As an "other" - would you respond in this way?

[anne1707]

AR, you said you see LS as fun??? Such serious subjects are fun to you??

 

Really?

 

 

It's nice that we provide some light relief to AR, isn't it?

[Decorative]

I'm not studying psychology - other than the CEUs I get for my licensure. I am a licensed Psychologist - as in, I have obtained multiple advanced degrees in the field. I am published also, and those published articles are about trauma and grief and counseling with said subjects.

 

Stand for what is right, even if you stand alone. A lot of people agreeing with me is not necessary - I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't debate because there is no point. Are you going to change your mind? Nope, lol. I'm just learning - gaining insight and listening to others express themselves - which gives me a broader view, and hopefully helps me to understand it.

 

I do have opinions, just bc I'm a professional doesn't mean that I don't have my own thoughts - that I'm a blank slate. I just don't let my opinions into the sessions with me - as any professional knows is not the point. The point is, my clients would never be aware of MY opinions, because they are irrelevant. My clients tell me where they want to be, and I help them get there - doesn't matter what I think or what my opinions or beliefs are. It's their session - and I don't tell them who they should be - that's not for me to decide.

 

I do quite well in my field, and I'm okay with some believing that I'm not really a professional or thinking that I suck at what I do. This website is a "fun" activity for me - when I have down time. Not my job, not my clients - just a place for me to be like everyone else and discuss and learn and observe and broaden my horizons. And, if some don't want to share with me, that's okay too - but others do and I learn a lot about people and labels and love and life and that's all I ask for.

 

You say you are a trauma and grief specialist?

 

And yet you post the way you do towards betrayed spouses? We're fun? Even those of us who have been diagnosed and treated for PTSD? This is fun? For you?

 

I am not sure what to say to that.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm not studying psychology - other than the CEUs I get for my licensure. I am a licensed Psychologist - as in, I have obtained multiple advanced degrees in the field. I am published also, and those published articles are about trauma and grief and counseling with said subjects.

 

Ok... Someone - anyone - explain to me the system that can make you a licensed Psychologist without studying the subject....?

 

Stand for what is right, even if you stand alone. A lot of people agreeing with me is not necessary - I'm perfectly okay with that.

Really?

You're not even slightly persuaded that perhaps you might need to revisit what you think is right - even though it's fairly obvious you 'stand alone'?

I don't debate because there is no point. Are you going to change your mind? Nope, lol.

 

There is much point to debate: That is why Universities of all kinds regularly hold debates and moots. And am I going to change my mind? Of course why not? If the argument is persuasive and logical and points to flaws in my thinking, there is no question that I would change my mind. I was a devoted Roman Catholic until something else demonstrated itself to be far more lucid, persuasive and logical...

You are saying you are refusing to consider a change of mind for yourself though....

Pray, what would Psychology say on that?

 

I'm just learning - gaining insight and listening to others express themselves - which gives me a broader view, and hopefully helps me to understand it.

...But refuse to debate it, discuss it or even agree with it.

 

I do have opinions, just bc I'm a professional doesn't mean that I don't have my own thoughts - that I'm a blank slate.

No, but you should at least be open to persuasion and wiping it clean, if the material is patently irregular or erroneous....

 

And as someone who has in the past, also been in Counselling, I feel entitled to be able to comment that....

[AnotherRound]

Affairs in and of themselves are yucky things. And once you lay down with dogs, so to speak, you get fleas. So once you embark on an the drama which is an affair, which is also unhealthy, I imagine the process to get to a helathy place will be--a process.

 

If the WS was reacting in a healthjy manner the A wouldn't have happened...so needless to say, that initial unhealthy line of action, will probably domino into more as people try to grapple with it. It is unrealistic to expect that after an A is discovered, a BS will be completely reasonable, rational, put together, know exactly the proper ways of acting and being and simply say "there there WS...we will work it out" and then sail off into some glitch free reconciliation. Nope...not even in Hollywood.

 

Affairs, betrayal, lies, deceit, emotions, relationships, fears, hopes,. crushed dreams, lost of trust etc. are all MESSY things and no BS/WS/OW is perfect while navigating it. It is not simply "a mistake." Mistake or not, the consequences to another are sometimes dire. I think irrational anger and irrational expectations are normal at the beginning of reconciliation. It's like any trauma. If you've been robbed before, raped, been in a car crash, in the first few days/weeks/months/years for some, you are on HIGH alert. You don't act normally. You're terrified of it happening again, you are extra cautious, over-cautious, extra-vigilant, easily triggered etc. This is normal. It is with time that you usually get to a less vigilant and sort of crazy place. I can thus imagine that in the beginning of reconciliation there will indeed be feelings of wanting to punish or being hypervigilant. I think this is a typical response. It is not one that is healthy in the long run, but certainly is to be expected and is thus a healthy and normal response initially, so long as one isn't stuck there permanently.

 

I've never been a BS personally and hope never to be. But one reason why I often say I doubt I could reconcile, depending on the severity, is that I don't know how I would manage to not be in that stage perpetually.

 

THIS! That is exactly how I felt - that the balance would NEVER be restored. I guess I'm curious as to how people restore that balance successfully - or, if there are lingering imbalances due to the upset that last forever? I know it's different for everyone, but statistically speaking?

 

For me, I just wouldn't have the energy or the strength to get through all of that to find out if it ever restored back to equality. It just wasn't worth it in my case with my exH - I don't think he and I would have ever been healthy again - as we weren't that healthy together to begin with. Ya know?

[eleanorrigby]

I think of the balance inequality as one partner having kind of a golden ticket for any kind of behavior for an amount of time, or maybe forever? I don't know if this ever actually happens - but it feels to me like a precedent is set up by this. This kind of , "I can do whatever I want bc you had an affair" attitude. Maybe that's not how it is at all - maybe it just seems like it to me bc I'm hearing people express it at a certain (maybe really early?) time in their reconciliation efforts?

 

I just know for me that I honestly feel ashamed of myself if I "chase" someone at all. Not that reconciling is chasing - but some of those behaviors that I've heard are necessary (checking up on them for instance) feels like "chasing" to me. It feels to me like I am forcing myself onto someone else when their actions are telling me that they don't want to be with me in an equal relationship?

 

I have a feeling this is much more MY issue than anyone else's. That I have some unique feelings about this and that I'm definitely not the norm - that what feels to me like submission (?) is to others normal and healthy and acceptable. Whereas to me, it seems terribly unhealthy and I KNOW I wouldn't be comfortable with it at all.

 

Huh - probably why the reconciliation efforts of my exH just never sat well - bc it felt VERY imbalanced to me. Even though I had not had the affair, and he had - I knew that I had done things wrong in the relationship too and I just didn't feel like that balance could ever be restored. Balance meaning - we were equal partners in the relationship with equal investment.

 

 

OK no, I didn't think of that as a balance inequality because he was and is free to check up on me in exactly the way I would do to him.

[spice4life]

I'm curious about this, and didn't want to TJ or participate where it would possibly trigger BSs - so, I'm curious for those others who may have been BSs too - did you think that punishing your BS was a healthy way to carry on? Such as - attempting to control them and their actions, invading their privacy in an attempt to verify where they were and such, attempting to limit their friendships with others? Is it just me, or does this seem terribly unhealthy to anyone else too? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I sometimes see a reconciliation happening where the BS expects "groveling" from the WS and seems to think that this is appropriate and healthy. I do NOT agree with this at all - as begging in any relationship seems unhealthy - and kind of pointless to me? As does feeling some kind of security or validation from someone else groveling to me bc they made a mistake?

 

Would you continue on in a relationship like this? As the "other", did you see this happen with your MM/MW? How did you feel about it? Did it change your feelings towards the MM/MW or the BW/BH if it happened?

 

As an aside, this whole topic makes me feel ... yucky, for lack of better word. It feels like an authority figure position exacting punishment like one would to a child - not two adults in a relationship and I just don't see how that balance is ever restored - if it is???? Thoughts?

 

Was checking in real quick and darn!..you bring up some excellent topics AnotherRound. Sucked me right in.

 

I'm not a BS, but I have faced some situations where I felt betrayed. I agree with you and would not want someone to grovel for my forgiveness. I would hate it. I look at it this way, I'm an intuitive adult and can pretty much tell when someone is truly remorseful about a mistake they made. If they owned up and told me the whole truth and sincerely apologized I would be able to forgive them. There would be questions I'm sure, but as long as they were truthful and humble about it, I would be able to forgive. Now, if they blame shifted and tried to gaslight me that would be another story entirely. That I would not tolerate because it shows they don't own what they did and would most likely do it to me again in some other way. I would walk under those circumstances...for sure.

 

To me, honesty is the most important followed by what did they learn from it and what was going on with them that made them do it in the first place. I can tell when someone is blowing smoke up my a**, so I feel comfortable enough to know when someone is being truthful or not. That is what I would need to be able to work on the relationship.

 

I'm sure there would be triggers here and there and in those times I might need a little extra support and understanding. But again, people make mistakes and if they are owning them and using the experience to help them grow into a better person then they deserve a chance. I have certainly made enough mistakes to know that it would be hypcritcal of me to judge others harshly.

[MissBee]

THIS! That is exactly how I felt - that the balance would NEVER be restored. I guess I'm curious as to how people restore that balance successfully - or, if there are lingering imbalances due to the upset that last forever? I know it's different for everyone, but statistically speaking?

 

For me, I just wouldn't have the energy or the strength to get through all of that to find out if it ever restored back to equality. It just wasn't worth it in my case with my exH - I don't think he and I would have ever been healthy again - as we weren't that healthy together to begin with. Ya know?

 

I think each person has to make the call for themselves based on the circumstance.

 

For me I find it hard to imagine reconciliation hypothetically just as I also found it difficult to imagine being secure in an open relationship with my exAP for similar reasons: would I be able to ignore his flawed behaviors I witnessed by him cheating on someone else, and would I be able to just act like he wouldn't do it to me? Some OW seem to be able to go on to do that (successfully or in some cases, they end up cheated on themselves) and some have responded, no way would I marry my MM if he were single, he's a cheater.

 

In both cases two people choose to give a chance to someone who has shown questionable behavior. It is up to them to decide how/what this person can do to show that this flaw has been neutralized and won't be a likely problem in the future. That indeed takes lots of energy, maybe more so for a BS, than OW, as I think the BS was cheated on so has a different experience or repairing broken trust, while an OW can easier chalk it up to it being a blip on his character that isn't important, or he just loves her more or somne other reason that won't require her to feel like she has to be vigilant and build anything. There is also a pitfall to this, as if this person has issues which led to cheating, and an OW doesn't recognize it as HIS issue, then she may be blindsided later on because she never required him to deal with this before becoming her open partner.

 

 

I am open to the idea that I could find it in me to reconcile depending on the circumstance, but indeed, just imagining it hypothetically without a real person, real life with them, real memories, real love etc. it's difficult to say. But I do think people can do it and it can be the right choice. I think I might try, depending, but if I felt like I was perpetually wanting to punish, I resented him, I was hypervigilant, for a longer period than I'd like, I'd probably throw the towel in.

[AnotherRound]

OK no, I didn't think of that as a balance inequality because he was and is free to check up on me in exactly the way I would do to him.

 

Okay, that makes sense. I guess for me, since I knew that my exH didn't need to check up on me, that it just felt really imbalanced.

 

I think those that reconcile successfully and are able to restore that balance are amazingly strong and determined people. I don't have that ability - or at least, don't have the ability to even give it a shot bc I don't think I would ever get there. I can be pretty persistent, but if I get one iota of feeling that someone isn't "choosing" to be with me and be faithful, I'm out of there. And that's what it felt like to me with my exH - that he was not choosing to be with me out of love - but because he was afraid of the marriage ending. It just didn't seem genuine with him to me.

 

I remember your story from before, and I was always impressed with your level headedness and determination. And glad that you have had a successful outcome.

[LadyGrey]

Zing.........so now that you've gotten your intellectual stimulation and had your fun and gotten your material, off she goes. Quoting you AR.

 

We are dismissed folks.

 

 

 

Intellectual stimulation is what I do for fun when I have down time. This is that for me - not that it's fun to see people in pain. But it is definitely interesting to read about situations and reactions on here, and definitely relevant to anyone who is in the field of psychology. I get a lot of insight from these boards that helps me with my clients.

 

As far as papers go - I collect information from all over the place for them. Anything that is public is accessible and can be used as background information for anything. I would never use anyone's name or identifying information of course, but all insight gathered obviously affects my thinking and hypothesis and such. Nothing is new, no idea is unique - you know, that sort of thing.

 

And as for studying - I have studied it. I completed the required studying to obtain the degrees, lol. I'm not a student, I meant.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback from those who took the time to do so honestly.

[georgia girl]

Here's my reaction as a married woman. I would be out. There's no need to check up on my wandering spouse, no need to make him "grovel" as you put it. I'm out.

 

The standard was set well before we got married and I actually walked away once when we were dating over another issue not as serious as this. But, if he cheated, I'm outta there. Fundamentally for me, there are standards you have to meet to be in my life. I do not lie, cheat or manipulate my husband, nor would I ever tolerate it back. And once you shatter the glass by violating something so important to me and our relationship, it's over. The shards cannot be put back together.

 

My reaction is based on self-value and the idea that for me, this is a no-go area. However, I can see where for others, while that glass is still broken there is an incentive to put it back together. You're talking about whole lives here. Not just the romantic pieces of a spousal relationship, but shared families, friends, assets, retirements, community/social service commitments, even an enjoined identity.

 

So yes, if a married partner decides to allow a cheating partner to work to repair their relationship, you had best believe there should be a whole lot of grovelling going on. He broke the trust and violated the family. There is no way around that. And yes, he needs to be held accountable. And he needs to be in the thick of things, engaged in making the marriage work and focused on making amends to the person he stood before God, family and friends and promised to do right by. That's simply being held accountable.

 

Perhaps its different with affair partners. Perhaps there wasn't as much on the line or the circumstances - APs know that they are not the only person in the married partner's life - that allow for flexibility. But there isn't in marriage. Trust is critical and someone who violates your trust must earn it back.

 

Now, after a period of time has passed and the betrayed spouse has still not healed, then I think there are some fundamental issues the couple needs to decide. Would counselling help? Is the lack of trust now doing as much damage as the violation of trust? Has the relationship become destructive to both? In those cases, I think folks should really consider that the healthiest solution is to walk away from something unrepairable.

 

I answered your question honestly as I took it to be genuine. However, I think there is also an underlying need betrayed by your phraseology to somehow diminish the spouse or elevate the affair partner by delineating between the reactions. I don't think that's a fair comparison. Both persons have vastly different investments and expectations - it's like comparing apples and oranges. The only thing they have in common is the man they unfortunately both love.

[AnotherRound]

I think each person has to make the call for themselves based on the circumstance.

 

For me I find it hard to imagine reconciliation hypothetically just as I also found it difficult to imagine being secure in an open relationship with my exAP for similar reasons: would I be able to ignore his flawed behaviors I witnessed by him cheating on someone else, and would I be able to just act like he wouldn't do it to me? Some OW seem to be able to go on to do that (successfully or in some cases, they end up cheated on themselves) and some have responded, no way would I marry my MM if he were single, he's a cheater.

 

In both cases two people choose to give a chance to someone who has shown questionable behavior. It is up to them to decide how/what this person can do to show that this flaw has been neutralized and won't be a likely problem in the future. That indeed takes lots of energy, maybe more so for a BS, than OW, as I think the BS was cheated on so has a different experience or repairing broken trust, while an OW can easier chalk it up to it being a blip on his character that isn't important, or he just loves her more or somne other reason that won't require her to feel like she has to be vigilant and build anything. There is also a pitfall to this, as if this person has issues which led to cheating, and an OW doesn't recognize it as HIS issue, then she may be blindsided later on because she never required him to deal with this before becoming her open partner.

 

 

I am open to the idea that I could find it in me to reconcile depending on the circumstance, but indeed, just imagining it hypothetically without a real person, real life with them, real memories, real love etc. it's difficult to say. But I do think people can do it and it can be the right choice. I think I might try, depending, but if I felt like I was perpetually wanting to punish, I resented him, I was hypervigilant, for a longer period than I'd like, I'd probably throw the towel in.

 

That's it. I honestly knew, in my heart of hearts, that I would never truly forgive my exH for his affair. I knew that carrying on was only prolonging the inevitable - and that I would consistently think that I had more "rights" in the relationship. I think that I would have always felt validated in any behaviors towards him - and that is definitely MY weakness, not anyone else's.

[AnotherRound]

Here's my reaction as a married woman. I would be out. There's no need to check up on my wandering spouse, no need to make him "grovel" as you put it. I'm out.

 

The standard was set well before we got married and I actually walked away once when we were dating over another issue not as serious as this. But, if he cheated, I'm outta there. Fundamentally for me, there are standards you have to meet to be in my life. I do not lie, cheat or manipulate my husband, nor would I ever tolerate it back. And once you shatter the glass by violating something so important to me and our relationship, it's over. The shards cannot be put back together.

 

My reaction is based on self-value and the idea that for me, this is a no-go area. However, I can see where for others, while that glass is still broken there is an incentive to put it back together. You're talking about whole lives here. Not just the romantic pieces of a spousal relationship, but shared families, friends, assets, retirements, community/social service commitments, even an enjoined identity.

 

So yes, if a married partner decides to allow a cheating partner to work to repair their relationship, you had best believe there should be a whole lot of grovelling going on. He broke the trust and violated the family. There is no way around that. And yes, he needs to be held accountable. And he needs to be in the thick of things, engaged in making the marriage work and focused on making amends to the person he stood before God, family and friends and promised to do right by. That's simply being held accountable.

 

Perhaps its different with affair partners. Perhaps there wasn't as much on the line or the circumstances - APs know that they are not the only person in the married partner's life - that allow for flexibility. But there isn't in marriage. Trust is critical and someone who violates your trust must earn it back.

 

Now, after a period of time has passed and the betrayed spouse has still not healed, then I think there are some fundamental issues the couple needs to decide. Would counselling help? Is the lack of trust now doing as much damage as the violation of trust? Has the relationship become destructive to both? In those cases, I think folks should really consider that the healthiest solution is to walk away from something unrepairable.

 

I answered your question honestly as I took it to be genuine. However, I think there is also an underlying need betrayed by your phraseology to somehow diminish the spouse or elevate the affair partner by delineating between the reactions. I don't think that's a fair comparison. Both persons have vastly different investments and expectations - it's like comparing apples and oranges. The only thing they have in common is the man they unfortunately both love.

 

No, I appreciate your honesty! This is what I was looking for. I'm not elevating or diminishing anyone - I was a BS and was an OW - I had both hats at different times.

 

I think when you said the shreds could not be put back together hits it exactly! That is exactly how I felt about my exH - it was almost a resignation feeling of "why even bother?" with him at that time in my life. I was young and naive and so hurt - and so damn angry! Angry at him, angry at myself, angry at us together - that it all just snowballed into this mess that I just knew it could never be untangled. Or, if it could, I didn't have the energy to even try. I literally just gave up on it and decided that starting something new was the best thing for me.

 

It worked out for me, but I wonder now had I honestly attempted a reconciliation, if it would have worked. I don't think so - but I will never know.

 

I think it's about recognizing when there is hope and admitting when there isn't. When there isn't, I wish people would just admit that and let it go - simply bc it seems healthier to me for all involved. I know that everyone has to figure out their own situation, and do what is right and true for themselves - it just seems so obvious sometimes that it's never going to balance again (but then it might which is surprising too!).

 

Thank you for your response...

[AnotherRound]

Most message boards have strict policies against such activities - using what you read here in a paper for another purpose. Allowing you to do so restricts the desire of others to be free with their thoughts and ideas and greatly reduces the intended use of the board itself.

 

You using information you gather here, particularly when you sparked the conversation, is in my opinion very unethical since you are unclear with your motives when you post such things.

 

If LS does NOT have such a policy, I will suggest one now. I will also suggest, again, that you not use anything I have stated here or any version of 'my' story, in anything you write or publish. Public or not, my intention in writing anything was not to be used in another's thesis.

 

I have explicitly denied you the ability to use my writings from this website. I'm sure you understand what that means and will act accordingly.

 

I have NO idea who you are, lol... so, how could I invade your privacy? And a thesis is done prior to obtaining a Doctorate - not after. I have already completed my thesis. As far as future writings - this is a public forum, an anonymous public forum. If anything was referenced ever, it wouldn't be in a professional paper which requires actual source citing. If anything, I would simply be able to better understand something a client stated because someone expressed it here and explained it in a way that helped me to understand it.

 

No writings will include anything about you or other posters. I can't say that the website isn't referenced at times simply as a support source (if appropriate), but it's a searchable public forum, so it shows up on a simple Google search anyway.

[AnotherRound]

No offense, but if you aren't a BS you cannot possibly understand what it takes to reconcile. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you have put in this post, but there is no betrayal in the world that can compare to the betrayal of a spouse in such an intimate manner. It is always viewed as less damaging than it is, until one experiences it.

 

I suppose the betrayal of a child by a parent would be very damaging too. I know it did a serious bit of damage to my H. But barring possibly that, it is simply not something one can envision.

 

Agreed. My exH had his affair shortly after my mother had died, very tragically. I was so young and was still reeling from that loss. I remember thinking that NOTHING in this world would hurt like losing my Mom did - it was gut wrenching. But then, I found out that exH was having an affair - and crazy thing was, it was comparable to the pain I felt from losing my Mother. In some ways, it was ever worse. My mother did not take her own life, someone else took it from her - so she didn't actively hurt me - but he did.

 

I will never forget that feeling - of standing at the bottom of my stairs, while he was at the top, lying to me to my face and how it felt like someone had punched me in the gut. I would have never been involved in a secretive affair for this reason. I will never be involved in anything of the sort ever again now - but I certainly would never participate in lying to someone - never.

[MissBee]

That's it. I honestly knew, in my heart of hearts, that I would never truly forgive my exH for his affair. I knew that carrying on was only prolonging the inevitable - and that I would consistently think that I had more "rights" in the relationship. I think that I would have always felt validated in any behaviors towards him - and that is definitely MY weakness, not anyone else's.

 

 

Yes I understand that. I think if you know in your heart of hearts what the score is, you should be true to that and not waste time.

 

I think the problem is for many that they don't often immediately know and have hope, are confused and do want things to work out, and for some it is only when they attempt reconciliation that they realize the truth about whether or not they can do it successfully or not.

 

I've always said if a boyfriend cheated on me, he will be IMMEDIATELY dismissed. Why? Because in a dating relationship ( esp for me, as I don't have any plans to live with, have major joint property or have kids with a man I'm not married to) my life is not that entwined with yours, and I am seeing if we should take the next step, so cheating will prove to me that I don't need to take the more "permanent" step of marriage with you. Whereas if I am already married to you, I obviously chose you carefully and thus have more reason to want to work on things and we also have more intertwined lives. So I can see myself not being able to throw the towel in on a M as easily, but I would be true to myself and really weigh if it is in fact worth it and not just give in to fear of being alone/starting over etc.

Edited March 12, 2013 by MissBee

[SidLyon]

No, I don't think reconciling is unhealthy. I think reconciling while having one partner beat another emotionally is unhealthy. If that doesn't happen, then I don't find it unhealthy. It's just something I see from time to time, or hear about and am wondering if anyone else sees how unhealthy that is? And like I said, maybe those are the reconciliations that just don't make it - because the balance is never restored, I have no idea.

 

I'm just seeing it and commenting on it and wondering if there are people that think it's healthy to have that kind of imbalance in a relationship. Because I have seen professionals state that this HAS to happen for reconciliation to be successful at all - that the WS must have total transparency and be open to all the anger the BS wants to throw at them.

 

Or, maybe I misunderstand reconciliation - could be. In that I interpret that transparency thing as "groveling" when that's not really what it is. I just think that it would feel that way to me from what I've experienced.

 

Reconciliation of a marriage can be healthy but I'm not sure what makes you think that the process of reconciliation involves one partner beating up the other emotionally. Wherever did you get that idea?

 

You do seem to be confusing transparency with emotional abuse and/or grovelling.

 

Transparency is all about regaining the BSs trust. It isn't forced upon the WS, and I doubt it will work at all if the WS is not interested in reconciling a marriage after infidelity.

 

The grovelling was an unexpected thing for me. It's not in my H's nature to grovel but it started instantly at d-day, long before I had a chance to work out for myself that NC with the AP and "transparency" were going to be reconciliation tools. He started the begging, pleading and grovelling immediately and they appeared to be a stress reaction in him rather than anything I prompted. I was too devastated to do anything useful and at that stage assumed we would be splitting up.

 

BTW we are more than 4 years post d-day.

 

The almost obsessional checking that I did in the early months has gone now and I assume that it's because I have regained a lot of trust for my fWH. We have also rebuilt our marriage and while it might not look a lot different to outsiders, it is very different to what it was. We treat each other very well, both make an effort especially with communication and do not take the other for granted.

[ComingInHot]

ar, " I'm open to it if someone can explain it - I just don't see how it's healthy"

 

I sense that about you. And because of that mind set, Reconciling probably wouldn't have been healthy for you or your betrayed spouse. For that reason I'm happy you are in a good place today just as many of us who remained M & worked to R, are happy as well

 

Did I grovel for him to stay? Nope.

Did he ask for a second chance after I told him to go? Yep

Did I trust him immediately after learning he cheated? Nope

Do most AP's trust immediately after engaging in an A? Don't know.

Did he earn my trust? Yep

Do I still hurt sometimes? Yep

Is it R worth it? ....... so far...*

[AnotherRound]

Yes I understand that. I think if you know in your heart of hearts what the score is, you should be true to that and not waste time.

 

I think the problem is for many that they don't often immediately know and have hope, are confused and do want things to work out, and for some it is only when they attempt reconciliation do they realize the truth about whether or not they can do it successfully or not.

 

I've always said if a boyfriend cheated on me, he will be IMMEDIATELY dismissed. Why? Because in a dating relationship ( esp for me, as I don't have any plans to live with, have major joint property or have kids with a man I'm not married to) my life is not that entwined with yours, and I am seeing if we should take the next step, so cheating will prove to me that I don't need to take the more "permanent" step of marriage with you. Whereas if I am already mqrried to you, I obviously chose you carefully and thus have more reason to want to work on things and we also have more intertwined lives. So I can see myself not being able to throw the towel in on a M as easily, but I would be true to myself and really weigh if it is in fact worth it and not just give in to fear of being alone/starting over etc.

 

This is probably my biggest issue against marriage. I kind of feel like when you do intertwine all of those things together, you muddy up the relationship too much. That is just MY opinion - and probably one that is strong enough that I won't ever be married again. I just want a relationship that maintains because both of us want to be there - not simply out of fear of having to disentangle all of those other parts of it.

 

I know, logically, that there is going to be overlapping of those things to some extent - and I honestly don't know how I would deal with all of that if that situation happened in my life. As of now, I have kept it at - I own my own house, control my own money, don't mingle all of those things together and that has worked. If a relationship was to progress enough to even consider co-mingling (which would take a LONG time for me I think for this very reason) I don't know how I would work that out honestly.

 

I like the freedom I have to be able to disengage easily if need be. Without much hassle - I don't have to move, or divy up possessions, or split up finances, or worry about how a bill is going to get paid. All of those things are completely independent of my SO in my life - and would carry on as normal whether he is there or not. I like that idea - that our relationship is solely based on love and willingness to be together - no other "noise" in there, just that. And if either of us decides that it isn't where we need or want to be, even though it would be painful, separating our lives again would be fairly easily and hassle free. No need for court, no need for legal involvement - just go back to how it was prior to "us".

[AnotherRound]

I

Reconciliation of a marriage can be healthy but I'm not sure what makes you think that the process of reconciliation involves one partner beating up the other emotionally. Wherever did you get that idea?

 

You do seem to be confusing transparency with emotional abuse and/or grovelling.

 

Transparency is all about regaining the BSs trust. It isn't forced upon the WS, and I doubt it will work at all if the WS is not interested in reconciling a marriage after infidelity.

 

The grovelling was an unexpected thing for me. It's not in my H's nature to grovel but it started instantly at d-day, long before I had a chance to work out for myself that NC with the AP and "transparency" were going to be reconciliation tools. He started the begging, pleading and grovelling immediately and they appeared to be a stress reaction in him rather than anything I prompted. I was too devastated to do anything useful and at that stage assumed we would be splitting up.

 

BTW we are more than 4 years post d-day.

 

The almost obsessional checking that I did in the early months has gone now and I assume that it's because I have regained a lot of trust for my fWH. We have also rebuilt our marriage and while it might not look a lot different to outsiders, it is very different to what it was. We treat each other very well, both make an effort especially with communication and do not take the other for granted.

 

Yeah, I'm seeing that now - that I do see it as groveling - when it reality it doesn't have to be. I wonder where that comes from in me, honestly... That I equate that with "begging" or "beating up the other person emotionally". Which would also explain why when I think of myself doing those things, I feel ashamed - and wouldn't want any part of it.

 

And, in my head, I guess that's how I pictured a reconciliation - just that kind of thing going on forever, never restoring to a good balance. No idea why I had that idea, or where it came from. Thank you for this - it makes absolute sense to me.

[AnotherRound]

ar, " I'm open to it if someone can explain it - I just don't see how it's healthy"

 

I sense that about you. And because of that mind set, Reconciling probably wouldn't have been healthy for you or your betrayed spouse. For that reason I'm happy you are in a good place today just as many of us who remained M & worked to R, are happy as well

 

Did I grovel for him to stay? Nope.

Did he ask for a second chance after I told him to go? Yep

Did I trust him immediately after learning he cheated? Nope

Do most AP's trust immediately after engaging in an A? Don't know.

Did he earn my trust? Yep

Do I still hurt sometimes? Yep

Is it R worth it? ....... so far...*

 

LOVE this post. Thank you! I agree, it wouldn't have been healthy for me or my exH - and that was mostly me, I'm sure as he was very willing to work it out.

 

I am glad that your situation worked out - and I'm glad that I'm learning some insight into the reconciliation process - because I honestly just imagined this imbalanced thing FOREVER and that freaked me out!

[MissBee]

This is probably my biggest issue against marriage. I kind of feel like when you do intertwine all of those things together, you muddy up the relationship too much. That is just MY opinion - and probably one that is strong enough that I won't ever be married again. I just want a relationship that maintains because both of us want to be there - not simply out of fear of having to disentangle all of those other parts of it.

 

I know, logically, that there is going to be overlapping of those things to some extent - and I honestly don't know how I would deal with all of that if that situation happened in my life. As of now, I have kept it at - I own my own house, control my own money, don't mingle all of those things together and that has worked. If a relationship was to progress enough to even consider co-mingling (which would take a LONG time for me I think for this very reason) I don't know how I would work that out honestly.

 

I like the freedom I have to be able to disengage easily if need be. Without much hassle - I don't have to move, or divy up possessions, or split up finances, or worry about how a bill is going to get paid. All of those things are completely independent of my SO in my life - and would carry on as normal whether he is there or not. I like that idea - that our relationship is solely based on love and willingness to be together - no other "noise" in there, just that. And if either of us decides that it isn't where we need or want to be, even though it would be painful, separating our lives again would be fairly easily and hassle free. No need for court, no need for legal involvement - just go back to how it was prior to "us".

 

I think if people want to be loosely committed that is completely fine.

 

For me, I am more terrified of intertwining my life, without marriage. As many people still have kids, dogs, houses, businesses etc. within non-marital relationships...that to me is a scarier prospect. I don't want to do that with someone I'm not married to.

 

But the reality is that having someone as your life partner adds "noise' as life is more than just love and romance and if you have a life together, you will inevitably be entangled because life simply comes with other stuff. I read a relationship book which made such a good distinction, which says that many people afraid of commitment do not want a relationship, they want romance. I admit that that has been me at times, and that isn't wrong per se, but certainly is a specific mentality. Romance is more of that free will to love and be loved and come and go, but that isn't really a marriage or relationship. I sometimes wonder can I really marry, as I know marriage is not just I love you, you love me, let's have breakfast in bed and trips away and if I can't be bothered I walk away. It comes with "noise". Without noise you have merely a romance but not a relationship. Even familial and platonic relationships aren't just you're my friend or sister once I feel good but if not see ya...it comes with work, ups, downs, and the "noise" or better yet mementos and accessories, that make life and that you inevitably collect along the way of any sustained relationship.

[underwater2010]

I think of the balance inequality as one partner having kind of a golden ticket for any kind of behavior for an amount of time, or maybe forever?

I don't know if this ever actually happens - but it feels to me like a precedent is set up by this. This kind of , "I can do whatever I want bc you had an affair" attitude. Maybe that's not how it is at all - maybe it just seems like it to me bc I'm hearing people express it at a certain (maybe really early?) time in their reconciliation efforts?

 

No that is not how it works in a true reconciliation. It is anger, tears, no sleep and paranoia. It is begging by the WS for forgivenes and the BS willing to set aside all metioned before in order to forgive and move on. It is the WS owning their wrong and making it right. It is the BS understanding why and fixing what they can. It is NOT a jail sentence. It is NOT groveling as you call it. It is two people who truly love each other taking a risk at a second chance and making a better marriage than it was before.

 

I just know for me that I honestly feel ashamed of myself if I "chase" someone at all. Not that reconciling is chasing - but some of those behaviors that I've heard are necessary (checking up on them for instance) feels like "chasing" to me. It feels to me like I am forcing myself onto someone else when their actions are telling me that they don't want to be with me in an equal relationship?

 

Then the love of yourself is greater than that of which you are willing to give. The chase, as you call it, is a reminder that you truly love and cannot be without that person (in true reconciliation not cake eating). I am sorry but if the WS cannot act like an adult and hide themselves in the dark than they deserve to be checked up on like a child. That is how we realize that the WS's actions speak louder than the crap flowing out of the WS's mouth.

 

I will say that most WS's are given the opportunity leave when their affair is discovered. They stay because they want to.

 

 

I have a feeling this is much more MY issue than anyone else's. That I have some unique feelings about this and that I'm definitely not the norm - that what feels to me like submission (?) is to others normal and healthy and acceptable. Whereas to me, it seems terribly unhealthy and I KNOW I wouldn't be comfortable with it at all.

 

That is fair. And explains why you would never be able to reconcile. I doubt you would ever be able to forgive a WS.

 

Huh - probably why the reconciliation efforts of my exH just never sat well - bc it felt VERY imbalanced to me. Even though I had not had the affair, and he had - I knew that I had done things wrong in the relationship too and I just didn't feel like that balance could ever be restored. Balance meaning - we were equal partners in the relationship with equal investment.

 

I am sorry to hear that. But please try to understand why some of are willing to work at our marriages rather than throwing them away.

[AnotherRound]

I think if people want to be loosely committed that is completely fine.

 

For me, I am more terrified of intertwining my life, without marriage. As many people still have kids, dogs, houses, businesses etc. within non-marital relationships...that to me is a scarier prospect. I don't want to do that with someone I'm not married to.

 

But the reality is that having someone as your life partner adds "noise' as life is more than just love and romance and if you have a life together, you will inevitably be entangled because life simply comes with other stuff. I read a relationship book which made such a good distinction, which says that many people afraid of commitment do not want a relationship, they want romance. I admit that that has been me at times, and that isn't wrong per se, but certainly is a specific mentality. Romance is more of that free will to love and be loved and come and go, but that isn't really a marriage or relationship. I sometimes wonder can I really marry, as I know marriage is not just I love you, you love me, let's have breakfast in bed and trips away and if I can't be bothered I walk away. It comes with "noise". Without noise you have merely a romance but not a relationship. Even familial and platonic relationships aren't just you're my friend or sister once I feel good but if not see ya...it comes with work, ups, downs, and the "noise" or better yet mementos and accessories, that make life and that you inevitably collect along the way of any sustained relationship.

 

Interesting. I want the prolonged relationship, and my current SO is "in" with my family and friends, and I with his. We just don't mingle our money, our assets and such... we each have separate, independent lives that way. We are not "dependent" on one another in that way.

 

I didn't mean to give the impression that we aren't connected, quite the opposite. We travel to see our family together and are very much a couple. We just maintain a lot of that separation that marriage doesn't always allow for.

 

Like I said, there is going to be entanglement no matter how you handle it, it's unavoidable when two people become a "couple". But for us, there would be no need for legal involvement if that was to end. We maintain enough separation that it would be fairly easy to just kind of slip back into that single life. We would miss each other, and have all the "normal" reactions to any break up - but without all the added extra stuff. No waiting for a certain amount of days for it to be "legal", not division of property, no divying up of things we own (we have separate houses and everything needed for each on our own). We have only been dating for 6 months or so, so we aren't anywhere near talking about marriage or living together - so it has not been an issue thus far.

 

Like I said, I have no idea how I would handle it when that day comes, if it did. I'm pretty sure I won't marry again - it feels far too confining for me personally. I could imagine living together, but never mingling our finances - or quitting my career or whatever - as I would want to retain my financial independence for sure! I love that he loves my family and they love him, and they would be sad to see him go if he did, but there are no children, and my pets are mine and his are his.

 

It's difficult to imagine bc I haven't been faced with it as of yet. We have discussed it a little - in that way you do when you're in the honeymoon phase and it feels like it will last forever, but no serious moves made (at only 6 months, I can't even fathom it yet!).

 

Maybe it's just the financial piece I like separate - in that it can be split and nobody has to lose anything per se. And there is no legal obligation, which I'm extremely uncomfortable with mixing legal with love - that is of course, just MY opinion and feeling, it just feels very "wrong" to me for whatever reason.

[spice4life]

No offense, but if you aren't a BS you cannot possibly understand what it takes to reconcile. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you have put in this post, but there is no betrayal in the world that can compare to the betrayal of a spouse in such an intimate manner. It is always viewed as less damaging than it is, until one experiences it.

 

I suppose the betrayal of a child by a parent would be very damaging too. I know it did a serious bit of damage to my H. But barring possibly that, it is simply not something one can envision.

 

I understand what you are saying, but don't make assumptions that I don't know what it means to go through it. While my situation was different it was STILL an extremely painful experience. You are just going to have to trust me on that one.

[MissBee]

Interesting. I want the prolonged relationship, and my current SO is "in" with my family and friends, and I with his. We just don't mingle our money, our assets and such... we each have separate, independent lives that way. We are not "dependent" on one another in that way.

 

I didn't mean to give the impression that we aren't connected, quite the opposite. We travel to see our family together and are very much a couple. We just maintain a lot of that separation that marriage doesn't always allow for.

 

Like I said, there is going to be entanglement no matter how you handle it, it's unavoidable when two people become a "couple". But for us, there would be no need for legal involvement if that was to end. We maintain enough separation that it would be fairly easy to just kind of slip back into that single life. We would miss each other, and have all the "normal" reactions to any break up - but without all the added extra stuff. No waiting for a certain amount of days for it to be "legal", not division of property, no divying up of things we own (we have separate houses and everything needed for each on our own). We have only been dating for 6 months or so, so we aren't anywhere near talking about marriage or living together - so it has not been an issue thus far.

 

Like I said, I have no idea how I would handle it when that day comes, if it did. I'm pretty sure I won't marry again - it feels far too confining for me personally. I could imagine living together, but never mingling our finances - or quitting my career or whatever - as I would want to retain my financial independence for sure! I love that he loves my family and they love him, and they would be sad to see him go if he did, but there are no children, and my pets are mine and his are his.

 

It's difficult to imagine bc I haven't been faced with it as of yet. We have discussed it a little - in that way you do when you're in the honeymoon phase and it feels like it will last forever, but no serious moves made (at only 6 months, I can't even fathom it yet!).

 

Maybe it's just the financial piece I like separate - in that it can be split and nobody has to lose anything per se. And there is no legal obligation, which I'm extremely uncomfortable with mixing legal with love - that is of course, just MY opinion and feeling, it just feels very "wrong" to me for whatever reason.

 

I am with you re: finances. I always cringe when people discuss joint bank accounts. I'm like WHY??? I see no reason why that is necessary, except I can see it where we decide on an account for bills or a specific savings account where we both put a certain amount of our income in. But other than that, I would like to continue having my own bank account and you yours and of course we will be transparent with each other about it. I won't hide how much I make or have but I simply don't feel the need to once we're a couple or M all of a sudden we have no separate monies. I am uncomfortable with that, but others do as they see fit.

 

Yes, being dependent on and entangled are different. Entangled comes by default but doesn't mean you depend on this person. I have no plans to be dependent on a man. I have every plan to have my own finances, own bank account, own career, own friends, own hobbies etc and maintain a high degree of this is who MissBee is outside of Mr.Bee , yet as you said, the mere fact of being a couple, some things get intertwined.

 

I don't see myself being distraught about disentangling assets in a divorce. I see myself being upset at the disentanglement that comes emotionally, with our other relationships we've formed as a couple, friendships, family ties, etc. This is also present in serious non-married relationships...those are often the painful entanglements to dissolve. I want to be in a place when I marry where I can sustain a decent life without a husband, so I never worry that divorce will leave me broke and penniless or battling for assets...but rather, the entanglements I imagine as more difficult to undo are simply the non-material bonds and relationships you form as a married couple, especially one with kids, that automatic sharing and team work etc that now has to be completely rethought.