Matilda Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by binturong As other posters have said, just because you're not getting what you need from your wife, it doesn't make it okay to go outside your marriage to look for it. [ /QUOTE] I think he realizes this, and is trying to correct it. And his wife needs to take steps to correct it as well. Link to post Share on other sites
tiki Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ditto. And very well put binturong! Link to post Share on other sites
Tracy Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I agree with you, Binturong. But, I also know that even though I realize what's wrong in my marriage....and I know what I need to do......once my H and I get together, emotions take over and I can't make myself do it!!! Maybe Moose will decide the letter thing is a bad idea also.....but at least he's aware now that it's about a lack of communication between him and his wife, and he's looking for solutions. When he first posted about meeting his PP, that wasn't even an issue. Link to post Share on other sites
binturong Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Matilda, I know he knows it, but he's still bringing another woman into his marriage and trying to justify it. I agree that his wife needs to put forth effort too, but he can't just immediately say "If I do this, she'll just ignore me anyway, so I won't bother and that's why I talk to someone else." By doing that, he's not giving her much of a chance. He expects her to revert back to her old ways, so she might just be living up to his expectations of her. Link to post Share on other sites
Matilda Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by binturong Matilda, I know he knows it, but he's still bringing another woman into his marriage and trying to justify it. I agree that his wife needs to put forth effort too, but he can't just immediately say "If I do this, she'll just ignore me anyway, so I won't bother and that's why I talk to someone else." By doing that, he's not giving her much of a chance. He expects her to revert back to her old ways, so she might just be living up to his expectations of her. I agree with you about this. This is exactly why they need to resolve this issue. Maybe the letter idea isn't the best way, but at least it is a way to get these issues out in the open. What other ideas do you have? He has already said that his past attempts to talk to her about his have not led to any lasting change. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 The letter idea is stupid. He WILL BE comparing his wife to Elena. I could see if he wants to send his wife the emails, then see how she responds, then they can go over her responses together. The second part of your sentence cancels out the first part of your sentence. But the second part of your sentence is EXACTLEY what I'm doing: I'm going to send her every letter, from my first one to my last one every day. I'm not going to alter them at all and Carole is going to respond, as Elena. THEN, on the weekend, probably Saturdays, we are going to compare them to the way Elena actually responded and see how close they come to eachother. This gives Carole a way to get to know Elena, and for Carole and I to back up a bit and give her a chance, and me a chance to get to know each other more. So how can you call it a bad idea when it's one you thought of as well? You all have to understand something, the ones who are so negative towards this idea, it's not like Elena and I have been telling each other that we love each other and want to be with each other. We've just been two good friends talking about our thoughts and feelings. And listening to each other and providing feedback. We do it every day here on the forum. Am I cheating with all of you? Link to post Share on other sites
binturong Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 What's worked in my relationship is that you have one talk about something that's bothering you. Like when I get tired, I get REALLY cranky...I mean REALLY. And it makes my fiance feel like crap, because he's just being nice and sweet to me and I'm not interested and push him away. So we had a discussion. Now when I start acting like that and when I start being mean to him, he'll bring it to my attention. He'll just say "You're doing it again" and that's enough to make me at least look at my actions right then and there. I'm still cranky, but him telling me that RIGHT THEN gives me a chance to control myself. And the same thing with him...he doesn't like the heat and it's been really hot here lately. He gets snappy and mean when he's hot and I brought that to his attention. I told him he was acting like me when I'm tired. He shut up for about a half hour, calmed himself down, and was capable of being nice to me again. I still knew he was agitated, but the fact that he was making the effort was more than enough for me. It's something that has to be done all the time. When you're tired, uncomfortable, emotional, you don't always think rationally. Yes, it's work, but isn't it worth it? Moose talks about Carol reverting back to the "same ole, same ole" actions. Maybe he needs to constantly reinforce what it is he needs from her instead of expecting her to change overnight. Link to post Share on other sites
binturong Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 No, Moose...what you want to do is compare your wife's responses to Elena's responses. That's not what I was suggesting you do. I'm saying that you and your wife can go over HER responses together, CAROL's responses. With absolutely no regard to how Elena originally responded. What does Elena have to do with Carol? What's the point in comparing the two, unless it's to say that you want Carol to be more like Elena (which, by the way, I would find very offensive)? It sounds like you need more from Carol, and that's all well and good, but you can't and shouldn't ask to her model herself after someone you've been intimate with. And yes, you have been intimate with Elena. Link to post Share on other sites
VivianLee Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Moose, Your advantage over us that despite your problems with your wife, you do know her best (even if you are having communications problems)...so this may need to be a decision you base entirely on what you think and not what we think. I do think the advice given could be considered. I have a few questions but this is the main one concerning this. You said you wouldn't change anything in the e-mails, although your wife didn't freak out when you brought this up, is there anything in those e-mails that she may not like? Another thing, we ladies can be very sneaky, she could be setting you up so she can find out what exactly was going on, despite the fact she talks to her Mom, it's not the same if she was telling her Mom negative things about you than is to tell them to another man. She may see those e-mails and get really hurt and angry. Now if this woman is one of those ladies they show in stock footage, wrinkled, missing teeth and heavy (disclaimer: I'm not saying all Russian women look this way), then I doubt you'd be attracted and that may be why your wife laughed, so other than you're needing to tell these things to your wife, I believe your penpal is safe. If she's attractive on top of being in love plus having an emotional bond, this is so NOT what y'all need. Think about, if you were reading these e-mails of your wife's correspondence with another man, how would you react? If you're not feeling it, then just forego the e-mails and y'all sit down and write what you need to say if that's the approach you want. Other questions.... How did you find this woman? How long have y'all written each other? How long have you been sober? How would you feel if your wife was the one doing this? Have y'all gotten counseling for yourselves and the kids for living in the alcoholism? Moose, I'm sorry I keep bringing up the past. I know you've changed and are remorseful, my husband is the child of parent's that were/are alcoholics, I know how it effects people even after the alcohol is gone out of the picture!! Take care! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 binturong, I see what you're saying now. Ok, I get it. I won't share how Elena responded to me with her. But you know I won't be able to ignore the differences in the two. Do you think I can suggest to Carole how to respond? I mean, not respond the way Elena would, but perhaps how I would like her to respond to them? See, that's the whole issue I think. I think that Carole truly does not know how to act towards my thoughts and feelings. But so you know, I'm agreeing with you. Except the getting intimate part. You can ask anyone on here, I'm still learning the ways of the sober mind. Be patient with me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Think about, if you were reading these e-mails of your wife's correspondence with another man, how would you react? If you're not feeling it, then just forego the e-mails and y'all sit down and write what you need to say if that's the approach you want. In the past I probably would've gotten pretty pissed off and we'd argue about it. Now, I would take it as a sign that I'm not providing my wife with something she needs and would work on it. How did you find this woman? She's a student and their class sent me an invitation to be a pen pal to help her with her English. How long have y'all written each other? About three years. How long have you been sober? A little over 2 years. How would you feel if your wife was the one doing this? Like I need to find out what I'm doing wrong that she has to go to someone else. Have y'all gotten counseling for yourselves and the kids for living in the alcoholism? Yep, I still go once and a while. But right after I got out of the hospital we all went consistantly for about a year. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I think you SHOULD share. Be honest. With yourself, and your wife. "Russian" "Penpal" "Female" certainly sends off alarm bells in MY head. I certainly think the relationship isn't appropriate, simply because I think this PP of yours senses the weakness in your relationship and is pushing for something more. Why else would she want your wife to stay away? In her mind, your marriage sucks and you're reaching out to her. She is living in the fantasy that you meet, you fall in love, leave your wife and she gets to stay in the U.S. with you. Smarten up Moose!! For sh*t's sake!! Wether or not you MEANT for the situation to develop, it did-because you used her as a source to outpour all of your resentment towards your wife-why WOULD she want to spend time with her? She probably hasn't seen her painted in a very positive light. Start talking about how wonderful your wife is, and see how fast her desire to visit cools. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 How would you feel if your wife was the one doing this? Like I need to find out what I'm doing wrong that she has to go to someone else Now THAT is pure and utter bullsh*t Moose. You'd be outraged that she dared to go outside the relationship for any kind of solace. THEN maybe after the fallout you'd reflect on everything you'd done wrong. That is a statement of a guilty person.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Are you calling me a liar??? I'm serious. Sure, my first emotion would be that of a mad man and hurt, but I honestly would look at it as my fault for not giving her what she needed. Don't try to tell me that the way I would respond is pure bull or not. You aren't a magical mind reader or a God Mr. Spock. You do not have the ability to know what another person is like or how they would react to something. You've got to realize this in hurry, it affects the way you try to give advice. Sometimes I agree with the way you read people, but most of the time I think you're too judgemental towards everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
Matilda Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I don't believe that was BS at all. I think both reactions are appropriate. Yes, be pissed, but then you need to take a look at the relationship, and figure out what's missing. You, Spock, of all people should understand this. This is what needs to be done in adulterous marriages. Hopefully, before the adultery occurs, but if not, then afterwards if the couple is attempting to stay married. Link to post Share on other sites
binturong Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I see what you're saying now. Ok, I get it. I won't share how Elena responded to me with her. But you know I won't be able to ignore the differences in the two. Do you think I can suggest to Carole how to respond? I mean, not respond the way Elena would, but perhaps how I would like her to respond to them? See, that's the whole issue I think. I think that Carole truly does not know how to act towards my thoughts and feelings. Yes, by all means tell her what you need from her! How else is she supposed to know what you need and want out of your relationship? One question that keeps popping up in my relationship is "What do you need me to do?" It works wonders. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Are you calling me a liar??? I'm serious. Sure, my first emotion would be that of a mad man and hurt, but I honestly would look at it as my fault for not giving her what she needed. Don't try to tell me that the way I would respond is pure bull or not. You aren't a magical mind reader or a God Mr. Spock. You do not have the ability to know what another person is like or how they would react to something. You've got to realize this in hurry, it affects the way you try to give advice I don't think you're a liar. I think you're deluding yourself as to what your reaction would be, because you don't have to live with that reality as of yet-whatever your wife has wanted is not the same as you finding out something had been going on. I think that you can sit in front of your computer and type out a PC response quite calmly, but the reality of human volatility is quite different. PLEASE NOTE IN MY RESPONSE that I said AFTER the fallout you might reflect on what you'd done wrong in the relationship. But you would be PISSED first. So in the first two sentences of your response you confirmed that I was correct about your true reaction. Realize THAT in a hurry, Moose, and quit trying to make it out like I think I'm omniscient. Link to post Share on other sites
ShareHer Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I think Moose is being quite honest with himself. Maybe he's just not conveying it well here in written text. I understand what he's going through. I've been married to a woman that didn't feel my passion and when someone else shows you a little attention, it feels damned good. I think Moose needed that attention from the pen pal. It probably did wonders for his self esteem. Living with a woman that doesn't put you on the same pedestal you put her on has a tendacy of making you feel like less of a man. And maybe Moose did share a little too much with this woman. Oh well, too bad. He can't take it back so move on. Let's get away from busting on him (like I've been known to do) and help him figure out the correct path to take. I think he's well aware of what he's feeling inside. At this point he just has to make the right decisions and not jeopardize his marriage. I think he'll do the right thing. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 OK, Who was that and what happened to my arch enemy Shareher??????? Just joking Shareher......thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Tracy Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Can't we all just get along Take it easy on Spockster...he came in late and was expressing his opinion. Which, BTW, Moose asked for. You're right though.....Moose knows what's goin on. At least more so than when he first asked the question. I'm not sure he's being COMPLETELY honest with himself about everything. I agree with Spock about his reaction if his wife were doing the same thing. But, no more degressing. MOOSE, man, tell us, after much thought and discussion. What do you think you will do? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I think Moose IS doing the right thing. The simple fact he intends to include his wife on the visit shows that. I think his wife should see the letters, and her responses. It may not even bother her. But, if it DOES, then perhaps the entire visit should be postponed. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 MOOSE, man, tell us, after much thought and discussion. What do you think you will do? Well, I've already told Carole that I wanted her to read my emails. Not only will it let her know that there wasn't any talk at all that would indicate I want to leave her, or that I'm looking for something else. It would also give her an idea about what my thoughts and feelings have been like for the last few years. I know that I've already told her, but like I said, she usually kept her blinders on when I try to talk to her about them. I'm not going to have her respond in email form, rather, I'll just be with her when she reads them and get her reaction. I'm going to have to refrain from comparing Carole's response to what Elena said in her return emails, and hopefully that won't be too hard. I'm hoping that this will give us the opportunity to discuss what it is that I need from my wife. As far as staying pen pals and Elena coming to the states I want my wife present if she does indeed come to visit. If Carole and I can break this barrier and start sharing each others thoughts and feelings, I will stop corresponding with Elena completley. It would be hard to break the friendship up, but I do happen to believe that my wife is more important. Link to post Share on other sites
Tracy Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Good. Sounds like you have your ducks in a row. I hope it works and I think it's a good idea that Carol isn't going to respond to the emails. I'm hoping that this will give us the opportunity to discuss what it is that I need from my wife. Can I make a suggestion? Good.... As you guys are going through this, try to keep an open mind. And, instead of just analyzing what you need from her, try to focus on what you can give her that will make her WANT to meet all of your needs. Try it even if she doesn't deserve it. I am trying to do this with my H. Not very good at it, but I'm trying. Results are very good when I work on myself instead of sulking about what he doesn't do. Not that you do that..... And, you may already do this. Just try to be really conscious of it while you have this great opportunity to make things different. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moose Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Thanks Trace, I'll do my best!!! Link to post Share on other sites
ShareHer Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by Moose OK, Who was that and what happened to my arch enemy Shareher??????? Just joking Shareher......thanks. Sorry about that. My medication wore off. I promise, it won't happen again! Link to post Share on other sites
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