a group?

Your words are very true. They needed to be said.

Grumps

 

A lot of times people believe Christians only witness because we are commanded too. I am sure that may be for some people, but not for me. For example, I receive no reward for sharing my experience with Christ on this Web site. It does not increase my popularity (I am sure) and I get no personal gain from it.

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

 

I do it because Christ has been so good to me, and I wish everyone would experience the same grace I have received. For me, it is motivated by love, not a commandment. Of course, I respect those that are not Christians (a large portion of my friends are atheists, my advisor is Hindu, my former boss is a gay Jewish man, and my current boss is Jewish). If I did not love those I witness too, I would not talk about Christ. I would keep silent and keep it to myself. With that said, I have witnessed to most of my friends. If they do not receive it, no problem, I do not pressure anyone. It is God that draws a person to Himself, not me. He has only given us the privilege of witnessing on his behalf (humbling). I personally believe the best witness is a life of victory through Christ. Actions will always speak louder than words!!

 

I am confident many non-Christians do not see witnessing as motivated by love, and I can see how this gets lost in translation via a Web forum. I used to be very hostile towards Christianity so I can understand why witnessing irks people. To me, Christ is the best thing that has ever happened to me. For me, to not share what has been the greatest experience of my life, which I believe everyone can have, would be selfish and the opposite of the golden rule. I do not personally share Christ because I am commanded too. I do not do well with taking orders, which is why I'm a Christian. I need the grace of God.

Edited March 19, 2013 by TheFinalWord