fAPs - do you feel responsible for all As?

[Decorative]

There's a semi famous Internet "letter" going around for years.

 

It describes the affair as a puzzle.

 

And the only person who sees all the pieces ? Is the cheating spouse.

 

And that's just yet another reason that affairs suck. Because reality is being distorted in multiple ways.

[Got it]

There's a semi famous Internet "letter" going around for years.

 

It describes the affair as a puzzle.

 

And the only person who sees all the pieces ? Is the cheating spouse.

 

And that's just yet another reason that affairs suck. Because reality is being distorted in multiple ways.

 

I think this might be a stretch as well. Many people don't see the end of their nose so even being "there" doesn't mean they are actually paying attention. (if that makes any sense).

[Decorative]

I think this might be a stretch as well. Many people don't see the end of their nose so even being "there" doesn't mean they are actually paying attention. (if that makes any sense).

 

If you mean at the time did my spouse see that the OW was using him for her boob job , a car, and the apartment?

 

Then I would agree.

 

But I still think that the cheating spouse has more information than the betrayed spouse and the affair partner. In general. They know what they've done with what person, and what lies .

[Got it]

No I agree. Definitely more information. Just all the information . . . that was the stretch. I guess I am also thinking of men in general. How often do you two have a long intense conversation and you both walk with a totally different understanding . . . or you have an understanding and he has no idea.

[Decorative]

No I agree. Definitely more information. Just all the information . . . that was the stretch. I guess I am also thinking of men in general. How often do you two have a long intense conversation and you both walk with a totally different understanding . . . or you have an understanding and he has no idea.

 

That's a good point. LOL

[AnotherRound]

Were you in their marriage , living in their house?

 

If not, then I would posit that you don't in fact know that there were no consequences.

 

I would say that this, too, works both ways. If you weren't in the affair, in the house while they were together, all you have to go on is what your WS says to you - and some BS seem to think that the WS does nothing but lie.

 

Everything works both ways. To assume that one way is correct and true (that the OW can know nothing of the marriage) and the other way isn't (that the BS knows everything about the affair and can judge it accurately) is dishonest, imo.

 

Why would it not work both ways? I KNOW that there are parts of my relationship with exMM that his exW has no idea about - why would she? She wasn't there - it was just he and I.

[AnotherRound]

I've never seen a BS claim they knew everything about an A their spouse was involved in - well, except to say that he/she was lying out of both sides of their mouth to both the BS and the AP. That's evident. It doesn't require any special insight to discern that.

 

Sorry - I just really notice the inconsistencies in thought on here sometimes. Not attacking your post, just pointing out that everything works both ways - everything. It does bother me when I see someone saying one thing is one way - but not acknowledging or accepting that the other could be the same way- it's illogical.

 

I know that some people need to do that to feel safer, depending on where they are in their healing. But we hear it often here - that kind of one sided you statements about the affairs that have happened - without some understanding that it truly does go both ways.

 

And, I have heard people claiming this - I think they call it 100% transparency in reconciliation. Thinking that they have enough information to judge the affair - but the OW/OM could never have enough information to judge the marriage- water will flow either way it allowed - dam it up, sure - but it's ignoring a whole lot of other possibilities.

[Owl]

And, I have heard people claiming this - I think they call it 100% transparency in reconciliation. Thinking that they have enough information to judge the affair - but the OW/OM could never have enough information to judge the marriage- water will flow either way it allowed - dam it up, sure - but it's ignoring a whole lot of other possibilities.

 

Well...here's something to consider.

 

If the BS has "enough information to judge the affair"...that's subjective, basically the BS has to have enough information that they feel that they can FORGIVE the affair.

 

Most BS's pretty much never feel like they know all that there is to know about the affair.

 

They pretty much just require enough information, and enough transparancy, to allow them to feel that their partner is NOW being honest/open enough to allow them to begin rebuilding trust in their partner after what's happened.

 

The OW/OM get what information they insist on from their affair partner...and pretty much have to do a similar thing. They have to reach a point where they believe that they've got enough information for them to feel that they trust their AP to start/continue a relationship with them.

 

I suspect that BS's feel that they "have more information" because this is typically a rock solid requirement from the WS in order to consider reconciliation...whereas they don't feel that the OW/OM have the same level of information because it doesn't appear that most REQUIRE that information, nor bother to verify the information based on other sources ('snooping'), nor do they feel that the WS has the same pressure to be honest with the OW/OM as they do with the BS with whom they're now scrambling to rebuild trust/reconcile the marriage with.

 

True or not...I can't say.

 

Just offering a viewpoint on why the different perscpectives may vary.

[Decorative]

I've never seen a BS claim they knew everything about an A their spouse was involved in - well, except to say that he/she was lying out of both sides of their mouth to both the BS and the AP. That's evident. It doesn't require any special insight to discern that.

 

Seriously. So true.

[Decorative]

Sorry - I just really notice the inconsistencies in thought on here sometimes. Not attacking your post, just pointing out that everything works both ways - everything. It does bother me when I see someone saying one thing is one way - but not acknowledging or accepting that the other could be the same way- it's illogical.

 

I know that some people need to do that to feel safer, depending on where they are in their healing. But we hear it often here - that kind of one sided you statements about the affairs that have happened - without some understanding that it truly does go both ways.

 

And, I have heard people claiming this - I think they call it 100% transparency in reconciliation. Thinking that they have enough information to judge the affair - but the OW/OM could never have enough information to judge the marriage- water will flow either way it allowed - dam it up, sure - but it's ignoring a whole lot of other possibilities.

 

Again?

 

For a psychologist ? You seem to not actually understand what reconciliation is, or what some of the basic terms mean.

 

Transparency in reconciliation means openness and honesty going forward. No more secrets. It doesn't mean a brain scan and information dump where the betrayed suddenly has perfect knowledge. It means the wayward and the betrayed agree to not hide things from each other.

 

Any betrayed spouse who claims 100% knowledge of the affair is confused. I've been on multiple infidelity boards- and I have yet to ever see a betrayed spouse claim 100% knowledge of every act in the affair. It's actually one of the reasons betrayal is so hard to accept.

 

In the future, AR, it would be awesome if you could participate on Loveshack without setting up strawmen and then knocking them down. It doesn't advance understanding or conversations.

[LFH]

I would say that this, too, works both ways. If you weren't in the affair, in the house while they were together, all you have to go on is what your WS says to you - and some BS seem to think that the WS does nothing but lie.

 

Everything works both ways. To assume that one way is correct and true (that the OW can know nothing of the marriage) and the other way isn't (that the BS knows everything about the affair and can judge it accurately) is dishonest, imo.

 

Why would it not work both ways? I KNOW that there are parts of my relationship with exMM that his exW has no idea about - why would she? She wasn't there - it was just he and I.

 

This is something I've been wanting to ask for the last several days.

I don't feel a burning need to go on every thread that any BS posts about how they know that their spouse and their ap partner did this, and this and this, and that the OW did this and that... and point out that no, that's what he told them that they don't KNOW that at all. That doesn't make it any more true than not, and yet, it's consistently done over here.

 

If I say something, it's inevitable someone will feel compelled to say, Well.. you know he can lie... so again, I say... duh? We ALL know married men can lie, there's no need to point it out, at least not on EVERY thread, so why does it need to said over and over on every thread where the OW makes any statement that she may or may not know?

[Owl]

Well...clearly others don't feel the same way that you do, LFH. Just as you don't feel the same way that they do.

 

People will post what they want, where they want, when they want, and it's only up to the moderation team to determine if it's in violation of the TOS. If it's not...it is what it is.

 

Welcome to human nature 101.

[LFH]

Well...clearly others don't feel the same way that you do, LFH. Just as you don't feel the same way that they do.

 

People will post what they want, where they want, when they want, and it's only up to the moderation team to determine if it's in violation of the TOS. If it's not...it is what it is.

 

Welcome to human nature 101.

 

ACTUALLY, clearly plenty of people feel as I do Owl, and restrain themselves frequently. Are you HONESTLY telling me that it woudlnt' be disrespectful for me to go say to people...

Well just because your husband SAID that doesn't mean it's true, after all he's a known liar...

 

Because it's the same thing.

[whichwayisup]

I've never seen a BS claim they knew everything about an A their spouse was involved in - well, except to say that he/she was lying out of both sides of their mouth to both the BS and the AP. That's evident. It doesn't require any special insight to discern that.

 

Of course the BS would have no idea what goes on in the A, but an OW or OM DOES know some of what goes on in the marriage because the WS shares that information...Maybe some of it is true, but the re-writing history is what the OW believes, thanks to the skilled MM liar. It burns me when I read that some WS's share very personal and intimate information about their BS's with an AP. Let alone the 'I don't ever have sex, my spouse is mean, abuses/ignores me/yells at me/is always mad and nagging at me' overly exaggerated lines.

[Owl]

ACTUALLY, clearly plenty of people feel as I do Owl, and restrain themselves frequently. Are you HONESTLY telling me that it woudlnt' be disrespectful for me to go say to people...

Well just because your husband SAID that doesn't mean it's true, after all he's a known liar...

 

Because it's the same thing.

 

I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful...I was saying that it's going to happen, and complaining about it won't change it...all you can do is report it if you feel it's a violation of TOS. If it's not a violation...and you can't change it...you either accept it, or find another place more suited to your preferred posting style.

[LFH]

They aren't "judging the A" with the transparency. They are judging the reconciliation. HUGE difference.

 

If an AP thinks "My MP NEVER lies to me - I know he/she never has sex with their spouse (something that is going on in the M) because he/she says so," but they are tossed under the bus on D day, isn't that a rather clear indicator that they didn't really know their MP's M like they thought they did?

And isn't it an indicator that a spouse, who would have sworn, "My beloved would never cheat on me, we have a wonderful marriage! We're having sex all the time and look at all the things we do together!" and then has it come to light that their spouse has been in an affair for months, years even in some cases a rather clear indicator that maybe they didn't know their spouse like they thought? That's all I"m saying here

 

But DURING the A they are STILL in "liar liar pants on fire" mode. In reconciliation, they may have owned up to their faults and failures as to how they approached whatever they felt was missing in their R that made them feel they needed to seek something outside the M and are now working on that, including no longer lying.

So.. if they've proven they can lie, and proven they can cheat... why does anyone suddenly believe them?

If they wanted EVERYTHING before, why would that suddenly change? They've switched from "liar liar pants on fire" mode to "Cover your A$$" mode and maybe just gotten better at it.

[Owl]

And isn't it an indicator that a spouse, who would have sworn, "My beloved would never cheat on me, we have a wonderful marriage! We're having sex all the time and look at all the things we do together!" and then has it come to light that their spouse has been in an affair for months, years even in some cases a rather clear indicator that maybe they didn't know their spouse like they thought? That's all I"m saying here

 

 

So.. if they've proven they can lie, and proven they can cheat... why does anyone suddenly believe them?

If they wanted EVERYTHING before, why would that suddenly change? They've switched from "liar liar pants on fire" mode to "Cover your A$$" mode and maybe just gotten better at it.

 

You're totally missing the point.

 

No one "suddenly believes them"!!!

 

It takes months, usually years, of repeatedly demonstrated trustworthy behavior, usually verified via other means (that evil "snooping" that everyone claims is such a horrible thing done by BS's trying to recover).

 

Take it from someone who's been there...the person who "suddenly believes them" is a rare critter indeed, and typically someone set up for false recovery. Most BS's have to relearn to trust them after the WS relearned themselves how to be trustworthy again.

[LFH]

I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful...I was saying that it's going to happen, and complaining about it won't change it...all you can do is report it if you feel it's a violation of TOS. If it's not a violation...and you can't change it...you either accept it, or find another place more suited to your preferred posting style.

 

Oh... ok. So I shouldn't question it, but it's ok for others to question it?

There was a whole thread about hypocricy recently that is making me question this.

It isn't always about reporting people or it being a "violation" of TOS.

 

I really try to be considerate if I post on infidelity because I respect the fact that people are hurting there.

People are, in many cases, hurting here too and I don't like seeing them kicked while they are down. It's about being decent to one another with the understanding that none of us have hurt anyone here.

[LFH]

Obviously. But once the A is out of the shadows, that's when the rubber hits the road.

 

 

 

Because now that the BS has told their spouse "Go! Have your OW/OM!" like Spark did, it's like a bucket of ice water in the face to the cheater. The fog clears and they realize what they stand to lose. If, in fact, they really do love their spouse. In that case, such as Spark's or Owl's or Seren's or numerous others on this site, the cheater works their TAIL off to make things right. That would include counseling, complete openness regarding e-mails, cell phones, etc.

 

During the A (lying period), NOBODY knows the WS except the WS. After the A, things become MUCH more clear. The WS leaves the M, or the WS begs to be forgiven.

 

Many things become CRYSTAL clear at that point in time.

 

And if he still wants BOTH, as is VERY OFTEN the case... and his OW isn't looking to make him make a choice, or is willing to wait or naive and gullible and he can get away with it, then he's going to keep doing the same thing.

If he can lie to screw someone else, he can pretend to beg to keep the set up he had going.

 

You DO realize that REAL reconcilation like some of these posters have been able to achieve is incredibly rare right?

[LFH]

And if the BS and AP BOTH put up with multiple D Days, then so be it. They are both free to give away their power.

 

How many of those stories are circulating on this site right now? Like... one?

And how many CURRENT reconcilations are actually going successfully? Not the people that have been here for years, but the ones that are actually trying to reconcile and it's working?

 

Not that many.

 

And I didn't say anything about multiple ddays... I only mentioned one. Not a lot of people make the same mistakes that got them caught more than once.

 

And for what it's worth I can think of 4 current posters that have had at least 2 ddays and are still together.

 

And if I'd put a little laughing face after saying not that many, it would have been really rude. just sayin

[Silly_Girl]

But DURING the A they are STILL in "liar liar pants on fire" mode. In reconciliation, they may have owned up to their faults and failures as to how they approached whatever they felt was missing in their R that made them feel they needed to seek something outside the M and are now working on that, including no longer lying.

 

Really? They are truthful, honest, open, faithful... They meet a different woman and become gas-lighting, lying, dishonest beasts. But it's okay! All is not lost! When they get found out they'll turn back in to honest, genuine folk who can be trusted. That's lucky then.

[LFH]

Really? They are truthful, honest, open, faithful... They meet a different woman and become gas-lighting, lying, dishonest beasts. But it's okay! All is not lost! When they get found out they'll turn back in to honest, genuine folk ego can be trusted. That's lucky then.

 

It's because other women are magical dontcha know...like leprauchans or something.

 

I'm glad someone sees what I am saying.

[Silly_Girl]

Nope. Please note I said "may." It's up to the WS to fix themselves.

 

Then I see your 'may'...

 

Maybe the MM is *not* in lie-mode and only tells untruths to his wife insofar as it enables him to maintain his relationship with his affair partner.

[anne1707]

Maybe the MM is *not* in lie-mode and only tells untruths to his wife insofar as it enables him to maintain his relationship with his affair partner.

 

This is pretty much what I did. I obviously lied to my H about where I was, what I was doing.

 

As for the exOM, it was more indirect with lies by omission. If he made incorrect assumptions about my husband or my marriage, I did not correct him. I did not lie to him but I did not tell him the truth either. (which I also feel about because that was not fair on him and just allowed me to continue to get what I wanted from the situation).

[Catplates]

I know of a case where the OW spiked the man's drink with huge doses of Viagra and then seduced him as she dressed up in a dominatrix outfit. Happens all the time. :laugh:

 

Surely not you Pierre:lmao: ?