pie2 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I'm intrigued by the pope's lifestyle of simplicity. And with the nod to St. Francis of Assisi, I wonder how much of St. Francis's beliefs the new Pope will incorporate into the church. Do you think he would be able to change some of the 'pomp and circumstance' associated with the Catholic church? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Cynic! I guess I can dream. Maybe he'll come out in the Franciscan robe once or twice, at least. And carry a bunny. I mean, why not trade the red shoes for some comfy sandals? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I don't know whether to be amused or appalled by the misconceptions y'all have of Catholics :eek: going back to the original statement: Yes, we Catholics got a new leader; his style seems to be less administrative/brainy and more pastoral/visceral. I think – like the other pontiffs we've known in our lifetime – he'll bring his own particular treasure of spirituality to share the world if it'd just pull its head out of its collected *ss and think on a more spiritual, rather than give its typical jaded best ... I don't deny we've had our problems, but guess what? The Mother Church is a 2,000-year-old institution led by the Holy Spirit and managed by humans, so yeah ... there are going to be less than stellar moments. However, those things must be used to effect change for the good, not be rolled around in the way a mutt takes to a carcass in a ditch, thinking "hey, this looks good." Because then you deny what the Spirit is trying to impart. So ... I hope Pope Paco is able to help all of us move into further healing, rather than allow us to continually and gleefully pick at the scabs over those painful events, subsequently screwing up the healing process. other thought is to assure those who think "new administration, getting with the times." Um, no. Big N-O, no. The pope's job is to evangelize ~ introduce people to the Lord Jesus – while upholding the faith. That means the Church isn't ever going to say, "We've changed our minds. Birth control, abortion, married priesthood, women priesthood ... all that stuff is in. Oh, and we endorse gay marriage." Her job isn't to be of this world, it's to help get her followers to heaven. She's supposed to stand for certain things, period. And while you may personally disagree with that ~ and that's okay ~ it doesn't mean she's supposed to change to suit current social norms/beliefs. She's supposed to be a spiritual haven for those whose focus is on the life beyond the temporal one. last point ... whoever keeps saying that the Catholic Church is against sexuality, even in marriage, really needs to get some more educatin' .... She teaches that sex *outside marriage* is a sin. Husbands and wives are supposed to find delight in each other and revel in their sexual relationship because it is God's gift to them, a way to unite them in ways like no other. Children are just a natural extension of that. I do understand this is the current mindset, and that (possibly pre-Vatican II) when society was more uptight, the outlook was different and we had beliefs circulating like what the one poster was saying "married Catholic couples aren't supposed to get it on, because it's *bad* ..." 2 Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 last point ... whoever keeps saying that the Catholic Church is against sexuality, even in marriage, really needs to get some more educatin' .... She teaches that sex *outside marriage* is a sin. Husbands and wives are supposed to find delight in each other and revel in their sexual relationship because it is God's gift to them, a way to unite them in ways like no other. Children are just a natural extension of that. I do understand this is the current mindset, and that (possibly pre-Vatican II) when society was more uptight, the outlook was different and we had beliefs circulating like what the one poster was saying "married Catholic couples aren't supposed to get it on, because it's *bad* ..." You might want to do a little research http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/379347-pope-francis#post4687957 Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 What are the credentials of that site to accurately represent Catholicism? Or did you just copy something from the first site you found that advanced your point? A domaiin lookup doesn't indicate any affiliation with the church. The main contact is a Karl Keating from California who, if I read correctly, is a bit of an extremist. Don't know, don't care. All I know is that the Catholic Church is against birth control and I was trying to find out why. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Don't know, don't care. All I know is that the Catholic Church is against birth control and I was trying to find out why. If you bare refering to Catholic Awnsers website they operate under the authority of the Bishop of San Diego CA. In my experience the average critic knows more of the Catholic dogma then the average Catholic. Or the average Catholic just doesn't believe the claims Church leadership makes for themselves. Especially on sex, they might read the Song of Soloman but besides the premarriage class continuing adult education on their rules are dropped given the Catholic plausible deniablity on everything but abortion and "artificial" birth control. As an outsider I see a progression. Once the average person got a Bible in his own language traditin became as important as the Bible and Catholic leadership then proclaimed that God enabled them to teach without error. So now no matter who becomes Pope he can't change without saying God changed His mind or the Church leaders were in error in their teaching. Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I don't know whether to be amused or appalled by the misconceptions y'all have of Catholics :eek: I'm sorry if I wrote down any misconceptions. While I don't agree with Catholics on everything (If I did, I'd be Catholic), I do love my Catholic friends very much, and respect them. My sister works at a Catholic hospital, and I know many people have been greatly helped by Catholic people. going back to the original statement: Yes, we Catholics got a new leader; his style seems to be less administrative/brainy and more pastoral/visceral. I think – like the other pontiffs we've known in our lifetime – he'll bring his own particular treasure of spirituality to share the world if it'd just pull its head out of its collected *ss and think on a more spiritual, rather than give its typical jaded best ... Again, I like that he asked for prayer. That is very cool! My Mom, also a Protestant, likes that he lives humbly. I like that too. My Latin American Catholic friends LOVE that he is from Argentina! I don't deny we've had our problems, but guess what? Cool. Protestant churches have problems too. I think every group does, whether a religious one or not... The Mother Church is a 2,000-year-old institution led by the Holy Spirit and managed by humans, so yeah ... there are going to be less than stellar moments. However, those things must be used to effect change for the good, not be rolled around in the way a mutt takes to a carcass in a ditch, thinking "hey, this looks good." Because then you deny what the Spirit is trying to impart. So ... I hope Pope Paco is able to help all of us move into further healing, rather than allow us to continually and gleefully pick at the scabs over those painful events, subsequently screwing up the healing process. other thought is to assure those who think "new administration, getting with the times." Um, no. Big N-O, no. The pope's job is to evangelize ~ introduce people to the Lord Jesus – while upholding the faith. That means the Church isn't ever going to say, "We've changed our minds. Birth control, abortion, married priesthood, women priesthood ... all that stuff is in. Oh, and we endorse gay marriage." Her job isn't to be of this world, it's to help get her followers to heaven. She's supposed to stand for certain things, period. And while you may personally disagree with that ~ and that's okay ~ it doesn't mean she's supposed to change to suit current social norms/beliefs. She's supposed to be a spiritual haven for those whose focus is on the life beyond the temporal one. last point ... whoever keeps saying that the Catholic Church is against sexuality, even in marriage, really needs to get some more educatin' .... She teaches that sex *outside marriage* is a sin. Husbands and wives are supposed to find delight in each other and revel in their sexual relationship because it is God's gift to them, a way to unite them in ways like no other. Children are just a natural extension of that. I do understand this is the current mindset, and that (possibly pre-Vatican II) when society was more uptight, the outlook was different and we had beliefs circulating like what the one poster was saying "married Catholic couples aren't supposed to get it on, because it's *bad* ..." Thanks for explaining the above, especially the part boldened. I believe the boldened part too! My Catholic friends have never said that they need to only have sex (with their husbands) when they are trying to reproduce, but I have no idea what the official Catholic stance on it is, so thanks for explaining that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 somedude, you're cherry-picking your answers. Read Catholic.com's segment on "Nature" on your link to birth control: Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children. But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation. intellectually speaking, we know that the conditions must be prime for conception to take place: A woman must be ovulating, sperm must be viable, the environment can't be hostile ... any one of those things not in place, ain't no 'ception happening. Having sex with your spouse to create that atmosphere and intimacy, respect and love is what God intends within a marriage, even when that couple is unable to procreate for whatever reason. morally speaking, birth control does just that because it circumvents that purer relationship. Sure it means not introducing kids into the mix when you're not ready for the responsibility, but it also becomes about not respecting what your body does naturally because you "deliberately frustrate" the course of nature. a method like NFP, on the other hand, which allows a couple to plan their pregnancies, involves both husband and wife, and places them on the same page as far as making reproductive decisions – and thus keeps the relationship on the spiritual up and up. Well, that's how *I* see it! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 BTB ~ I wasn't referring to you, honest! There is a difference between someone who doesn't know/understand but is open to edification, and someone opposite that. We're all here to help each other learn, is the way I see it, and it's always heartwarming to see that growth in understanding back to Francis: He's got a hard row to hoe, but like you, I'm excited that we've got a leader who is "salt of the earth," who teaches Catholic theology by example, not whacking people over the head with intellect when something much more down to earth is needed! I think the following comment was attributed to St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel. Use words, if you must." My guess is that's exactly what our Argentine pope is gonna do. Preach without words :love: 3 Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 somedude, you're cherry-picking your answers. Read Catholic.com's segment on "Nature" on your link to birth control: Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children. But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation. intellectually speaking, we know that the conditions must be prime for conception to take place: A woman must be ovulating, sperm must be viable, the environment can't be hostile ... any one of those things not in place, ain't no 'ception happening. Having sex with your spouse to create that atmosphere and intimacy, respect and love is what God intends within a marriage, even when that couple is unable to procreate for whatever reason. morally speaking, birth control does just that because it circumvents that purer relationship. Sure it means not introducing kids into the mix when you're not ready for the responsibility, but it also becomes about not respecting what your body does naturally because you "deliberately frustrate" the course of nature. a method like NFP, on the other hand, which allows a couple to plan their pregnancies, involves both husband and wife, and places them on the same page as far as making reproductive decisions – and thus keeps the relationship on the spiritual up and up. Well, that's how *I* see it! ROFL and you say I'm cherry picking? Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Edited to add: I wanted to point out, though, that Calvin was a Protestant. So was Luther, who also condemned the spilling of seed upon the ground. So, you know. There's that. Martin Luther's Protestantism was more in the line of condeeming the Church practice of selling forgiveness and in producing Bibles in the language people knew. Not in changing all doctrines. Like Luther John Calvin was also Catholic and it would take follow on generations to look at one specific verse in the Bible. Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 All I know is that the Catholic Church is against birth control and I was trying to find out why. I'm not familiar with the Catholic church's reasoning, but I know that there are Christian groups who adhere to the "Quiverfull" movement, which is based off of Psalm 127:3-5, and basically says that children are to be viewed as a blessing. The Quiverfull interpretation says that any attempt to prohibit the creation of offspring is not in line with God's will. Not sure if this is part of their reasoning though... Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm not familiar with the Catholic church's reasoning, but I know that there are Christian groups who adhere to the "Quiverfull" movement, which is based off of Psalm 127:3-5, and basically says that children are to be viewed as a blessing. The Quiverfull interpretation says that any attempt to prohibit the creation of offspring is not in line with God's will. Not sure if this is part of their reasoning though... Nope they allow for "natural family planning" basically to reduce sexual activity to certain times in an attempt to suppress the creation of life. However anytime sexual activity is initiated, between husband and wife they are suppose to finish with his unprotected or shielded penis in her vagina to allow for the creation of life Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Are there more biblical references for this belief, in addition to Onan's story in Genesis 38:9? Quankanne, I agree with you that the Pope is not elected to cave in to society's pressures, and that the salvation of souls is really what matters! It is hard to understand the perspective of the BC argument though, when there are many Old Testament commandments that have been abolished, and there seem to be so many other crucial things to worry about. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Its the Catholic position that the Bible alone is not all that matters hence they will use the back up of writings and arguments by earlier Bishops to flesh out the one Bible story. Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm intrigued by the pope's lifestyle of simplicity. And with the nod to St. Francis of Assisi, I wonder how much of St. Francis's beliefs the new Pope will incorporate into the church. Do you think he would be able to change some of the 'pomp and circumstance' associated with the Catholic church? Pie, I think he will and can't even begin to tell you what I "saw" as he addressed the people for the first time as Pope...was just in tears... Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 BTB ~ I wasn't referring to you, honest! There is a difference between someone who doesn't know/understand but is open to edification, and someone opposite that. We're all here to help each other learn, is the way I see it, and it's always heartwarming to see that growth in understanding back to Francis: He's got a hard row to hoe, but like you, I'm excited that we've got a leader who is "salt of the earth," who teaches Catholic theology by example, not whacking people over the head with intellect when something much more down to earth is needed! I think the following comment was attributed to St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel. Use words, if you must." My guess is that's exactly what our Argentine pope is gonna do. Preach without words :love: Thank you for putting what I was feeling into words!!!!! QA- when growing up I saw many changes in the Catholic Church. LOL, I can't even remember all of them, one was was women wearing little head veils and such...remember that:) In the past few years it was rumored that the Church would change it's stand on certain major Biblical issues and that some of the Catholic Church had already followed through by springing up Churches that carried many secular views. I was soooo relieved when our previous Pope stood up and clarified many misconceptions. I was even more relieved with Pope Francis having major strong convictions and stands from the starting gate of his ministry as Pope. Oh boy does he have a lot to contend with, and many serious issues, although I've yet to find a faith or lack of faith that doesn't have people within it's confines that hasn't committed serious crimes, whether they hold an office or not. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 well, PIH ... you're going to love this: Today's news story, about the first Sunday liturgy Francis has celebrated as pope, it was reported that he delivered a SIX-MINUTE HOMILY (sermon)!!!! Well played, Papa ... well played :laugh: seriously, though, the neat thing was that he went out a side door to greet the people nearby, shaking hands, teasing little kids about being good and kissing babies. I think his style will very much be that of an "in the middle of his parish" priest, and not holding himself apart because of his office. Possibly even more so than JPII ... ROFL and you say I'm cherry picking? yes, I do, because you isolated that one phrase from your source to base your argument upon; by failing to include the rest of it in your argument, said argument is faulty. Nope they allow for "natural family planning" basically to reduce sexual activity to certain times in an attempt to suppress the creation of life. However anytime sexual activity is initiated, between husband and wife they are suppose to finish with his unprotected or shielded penis in her vagina to allow for the creation of life interesting. I've not heard it explained this way before. NFP is meant to give couples a natural means of conceiving or postponing pregnancy, in a manner that involves BOTH husband and wife, reinforcing a sense of respect and unity in their marriage, not making one "responsible" for birth control while the other freely enjoys the sex act without being engaged other than physically. I've also heard that the church encourages the joys of sex between married people, because basically, it's their reward for not indulging in pre-marital sex ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author pureinheart Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 You know, I've always questioned the BC issue, not just with Catholism, but in general. Personally either way, I believe God is in control of everything, meaning BC or not, if that child is meant to be born, it will happen. Man just "thinks" they are in control. What some of you have cited as far as the Catholic Churhes beliefs or practices of BC, I have never seen most of it. I live in a predominately Catholic/Christian area and I bet LA has a lot of Catholics too and sexual practices are/were priddy normal...now my Aunt chose not to use BC, but can't say if it was because of Catholism or not. Really, with any faith or lack of, we have to use common sense. Man likes to inject a lot, it's just simple human nature. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts