Why does the BS dismiss the pain of the OW

[waterwoman]

Hey TOW, what a generous honest post

Hope life eases up on you soon xx

[AnotherRound]

Apologies if I have the wrong poster, but didn't you start a thread basically laughing at the lies the MM told his BS so that he could be with you? Do you not see how that would trigger a great many readers on this forum?

 

Yes, this is the OM/OW forum, but you also post in the 'infidelity' forum and I assume you wouldn't appreciate being triggered or upset there either?

 

I don't know the thread you are talking about, but I am guilty of posting my thoughts on the Infidelity board and triggering people unintentionally. Hence, if I can't post something there as a BW - then I just don't post. I got caught up in trying to remind people that it isn't "always" or "all" and it was the wrong place to try to do so, and I apologized and stopped posting there. I still read there - I just don't post.

 

I think that's the secret. That if one finds themselves triggering, they should remove themselves or the trigger - or at least realize that they are triggering and as LFH said, "do no more harm".

 

What post are you referring to, if I'm allowed to ask that?

[Spark1111]

To me, politeness is not the same as support. You can be polite to someone and not this support them. I think the OP may have been referring to (I'm totally guessing here) the fact that there are some folks who purposely go where they will not like what they see and then proceed to be rude. When really, it's as simple as not going where you will feel that - or at least having the ability as an adult to control yourself.

 

Also, I've seen someone say that the OW here should say that they are sorry to the WS here... ???? I have said that I'm sorry to some here - whatever their label - for their pain. I have not, however, apologized for my behavior to strangers who were not affected by my behavior. That seems a little odd to me - as I did not cause anyone here pain through my actions (unless of course the BW is here and was actually hurt by my actions, which doesn't seem to be the case).

 

This is some more of that "groveling" thing for me. That if an OW doesn't come here with their tail tucked between their legs and beg for forgiveness from strangers then it is decided that she is unremorseful and must be punished. In my life, I answer to no-one except myself and my own personal higher powers. I apologize to those that I hurt without hesitation - but I don't beg for outside forgiveness because I don't need it, nor does it matter to me what strangers think of me. They have no right to judge me or my behaviors any more than I have to judge theirs.

 

I notice that if an OW comes here and states that they are a horrible person, and apologizes profusely to strangers for hurting them, that they are accepted with open arms. And that's great - I don't think it's healthy (I know, I know), but whatever works. But I won't be beat into submission by bullies - regardless of the fact that they THINK they have a right to forgive me. I don't need their forgiveness - I have come to terms with my own behaviors in my own life, and no external validation of that is necessary. I know what I know and stand where I stand with pride - I am not diminished as a person because I participated in something others deem wrong.

 

This could be so many things, it's unreal. Here, it's about affairs - but there are a lot of behaviors that I disagree with - I don't go around telling those people to apologize to me if they partake in those behaviors! I will let the universe do its work as it sees fit. It all balances out in the end, and nobody will ever convince me that I am not a good person worthy of respect and politeness.

 

*This does not pertain to everyone here, only a select few - as with any population, there are always "those" people, lol.

 

You use beaten, groveling, punishment, answering to no one, being forced to submit to bullies....a lot. lol.

 

Yes, empathy and respect is a two way street.

 

So is conceding a point you may not have personally experienced, as hard as that may be for some to do.

 

And good people are worthy of respect and politeness and hopefully receive it as often as they themeselves extend it.

 

No one has to apologize to me for having an affair, just as I do not feel I need to apologize for reconciling with my husband.

 

I think we are really talking of empathy; I try to see your viewpoint and feelings as long as you try to see mine.

 

Yes, respect for the feelings of another. Give it, and you can often get it.

[AnotherRound]

You use beaten, groveling, punishment, answering to no one, being forced to submit to bullies....a lot. lol.

 

Yes, empathy and respect is a two way street.

 

So is conceding a point you may not have personally experienced, as hard as that may be for some to do.

 

And good people are worthy of respect and politeness and hopefully receive it as often as they themeselves extend it.

 

No one has to apologize to me for having an affair, just as I do not feel I need to apologize for reconciling with my husband.

 

I think we are really talking of empathy; I try to see your viewpoint and feelings as long as you try to see mine.

 

Yes, respect for the feelings of another. Give it, and you can often get it.

 

 

I do use those a lot - lol. I think because I find them so unhealthy for people. It just isn't constructive to anything, imo. If someone is trying to strip another of their worth, it leads to nothing but resentment, imo, which is really hard to recover from. I'm a proud person, I know that I'm worthy of respect - and I guess when I see someone being abused emotionally (expected to grovel, accepting beating down emotionally) I feel this need to protect them - bc they are being treated in an unhealthy way - and deserve better, no matter their mistakes.

 

To me, all humans are worthy - despite their actions, decisions, behaviors. That's probably bc I know about mental illness and have understanding of human's faults to such a high extent. Yet, I still know that everyone deserves to have dignity and be treated with respect as a human.

 

You said "good people" and that's a common thing - deciding that some people are "bad" and others are "good". In the world that I live in - I see all good people - sometimes they make bad choices, sometimes they are ill, sometimes they have no choices - but I do not see "bad" people. That could be the difference - unconditional positive regard - I ALWAYS find the good because I KNOW it's there.

 

As an aside - I can't tell you how frustrated I get with parents and adults that label children this way. All the work I have to do to convince a child that they are not a "bad" kid - ugh. It takes so much to help them relearn that they are worthy even when they make bad choices. That there are consequences for behavior - but that consequence is NEVER that they aren't still deserving of human decency or dignity.

[Mme. Chaucer]

As you all know I'm rubbish with words so i will let the caption do the talking, I will end up causing a massive fall-out between us.

 

But I have been reading through some posts today and I feel that some people dismiss the pain of the OW like we are completely irrelevant and have no feelings at all ... Or more likely how dare we feel pain over theirs.

 

If I'm IN pain, I am likely to dismiss the pain of a person who was very instrumental in causing me my pain. And, to extrapolate that to other people who are contributing to the pain of others in a similar fashion.

 

Isn't this pretty universal?

[AnotherRound]

I always assume that when an OM/OW comes here claiming 'they are a horrible person, and apologize profusely', this has a great deal more to do with them wanting to voice their own sorrow regarding their behavior and far less to do with actually thinking they are 'apologizing' to anyone reading what they are writing. I cannot imagine anyone thinking otherwise.

 

Further, how is it 'unhealthy' to vocalize feeling tremendous guilt and shame for actions that a person now considers abhorrent? I take it then you believe keeping it in to be more healthy? Sounds very misguided to me.

 

Finally, who beat anyone into anything? If someone arrives at any message board and immediately begins confessing, what bullies are you referring to?

 

Your post seems like it is written by someone that is far more interested in how they appear than by what they are inside. I apologize, but that's how it reads. You are basically belittling any OM/OW that feels remorseful for their part in the A, and then continue by almost bragging about NOT showing any remorse yourself. I'm not sure what the message, if any, is.

 

Not belittling at all - that's what they feel, and that's valid - I was just noting that they are MUCH more accepted here. And that any OW/OM that doesn't do this is much less accepted - or seen to be arrogant or unremorseful.

 

I'm talking about bullies that demand a certain behavior - ie begging for forgiveness - or else deem someone unworthy of respect or politeness.

 

I am not bragging about anything, sorry if it sounded that way??? I am saying that I don't owe remorsefulness to this board. What I feel regarding my own situation isn't going to fit the mold really, bc I wasn't in a deceptive affair - nobody was being harmed in the situation, so there isn't much for me to be remorseful about that way. If I felt that, I wouldn't bottle it up - trust me, I'm not a bottler, lol. But my circumstances don't warrant that.

 

It's unhealthy to let people walk all over you - period. No matter what someone has done, no matter what decisions they have made -that does not give the rest of the world a golden ticket to treat them like ****. It's like stockading someone - when really, no human has the right to place themselves in a superior position over another human when it comes to morality. It's a power play on the bully's part - and something that perhaps makes them feel better about their own discretions - but absolutely unhealthy, and unrealistic to boot to imagine that one has the "right" or the "power" to degrade another in any form.

 

What was the saying going around not long ago... "Don't judge someone else for sinning differently than you do"... Thing is - EVERY human makes mistakes, bad choices, has selfish behavior at times, etc etc. Cast stones when you don't - but if that was followed, no stones would EVER be cast, because in all honesty, no humans have that right - we are all faulty in some way or another.

 

I like to say "have your bucket of stones ready while you watch me from inside your glass house". Hierarchy of sins, perhaps - but the right to decide that your sin is less than someone else's and take the right of another? Nope.

[Spark1111]

I do use those a lot - lol. I think because I find them so unhealthy for people. It just isn't constructive to anything, imo. If someone is trying to strip another of their worth, it leads to nothing but resentment, imo, which is really hard to recover from. I'm a proud person, I know that I'm worthy of respect - and I guess when I see someone being abused emotionally (expected to grovel, accepting beating down emotionally) I feel this need to protect them - bc they are being treated in an unhealthy way - and deserve better, no matter their mistakes.

 

To me, all humans are worthy - despite their actions, decisions, behaviors. That's probably bc I know about mental illness and have understanding of human's faults to such a high extent. Yet, I still know that everyone deserves to have dignity and be treated with respect as a human.

 

You said "good people" and that's a common thing - deciding that some people are "bad" and others are "good". In the world that I live in - I see all good people - sometimes they make bad choices, sometimes they are ill, sometimes they have no choices - but I do not see "bad" people. That could be the difference - unconditional positive regard - I ALWAYS find the good because I KNOW it's there.

 

As an aside - I can't tell you how frustrated I get with parents and adults that label children this way. All the work I have to do to convince a child that they are not a "bad" kid - ugh. It takes so much to help them relearn that they are worthy even when they make bad choices. That there are consequences for behavior - but that consequence is NEVER that they aren't still deserving of human decency or dignity.

 

 

On this we agree!

 

yet surely, with your background in counseling, you must be well-versed in the triangle dynamic of victim, rescuer against persecutor, especially as it relates to affairs?

 

Because no one is punished, made to grovel, humiliated more than an unsuspecting spouse who discovers they have been lied to for years. No one feels uglier, less worthy of positive regard, less good, than that person.....just like that child you want to save.

 

Yes, pain is relative, and for me, it is easier to empathize with those who understand my POV, how it was forced upon me without my consent, as opposed to someone who chose a painful path for themselves and STILL could care less about me and mine.

[AnotherRound]

On this we agree!

 

yet surely, with your background in counseling, you must be well-versed in the triangle dynamic of victim, rescuer against persecutor, especially as it relates to affairs?

 

Because no one is punished, made to grovel, humiliated more than an unsuspecting spouse who discovers they have been lied to for years. No one feels uglier, less worthy of positive regard, less good, than that person.....just like that child you want to save.

 

Yes, pain is relative, and for me, it is easier to empathize with those who understand my POV, how it was forced upon me without my consent, as opposed to someone who chose a painful path for themselves and STILL could care less about me and mine.

 

We do agree on the base, really, lol. I understand that in a deceptive affair that the BS would be harmed and angry, I'm not disagreeing with that AT ALL. And yes, they have every right to feel that way. They do not, imo, have the right to take that hurt and anger and try to degrade someone else so that they can feel better (not even superior necessarily, but I think that happens). No matter what that person did - it's just not healthy. It won't really make them feel better, momentarily yes, but in the long run isn't constructive to anything - and it's not a very advanced reaction (no judgment intended here, just an honest regard of the behavior).

 

However - and this goes back to that "all" "never" thing - not ALL OW/OMs are in those types of situations - they just aren't. So, expecting me to apologize for something that I never took part in is odd. I have been called unremorseful here because I don't beg for forgiveness from the BSs who post here - when 1 - I don't need forgiveness, I did nothing wrong in MY situation and 2 - it's not theirs to give even if I HAD done something wrong.

 

You can respect someone's rights as a human without agreeing with their actions and behaviors. To step over the cliff and decide that you have the "right" to judge them or bully them (be rude to them, degrade them, etc.) because they need your forgiveness is, imo, much more arrogant than someone that just isn't begging for forgiveness from strangers who were harmed by others in a similar situation.

 

My world view is a big part of this - that we as humans are not in any position to judge one another. We can have opinions and such, of course, but I don't see myself as more valuable then any other human simply bc of their behaviors. The life of a sex abuser is just as worthy of dignity as anyone else's - which I know will be hard for some to accept. But I look at them (and I choose to not work with them for my own personal reasons) and see bad behaviors - not a bad person. I see an ill person, but not a bad person.

 

And even if I did at some point think that someone is a "bad" person - I would never have the audacity to believe that it is my right to slap that label on them bc I am just another human - not god, not the universe, not a perfectly unflawed deity.

 

We are all in this together - for better or for worse. We are all trying to find our way - some are doing better than others - but that does not automatically negate the other's right to be treated with dignity and not be abused.

[wannabdone]

I think it depends on what your looking for. If your wishing the BS to be civil, I think that is fair. I don't believe in "tit for tat", you hurt me, therefore I must hurt you. That ends up making the BS no better than the OW or OM. However, if you are looking for the BS to validate your feelings, that is simply ridiculous. No one when they are feeling pain, and pain that has been particially inflicted by the OW/OM, can validate that persons pain, or should they even to be expected to.

 

I do think there are often times on here that we take our anger out on the poster. Not keeping in mind that this is a real human being, good or bad, right or wrong and they are hurting. Also that the poster IS NOT the person who did anything to you personally, and no matter what that person deserves the right to come to a place and talk about their pain. On the flip side, posters forget this is a public forum, and freedom of speech so anyone has the right to what they wish. The world would be a better place if we could all be a little kinder, but unfortunately that will never happen. So, you just have to learn to take everything with a grain of salt.

[LFH]

Apologies if I have the wrong poster, but didn't you start a thread basically laughing at the lies the MM told his BS so that he could be with you? Do you not see how that would trigger a great many readers on this forum?

 

Yes, this is the OM/OW forum, but you also post in the 'infidelity' forum and I assume you wouldn't appreciate being triggered or upset there either?

 

You have the right poster, but you completely missed the point of the thread. I wasn't LAUGHING at the lies, I was talking about how sometimes it feels ridiculous and you wonder how on earth you ended up in that situation. AND I posted it here, on the OW/OM support board, on a board that is meant for discussion and support of the ones who are in the affair.

 

It's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about in my other post. THIS forum, right here, is where we are supposed to be able to talk about the things we need to, our needs, our pain. I'm sorry if that post triggered any BS that might be reading here, but the thread was for the OW/OM to discuss our situations. I say this with a great deal of gentleness, but, sometimes if you read on a board that is designed to support the OW, if you are a BS you aren't going to like what you read. You are kind of taking that chance. I don't feel I should have to censor my own needs/thoughts/and/or pain because it might hurt someone else and yet I do it all the time. I constantly downplay how I feel about his wife because I know that can be triggering to others, yet it's a HUGE issue for me and one I'd love to be able to talk about.

 

You're doing it right now by dismissing my needs for posting here by thinking your needs are more imporant than mine. I'm not saying mine are more important than yours, but I'm not telling you that you shouldn't be posting the way you feel either.

 

I do post in infidelity sometimes, and I go out of my way to be respectful over there. I don't make posts "for fun" nor see it as recreation.

And as far as whether or not I'd be triggered, well... does being called about a dozen vile names count? Because that's happened, and I simply walked away from the conversation with the understanding that my input wasn't desired. I don't read the posts that say "I think all OW are <insert expletive here> because why would I do that to myself?

I ONLY post over there if I think I have something relevant to add, not with an intention to dismiss someone's pain. I feel very bad for those who are hurting.

[Spark1111]

We do agree on the base, really, lol. I understand that in a deceptive affair that the BS would be harmed and angry, I'm not disagreeing with that AT ALL. And yes, they have every right to feel that way. They do not, imo, have the right to take that hurt and anger and try to degrade someone else so that they can feel better (not even superior necessarily, but I think that happens). No matter what that person did - it's just not healthy. It won't really make them feel better, momentarily yes, but in the long run isn't constructive to anything - and it's not a very advanced reaction (no judgment intended here, just an honest regard of the behavior).

 

However - and this goes back to that "all" "never" thing - not ALL OW/OMs are in those types of situations - they just aren't. So, expecting me to apologize for something that I never took part in is odd. I have been called unremorseful here because I don't beg for forgiveness from the BSs who post here - when 1 - I don't need forgiveness, I did nothing wrong in MY situation and 2 - it's not theirs to give even if I HAD done something wrong.

 

You can respect someone's rights as a human without agreeing with their actions and behaviors. To step over the cliff and decide that you have the "right" to judge them or bully them (be rude to them, degrade them, etc.) because they need your forgiveness is, imo, much more arrogant than someone that just isn't begging for forgiveness from strangers who were harmed by others in a similar situation.

 

My world view is a big part of this - that we as humans are not in any position to judge one another. We can have opinions and such, of course, but I don't see myself as more valuable then any other human simply bc of their behaviors. The life of a sex abuser is just as worthy of dignity as anyone else's - which I know will be hard for some to accept. But I look at them (and I choose to not work with them for my own personal reasons) and see bad behaviors - not a bad person. I see an ill person, but not a bad person.

 

And even if I did at some point think that someone is a "bad" person - I would never have the audacity to believe that it is my right to slap that label on them bc I am just another human - not god, not the universe, not a perfectly unflawed deity.

 

We are all in this together - for better or for worse. We are all trying to find our way - some are doing better than others - but that does not automatically negate the other's right to be treated with dignity and not be abused.

 

but again, we are back to pain is relative.

 

In the abstract, everyone should be treated with dignity, even a sex abuser, EXCEPT when he abuses my friend, me, or GOD forbid, my child.

 

Then I hate him and may be irrational and want to hurt him.

 

NOW it is personal, and as I reel in pain, I could not care less about whatever pain he may be feeling. I could not care less that he had a horrible childhood and whatever circumstances or pathology drove him to hurt another.

[TheOW]

Statements like these could be why.

 

Unless you know my full story it would be best to zip it.

[TheOW]

I have read your full story. You need to stop being so rude.

 

Pot kettle .....

[TheOW]

I have read your full story. You need to stop being so rude.

 

I apologise,

 

I know you are trying to get a rise out of me and then when I get overly defensive you then start quoting my words to prove your point to others

 

I'm not doing it

 

Goodbye

[HopingAgain]

I can't imagine many situations where the BS would feel anything but disgust and at best pity for the OW, unless the OW didn't know the MM was married. That's a whole different ball game. But that's like asking an attempted murder victim to feel bad for the person who tried to kill them after that persons been sentenced to prison! Really self centered to even expect it or even think it should be warranted.

[TheOW]

I can't imagine many situations where the BS would feel anything but disgust and at best pity for the OW, unless the OW didn't know the MM was married. That's a whole different ball game. But that's like asking an attempted murder victim to feel bad for the person who tried to kill them after that persons been sentenced to prison! Really self centered to even expect it or even think it should be warranted.

 

Again my point missed

[HopingAgain]

Statements like these could be why.

 

I totally agree, nothing but arrogance in the OW statement. If MM was gonna come running, he'd be there, and permanently. Not dangling OW on a string while he continues to lie to wife.

[HopingAgain]

Again my point missed

 

Your point wasn't missed at all. You want BS to empathize with YOUR pain when you caused it yourself and brought it on yourself willingly. Own your pain and realize that you don't need anyone else's permission to heal.

[RainDown]

Interesting thread.

 

I wonder if it might be wise for the newly hurt and raw to stick to their "own kind" for a while, so to speak. Several have mentioned that at times it is very difficult to see past one's own pain in order to appreciate the pain of another. If another is seen as a member of the group one considers the enemy, things can get triggery and ugly in a hurry. Which seems to happen quite a bit on the fora here.

 

I mean, if you are already hurt and angry why read things that you know are just going to make you more hurt and more angry? That just sounds painful to me.

[TheOW]

I totally agree, nothing but arrogance in the OW statement. If MM was gonna come running, he'd be there, and permanently. Not dangling OW on a string while he continues to lie to wife.

 

Ok seeing things that aren't there yet again,

 

He is not dangling me on a string

 

He is being honest with his wife

[spice4life]

I can't imagine many situations where the BS would feel anything but disgust and at best pity for the OW, unless the OW didn't know the MM was married. That's a whole different ball game. But that's like asking an attempted murder victim to feel bad for the person who tried to kill them after that persons been sentenced to prison! Really self centered to even expect it or even think it should be warranted.

 

So why post in this forum then? This is a support and discussion for those who have found themselves involved with a person who is in a committed relationship. If the posts in this forum "trigger" you then why are you here? The posted quote above belongs in the "Infidelity" forum and not here realistically. Why do you think it's okay to bash her simply because you don't like what she has to say? There is nothing civil in what you said in the above quoted post. Not a thing. It is more like you are here to take your anger about affairs out on strangers who have done nothing to you.

[spice4life]

Interesting thread.

 

I wonder if it might be wise for the newly hurt and raw to stick to their "own kind" for a while, so to speak. Several have mentioned that at times it is very difficult to see past one's own pain in order to appreciate the pain of another. If another is seen as a member of the group one considers the enemy, things can get triggery and ugly in a hurry. Which seems to happen quite a bit on the fora here.

 

I mean, if you are already hurt and angry why read things that you know are just going to make you more hurt and more angry? That just sounds painful to me.

 

Exactly. Why would someone want to stab themselves with a knife when they have a choice not to and a place to vent that is specifically designed for them?

[HopingAgain]

So why post in this forum then? This is a support and discussion for those who have found themselves involved with a person who is in a committed relationship. If the posts in this forum "trigger" you then why are you here? The posted quote above belongs in the "Infidelity" forum and not here realistically. Why do you think it's okay to bash her simply because you don't like what she has to say? There is nothing civil in what you said in the above quoted post. Not a thing. It is more like you are here to take your anger about affairs out on strangers who have done nothing to you.

 

If I'm correct, the original post was in reference to WHY some BS may dismiss the pain of OW. If only answers from OW or those who wish to sugarcoat their honest opinions were to be accepted, I would think that should have been included in the original post. SMH. Similarly, if you don't like the replies given, you don;t have to respond to them as well.

[TheOW]

I don't want to be in the middle of this but he isn't if he would still come to you if you asked. He's telling her you meant nothing, you were a mistake, etc. etc.

 

Since he's contacted you at all, this isn't the case. He's not being honest with her. Sadly, once again no one is.

 

Again you have not been reading my posts correctly or I may not have put it out there but he never told her I was a mistake he admitted he loved me to her and that he is confused he even told her about the few msgs he sent me, this is why she asked me to leave town so they could figure things out without me being present.

[ComingInHot]

AnotherRound;

You wrote, "...regardless of the fact that they THINK they have a right to forgive me. I don't need their forgiveness... "

 

I don't want to wonder too far off topic but this stood out to me and I hope I am not interpreting it out of the context of which it was written but I felt the urge to comment*

 

I am almost 100% positive that the exow in my stitch contacted me under the "guise" of an apology. I don't think she Truly wanted it. It was just an excuse to out the A then continue to contact me far after I told her I forgave her and to stop emailing me.

 

She honestly seemed LIVID that I forgave her immediately when she asked and that spurred her into email after email after email after email... of everything she could think of to write that would hopefully hurt me.

 

So I am wondering and hoping you have an answer or an idea of "why" she would ask for forgiveness, get it freely and graciously only to bait me time and time again to what? retract my forgiveness? to actually "DISMISS" her and her feelings?

I couldn't do that. Even though she was so hurtful, I figured it was because she was SO HURT.

I also knew that whether she meant it or not (saying sorry and looking for forgiveness), I had to forgive her anyway. It was something I did for me and it just so happened, she also asked.

If she had Never asked or wanted forgiveness, I still would have forgiven her, for my own healing.