Here is another question...

[Saba]

Did he, or is that what he told you? Were you able you speak with her? Confirm this? Or are you taking his oh so reliable word for it?

 

Snarky! You know your MM tells lies but you still believe what he tells you.

[LFH]

Snarky! You know your MM tells lies but you still believe what he tells you.

I'm curious, why is it snarky when I ask it once, but every time I say anything about my relationship someone asks me that?

I was just honestly asking? In fact, I took a sentence that was posted to me 11 times in the last 30 days and copied and pasted it into my question. No one jumped on those posters and said they were being snarky to me. So why is it snarky for me to ask it? It's a legitimate question. We've already determined these men lie.

[whichwayisup]

Did he, or is that what he told you? Were you able you speak with her? Confirm this? Or are you taking his oh so reliable word for it?

 

When someone is 'done' with another person, it means they are done. it's like anybody else,they become an EX, even if it was an AP.

 

And these two are on healing path, working together to fix their marriage and he has earned trust with her, then why wouldn't she believe his word?

 

This implies that a WS is continually going to lie about everything and never be trusted. one has to start somewhere, if the guy is sincere with his wife, why shouldn't she believe him?

[LFH]

When someone is 'done' with another person, it means they are done. it's like anybody else,they become an EX, even if it was an AP.

 

And these two are on healing path, working together to fix their marriage and he has earned trust with her, then why wouldn't she believe his word?

 

This implies that a WS is continually going to lie about everything and never be trusted. one has to start somewhere, if the guy is sincere with his wife, why shouldn't she believe him?

 

Some continue to lie and every word out of their mouth is still untrue.

I guess I just don't understand. I'm constantly being told that I am wrong for not confirming every word that comes out of his mouth. I believe my boyfriend because I know him and love him and he honestly doesn't lie to me. He doesn't HAVE to, so why would he lie? What's he going to tell me, that they don't have sex? Seriously? Why would he tell me that now after being honest about it so long?

Maybe he's lying when he tells me he does. That'd be an interesting twist!

I am asked every single time I post something if I know that because i've confirmed it, EVERY SINGLE TIME. I don't believe I've ever asked that of anyone before.

I assume that she probably believes him because she knows and loves him and has made a choice similiar to mine, to believe him, the difference is she has proof that he has lied to her... and honestly, many of these married men are still lying. I can't even tell you how many stories I know going on right now where they're on multiple ddays and he's just so much better at being underground. So I was just wondering, why does she accept that he's now telling the truth about what he told his ap?

And for what it's worth, since my boyfriend is sincere with me, why wouldn't I believe him?

 

Does this make sense to anyone else or am I actually living on some alternate universe from everyone else?

Edited March 16, 2013 by LFH

[whichwayisup]

Sorry L, I didn't mean to imply anything..Was just assuming that when a couple is on the healing path and working together, the lies would be over.. ask most WS's on here, once they've decided to recommit to their spouses and to the marriage, lying really would be pointless. Maybe Anne or another exWS could answer this, since she actually is someone who has worked really hard with her husband, and worked on herself.

[AnotherRound]

Some continue to lie and every word out of their mouth is still untrue.

I guess I just don't understand. I'm constantly being told that I am wrong for not confirming every word that comes out of his mouth. I believe my boyfriend because I know him and love him and he honestly doesn't lie to me. He doesn't HAVE to, so why would he lie? What's he going to tell me, that they don't have sex? Seriously? Why would he tell me that now after being honest about it so long?

Maybe he's lying when he tells me he does. That'd be an interesting twist!

I am asked every single time I post something if I know that because i've confirmed it, EVERY SINGLE TIME. I don't believe I've ever asked that of anyone before.

I assume that she probably believes him because she knows and loves him and has made a choice similiar to mine, to believe him, the difference is she has proof that he has lied to her... and honestly, many of these married men are still lying. I can't even tell you how many stories I know going on right now where they're on multiple ddays and he's just so much better at being underground. So I was just wondering, why does she accept that he's now telling the truth about what he told his ap?

And for what it's worth, since my boyfriend is sincere with me, why wouldn't I believe him?

 

Does this make sense to anyone else or am I actually living on some alternate universe from everyone else?

 

I get it. I see it too - that if it applies to the AP, the WS MUST be lying - but if it applies to the BS - the WS MUST be telling the truth. I have no understanding of why anyone thinks like that - only thing I can come up with is fear???? Fear of accepting that it is just as likely that they are being lied to as it is that the AP was lied to. ???? That maybe if they can convince themselves that "now" the WS is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, they can feel better (more secure?) in moving forward with them?

 

It's not an alternate universe, although I know that feeling too, lol. I think it honestly is just a difference in some people's willingness to accept the flip side of every coin is always there, whether they can see it or not - they don't have to acknowledge it - but yep, still there.

 

I don't believe that WS's lie to their APs any more than they do to their wives - I think it can be spread around equally. And, in my experience, my exMM was honest with his now exW and honest with me more than not (everyone is somewhat dishonest at times) - so there was absolutely no reason to conclude that he is a liar every time he opens his mouth - for either myself or the exW.

 

To me it's all about "Might makes Right" sometimes for some people. That, they are convinced that if "most" people agree with them, then they must be right, right? Problem is - this isn't a topic that can be discussed really openly due to the social stigma it carries - so they hear a LOT of the BSs side and hardly any of the OWs side - and the WSs are usually fairly silent themselves. So, the feedback is skewed already. It's a bit like racism today in the US. Most people that are racist don't talk about it bc it's looked down upon by society in general (maybe, depends on how many closet racists there are, which therein lies the problem of never really being able to discern that without really open and honest discussion and disclosure). That by no means indicates that the US is any less racist today than it was 100 years ago. It appears to be bc it's only acceptable (mostly) to say that you aren't racist - so that's mostly what we hear, not the opposite. It's not a logical thing to base a conclusion on when you are getting only certain feedback due to societal constraints bc of fear of backlash from those that aren't in agreement (racists unwilling to admit for fear of being looked down on by others maybe).

 

It's an interesting thing - but conclusions can't be drawn accurately with one crowd being so much louder than the other. The other may be a bigger crowd - just less willing to shout about their business - still there, still happening - just not talking about it.

[Act Two]

To answer the original question, yes I believe WS stay for the kids sometimes. I'm sitting here looking at my beautiful 11 year old boy and wondering how I'll ever give him up, even half time no matter what we've done to the marriage.

[LFH]

Sorry L, I didn't mean to imply anything..Was just assuming that when a couple is on the healing path and working together, the lies would be over.. ask most WS's on here, once they've decided to recommit to their spouses and to the marriage, lying really would be pointless. Maybe Anne or another exWS could answer this, since she actually is someone who has worked really hard with her husband, and worked on herself.

 

I know you didn't necessarily mean anything by that, but can you see why I'm frazzled by what is a honestly a double standard? I wasn't trying to be snarky, yet I was instantly called out as such. Why?

I agree that if they're recommitting that the lies should stop, but some of them don't seem to know how. And some honestly just don't want to. You know if they went to the effort to get a nice cushy little situation set up for themselves with a wife and girlfriend and they like it that way, and their girlfriend isn't pushing them to leave or they have her nicely believing things the way they want, with the "oh baby, just wait a little longer, I don't want to leave the little ones" or whatever they are pushing as their excuse, then what's to stop them from getting a new phone, a new email and making it sound like they are completely remorseful, laying low for a few days and "committing" again. We hear all the time about how a spouse isn't really doing the work or they aren't as committed to things as they should be. If they were really committed they'd be the ones searching out message boards to find out why they acted the way they are, but they aren't the ones here are they?

[whichwayisup]

I get it. I see it too - that if it applies to the AP, the WS MUST be lying - but if it applies to the BS - the WS MUST be telling the truth. I have no understanding of why anyone thinks like that - only thing I can come up with is fear???? Fear of accepting that it is just as likely that they are being lied to as it is that the AP was lied to. ????

 

If before D-Day, I see your point as WS is untrustworthy and he/she does lie. If you're talking about after D-day, then what I said could very well apply.

 

it's like that analogy, once a cheater, always a cheater. Some WS's never cheat again. Some WS's never lie again. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

There are 2 sides of the coin, though again it's the WS who knows the real truth for sure.

[AnotherRound]

To answer the original question, yes I believe WS stay for the kids sometimes. I'm sitting here looking at my beautiful 11 year old boy and wondering how I'll ever give him up, even half time no matter what we've done to the marriage.

 

Not that I really like your post - as it is a situation I wish nobody had to ever endure. I just hate that this is what it comes to for so many people - that they have to give up their parenting time because their relationship with a SO didn't work out.

 

I can't imagine a much harder decision to make - affair or not - than whether to divorce or not when there are children involved. That's why I believe it when people say that's why they are staying - it makes total sense to me that they would, even if I disagree with them that it's better for the kids. Yes, sometimes it can be, but from what I've seen and experienced - it's better to leave in the long run, but that short term part is hell on everyone.

 

I hope that you find peace in your situation.

[anne1707]

Sorry L, I didn't mean to imply anything..Was just assuming that when a couple is on the healing path and working together, the lies would be over.. ask most WS's on here, once they've decided to recommit to their spouses and to the marriage, lying really would be pointless. Maybe Anne or another exWS could answer this, since she actually is someone who has worked really hard with her husband, and worked on herself.

 

 

Once I recommitted, there was no way I could lie to my H. I had laid myself bare to get to the point where my H would consider reconciliation so there really was no point at all in lying. Also I was tired of all that cr*p, both physically and emotionally. I had spent three years not being true to my H, my family, or even myself and I just wanted all that to stop.

 

I was so grateful that my H gave me a chance (and I don't mean in some kind of pathetic, subserviant way) that there was no way I was going to abuse the chance he was giving me. I know there were things I could have hidden from him to save him further pain but there seemed no point in that. We were at make or break point and we had to deal with all we had both done wrong.

[RainDown]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe a WS does not want to leave his/her children.

 

I would NEVER leave my child, no matter how irresistible, great, awesome, fabulous and wonderful some guy is. Never. No man is important enough for me to only see my child every other weekend and on Wednesdays. I don't want to have a "relationship" with my child; I want to live with her 24/7. No way would I give that up for some guy. Any guy. Period.

 

While I understand that the "children" are a convenient excuse for some WSs, I do believe that other WSs genuinely feel the same way I do - especially the men who are very likely in this country (USA) to wind up as every other weekend and Wednesday dads. I wouldn't do it and I understand why they wouldn't do it. In my world, no "adult" relationship is more important than my every day relationship with my child, and any man who doesn't get that is welcome to meet the curb.

[whichwayisup]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe a WS does not want to leave his/her children.

 

I would NEVER leave my child, no matter how irresistible, great, awesome, fabulous and wonderful some guy is. Never. No man is important enough for me to only see my child every other weekend and on Wednesdays. I don't want to have a "relationship" with my child; I want to live with her 24/7. No way would I give that up for some guy. Any guy. Period.

 

While I understand that the "children" are a convenient excuse for some WSs, I do believe that other WSs genuinely feel the same way I do - especially the men who are very likely in this country (USA) to wind up as every other weekend and Wednesday dads. I wouldn't do it and I understand why they wouldn't do it. In my world, no "adult" relationship is more important than my every day relationship with my child, and any man who doesn't get that is welcome to meet the curb.

 

Good point, but when one chooses to have an A, then they are in fact putting their life at home with their children at risk! Risking seeing them everyday, spending time with them, seeing them every single morning. Why even bother having an A if one is terrified of losing family life? Why risk so much for someone else outside of the marriage, family unit?

[AnotherRound]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe a WS does not want to leave his/her children.

 

I would NEVER leave my child, no matter how irresistible, great, awesome, fabulous and wonderful some guy is. Never. No man is important enough for me to only see my child every other weekend and on Wednesdays. I don't want to have a "relationship" with my child; I want to live with her 24/7. No way would I give that up for some guy. Any guy. Period.

 

While I understand that the "children" are a convenient excuse for some WSs, I do believe that other WSs genuinely feel the same way I do - especially the men who are very likely in this country (USA) to wind up as every other weekend and Wednesday dads. I wouldn't do it and I understand why they wouldn't do it. In my world, no "adult" relationship is more important than my every day relationship with my child, and any man who doesn't get that is welcome to meet the curb.

 

Exactly how my exMM put it, lol. He is now, bc of the divorce, a weekend dad - but only when it's convenient for the exW. He was happy with the affair situation only bc it allowed him constant access to his children - he hated the "sneaking" around required to avoid throwing it in her face, and the lying he had to do to his children at times about where he spent the night.

 

In his ideal world, he would get to have a fulfilling relationship AND have unguided by legalities access to his children -but this society makes that absolutely impossible, and even frowned upon. I knew he wasn't leaving while the kids were there - and I would have never asked him to as I knew that's why he was there. He is a very involved Dad, very close with his children - and it kills him to not have contact with them in person every day (he talks to them daily on the phone). That was the only thing he was trying to avoid by having an affair - it was either that, or just live an unhappy life in a dead marriage - which he did for many years before allowing himself to seek some happiness for himself outside of the marriage - but with full disclosure to the now exW - and I admire that about him.

 

We did have to sneak around a bit simply bc we didn't want his children to have to hear about things at school or from other parents (very small town) and we didn't want to rub it in his wife's face as she was not able to secure a relationship outside of theirs - although that was an option for her. She wasn't interested in an adult relationship, with anyone - so, we tried really hard to not rub it in -that was never our intention, to make her feel bad or lord it over her.

 

It was all about his children - keeping them out of harm's way, at least until they were old enough to start to be able to grasp that their parents are people too, just like them, and their knowledge of adult relationships could be a bit more filled in.

 

Again, I would hate to be in that position and am constantly thankful that my exH and I didn't have children together so that I was able to leave a harmful situation without having to protect any children in the process - I don't think I would have stayed, but as the woman, I would have been pretty sure I would get the majority of parenting time, so it wouldn't have been as bad for me as the exH if that had been the case.

[AnotherRound]

Good point, but when one chooses to have an A, then they are in fact putting their life at home with their children at risk! Risking seeing them everyday, spending time with them, seeing them every single morning. Why even bother having an A if one is terrified of losing family life? Why risk so much for someone else outside of the marriage, family unit?

 

Because humans can only tolerate not having a solid connection with other humans for so long before it takes its toll on them emotionally and psychologically. I think people that choose this route really are trying to protect their family. It's not about choosing one person over another, or over their children, imo. It's about finding yourself in a situation that has no good solution - so, they choose the one they think will cause the least harm.

 

I'm not so cynical to assume that anyone that does this is selfish - I tend to believe that they really are doing the best that they can at that time with what they have. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't - but either way, people are going to be hurt. A divorce can be just as hurtful to some as discovering an affair. So, they take their chances - I can't expect anyone to make such a difficult choice without at least trying to self preserve on some level.

[anne1707]

It's about finding yourself in a situation that has no good solution - so, they choose the one they think will cause the least harm. .

 

The first part I can easily relate to. I agonised over the fact that I knew there was no end to my affair where there was no pain. Whatever I decided would cause pain for my H or the exOM. Any of the scenarios meant pain for me.

 

The one I chose? I think not the one of least harm. If I had chosen the exOM when he wanted me too, he would have "looked after me" (hindsight says not very well). Whereas choosing my H - and if he gave me that chance - meant guaranteed pain whilst trying to work on us.

 

Sometimes the most painful route is the best and healthiest one

[RainDown]

Good point, but when one chooses to have an A, then they are in fact putting their life at home with their children at risk! Risking seeing them everyday, spending time with them, seeing them every single morning. Why even bother having an A if one is terrified of losing family life? Why risk so much for someone else outside of the marriage, family unit?

 

I agree with you. I think people "risk it" because they think they will never be caught. And most aren't. They may live in fear of being caught and thrown out on their ass, but that mostly doesn't happen. It's the same reason many criminals commit crimes - they believe they will never be caught - and most aren't. I think if you were to actually sit down and do a risk analysis on infidelity you'd find that the overwhelming majority of affairs in fact do go undetected.

 

WSs risk it because they figure they will never be caught. And they are right. For every 1 person on this board who have caught their spouse in a affair, there are probably 99 who haven't. And even the ones who are caught manage to do enough damage control that their spouse doesn't actually leave them over it. So they low for awhile until the heat is past and then they pick up right where they left off.

 

To voluntarily leave a marriage and children for an affair partner doesn't happen very often at all. Left to their own devices, most WSs will try to maintain both the marriage and affair; but when push comes to shove it seems that most of them fight to maintain the marriage and try to keep their marriage together.

 

As an OW I've always understood that I will be the first to go if MMs marriage and children are threatened, just as my AP (if I were married) would hit the curb if it came down to a choice between my child and AP.

 

I agree it's hard to understand why a WS would risk his relationship with his children whilst pursuing an extramarital affair which surely is a threat to that relationship with his children, but I think they do it because they really believe they never will be caught. And mostly they are right. Few people actually catch their spouse cheating.

[LFH]

 

WSs risk it because they figure they will never be caught. And they are right. For every 1 person on this board who have caught their spouse in a affair, there are probably 99 who haven't. And even the ones who are caught manage to do enough damage control that their spouse doesn't actually leave them over it. So they low for awhile until the heat is past and then they pick up right where they left off.

 

To voluntarily leave a marriage and children for an affair partner doesn't happen very often at all. Left to their own devices, most WSs will try to maintain both the marriage and affair; but when push comes to shove it seems that most of them fight to maintain the marriage and try to keep their marriage together.

 

 

It's true that if they really want to, and or they really have to most choose their marriage, but you made my point very clearly here. If they don't have to (and getting caught usually isn't enough to make them "HAVE" to) they don't choose.

 

I'd actually really like to be able to like your post about 100 times, because it's so logical and accurate.

[Act Two]

Good point, but when one chooses to have an A, then they are in fact putting their life at home with their children at risk! Risking seeing them everyday, spending time with them, seeing them every single morning. Why even bother having an A if one is terrified of losing family life? Why risk so much for someone else outside of the marriage, family unit?

 

It's a great question. I can answer it to some degree, but only from my experience. In some ways, I saw my affair as an exit affair, because I really did want out of the marriage in many ways. I had given up on things getting better. At the same time, I was absolutely terrified (and still am now that I am going through it) of the impact on the children, my husband and I giving up the children, etc. to be 50/50 parents. So I pretty much sat on the fence for a long time, which was incredibly selfish. I had never really been in love with anyone (and no, I'm not re-writing my marital history) before exOM, so he was like a drink of water after being thirsty a long time. It was hard to give him up. I can't say I didn't consider the possibility of being caught; in fact, I probably let myself get caught if the truth be told. Like a coward, there were points were I just wanted him to leave me.

 

The whole time I was in it (or at least after about months) I was thinking of getting out of my marriage to be with exOM. My conscience REALLY bothered me though. I also struggled minute by minute, all day long about the kids. I can't say I was mother of the year by being in an affair and hurting their father, not to mention the time I did spend with exOM was stealing from the kids (as much as I thought I was doing a bang-up job multi-tasking and meeting everyone's needs- I just wasn't). I tried to envision all the time the reality of being a 50/50 mom and what life would be like for the kids and my husband as well. I wanted it all to work out and for me to have a fulfilling romantic relationship AND my family, but of course, that didn't work. Cake eating at its finest, I guess.

 

In the end, it was a short-term "fix" that I truly regret with all of my heart. As I've said before, I hate how much pain I caused my husband even though our marriage sucked. I hate that I caused exOM pain.

[Got it]

To answer the original question, yes I believe WS stay for the kids sometimes. I'm sitting here looking at my beautiful 11 year old boy and wondering how I'll ever give him up, even half time no matter what we've done to the marriage.

 

I am sorry Act Two. I have heard the saying that having children is having your heart out of your body and walking around. I am sorry for your struggles.

[18Years2Late]

In MY sitch only...

 

xMM absolutely couldn't come to terms with being a 1/2 time dad...he was the main child "care taker"...always was...in the last 6 months of our A he was divorcing...wife filed and moved out to her own apt...they shared

custody 2 weeks on/2 weeks off...in his off 2 weeks there was a noticeable change in him and he was Sooooo depressed...he aged 3 years in that 6 months...until he couldn't take it anymore...he missed having his kids full time and he was extremely worried about them when they were gone...the W is complete trailer park trash...in and out of jail for domestic violence...property damage...their property...etc etc...he had them full time for the 1st 2 months of their 6 month separation bc the judge ordered it...then for the next 4 months she manipulated the kids to hurt him...they would call him crying...anyway you get the point...now he's right where he wants to be...with his kids full time...and unfortunately the W is a package deal that he's willing to make/take...he won't go to court to get full custody bc her actions and taking their mother away would hurt them more...and I understand...it's not an excuse...he didn't lie to me (save your degragatory posts fellow LSers)...I saw it with my own to eyes and talked to her way more than I care to forget...I know them WAY better than you (general you)...

 

parents do what THEY THINK is best for their kids regardless of who tells them that "best" is hurting the kids 10x more...they're not my kids...he's not M to me...they are both severly mentally ill and they feed off each other...it is what it is...as far as I know they are still D but I've been in full NC since 12/5/12 so I really couldn't tell you nor do I care...he hurt me 1 too many times regardless of the "excuses"...if he showed up on my doorstep with his luggage tomorrow...I'd put him right back on the plane via a paid cab ride...no more trailer park trash for me...and the sad/selfish part for me is that his kids are going to be so eff'd up as teens and adults (they are well on there way) bc of what he thinks is best and I don't want to deal with that...I have 3 amazing children so are psychologically healthy (and I'm divorcing) and I don't EVER want to expose them to any of their shenanigans...EVER...it was fun...the sex was suburb...but I'm DONE...forever and ever amen...

 

Now on the other side of the jagged triangle...I'm divorcing too...get this...wait for it..."FOR MY KIDS"...their dad and I are amicable...but we aren't happy...I don't want them to grow up thinking this is how normal married people live...we do 1 week on/1 week off...and it's perfect for everyone...who ever heard of 2 weeks?!?!?...I'd be crazy depressed too if I had to be away from my kids for 2 weeks?!?!?...maybe xMM should have tried that then he'd not be living a lie...but he wouldn't be with me either so I guess he should keep drinking the kool-aid...and on top on that knowing everyday that the kids are miserable and crying?!?!?...my kids are just as happy with their dad as they are with me...

 

So there is 2 completely different "for the kids" stories...IME only...YMMV...

 

I think WWIU said it best "You can't compete with the kids"...his or mine...

Edited March 17, 2013 by 18Years2Late

[18Years2Late]

Almost forgot...BS spouse stays bc it's a game to her and she won...and she lays awake at night thinking of new ways to hurt xMM bc "she loves him"...barf...not my problem anymore...thank goodness...