Pope Francis

[pureinheart]

Excellent choice. Congratulations to him...he seems like a wonderful person:)

[somedude81]

I was just reading up on him.

 

Pope Francis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Sounds like a decent guy. Born in Argentina to Italian immigrants.

 

Although

 

"Cardinal Bergoglio has encouraged his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia, describing the pro-choice movement as a "culture of death". Francis opposed the free distribution of contraceptives in Argentina."

 

That's par for the course.

 

Why anybody is opposed to contraceptives is beyond me.

[TaraMaiden]

They've picked a cardinal who's not only adamantly opposed to abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception like his predecessor, but who also thinks that gay adoptions discriminate against children.

 

As an added bonus, he's also been accused of being cosy with the 1976–1983 Argentinian military dictatorship and helping hide some of dictator Jorge Videla's political prisoners from the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, as well as being complicit in the 1976 kidnapping of two liberal Jesuit priests, which would essentially make him an accessory to murder and false imprisonment if true—and even if not, his silence during the atrocities committed by the country’s military dictatorship is troubling enough in and of itself.

 

But, hey, nobody's perfect, right?

 

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

 

"The Pope is 'dead' - Long live the Pope."

 

Same, old, same-old.

 

Blinkered, bigoted, homophobic, biased, bothersome old bugger.

 

Glad the Church is moving with the times.

 

I utterly deplore and condemn their selection.

[TaraMaiden]

And this is one of the cardinals who helped vote the new Pope, in...

 

If they want to improve their reputation, they're going to have to do better than this.

 

Millions of people who donated funds to the Catholic Church must be delighted their money has been so well-spent....

 

In any other walk of life, a paedophile would be ostracised, lose his job, and become a social outcast, never to work again.

 

The Catholic church, it seems, holds different views on how sex offenders should be treated.

At least, those whom it has nurtured and educated itself.....

[somedude81]

Another thing I don't get is why it's such a big deal to get a new pope.

 

It's not like any of the people actually voted for him and I don't remember him campaigning.

 

One guy quits and another gets the job. What's the big deal?

[dreamingoftigers]

Hmm. I just read the earlier specs on him.

 

He seemed like a better choice than Benedict until now.

[somedude81]

...Something tells me you're not a devout Catholic.

 

If you were, you'd get it more.

As you're not, no amount of explaining will clarify it for you.

A devout Catholic? Heh, absolutely not.

 

I'm a Christian and see Catholicism as a curiosity.

 

Anyways I did a little reasurch of the Catholic stance on birth control, and apparently it all boils down to the Church believing that sex should only be done with the intent to have a kid. In other words, if you aren't trying to make a baby, you should not have sex, even if you are married, because that is a sin.

 

Now the question I have is why the F are there so many Catholics in the world? Can't they see how screwed up their religion is?

[Woggle]

The Catholic church can believe whatever they want as long as they stop trying to force it on everybody else. Be happy with their own corner and they can do what they want.

[Citizen Erased]

Wonder how many child sex scandals he had to cover up to get all those votes.

 

I do like his name though, they needed some new ones.

[Mina]

 

Sums it up nicely.

[pureinheart]

A devout Catholic? Heh, absolutely not.

 

I'm a Christian and see Catholicism as a curiosity.

 

Anyways I did a little reasurch of the Catholic stance on birth control, and apparently it all boils down to the Church believing that sex should only be done with the intent to have a kid. In other words, if you aren't trying to make a baby, you should not have sex, even if you are married, because that is a sin.

 

Now the question I have is why the F are there so many Catholics in the world? Can't they see how screwed up their religion is?

 

Interesting- have never heard this before. I went to Catholic school for 4 years and was raised Catholic. At the school we had "religion" for one hour every morning, this covered Bible Scripture and teachings as well as Catholic doctrine- thinking I would have heard this at some point ...also most of my family are still practicing Catholics and have never heard this from them, but will ask my Aunt the next time I talk to her:)

[pureinheart]

The Catholic church can believe whatever they want as long as they stop trying to force it on everybody else. Be happy with their own corner and they can do what they want.

 

And what is exactly is being forced upon you and everybody else? Personally I see this to be the other way around, but suppose that would be more for the political forum than this one:)

[pureinheart]

They've picked a cardinal who's not only adamantly opposed to abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception like his predecessor, but who also thinks that gay adoptions discriminate against children.

 

As an added bonus, he's also been accused of being cosy with the 1976–1983 Argentinian military dictatorship and helping hide some of dictator Jorge Videla's political prisoners from the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, as well as being complicit in the 1976 kidnapping of two liberal Jesuit priests, which would essentially make him an accessory to murder and false imprisonment if true—and even if not, his silence during the atrocities committed by the country’s military dictatorship is troubling enough in and of itself.

 

But, hey, nobody's perfect, right?

 

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

 

"The Pope is 'dead' - Long live the Pope."

 

Same, old, same-old.

 

Blinkered, bigoted, homophobic, biased, bothersome old bugger.

 

Glad the Church is moving with the times.

 

I utterly deplore and condemn their selection.

 

Man I wish I could multi-quote:D, so please bare with me Tara-

 

In bold, those are Biblical principles of which he is supposed to represent, the other two, I'm not sure of what the Bible teaches on those things, so they could be personal convictions and I think every human being has a right to that.

 

Second paragraph is rumor, so that would be up to ones discretion to believe or not. Now as far as him being silent, I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding that- was it concerning "confession"? If so he is bound to secrecy ...but again, I don't know.

 

Second bold- are you saying these things because of how he believes, the convictions he holds?

[somedude81]

Interesting- have never heard this before. I went to Catholic school for 4 years and was raised Catholic. At the school we had "religion" for one hour every morning, this covered Bible Scripture and teachings as well as Catholic doctrine- thinking I would have heard this at some point ...also most of my family are still practicing Catholics and have never heard this from them, but will ask my Aunt the next time I talk to her:)

I got that from here.

 

Birth Control | Catholic Answers

 

------------------

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.

 

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

-------------------

 

And it goes on and on about why it's wrong to do anything that prevents a child from being born.

[Woggle]

And what is exactly is being forced upon you and everybody else? Personally I see this to be the other way around, but suppose that would be more for the political forum than this one:)

 

They try to influence politicians to ban abortion, gay marriage and even birth control even though not everybody is not catholic. If they practiced their faith and left everybody else alone I would have no issue with them.

[TaraMaiden]

 

In bold, those are Biblical principles of which he is supposed to represent, the other two, I'm not sure of what the Bible teaches on those things, so they could be personal convictions and I think every human being has a right to that.

If they're personal convictions he has no right to impose them as taught doctrine on anyone else.

 

Second paragraph is rumor, so that would be up to ones discretion to believe or not. Now as far as him being silent, I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding that- was it concerning "confession"? If so he is bound to secrecy ...but again, I don't know.

 

You're 'not sure'.... you 'don't know'....

 

How about doing a little research and BEING sure, and KNOWING, before you pipe up in defence of a person - and institution - you're clearly not that well informed about?

I was a Roman Catholic, born, raised and educated into the religion, by a large Italian Catholic family, and 4 long years at a Boarding Convent school. So I think, in all probability, I've had more direct access to information than you.

Frankly, there are things I'd be happier not being 'sure' of, or 'knowing'....

 

Second bold- are you saying these things because of how he believes, the convictions he holds?

No, I'm saying them because that's what he has already demonstrated himself to be.

With the possible exception of the last one.

That is pure conjecture on my part, but given the continuous scandals the being revealed, it really wouldn't surprise me if the allegation was true.

[serial muse]

------------------

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

-------------------

 

.

 

(surprised I'm the first to post this...)

 

Edited to add: I wanted to point out, though, that Calvin was a Protestant. So was Luther, who also condemned the spilling of seed upon the ground. So, you know. There's that.

Edited March 14, 2013 by serial muse

[dreamingoftigers]

More sensibly, Onan refused to carry on his brother's family line which was of very grave importance back then.

 

Only the fanatics who want to control every position in the bedroom use this to snap over "wasted sperm."

 

Sperm is hardly a rare commodity.

 

Heck, there are banks full of it.

 

No no.

 

There's a well-known biblical basis for the belief about contraception. Catholics and, obviously, many Protestants are of the same mindset about it, because it all comes down to the story of Onan, which is in Genesis. He had to marry his dead brother's wife, as you did in those days, but he didn't want her to have his child because the kid wouldn't legally be considered his heir. So he "spilled his seed upon the ground". And he was killed for it (died prematurely), as God told him he would be. Genesis 38:9-10

 

That's the biblical basis for the contraception argument in general - the "wasting" of sperm.

 

(That song is from Monty Python's movie "The Meaning of Life"; it's meant to be a comic twist on this.)

[BetheButterfly]

No no.

 

There's a well-known biblical basis for the belief about contraception. Catholics and, obviously, many Protestants are of the same mindset about it, because it all comes down to the story of Onan, which is in Genesis. He had to marry his dead brother's wife, as you did in those days, but he didn't want her to have his child because the kid wouldn't legally be considered his heir. So he "spilled his seed upon the ground". And he was killed for it (died prematurely), as God told him he would be. Genesis 38:9-10

 

That's the biblical basis for the contraception argument in general - the "wasting" of sperm.

 

(That song is from Monty Python's movie "The Meaning of Life"; it's meant to be a comic twist on this.)

 

I'm a Protestant and although I've heard of Onan, most Gentile Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) do not consider ourselves under the customs/traditions of Abraham's descendants or the Law of Moses which took place in Moses' time. Most Gentile Christian women do not tend to marry their dead husband's brother either.

 

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel)'s descendants did most definitely emphasize family, because of God's promise:

 

Genesis 17

Genesis 17 NIV - The Covenant of Circumcision - When - Bible Gateway

"3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you"

 

In order to be a father of many nations, his descendants have a lot of reproducing to do! :bunny: I very much admire Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and his descendants, including Moses and King David and everyone I've learned about since my childhood. Now, they weren't perfect, but then again, neither am I or any other mere mortal I know!

 

As a Gentile Protestant, I don't feel like I need to reproduce, but I do believe human life is precious and if I get pregnant, I hope to be a wonderful Mom and protect/nurture/provide for my child, not kill the tiny little life beginning in my womb, you know? I'm not a Mom yet though.

 

My husband and I use condoms because we are waiting to have a baby, and I've never had anyone in any of the churches I've attended tell me that contraceptives are wrong, though I do know people of other churches who think so, mainly Catholics. I have friends who are Catholics who I consider my sisters in Christ, though I don't agree with everything they believe and I don't follow the Pope at all.

 

Anyways, that song horrified me cause the kids were singing it!!! I was too shocked and mortified that the kids were singing about "sacred sperm" to see the humor in the song lol! That brings up the topic of when is it good to teach kids about how babies are made!

 

Pureinheart, I'm sorry for going off topic in your thread, and I hope it's ok that i quoted the Bible... is it ok? Love you

 

About the new Pope, I'm glad he asked people to pray for him. I will, even though I'm not Catholic, and I very much hope God blesses all people, including Catholics, and that all people, no matter what they believe, grow in love and kindness and goodness and purity, not hurting people, but helping people! I am very glad that Catholics and Protestants can be friends and love/care for each other in spite of our differences.

Oh! My Latin American friends who are Catholics are very happy that the new Pope is from Argentina! ¡Están muy felices!

Edited March 14, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[somedude81]

.

 

(surprised I'm the first to post this...)

 

Edited to add: I wanted to point out, though, that Calvin was a Protestant. So was Luther, who also condemned the spilling of seed upon the ground. So, you know. There's that.

Hah that was great!

Edited March 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[pureinheart]

If they're personal convictions he has no right to impose them as taught doctrine on anyone else.

 

 

 

You're 'not sure'.... you 'don't know'....

 

How about doing a little research and BEING sure, and KNOWING, before you pipe up in defence of a person - and institution - you're clearly not that well informed about?

I was a Roman Catholic, born, raised and educated into the religion, by a large Italian Catholic family, and 4 long years at a Boarding Convent school. So I think, in all probability, I've had more direct access to information than you.

Frankly, there are things I'd be happier not being 'sure' of, or 'knowing'....

 

 

No, I'm saying them because that's what he has already demonstrated himself to be.

With the possible exception of the last one.

That is pure conjecture on my part, but given the continuous scandals the being revealed, it really wouldn't surprise me if the allegation was true.

 

Of course he has a right to his personal convictions, every one of us has personal convictions that we inject daily that others have to live by.

 

Tara, LOL, "I don't know" a lot and have never claimed to be the sharpest pencil in the box. My experience with the Catholic faith was different than yours. It was a very good experience...the people that practice Catholism are wonderful people IMO. Do you have more experience? Maybe you do

 

You have a right concerning your conjecture and opinions as I do ...should I do more research? Of course I should, but lack the time because I have to read everything (as of late have turned into a sceptic as to what is reported) and that takes forever due to comprehension and my filter being way off right now. I trust the members here more than all media outlets at this point. I know the posting styles of the members and for the mostpart know where they stand on most issues...they are easier to understand.

 

Personally would rather jump the gun in defence rather than to tare down. If I'm wrong, am more than happy to be corrected with facts. I don't investigate every single person. As far as the institution goes, is there inconsistancies? Of course there is, and I've yet to find a faith that doesn't.

 

Pope Francis has many possitive aspects to his life..hey maybe I'm very naive, but I saw his face, and saw his eyes and liked what I saw...so sue me:laugh:

[M30USA]

The Pope and Catholic Church represent what happens when Christianity is built by the hands of mankind, and not the hand of God. As Paul said to the pagan religions of Rome, God does not live in houses constructed by human hands. As Jesus said, there can be religion which is merely "rules taught by men". Jesus said the Father seeks those who will worship him "in spirit and truth".

 

This in my opinion is the hardest task of any pastor or preacher. You are dealing with a message that is not created by man and it is not promoted by man but rather by God's Spirit. Yet you are forced to teach it in a church or social setting which naturally makes people associate it with a human institution. This honestly has always scared me away from being a pastor. Because I know what I am dealing with is God's word.

Edited March 14, 2013 by M30USA

[taiko]

They've picked a cardinal who's not only adamantly opposed to abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception like his predecessor,........

But, hey, nobody's perfect, right?

 

I utterly deplore and condemn their selection.

To be fair they can do no different as the position may have well have been written on stone tablets. To take another position either means they have to sell that God changed His mind. Or that previous leadership of the church was in fact not infailable.

 

Because remember they think in terms of teaching morality and about Christianity they are indeed perfect.

[somedude81]

No no.

 

There's a well-known biblical basis for the belief about contraception. Catholics and, obviously, many Protestants are of the same mindset about it, because it all comes down to the story of Onan, which is in Genesis. He had to marry his dead brother's wife, as you did in those days, but he didn't want her to have his child because the kid wouldn't legally be considered his heir. So he "spilled his seed upon the ground". And he was killed for it (died prematurely), as God told him he would be. Genesis 38:9-10

 

That's the biblical basis for the contraception argument in general - the "wasting" of sperm.

 

(That song is from Monty Python's movie "The Meaning of Life"; it's meant to be a comic twist on this.)

I want to go back to this point.

 

So the sin wasn't that sperm was being wasted, the sin was that he didn't want to carry on his bothers line which was very important to their culture.

 

Then the Catholic Church is misinterpreting the cultural taboo and changing it into something about birth control in general.

 

I've also heard that Onan story used to explain why masturbation is bad, which is something that the Protestant church is guilty of spreading.

 

Ugh, I wonder how many other things are sins because somebody got the wrong meaning of something and then just kept on passing it along?

[TaraMaiden]

Of course he has a right to his personal convictions, every one of us has personal convictions that we inject daily that others have to live by.

Oh please - we don't pass it off as strict religious doctrine by which all of our 2 million followers are bound to accept and follow...., and what's more our convictions are rarely bigoted and life-threatening....

 

Tara, LOL, "I don't know" a lot and have never claimed to be the sharpest pencil in the box. My experience with the Catholic faith was different than yours. It was a very good experience...the people that practice Catholism are wonderful people IMO. Do you have more experience? Maybe you do

It seems patently obvious I do... But I too had very good experiences with wonderful people. However, your argument is pointless, because we're not talking about that. we're talking about the hypocrisy of senior members of the Catholic church who feel entitled to lay down the law with regard to principles most people are directly opposed to, while securing anonymity for perpetrators of crimes, and immunity from prosecution.

 

 

You have a right concerning your conjecture and opinions as I do ...should I do more research? Of course I should, but lack the time because I have to read everything (as of late have turned into a sceptic as to what is reported) and that takes forever due to comprehension and my filter being way off right now

.

 

You know, when I come across a subject which I know little or nothing about, I actually refrain from commenting for fear of making a total idiot of myself....

 

I trust the members here more than all media outlets at this point. I know the posting styles of the members and for the mostpart know where they stand on most issues...they are easier to understand.

What does this have to do with anything....?

 

Personally would rather jump the gun in defence rather than to tare down. If I'm wrong, am more than happy to be corrected with facts. I don't investigate every single person.

 

So in that line of thinking, had you not known that Hitler was guilty of mass-genocide, you would have commended him for his fine artistic eye, excellent watercolours and devout church attendance....? He was a Roman catholic too, by the way....

 

As far as the institution goes, is there inconsistancies? Of course there is, and I've yet to find a faith that doesn't.

How many faiths have you actually examined and researched, thoroughly?

 

Pope Francis has many possitive aspects to his life..hey maybe I'm very naive, but I saw his face, and saw his eyes and liked what I saw...so sue me

 

Oh, yes, I think everyone should simply go by what he looks like, i couldn't agree more.... Just as everyone loved and trusted Dr Harold Shipman, too.....