As an "other" - would you respond in this way?

[LFH]

AR, you said you see LS as fun??? Such serious subjects are fun to you??

 

Really?

 

For me.. it's just a piece of my life, I find nothing 'fun' about the topics.

 

I think, and I may be completely off base, that I get what AR is saying to a degree. There are some instances where I'll read about how a spouse still feels compelled to check up, or where there almost seems to be a bit of.. something. Almost like there is no getting past it? Like it becomes such a big part of the marriage that there's no room for anything else. I'm really not trying to be offensive, I'm really not.. but every once in a while a post will come up where I think to myself, oh no, there is NO WAY I would live like either side of that. That if it had to stay such a big part of the relationship forever, then there is no way it could be worth it to me. Not all posts are like this, but there are some. There also are some posters who occasionally talk about wanting to make their WS pay for the rest of their life, fortunatly those are few and far between.

 

I've never claimed to be able to understand reconciliation, but I've already said I have forgiveness issues, so I don't necessarily expect to understand how or why someone would make that choice, but hey, it's not for me to have to do so.

 

AND I could be totally wrong but I think that might be what AR was trying to get at.

Edited March 12, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[cocorico]

I'm curious about this, and didn't want to TJ or participate where it would possibly trigger BSs - so, I'm curious for those others who may have been BSs too - did you think that punishing your BS was a healthy way to carry on? Such as - attempting to control them and their actions, invading their privacy in an attempt to verify where they were and such, attempting to limit their friendships with others? Is it just me, or does this seem terribly unhealthy to anyone else too? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I sometimes see a reconciliation happening where the BS expects "groveling" from the WS and seems to think that this is appropriate and healthy. I do NOT agree with this at all - as begging in any relationship seems unhealthy - and kind of pointless to me? As does feeling some kind of security or validation from someone else groveling to me bc they made a mistake?

 

Would you continue on in a relationship like this? As the "other", did you see this happen with your MM/MW? How did you feel about it? Did it change your feelings towards the MM/MW or the BW/BH if it happened?

 

As an aside, this whole topic makes me feel ... yucky, for lack of better word. It feels like an authority figure position exacting punishment like one would to a child - not two adults in a relationship and I just don't see how that balance is ever restored - if it is???? Thoughts?

 

I am M to a fWS. I would not be with him if I did not feel I could trust him. I would rather be alone than in a R that required snooping or checking or the kind of control suggested in the OP. and I know my H would run from a R like that too - he was in such a R for 30 years, it's what led the A to seem attractive to him, in the first place.

 

To me, that's not a partnership. And if it's not a proper partnership, why would I be interested?

[kristismiles]

I'm curious about this, and didn't want to TJ or participate where it would possibly trigger BSs - so, I'm curious for those others who may have been BSs too - did you think that punishing your BS was a healthy way to carry on? Such as - attempting to control them and their actions, invading their privacy in an attempt to verify where they were and such, attempting to limit their friendships with others? Is it just me, or does this seem terribly unhealthy to anyone else too? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I sometimes see a reconciliation happening where the BS expects "groveling" from the WS and seems to think that this is appropriate and healthy. I do NOT agree with this at all - as begging in any relationship seems unhealthy - and kind of pointless to me? As does feeling some kind of security or validation from someone else groveling to me bc they made a mistake?

 

Would you continue on in a relationship like this? As the "other", did you see this happen with your MM/MW? How did you feel about it? Did it change your feelings towards the MM/MW or the BW/BH if it happened?

 

As an aside, this whole topic makes me feel ... yucky, for lack of better word. It feels like an authority figure position exacting punishment like one would to a child - not two adults in a relationship and I just don't see how that balance is ever restored - if it is???? Thoughts?

 

omgoodness does not a married person grovel to his other daily to just give him more time to dump the family for them? LOL These posts are so humorous trying to paint the BS as the big meanie making the wanderer do things. Goodness it's like the wanderer has no brain of their own and isn't exactly where they want to be doing what they want to be doing. Cake eating and lying to everyone to have a little more fun. He will grovel to both parties to get another ego hit.

[waterwoman]

"This kind of , "I can do whatever I want bc you had an affair" attitude. Maybe that's not how it is at all - maybe it just seems like it to me bc I'm hearing people express it at a certain (maybe really early?) time in their reconciliation efforts? "

 

Nope never had that attitude. I have seen some BS on LS who do seem to become a bit presecriptive of their WS after d-day and that's up to them of course but I can't say it's something I would advocate. H doesn't do grovelling and I don't do punishing. For a period of time he made himself transparent to me in every way - his choice, not my demand. I think if he didn't do that I'd struggle to reconcile because yes, the trust was compromised for a time.

 

Hope no-one comes in there with an open flame - all the straw is very flammable.....

[Owl]

I guess for me, I can't imagine living my life that way. I just don't do the "checking up on someone" thing. I find it to be humiliating that I would even have to do so, let alone actually doing it.

 

I guess I also feel that once that trust is eroded to that point, where someone feels that they have to do this in order to keep the relationship "safe" that the balance is just too far gone.

 

I mean, aren't there some things that are just beyond repair? And, why are there people who can't/don't accept that? I mean - why try to revive the dead horse when you KNOW it's dead? It just seems such a hard thing to come back from - and seems like there would be some really unhealthy habits formed in that "after the A" time that would keep that particular relationship from ever being healthy again. ???

 

If an A is still going on - then to me, there is no marriage - not in any "real" sense of the word (commitment, love, loyalty, etc.). If the A is over and the couple has agreed to move on, past the affair, then why the need to "check up on" or "snoop" or control or set limits... I mean, that's not moving past it - that's incorporating into your marriage - that imbalance, that distrust - isn't it? That doesn't seem like "moving on" to me... it seems like a whole different relationship is formed - one of unhealthy habits and no trust. ????

 

I find this viewpoint fascinating.

 

As a COUNSELOR...you view a marriage that has been devestated by infidelity as unreconcilable???

 

Trust can never be rebuilt???

 

That infidelity indicates that there's no love???

 

And that verification as a means to rebuild trust after it has been eroded is unhealthy???

 

REALLY???

 

What would you advise someone to do...divorce and move on because clearly its hopeless??? In 100% of these situations as described???

 

Glad you weren't our MC...we'd have never rebuilt our marriage with that kind of assistance. Luckily our MC had a different viewpoint that was extremely helpful in our rebuilding process.

[cocorico]

I find this viewpoint fascinating.

 

As a COUNSELOR...you view a marriage that has been devestated by infidelity as unreconcilable???

 

Trust can never be rebuilt???

 

That infidelity indicates that there's no love???

 

And that verification as a means to rebuild trust after it has been eroded is unhealthy???

 

REALLY???

 

What would you advise someone to do...divorce and move on because clearly its hopeless??? In 100% of these situations as described???

 

Glad you weren't our MC...we'd have never rebuilt our marriage with that kind of assistance. Luckily our MC had a different viewpoint that was extremely helpful in our rebuilding process.

 

Good counsellors do not prescribe to their clients. They help their clients work out for themselves what their own "best outcome" would be.

[Owl]

Good counsellors do not prescribe to their clients. They help their clients work out for themselves what their own "best outcome" would be.

 

Agreed...but I see no indicator that this 'counselor' would do so based on what she described in her initial posts.

 

She's convinced that it's a hopeless situation based on her own biases...I sure wouldn't want to be working with a counselor with that viewpoint.

 

And it's fascinating to me as well, given the HUGE amount of evidence contrary to her views...my reconciled marriage as a prime example.

 

I'm really interested in hearing what she'd tell a couple standing in front of her trying to reconcile.

[Owl]

I guess what resonated in all of this to me is that it's hard to imagine someone who feels the way described...

 

...that eroded trust can't be rebuilt.

 

...that willingly allowing someone to verify your truthfulness to rebuild trustworthiness after it's been broken isn't a viable method for doing so.

 

...that apparently marriages impacted by infidelity are beyond recovery (dead horses).

 

...that there's not a marriage if infidelity is present.

 

 

...as someone trained to understand and work with humans and human emotion in a capacity to help them deal and cope with emotional situations.

 

It demonstrates the opposite to me...someone who does NOT have a clear understanding on marriages, on trust and how it's built/rebuilt, nor how a relationship that has been damaged can be recovered/repaired/renewed.

[angie2443]

Allow me to cut this verbosity down. You've been attempting to say this across multiple threads:

 

Another Round thinks reconciliation is an unhealthy choice.

 

There. Then we can cut out the false assumptions about what's going, motivations, and just made up scenarios- strawmen, as they are, that you keep setting up and knocking down.

 

I totally respect that when you were a BS, you did not reconcile. totally understand.

 

I also understand that you then became not an other woman, and became a known part of someone else's marriage. So the typical affair judgments have nothing to do with you.

 

Totally get it.

 

But please, for the love of peanut butter, stop acting like couples who chose differently are in a jail with the betrayed spouse as a warden.

 

Happy and healthy reconciled couples act nothing like the behaviors you describe. Nothing.

 

And for the record? I have zero desire to check up on my spouse. He knows- if he cheats again, I am out the door. It's up to him to be the man he can be, and not make bad choices again. He offers me transparency- and I have never ever asked for it. He gets it.

 

I'm glad someone here could figure this out.

[AnotherRound]

All good points.

 

First, I wasn't talking about my exMM in this at all - I was asking about a behavior that seems unhealthy to me for certain (many?) people and wondering why they choose to remain in a relationship that has these types of "restrictions".

 

Secondly - as a counselor, I guide people through a LOT of situations that I have never experienced and wouldn't choose to participate in. Domestic violence being a big one that comes to mind. My only concern is that my client does what is best for them, that they are safe and healthy - and I help them get there. I don't tell them where they SHOULD be - that's not my decision to make. If they are in mortal danger - I take action, but below that - it is their choice.

 

If someone chooses to stay with a partner who is emotionally abusive - that is their choice. It is not my right to tell them that they are wrong, or stupid, or need to be somewhere else. I help them work on their stuff - and sometimes that leads them to want to NOT be in the abusive relationship. Sometimes, they just want coping skills so that they can stay - and that is their choice.

 

When I do couple's counseling - I lead them where they want to go. If they want to reconcile, that's what I help them do. Many couples do choose this, but then are unable or unwilling to actually make that work. I don't make it work for them - I can't move in with them and beat them into submission - that is their gig. I give them the tools they need - and they choose to use them or not.

 

What's silly to me is expecting a certain outcome from counseling FROM the counselor. Thing is, if you asked any of my clients, they would have NO idea how I personally feel about marriage or my own relationship boundaries - bc it's totally irrelevant to them and their situations. To me - telling a counselor that you want a certain outcome (reconciliation) is like going to the doctor and telling them that they WILL cure your cancer - and if they don't, then they didn't do their job correctly and it was their fault the cancer is still there if it isn't cured.

 

Hopes for a certain outcome? Sure. But, if it's unrealistic - then it's unrealistic - I don't make those decisions, the universe does (or god if you lean that way) - or the couples do. Just because they WANT reconciliation does not mean it's going to work - nor does it mean it's the healthiest thing for them. I don't tell them it's unhealthy (even if it is) because judgment doesn't belong in a session that way. What I do though, is point out when they are having side effects of being unhealthy and help them find their own way as to why they choose unhealthy things in their life. And, help them accept the reality that if they keep doing what they've always done, they will keep getting what they've always gotten. If they are okay with that, or resigned to it - or accept it - more power to them. It's sad - but a main rule in this profession is, never work harder than your clients do.

 

You can't make people do anything - counselor or not. You can show them how to fish - but if they choose to starve - you don't force feed them what is good for them. Ya know?

 

Counselors should never make guarantees - if they do, they are liars, and unethical to boot. As a counselor, you have NO idea what you are getting into when that initial session begins. Sometimes, from session one I can see that a relationship is not going to work. I work just as hard for them as I do anyone else - give them more chance that it might work than they would have had without me. Sometimes, even that isn't enough - and eventually - they either fix it, or resign themselves to it - or, they get out. Those are their choices, not mine.

 

Also, in a relationship session - there are 2 people. If they are at cross purposes - whose side do you think I should "take"? The one that wants reconciliation? What about the spouse that is telling us they are done? Couple's counseling is very difficult - triangles can be formed by someone who wants a certain outcome - and I see the ugly behind the facades a LOT (not all relationships obviously, but wow, some ugliness in people sometimes!). Problem is - with 2 people involved - it's even more difficult to get a "desired" outcome.

 

 

If you had a "counselor" that told you to reconcile even if it wasn't the healthiest route for you, and that worked for you - great. But, any counselor that tells you what you should do is not counseling - they are giving advice - and that is NOT counseling. If that's what someone wants - to force things that aren't healthy or natural, and their counselor does that for them, then all is good - even though that counselor is probably not following best practices bc we are taught that in counseling 101. But hey, if it works for them and their clients and everyone is happy - no harm I guess - even if it leaves people in unhealthy situations at the counselor's urging. Many religious counselors do this because they don't believe in divorce. Myself, my beliefs are irrelevant - I don't force things at all - I gently guide the clients to where THEY want and need go go.

 

Anyway, I have seen it here, and IRL, where there are couples who never recover from infidelity - yet they stay together and they DO keep this damaged "right after the A" relationship for the rest of their lives. I personally, in my own life, would not participate in that. A healthy reconciliation? Sure - I could participate in that. Problem is - I just haven't seen a lot of that - more unhappy and unhealthy than reconciled. I don't know the statistics - but maybe that's the norm - that "most" don't make it - and if so, it's probably bc of the very behaviors I have talked about here. Because in all honesty - most people cannot withstand an unhealthy situation infinitely - it wears you down, emotionally and physically - and eventually, something gives. So, it is my guess that this is what is happening sometimes - that the balance is never restored. They can stay and be imbalanced - that's their choice. Me? I wouldn't stay if it couldn't be restored.

 

Professional and personal life, especially as a counselor, are absolutely separate. I know it's hard to understand how we do it for some people - but it's a skill that is beat into us. Once I step in that session - I AM a blank slate for that couple with no opinions at all. I am just - knowledge of how to figure out what is healthy and constructive for each of them. That is a skill that can't be taught - and I have seen more than a few people weeded out of programs bc they just couldn't do this. They insisted on forcing their beliefs on their clients - pushing their clients where THEY thought the clients should go... they are not counselors now.

[LFH]

I guess what resonated in all of this to me is that it's hard to imagine someone who feels the way described...

 

...that eroded trust can't be rebuilt.

 

...that willingly allowing someone to verify your truthfulness to rebuild trustworthiness after it's been broken isn't a viable method for doing so.

 

...that apparently marriages impacted by infidelity are beyond recovery (dead horses).

 

...that there's not a marriage if infidelity is present.

 

 

...as someone trained to understand and work with humans and human emotion in a capacity to help them deal and cope with emotional situations.

 

It demonstrates the opposite to me...someone who does NOT have a clear understanding on marriages, on trust and how it's built/rebuilt, nor how a relationship that has been damaged can be recovered/repaired/renewed.

 

I feel exactly that way except I'm not a counselor.

I also know what would work for me in a marriage (and did, beautifully) and what wouldn't. I'm not saying it's wrong when people are able to reconcile, frankly, I'm damn impressed. I just don't see where it REALLY happens all that often. We see multiple stories of it happening here perhaps, but those appear to the be exceptions not the rule.

 

I do believe that once you break a trust it's broken, and I would never allow someone the opportunity to try and fix it because I know, even 20 years later, I still wouldn't really trust them. That's a waste of everyone's life.

 

I also don't believe in allowing anyone to violate my privacy, but I also don't keep much a secret, so if I found something to be private, then it probably is and I probably have a reason. I don't hide my phone or lock my computer unless I have someone like a repairman in my home, and then I only lock my business computer. I don't keep much a secret. Simply because of that I might have a hard time understanding why you'd need to look at stuff and I'd be defensive. I can see it from a LOGICAL standpoint, but personally, no, keep your hands off stuff I said I don't want you touching. It's said a lot that those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing, but that doesn't mean that one gives up an entire sense of self by getting married. If I don't want you reading my journal and you do becuase you think that's your right, it's a violation.

 

Marriages impacted by infidelity are broken. I personally don't think they can be repaired. I think some are lucky enough to rebuild new relationships based on the feelings they have for one another, but I don't think it's the same marriage that was there before, and really, even if it was, why would you want to go back instead of forward.

[AnotherRound]

I think you're making several assumptions that may not be valid...

 

one, you seem to be assuming hat all these reconciled marriages involve one spouse groveling and begging and just generally acting like a dweeb...

 

personally, I don't think it happens exactly that way. If they are "begging" to stay, why do you think that is/ If it's simply that they want to stay in the marriage, that would seem a rather odd behavior for someone who was, up until that point, saying they didn't want the marriage anymore...

 

seems like there are several things at play

(a) they realize they acted like jackass, as feel bad

(b) they realize that it's no loner a 'game" or just words...the fantasy is over and the reality s that they could lose everything they love

© the old " you never know what you have until it's gone"

( d) they really do love their spouse and feel bad for having hurt them and want to begin to make up for it

 

Yes, those are all possible. Or, they could just be scared. Fear is a huge motivation in a lot of human behavior - and this is a well documented one. In that, people are much more willing to stay in an unhealthy situation that they "know" then to chance leaving for an "unknown" situation that has no guarantees of being good.

 

It's a reluctance to leave the known (no matter how bad) for the unknown. And no, I realize that is not always the case, but it is the case in some situations - and a lot of situations that I have personally witnessed or worked with.

 

It's easier to be on the outside (as a counselor) and see these things in someone else's relationship than it is to be on the inside (in the relationship) and see it, obviously. People like guarantees - security - that if they leave, it's going to be okay - but that can't be given. So, sometimes, they stay - because at least they are familiar with the "bad" in their current situation. Much less stressful to them then opening themselves up to who knows what on the other side.

 

This is a well studied phenomena - and is particularly evident in domestic violence cases. Victims often stay because they know what they are dealing with - they are desensitized to it and they have all of their coping skills in place for that particular situation. To leave would mean to have to learn a whole new battery of coping skills - for all new, and unknown, situations - and that is stressful, hard work, exhausting - and yes, frightening. Then, in the case of marriages, you add in all the external material things - houses (where will we live?), money (how will we provide for our basic needs?) - and non material like children (how will they be affected? how will my relationship with them be affected), family (what will they think? Will we still have fondness and contact with those we have grown to love?), community (will we be looked down on? judged?) - etc etc and on and on.

 

So, does one stay with what they know - no unknowns, no surprises, able to be on autopilot instead of constantly in learning and coping mode... OR, does one leave and face all of that? All of those unknowns?

 

Of course, I know that this isn't why all people stay in unhealthy situations - but I can't say that I don't agree with the research and studies done that it is a pretty good guess as to why many stay - and not just in marriages, but in a LOT of varied situations throughout their lives.

[Owl]

The one thing I pulled out of that lengthy post that sparked a response was that I would agree...a MARRIAGE counselor should not tell you what the outcome of the situation should/will be.

 

The first thing our MC did was to ask us what we wanted as an outcome of the situation...help us define what, specifically that outcome would look like...and then help us work through steps towards reaching that goal.

 

Now...an IC dealing with someone with a specific diagnosis SHOULD be able to help define what a HEALTHY outcome for that person would look like...since that particular person quite possibly couldn't even know where to start towards what 'healthy' might mean in their case.

 

That nearly always has to be the first step of counseling...determining what the 'goal' of this counseling is. Without goals, there's no path, and no measurement of progress...which usually just leads to a counselor sucking up the bucks from a patient who doesn't know better. Not a common occurrence, but it happens.

 

So...it all starts with goals, and figuring out how to obtain them.

 

Which is also critical towards reconciling or ending a marriage troubled by infidelity...and/or helping someone personally recover from the end of a relationship.

[AnotherRound]

The one thing I pulled out of that lengthy post that sparked a response was that I would agree...a MARRIAGE counselor should not tell you what the outcome of the situation should/will be.

 

The first thing our MC did was to ask us what we wanted as an outcome of the situation...help us define what, specifically that outcome would look like...and then help us work through steps towards reaching that goal.

 

Now...an IC dealing with someone with a specific diagnosis SHOULD be able to help define what a HEALTHY outcome for that person would look like...since that particular person quite possibly couldn't even know where to start towards what 'healthy' might mean in their case.

 

That nearly always has to be the first step of counseling...determining what the 'goal' of this counseling is. Without goals, there's no path, and no measurement of progress...which usually just leads to a counselor sucking up the bucks from a patient who doesn't know better. Not a common occurrence, but it happens.

 

So...it all starts with goals, and figuring out how to obtain them.

 

Which is also critical towards reconciling or ending a marriage troubled by infidelity...and/or helping someone personally recover from the end of a relationship.

 

Yes, obviously there is treatment planning. Client centered treatment planning. If a client says they want to stay with their abusive spouse (for example) - what is their goal? This goal is then broken down into objectives and then interventions on how to get there. I don't make those goals -the client does. Then, it is up to the client to meet those goals - my part in it is educating on skills, practicing skills, modeling skills, etc. Giving them the tools to reach those goals.

 

That is not a guaranteed outcome. And a dx does not tell a counselor what is healthy for that particular client. Comorbidity is extremely prevalent and with all the available dx, the cocktails of dx are damn near infinite. So, each individual - plus their diagnosis/es, plus their own personal life circumstances, plus their personality, plus their willingness, plus their external environment, plus their FOO stuff - as you can see, it gets very individualized very quickly - and complicated, and messy.

 

There is no way, coming into a new case, that I can say, "Yes, you WILL reconcile with your spouse" - nor can I, or the client, at that point determine what is the "best" and healthiest option for him or her - Intake of a client is endless - it carries on throughout the case as they are always revealing new things that can change the course of treatment - and the desired outcome of treatment.

 

It's not as simple as, "the client wants x, I will make x happen for them"... oh, if only it was, lol!!!!!!

 

I know it doesn't make sense to most people - if it did, people wouldn't "need" counselors as they'd have all of these skills already and just do it themselves, ya know? That's the difference - I know how to be a blank slate AND I know the skills. I am simply a resource for my client to use to get where they want to go - wherever that is. I'm not an advice giver, I'm not there to tell them what is good for them (I help them realize if they are being self destructive, but it's up to them to change their course) - I am simply there to give them the tools, period.

 

I know what many people think counseling is - and what they "expect" when they go to counseling. And back in the day (and Dr. Phil even today) that is exactly what people were doing when providing counseling. The field has come a long way considering it's a very new field (with Freud credited for really sparking it) and best practices are well established - and those are not giving advice or pushing people where you want them to go.

[Owl]

I'm curious about this, and didn't want to TJ or participate where it would possibly trigger BSs - so, I'm curious for those others who may have been BSs too - did you think that punishing your BS was a healthy way to carry on? Such as - attempting to control them and their actions, invading their privacy in an attempt to verify where they were and such, attempting to limit their friendships with others? Is it just me, or does this seem terribly unhealthy to anyone else too? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I sometimes see a reconciliation happening where the BS expects "groveling" from the WS and seems to think that this is appropriate and healthy. I do NOT agree with this at all - as begging in any relationship seems unhealthy - and kind of pointless to me? As does feeling some kind of security or validation from someone else groveling to me bc they made a mistake?

 

Would you continue on in a relationship like this? As the "other", did you see this happen with your MM/MW? How did you feel about it? Did it change your feelings towards the MM/MW or the BW/BH if it happened?

 

As an aside, this whole topic makes me feel ... yucky, for lack of better word. It feels like an authority figure position exacting punishment like one would to a child - not two adults in a relationship and I just don't see how that balance is ever restored - if it is???? Thoughts?

 

So...let me respond to this with examples of my own marital and personal recovery from my wife's EA.

 

First few days...yep, I fit your description well. I cried, begged, pleaded. Tried 'winning her back' with shows of affection, flowers, etc...

 

That lasted less than a week.

 

That last day before she was supposed to leave to live with OM, I showed up at her motel room, knocked on her door at 7am, and sat down and talked with her rationally for the first time since d-day four days prior.

 

I spelled things out for her very, very clearly. If she left...there was no coming back. I would be willing to work through everything up to that point, but beyond that, we would be DONE. I would not be part of her life going forward...not as a friend, ex-husband, whatever. She gets on that plane, there would be no reconciliation or continued contact between us beyond divorcing each other.

 

In other words...I manned up and stood my ground.

 

Then OM called her...heard the quavering in her voice as she was thinking about all of this...got angry, and told her not to come. She came home that day, but she was angry as all hell at me for destroying her chances to be with him. I was to blame for that. OK.

 

SO...next two weeks were her crying over the loss of him, and waffling on her choice to stay. I slept in the basement. Got her started seeing an IC, as I did as well. I let her grieve, and didn't let her anger get the best of me.

 

Then we discussed seperation. She thought she wanted to seperate, but live in our area instead. She slipped up and let me realize that she was back in contact with OM...and that she was about to sign a year long lease for a place to live for our "trial seperation".

 

The next day, I went and talked with a lawyer. Got the info I needed, and when I came home that night, I laid it all out for her. I was not willing to do a year long trial seperation. If she wanted to have time to think about things for herself for that long...we were going to divorce. I got all the info I needed for divorce in our state, and shared it with her that night.

 

I made it clear...we were either going to work on our marriage, or we were going to end it. I would accept no middle grounds.

 

That night, she made her choice...and hasn't waffled on that choice in the nine years since then.

 

Now...after that night, I started to realize what I had signed up for. Trust? Non-existant at that point. She'd lied to me too many times about contact with OM. I loved her...but I didn't much like the person she was becoming as a result of her affair. There were things we both needed to change if we were going to stay together.

 

That's where the MC came in. He helped us define what we wanted, what we needed to change, and how to do it.

 

On the subject of 'snooping'...it bothered my wife right up until the day she confronted me about it in front of the MC. He spent a couple of minutes talking to her, and it really opened her eyes. She finally "got it"...and maybe this might help some of y'all get it too.

 

It wasn't snooping hoping that I would find anything. On the contrary, it was snooping in the fear that I would. But the more that I snooped and didn't...the more I saw that her behavior now matched her words, where it didn't before...the more it rebuilt my trust in her. She realized that it wasn't because I was hoping to catch her doing something wrong...it was because in order to trust her again, I had to see her doing the things that were right.

 

Without seeing that...how could I have known she WAS doing the right things? Without that...how could I have rebuilt my faith and trust in her again?

 

So there ya go...Owl's recover part 1.

 

Started out as that whiny, needy, unattractive BS that everyone seems to stereotype as what a BS is. But the reality is...a BS who stays in that phase never recovers/reconciles their marriage. The ones that do recover are the ones who learn their own strength, are willing to risk everything to gain everything...and set limits in what they will and will not accept in their lives from that point on.

 

Make of it what you will.

[Owl]

I know it doesn't make sense to most people - if it did, people wouldn't "need" counselors as they'd have all of these skills already and just do it themselves, ya know? That's the difference - I know how to be a blank slate AND I know the skills. I am simply a resource for my client to use to get where they want to go - wherever that is. I'm not an advice giver, I'm not there to tell them what is good for them (I help them realize if they are being self destructive, but it's up to them to change their course) - I am simply there to give them the tools, period.

 

I know what many people think counseling is - and what they "expect" when they go to counseling. And back in the day (and Dr. Phil even today) that is exactly what people were doing when providing counseling. The field has come a long way considering it's a very new field (with Freud credited for really sparking it) and best practices are well established - and those are not giving advice or pushing people where you want them to go.

 

So you're just a textbook on legs? You provide the tools, but no insight, no motivation, no guidance?

 

You're right...that sure doesn't sound like counseling to me.

 

 

Editted to add...that sounds harsher than I intended. I don't mean to insult, but don't understand how else to get my point across with other words here. Please don't take this as a direct attack...just pointing out how I don't "get it".

[AnotherRound]

So...let me respond to this with examples of my own marital and personal recovery from my wife's EA.

 

First few days...yep, I fit your description well. I cried, begged, pleaded. Tried 'winning her back' with shows of affection, flowers, etc...

 

That lasted less than a week.

 

That last day before she was supposed to leave to live with OM, I showed up at her motel room, knocked on her door at 7am, and sat down and talked with her rationally for the first time since d-day four days prior.

 

I spelled things out for her very, very clearly. If she left...there was no coming back. I would be willing to work through everything up to that point, but beyond that, we would be DONE. I would not be part of her life going forward...not as a friend, ex-husband, whatever. She gets on that plane, there would be no reconciliation or continued contact between us beyond divorcing each other.

 

In other words...I manned up and stood my ground.

 

Then OM called her...heard the quavering in her voice as she was thinking about all of this...got angry, and told her not to come. She came home that day, but she was angry as all hell at me for destroying her chances to be with him. I was to blame for that. OK.

 

SO...next two weeks were her crying over the loss of him, and waffling on her choice to stay. I slept in the basement. Got her started seeing an IC, as I did as well. I let her grieve, and didn't let her anger get the best of me.

 

Then we discussed seperation. She thought she wanted to seperate, but live in our area instead. She slipped up and let me realize that she was back in contact with OM...and that she was about to sign a year long lease for a place to live for our "trial seperation".

 

The next day, I went and talked with a lawyer. Got the info I needed, and when I came home that night, I laid it all out for her. I was not willing to do a year long trial seperation. If she wanted to have time to think about things for herself for that long...we were going to divorce. I got all the info I needed for divorce in our state, and shared it with her that night.

 

I made it clear...we were either going to work on our marriage, or we were going to end it. I would accept no middle grounds.

 

That night, she made her choice...and hasn't waffled on that choice in the nine years since then.

 

Now...after that night, I started to realize what I had signed up for. Trust? Non-existant at that point. She'd lied to me too many times about contact with OM. I loved her...but I didn't much like the person she was becoming as a result of her affair. There were things we both needed to change if we were going to stay together.

 

That's where the MC came in. He helped us define what we wanted, what we needed to change, and how to do it.

 

On the subject of 'snooping'...it bothered my wife right up until the day she confronted me about it in front of the MC. He spent a couple of minutes talking to her, and it really opened her eyes. She finally "got it"...and maybe this might help some of y'all get it too.

 

It wasn't snooping hoping that I would find anything. On the contrary, it was snooping in the fear that I would. But the more that I snooped and didn't...the more I saw that her behavior now matched her words, where it didn't before...the more it rebuilt my trust in her. She realized that it wasn't because I was hoping to catch her doing something wrong...it was because in order to trust her again, I had to see her doing the things that were right.

 

Without seeing that...how could I have known she WAS doing the right things? Without that...how could I have rebuilt my faith and trust in her again?

 

So there ya go...Owl's recover part 1.

 

Started out as that whiny, needy, unattractive BS that everyone seems to stereotype as what a BS is. But the reality is...a BS who stays in that phase never recovers/reconciles their marriage. The ones that do recover are the ones who learn their own strength, are willing to risk everything to gain everything...and set limits in what they will and will not accept in their lives from that point on.

 

Make of it what you will.

 

Exactly. From what you said, you set your boundaries - you weren't willing to stay in an unhealthy relationship - and that was your goal. And, you were firm in that if it remained unhealthy, you would not participate. Your W, despite her initial waffling (and you handling it beautifully) also decided that she wanted the relationship and was willing to work towards that. There were no guarantees - and you both knew that - yet you agreed, together, to a goal.

 

That is a healthy situation.

 

I was more talking about a spouse that isn't really in agreement but stays out of fear or for other reasons - and how that isn't healthy.

 

Also, you didn't lord the affair over your wife - and I'm sure, still don't. That is a behavior I see from SOME BS for extended periods of time - not just for a few days after the A (or whatever). That is what I'm talking about.

 

And I don't think it's the "norm" necessarily, just something I see more than a few cases of - that imbalance.

 

I'm glad that your situation worked for you - and it wouldn't have if you AND your wife were not in agreement to a common goal and very willing to work towards that together. And, if it hadn't - you would have walked. And had I been your counselor, and your wife continued to be unhealthy towards you - and you walked - I wouldn't consider that a "failure" but a success for you and your choosing of living a healthy life - even if that meant being divorced.

[AnotherRound]

So you're just a textbook on legs? You provide the tools, but no insight, no motivation, no guidance?

 

You're right...that sure doesn't sound like counseling to me.

 

 

Editted to add...that sounds harsher than I intended. I don't mean to insult, but don't understand how else to get my point across with other words here. Please don't take this as a direct attack...just pointing out how I don't "get it".

 

Those are part of the tools - motivation, insight, guidance... lol. And no worries - I know most people don't get it if they don't do it. I get asked almost daily by people I know, "How the hell do you do your job?"... because they can't fathom it. It's not a job for the faint of heart, that's for sure - and it's a job that mentally and emotionally exhausts you. It's learning when to push and when not to push - but NEVER pushing for something that would satisfy you - only for what is good for the client. It's a tightrope, and trust me - I earn every dollar that I get paid.

 

It is hard to describe because people, in general, have opinions and biases and live those every day of their lives. I have all of those things - I just am able to set them completely aside when I'm counseling. When I come here, as you can see, they come out - because I allow them to - bc it isn't really a "natural state" to be so unbiased and unopinionated. So, by the end of the day - I'm done walking that tight rope and ready to talk about what I feel and think - lol.

 

I actually have a colleague who wrote a book about counseling and the process and what it entails and how we do it. If you're interested (and to see that I'm really not just making this stuff up), you could google search. I'm sure he isn't the only one to write about this subject and I don't want to give his name as TMI - but the literature is there for anyone interested in learning how counseling is supposed to work.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm curious about this, and didn't want to TJ or participate where it would possibly trigger BSs - so, I'm curious for those others who may have been BSs too - did you think that punishing your BS was a healthy way to carry on? Such as - attempting to control them and their actions, invading their privacy in an attempt to verify where they were and such, attempting to limit their friendships with others? Is it just me, or does this seem terribly unhealthy to anyone else too? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I sometimes see a reconciliation happening where the BS expects "groveling" from the WS and seems to think that this is appropriate and healthy. I do NOT agree with this at all - as begging in any relationship seems unhealthy - and kind of pointless to me? As does feeling some kind of security or validation from someone else groveling to me bc they made a mistake?

 

Would you continue on in a relationship like this? As the "other", did you see this happen with your MM/MW? How did you feel about it? Did it change your feelings towards the MM/MW or the BW/BH if it happened?

 

As an aside, this whole topic makes me feel ... yucky, for lack of better word. It feels like an authority figure position exacting punishment like one would to a child - not two adults in a relationship and I just don't see how that balance is ever restored - if it is???? Thoughts?

 

I stayed away from this Q, as I knew it would smart

 

I was cheated on, a LOT. No sex I'm aware of, but it was more a constant stream of actions to prove to me I was inferior and of less interest than many, many other women.

 

I never wanted to punish, I wanted a healthy, sold relationship whereby I felt valued. If he had been truly sorry, that's what would have happened. I didn't want any 'penance'.

 

I didn't try to control his behaviour, but I did try to reason with him and encourage him to modify his behaviour. I didn't know back then he had BPD else I wouldn't have wasted my breath (or my tears). I checked up on him sometimes. I hated it, felt compelled to, didn't know how to stop. Why? Because I could subconsciously read his behaviour but didn't see what was obvious, he was never going to stop.

 

I didn't see any of this at all in MM's relationship with his wife. They weren't invested in their marriage, they valued other things, it was different entirely.

 

I now do not know that I would ever be able to consider continuing in any relationship that had experienced infidelity. I value my current relationship more than any I have had, so much so I find it startling. However, I suspect that if anything happened I would have the desire to work things out, but I don't think it could happen. I love things about my fiancé that mean I might not feel the same about him were he to stray. He's compulsively honest, very loyal, takes his promises seriously, is disgusted with the way his father treated his mother (cheated ) and invests in our relationship and his relationships with important people including my son.

 

I was happy to enter a post-A relationship with someone who had been married, but not sure I could continue in a marriage if I'd been cheated on.

[Owl]

Those are part of the tools - motivation, insight, guidance... lol. And no worries - I know most people don't get it if they don't do it. I get asked almost daily by people I know, "How the hell do you do your job?"... because they can't fathom it. It's not a job for the faint of heart, that's for sure - and it's a job that mentally and emotionally exhausts you. It's learning when to push and when not to push - but NEVER pushing for something that would satisfy you - only for what is good for the client. It's a tightrope, and trust me - I earn every dollar that I get paid.

 

It is hard to describe because people, in general, have opinions and biases and live those every day of their lives. I have all of those things - I just am able to set them completely aside when I'm counseling. When I come here, as you can see, they come out - because I allow them to - bc it isn't really a "natural state" to be so unbiased and unopinionated. So, by the end of the day - I'm done walking that tight rope and ready to talk about what I feel and think - lol.

 

I actually have a colleague who wrote a book about counseling and the process and what it entails and how we do it. If you're interested (and to see that I'm really not just making this stuff up), you could google search. I'm sure he isn't the only one to write about this subject and I don't want to give his name as TMI - but the literature is there for anyone interested in learning how counseling is supposed to work.

 

To a degree, I can understand this.

 

I'm ex-Army. I've dealt with many crisis situations in my career, and in my life. Seen things, dealt with things, worked through things that most folks don't have to envision.

 

You survive these things by learning to 'disconnect' while you're going through them...by learning to do the right thing without worrying about inconsequentials or letting yourself be concerned with feeling too much empathy or sympathy for those around you...at the time.

 

By the same token...you can't bottle those things up. You have to deal with them...and you have to learn to let yourself be 'normal' the rest of the time. Or you still won't have survived the situation, it'll just have taken that much longer for it to claim you.

 

I can see how counseling could require a parallel mental skill set.

[Owl]

 

I was more talking about a spouse that isn't really in agreement but stays out of fear or for other reasons - and how that isn't healthy.

 

Also, you didn't lord the affair over your wife - and I'm sure, still don't. That is a behavior I see from SOME BS for extended periods of time - not just for a few days after the A (or whatever). That is what I'm talking about.

 

And I don't think it's the "norm" necessarily, just something I see more than a few cases of - that imbalance.

 

 

If you look on the infidelity forum, there's a thread about 'power' in a relationship dealing with infidelity...and who has the power.

 

During an affair, the WS and AP "hold the power" by keeping the BS uninformed of the affair and what's going on.

 

The BS does not have the power to make informed decisions in the situation due to their lack of knowledge...and often a BS with only partial knowledge of what's going on does indeed feel very helpless and powerless while in that state.

 

Once the full knowledge is available to everyone...usually there's a power shift. In a healthy relationship, there has to be one.

 

The BS now regains at least partial control of the outcome of the situation, and of their own outcome. They have the ability now to make informed decisions.

 

SOMETIMES, even when the affair ends...some people don't like to give up that power, especially if they feel that they've been denied it by the other person for a long time. Those people aren't willing (due to their own insecurity, albeit often created by the very affair situation we're talking about) to let the power dynamic to balance out appropriately when it needs to.

 

That kind of situation is indeed unhealthy...and in that situation, the partner being mistreated absolutely needs to take action to either restore the balance or end the relationhip.

 

But I don't think it's all that common that this happens...in the situations where a BS feels that slighted/devestated...the normal ending is usually a swift divorce.

 

It's only the rare case where you have an unhealthy person that wants to maintain an unhealthy relationship. Given that counselors rarely get to work with healthy folks...I can see where you'd like be exposed to more people like this than the rest of us would be. Your sample pool is already skewed in that direction.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Owl

[AnotherRound]

if they are too scared to leave when they actually have the opportunity to do so, i can only guess that they probably never would have anyway, no matter what they said to the contrary...

 

I agree - and many WSs state that they are NOT going to leave. Some future fake - but some don't. I was lucky in that case in that I didn't have someone telling me that they would do things they had no intention of doing. I see stories of APs who were lied to in this way, and it sounds excruciating - especially if the WS decides to try to reconcile and/or throws the Other under the bus.

 

I think that could still be fear induced (seems extremely likely to me), but the ones that say they aren't going to leave and have a very valid reason for not leaving are people in a very tough spot I think. I don't envy them, or wish I was in their place, that's for sure. I can't imagine having to choose whether or not to leave something I don't want if that meant that I would also lose contact with my children, or even just have to give up time with them (no children, but I can imagine how that would feel).